Vander Blue, that is. What a performance tonight from the young man. While he hasn't been regularly clocking this many points, for my money, he's exceeding expectations thus far. Looking at our depth, I was thinking Blue would be a 8-10 mpg kind of guy, providing some defense and spark off the bench. Instead, he has put in at least 20 minutes every night, is near double-digit scoring, and has been a tenacious defender.
When people said he'd be starting by Big East play, I for one doubted he'd get there that quickly. Instead, he's started a majority of games this year already and has been quietly putting up numbers across the board. While his shot needs work, it seems like he's already made improvements at getting to the rack just in the past month. And despite a poor start at the free throw line, he has gone 8/8 from the stripe in the past 4 games.
If VB keeps improving over the course of this season, I think he might have the kind of impact by the end of the year that many of the pundits were expecting. He's certainly not all-Big East just yet, but I can't remember it being this evident watching a player get better on a weekly basis in a long time.
And in case any trolls are wondering, if a certain guard at Southern Miss had put up the statline Blue did against Texas A&M-CC tonight, he would have new career highs in points, assists, steals, and blocks. And yes, I admit that was a bit of a trolling comment myself...but it's my thread, I think I'm allowed ;D
I know some of our biggest fans think Vander isn't fit to carry DJ Newbill's suitcase but I haven't given up on him yet.
Feeling Blue never felt so good!
He can really get into the lane and finish. Keep up the great defense, working on the shot, and he's really a complete player.
Quote from: Jamil_toMU10 on December 07, 2010, 11:50:19 PM
He can really get into the lane and finish. Keep up the great defense, working on the shot, and he's really a complete player.
I feel like sometimes he looks like a deadly finisher in the lane. Last night he flashed some brilliance. Other times he looks just a little tentative around the rim and doesn't finish as strong as he should. I think it's just an adjustment thing to the speed/size of defenders at this level. Plus, with a year or two of workouts under his belt he'll probably put on some muscle and be more confident and aggressive at the tin and then we'll really see some dominance out of Vander.
Let's not go all gasser on the kid. He had a good game against a crappy opponent. His jump shot is still poor, but he does everything else very well. love the kid's potential...
He has a good short game and plays great defense. He's going to be great. However, like was said, he beat up on bad competition. If his jumpshot doesn't improve this season, though, I think he's a liability in Big East play if you know that he won't try to take a jumper.
Sometimes I am amazed at what I read on this board. Vander Blue has by many counts, exceeded expectations. He is doing things, like playing defense and rebounding well for his position, that has kept Erik Williams stapled to the bench the last two years. He has a breakout offensive game, and what do we say? Well, it was against crappy competition.
Who cares? Everyone was playing the same "crappy competition" and he was our leading scorer. He is a smart basketball player who is doing the little things necessary to earn playing time. His offense will come around...he's nine games into his freshman year for goodness sakes...
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on December 08, 2010, 06:58:40 AM
Let's not go all gasser on the kid. He had a good game against a crappy opponent.
We put up more points on TA&MCC than any team besides Texas A&M, and held them to fewer points than every team they've played besides Kansas.
TA&MCC only lost to OK St. by 10 points. They are not the worst team in the world.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 08, 2010, 07:52:40 AM
Sometimes I am amazed at what I read on this board. Vander Blue has by many counts, exceeded expectations. He is doing things, like playing defense and rebounding well for his position, that has kept Erik Williams stapled to the bench the last two years. He has a breakout offensive game, and what do we say? Well, it was against crappy competition.
Who cares? Everyone was playing the same "crappy competition" and he was our leading scorer. He is a smart basketball player who is doing the little things necessary to earn playing time. His offense will come around...he's nine games into his freshman year for goodness sakes...
+1
It dosen' matter who the competition was, if you can't see this kids ability then you are not watching closely. His defense is exceptional for anyone, much less a freshmen, He makes very few mistakes, he is silky smooth at times and is athleticism exceptional. He has exceeded my expectations and has a lot of upside.
Quote from: hairyworthen on December 08, 2010, 08:01:28 AM
+1
It dosen' matter who the competition was, if you can't see this kids ability then you are not watching closely. His defense is exceptional for anyone, much less a freshmen, He makes very few mistakes, he is silky smooth at times and is athleticism exceptional. He has exceeded my expectations and has a lot of upside.
Agreed. He has exceeded my expectations. I think the problem on this board is 90% of a player's evaluation around here is offense. Because Blue isn't shooting 45% from three and has struggled a bit at the line, people are disappointed.
I have some news everyone... 50% of a player is DEFENSE! And he is already one of our best defenders. And last night was the best offensive player as well. That is exceeding expectations in my book.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 08, 2010, 07:52:40 AM
Sometimes I am amazed at what I read on this board. Vander Blue has by many counts, exceeded expectations. He is doing things, like playing defense and rebounding well for his position, that has kept Erik Williams stapled to the bench the last two years. He has a breakout offensive game, and what do we say? Well, it was against crappy competition.
Who cares? Everyone was playing the same "crappy competition" and he was our leading scorer. He is a smart basketball player who is doing the little things necessary to earn playing time. His offense will come around...he's nine games into his freshman year for goodness sakes...
Tough to please this crowd, Sultan. You should know that by now.
Although we are playing lesser competition, you still need to do things on both ends of the floor. Yes, most of our guys are taller/faster/stronger than those we have played, but you still have to play the game.
I try to compare these "cupcake" games to playing from the women's tees in golf (as a man)....
-Yes, you have a strong advantage right out of the gate; being able to hit the ball farther (Just as MU does with their overall talent)
But, you still have to do all the little things...hit fairways/greens (play good D)...chip (rebound)...and putt (score) in order to have a good round.
Is Vander going to put up 20ppg in Big East play? NO. (but hopefully in a few years :) )
Does that take away anything from him putting up 21, 5, 4 and 2 against TAMCC. NO.
He's learning and improving everyday. And nobody can be disappointed about that.
Quote from: APieperFan3 on December 08, 2010, 08:06:12 AM
Tough to please this crowd, Sultan. You should know that by now.
Yeah obviously. :)
People on this board always seem to want the guy that is sitting on the bench. "Hey, Vander has a bad jump shot...let's put Jamail in there to hit a couple" or "Buycks is a turnover machine...let's get Williams in there. At least he can rebound."
I guess they know more than the coaches do...
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 08, 2010, 08:13:41 AM
I guess they know more than the coaches do...
That has nothing to do with it. Both posts above you are referencing (I think) state basically that Vander is great at everything but his shooting leaves a little to be desired. Also that the competition last night was not so good. Whats wrong with that? I said after the exhibition game that he should start every game and that he would be a stud and I still believe that. But this does not change the fact that TA&MCC stunk, and that his shooting needs to improve. What's the point of this board if you can't call out a default or the obvious regarding an MU player every once and awhile?
I was only able to watch about 1/4 of the game, but I saw Blue hit a jumper from the right baseline, and his form looked **better**. Was it my imagination (wishful thinking, maybe) or is his J-form improving?
I thought I saw the same thing, but the picture on TWS wasn't great. He also air mailed one of his jumpers. He still had his hitch (and low release point) on Saturday, so I'm not sure we were seeing anything other than someone playing with their mechanics. It has got to be in his head that he needs to change his form, so maybe he's just doing it now instead of waiting. If he did have a different shot to begin with and the hitch is something new, its not that difficult to see your problems on tape and work them out over a couple days of shooting. It never struck me watching his Memorial highlights that he had horrible form (no sidespin, decent rotation), just the low release point/arc.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 08, 2010, 07:52:40 AM
Sometimes I am amazed at what I read on this board. Vander Blue has by many counts, exceeded expectations. He is doing things, like playing defense and rebounding well for his position, that has kept Erik Williams stapled to the bench the last two years. He has a breakout offensive game, and what do we say? Well, it was against crappy competition.
Who cares? Everyone was playing the same "crappy competition" and he was our leading scorer. He is a smart basketball player who is doing the little things necessary to earn playing time. His offense will come around...he's nine games into his freshman year for goodness sakes...
+2
I think it's amazing how we went from being unbelievably hyped that he was coming here, to tempering expectations, to being disappointed that he wasn't putting up numbers like Newbill and Gasser, never mind that he was playing excellent defense and still averaging close to double figures in scoring.
Bottom line, he doesn't come in as heralded as a Kyrie Irving or Harrison Barnes, but he's still putting up numbers across the board and earning 20+ minutes of playing time every single night. The flashes of athleticism that we have already seen will likely become more and more frequent as he gets more experienced and grows into his role.
The kid's going to be just fine.
I want to see a similar performance by him this saturday. His motivation will be higher than ever for that game, and I think that he will break out in a way that will make MU fans very happy
Quote from: Skatastrophy on December 08, 2010, 07:56:09 AM
We put up more points on TA&MCC than any team besides Texas A&M, and held them to fewer points than every team they've played besides Kansas.
TA&MCC only lost to OK St. by 10 points. They are not the worst team in the world.
No, but they are # 261.
Before his career is finished, Blue will be in the company of a long list of great Warrior guards.
Whats different about Blue in relation to other great guards this program has seen is that he doesn't have to score to make in impact. He is option 4 at best to score night in and night out. DJO Jae and JB (and Buycks) will do most of the scoring on any given night. Blue impacts the game in a variety of ways, rebounding, steals, off the ball defense.
When McNeal was on campus he was option 2 to score. You could argue he was number 3, but James got a lot of his baskets in transition and wasn't an option coming off of screens like Novak and McNeal were.
Wardle was a scorer his whole career. Anthony Pieper didn't score right out of the gate, but he didn't defend or make an impact unless he scored the ball.
Vander impacts the game on every single possession offensively and defensively. You could argue he makes poor decisions with the ball at times, as did McNeal, but that is limited because he is option 3 or 4 on sets.
I really think the sky is the limit for Vander.
The guy is at the very least as good, if not better at this point as DJ, Matthews, and McNeal were in their freshman seasons. And I would argue that he might be as good as DJ ever was on defense RIGHT NOW. The shooting will improve, and it's probably a good sign that we're basically quibbling about ONE weakness in a freshman player's game, when the other phases are very solid right now.
Quote from: lab_warrior on December 08, 2010, 10:47:04 AM
The guy is at the very least as good, if not better at this point as DJ, Matthews, and McNeal were in their freshman seasons. And I would argue that he might be as good as DJ ever was on defense RIGHT NOW. The shooting will improve, and it's probably a good sign that we're basically quibbling about ONE weakness in a freshman player's game, when the other phases are very solid right now.
Agree with eveything you said except that DJ was pretty damn good as a freshman. In fact you could make an arguement that his freshman season was his best
Thats an interesting topic, DJs defense (senior year) vs VBs defense. On the ball stopping penetration I don't see how you can't give the nod to DJ, his pressure his senior year was amazing to watch. VB has the ability to block shots 1 on 1 where DJ, usually needed a running start. Off the ball, probably a toss up as DJ drew more charges and just knew where to be more than VB knows at this point, however VB does get his share of passing lane and double down steals.
Quote from: lab_warrior on December 08, 2010, 10:47:04 AM
The guy is at the very least as good, if not better at this point as DJ, Matthews, and McNeal were in their freshman seasons. And I would argue that he might be as good as DJ ever was on defense RIGHT NOW. The shooting will improve, and it's probably a good sign that we're basically quibbling about ONE weakness in a freshman player's game, when the other phases are very solid right now.
I would like to see Vander shut down a single BE guard first before proclaiming his defense to be better than James'. Then I would like to see Blue do it multiple times.
Also, it's early (and doesn't reflect last night, which will certainly bump up the numbers), but here are freshmen season ORtgs for the four players
James - 104.9
McNeal - 87.7
Matthews - 99.1
Blue - 89.6
Watching Blue play, you can tell the kid is a special talent...but you can also tell that he's a freshman. He has exceeded my expectations so far but still has work to do.
Many fans (not just posters on here) equate scoring points with being a good player. As others have pointed out, Vander often impacts the game without scoring a ton of points. Personally, I don't think he's ever going to be a 20ppg guy at MU, but that's not a bad thing (and I won't be upset if I'm wrong about that). I think he'll be more like Terrence Williams of L'ville in that he's a freakish athlete who will consistently fill up the stat sheet. In his final 3 collegiate seasons, Williams averaged about 12 points, 8 rebounds, 4.5 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.7 blocks. While I do expect Blue to average more points than Williams, I would not be at all disappointed if he put up similar numbers across the board.
As far as Blue's jumper, it's fixable. Very few high school players, particularly those who are as athletic as Blue, come to college with a polished jumpshot. This is in large part because they don't need it because they can get to the basket seemingly at will. Blue's shooting form is not very pretty and I think that distracts people and makes them think he's a worse shooter than he really is. What I've noticed is that he rushes his shot at times and doesn't use much touch, but that is something that will be righted with more experience. One play comes to mind last night where he made a nice move to get around his man, but then thumped a 6-footer off the backboard. He was trying to use the glass but the touch just wasn't there. As he gets more comfortable offensively, that will be a shot he hits 9 times out of 10.
I thought he was fantastic last night. Had some great looks, was good getting to the hoop, and even though he missed a couple, confidently shot the basketball.
I don't like to throw out these comparisons, but Vander is the best I have seen at getting into passing lanes since Wade was here. Watch him off the ball once on defense, he has an unreal awareness of where his man is, where the ball is, and if he can make a play on it. Very rarely does he have to really scramble back.
Offensively, for the most part he's very smart with how he drives. A lot of freshman wings will just bullrush their way to the basket. That happens every now and then, but Vander has a nice sense of where the help will be, and where there's space. A couple of times last night, he took his time, and allowed space on the opposite block to open before he went to the rim. His jumper isn't as far off as it could be. He elevates enough on it where the low release isn't a huge issue. What his problem is, is the release itself. He still has a tendency to push the ball off his palm rather than release from his fingertips. That is correctable in time.
I really hope he keeps his head on Saturday and lights the Rodents up.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 08, 2010, 12:15:29 PM
I really hope he keeps his head on Saturday and lights the Rodents up.
+1
I saw him play in the state championship game last year against Arrowhead. He had just lost out on the state player of the year award before the game. It looked like he was pressing too much trying to prove a point and he didn't have a good game. I hope that was an aberration and that the same thing doesn't happen against the Badgers.
I think the kid is a flat out stud. I remember Doc Rivers having an ugly looking jumper and he turned out pretty good. I think Blue will be a better college player than Doc ever was...after college hard to say.
Quote from: Goose on December 08, 2010, 12:42:20 PM
I think the kid is a flat out stud. I remember Doc Rivers having an ugly looking jumper and he turned out pretty good. I think Blue will be a better college player than Doc ever was...after college hard to say.
So Blue will be All America after his junior season?
Quote from: groove on December 08, 2010, 01:11:40 PM
So Blue will be All America after his junior season?
Definately has a chance.
Quote from: groove on December 08, 2010, 01:11:40 PM
So Blue will be All America after his junior season?
I hope not. Call me greedy, but I'd like to see him stay for his senior year....
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 08, 2010, 07:52:40 AM
Sometimes I am amazed at what I read on this board. Vander Blue has by many counts, exceeded expectations. He is doing things, like playing defense and rebounding well for his position, that has kept Erik Williams stapled to the bench the last two years. He has a breakout offensive game, and what do we say? Well, it was against crappy competition.
Who cares? Everyone was playing the same "crappy competition" and he was our leading scorer. He is a smart basketball player who is doing the little things necessary to earn playing time. His offense will come around...he's nine games into his freshman year for goodness sakes...
Didn't you basically say what i said? for example:
i said: "his jump shot is still poor"
you said: "his offense will come around:
i said: "he does everything else very well"
you said: "He is doing things, like playing defense and rebounding well for his position"
i said: "let's not go gasser on the kid"
you said: "he's nine games into his freshman year for goodness sakes..."
I basically said I think Vander is a wonderful basketball player who does many things well except shoot the basketball. Considering he only made 2 jumpshots all night, i would say he hasn't proven anything yet in regards to that area. Furthermore, he has had only one large point output all season, and it has come against the #261st best team in the country. Let's see him do it a few more times before I will believe he can be a consistent scorer this season. I think he has the potential to be great, but I think people need to maintain an even keel in their expectations. Remember when amoroso had a breakout game and went off for 35(?). tell me when he did that again?
Quote from: APieperFan3 on December 08, 2010, 01:16:49 PM
Definately has a chance.
He is going to be better than Lazar and the Big Three? The first all-american since Wade? You do realise that Rivers set school freshman records for points scored, points per game, field goal percentage and steals. Blue has to have more than one good game against one of the worst teams in division one before i start talking about him in the terms you are.
I believe that Blue will be All American senior year if he still is on school. Obviously he has a long way to go but he has upper end skills and a good body. Learning to shoot prettier is easy, learning to be an athlete not possible.
Quote from: groove on December 08, 2010, 03:08:34 PM
He is going to be better than Lazar and the Big Three? The first all-american since Wade? You do realise that Rivers set school freshman records for points scored, points per game, field goal percentage and steals. Blue has to have more than one good game against one of the worst teams in division one before i start talking about him in the terms you are.
Groove- he's not a lock by any means.
I think he could develop into an All American while at Marquette.
I'm not comparing him to ANY players that you have listed....b/c thats just not fair.
Perhaps I'm being too opimistic...
But I assure you, everyone else on the board hopes it happens too....!
I'm optimistic too. I was just making reference to someone saying that he was going to be better than Rivers.
I believe Jerel McNeal was second team AP All American in 2008-2009 season.