Buzz made no adjustments against the zone last night. Why not bring in a big man to give an inside presence? Why not press to speed up the game?
It would've helped if someone could make a shot to stretch the zone. Buzz knows more than me but I was hoping that he would put Jones in, just for his shooting. Only he and the staff know if Jones was ready but I recall that Jones was supposed to be a "shooter". I don't know what it would've cost us on D.
Quote from: radome on November 24, 2010, 08:55:47 AM
It would've helped if someone could make a shot to stretch the zone. Buzz knows more than me but I was hoping that he would put Jones in, just for his shooting. Only he and the staff know if Jones was ready but I recall that Jones was supposed to be a "shooter". I don't know what it would've cost us on D.
Yeah, I would have put Jones in for Buycks for a few minutes around the 12 minute mark and told him that if he had an inch of space from behind the arc to pull the trigger.
Sadly, I agree wholeheartedly with this. Typically, you draw the zone out by shooting over it. Well, we couldn't hit the ocean from the beach last night, so you have to make other adjustments. The press worked to take over against Bucknell, but it was nowhere to be seen last night. Though it helps to make shots if you want to press. Bringing in a big man seemed obvious. Was it the combination of Otule's foul trouble and Gardner's shoulder that kept them out of the game? We were far too stationary as well. One undersized guy inside, four guys standing on the perimeter. Not nearly enough motion. Last night was definitely disappointing from a coaching perspective.
Not to rain on your suck parade, but Marquette made their run in the second half against the zone. DJO and especially Jimmy started attacking the gaps and forced Gonzaga to play man the last 2 minutes of the game. That tells me they made the adjustments, its not like Mark Few said, you know the zone is really working but we're going to stop using it. Yes they struggled in the first half, but I would say the team adjusted in the second half to close the gap.
And which big man do you bring in? The ailing Gardner or Otule who had four fouls and was needed on the defensive end? Bringing in a big man to defeat a zone is the 3rd way you attack a zone, the first two being shoot out of it and drive the gaps, we tried the first and sucked, and then were pretty successful in the 2nd with the 2nd
Buzz wasn't outcoached. We didn't make our shots. Jimmy came alive and we finally beat the zone.
This thread drives me nuts:
1. Buzz drew up a play that gave DB a wide open three to tie the game with less than a minute to go. It didn't go in.
2. Buzz made adjustments to beat the zone. And no, the way to beat a zone isn't to shoot over it. That's what the defense wants you to do. You attack it. And they did that with JFB and DJO. And it worked!!!
3. Mark Few is a very, very good coach. If Buzz was outcoached in any respect, he's in good company.
4. Putting in a cold freshman to hit a three point shot makes no sense whatsoever. Jones apparently doesn't deserve to be on the floor because basketball is more than just shooting.
Quote from: mu03eng on November 24, 2010, 09:01:38 AM
Not to rain on your suck parade, but Marquette made their run in the second half against the zone. DJO and especially Jimmy started attacking the gaps and forced Gonzaga to play man the last 2 minutes of the game. That tells me they made the adjustments, its not like Mark Few said, you know the zone is really working but we're going to stop using it. Yes they struggled in the first half, but I would say the team adjusted in the second half to close the gap.
And which big man do you bring in? The ailing Gardner or Otule who had four fouls and was needed on the defensive end? Bringing in a big man to defeat a zone is the 3rd way you attack a zone, the first two being shoot out of it and drive the gaps, we tried the first and sucked, and then were pretty successful in the 2nd with the 2nd
Well said. I think that being true fanatics like most of us in this forum, made it feel as if it took forever to adjust. I need to remind myself that it is November and the team is young ... it is November and the team is young ... it is November and the team is young ... it is ...
Quote from: mu03eng on November 24, 2010, 09:01:38 AM
Not to rain on your suck parade, but Marquette made their run in the second half against the zone. DJO and especially Jimmy started attacking the gaps and forced Gonzaga to play man the last 2 minutes of the game. That tells me they made the adjustments, its not like Mark Few said, you know the zone is really working but we're going to stop using it. Yes they struggled in the first half, but I would say the team adjusted in the second half to close the gap.
And which big man do you bring in? The ailing Gardner or Otule who had four fouls and was needed on the defensive end? Bringing in a big man to defeat a zone is the 3rd way you attack a zone, the first two being shoot out of it and drive the gaps, we tried the first and sucked, and then were pretty successful in the 2nd with the 2nd
We should have been flashing Jimmy into the free throw line area the way we did with Matthews his senior year and Hayward last year. At that position, if the zone doesn't collapse then I'd take an uncontested 15 footer off the catch from Jimmy B all day. If they do collapse, then he can either put it on the floor and finish, put it on the floor and dish, or immediately kick it out to an open three point shooter. That's my preferred method of breaking a zone, and it always drove me nuts that Crean refused to do it. We weren't zonable the past two years because we were finally doing that. It made no sense that we didn't last night.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 24, 2010, 09:10:35 AM2. Buzz made adjustments to beat the zone. And no, the way to beat a zone isn't to shoot over it. That's what the defense wants you to do. You attack it. And they did that with JFB and DJO. And it worked!!!
Typically, the zone will allow you a decent number of open looks from 3-point range. If you make those, the zone has to come out further to react to the made shots. That opens lanes and makes it easier to drive and attack through the zone, which essentially breaks it. Making shots is the easiest way to attack the zone.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 24, 2010, 09:10:35 AM
This thread drives me nuts:
1. Buzz drew up a play that gave DB a wide open three to tie the game with less than a minute to go. It didn't go in.
2. Buzz made adjustments to beat the zone. And no, the way to beat a zone isn't to shoot over it. That's what the defense wants you to do. You attack it. And they did that with JFB and DJO. And it worked!!!
3. Mark Few is a very, very good coach. If Buzz was outcoached in any respect, he's in good company.
4. Putting in a cold freshman to hit a three point shot makes no sense whatsoever. Jones apparently doesn't deserve to be on the floor because basketball is more than just shooting.
Sultan, I agree with all of these points. However, we didn't start properly attacking the zone until there was too little time left. All we were doing was swinging it around the three point line for the first 12-15 minutes against the zone. That's not my preferred method of attack either, I'm just saying if that's the plan like it seemed last night, might as well go with someone who can pull the trigger. Jones couldn't have boxed out any worse. If it doesn't work after a few possessions, sit him back down.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 24, 2010, 09:19:07 AM
Typically, the zone will allow you a decent number of open looks from 3-point range. If you make those, the zone has to come out further to react to the made shots. That opens lanes and makes it easier to drive and attack through the zone, which essentially breaks it. Making shots is the easiest way to attack the zone.
The problem is you don't get good looks against a 2-3 unless you make them collapse first. You have to attack off the dribble or flash a guy to th ft line first. When it collapses, you kick out to the open man for three, and the zone is broken.
Buzz made halftime adjustments on perimeter defense as GU was lights out (our downfall this year). We gave up only 24 points and got back in the game. Everyone moaning about the second half rebounding, but there is a reason why we were out of position--and it worked. Do I wish we had some legs to grab a few more, yes...and there are adjustments and periods of experience to be had. My one ? was, where was Erik? Seemed like his athleticism could have helped us vs. GU. Is he that far removed from his great practices and earned starts not to see a minute?
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 24, 2010, 09:19:07 AM
Typically, the zone will allow you a decent number of open looks from 3-point range. If you make those, the zone has to come out further to react to the made shots. That opens lanes and makes it easier to drive and attack through the zone, which essentially breaks it. Making shots is the easiest way to attack the zone.
It's fools gold. It is indeed the easiest way to attack a zone, but it is very often the least effective. Rarely does doing the exact thing the defense wants you to do work.
Quote from: john_cocktoasten on November 24, 2010, 08:50:15 AM
Buzz made no adjustments against the zone last night. Why not bring in a big man to give an inside presence? Why not press to speed up the game?
Is is Buzz's fault the guys ca't hit jumpers????? by the way, what big man do you bring in?????
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 24, 2010, 10:13:50 AM
It's fools gold. It is indeed the easiest way to attack a zone, but it is very often the least effective. Rarely does doing the exact thing the defense wants you to do work.
Guess it's just frustration after we were so fortunate last year. Hayward could always step out and hit the three, Acker and Cubillan were reliable from range. They've been replaced by guys who don't have nearly the accuracy, which probably puts far too much pressure on DJO, and thus far, he hasn't responded well. When you have 4 guys on the court who can drill the three like that, it's much easier to shoot over the zone. Not nearly as easy this year.
The second half on the D end for rebounds was ridiculous. Can Jones and EW be worse then the 3 guards he
had in there? Buzz is to pig headed. I wonder how Buzz would coach A.I., practice, are you talking practice??
I think EW has done a nice job when he played. I would love to see a Otule or Gardner, EW and Crowder with
Butler and Cadougan. Play big for a change, it is not like DJO plays strong D, he gets lost with his man all the
time! Buycks, I think even he is disappointed with his play, he can only get better!
Quote from: elephantraker on November 24, 2010, 09:06:30 AM
Buzz wasn't outcoached. We didn't make our shots. Jimmy came alive and we finally beat the zone.
Nice... someone watched the game...
It's the coach's job to help a team create open looks. It's the players' job to knock down the open looks. We had plenty of open looks in Kansas City.
Quote from: 79Warrior on November 24, 2010, 10:14:39 AM
Is is Buzz's fault the guys ca't hit jumpers????? by the way, what big man do you bring in?????
Interesting question and there are actually several interesting answers when you think about it.
Quote from: Ready2Fly on November 24, 2010, 09:22:06 AM
The problem is you don't get good looks against a 2-3 unless you make them collapse first. You have to attack off the dribble or flash a guy to th ft line first. When it collapses, you kick out to the open man for three, and the zone is broken.
Good quick passing, switching the ball and "skipping" a man are additional ways of getting good looks, and don't necessarily collapse the defense. Rather, they try to stretch the defense and leave spaces open to guys to get to receive passes ready to shoot. Or to drive.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 24, 2010, 09:10:35 AM
This thread drives me nuts:
1. Buzz drew up a play that gave DB a wide open three to tie the game with less than a minute to go. It didn't go in.
2. Buzz made adjustments to beat the zone. And no, the way to beat a zone isn't to shoot over it. That's what the defense wants you to do. You attack it. And they did that with JFB and DJO. And it worked!!!
3. Mark Few is a very, very good coach. If Buzz was outcoached in any respect, he's in good company.
4. Putting in a cold freshman to hit a three point shot makes no sense whatsoever. Jones apparently doesn't deserve to be on the floor because basketball is more than just shooting.
I actually don't think they attacked the zone very well.
We never flashed to the foul line like we did so effectively with Hayward last year. It opens the swing to the weak side and the backdoor. Without that, the GU zone could just sit and not worry about our movement (lack thereof).
Also, the claim that Jones shouldn't be in because he's a Frosh and hasn't picked up the defense of the game doesn't hold with me when I watch our "experienced players" sit idle as GU gets three shots at a lay-up on multiple occasions.
At the least, Jones could've been a designated fouler on Arop who was eating us alive on offensive boards in the middle of the second half like he was going after the last bread pita at the canteen.
Yeah just bring in a big man and hit some shots from outside....too bad we missed all the open shots from outside and Otule had foul trouble. If you're going to criticize the coach, at least act like you watched and understood the game.
Quote from: john_cocktoasten on November 24, 2010, 08:50:15 AM
Why not press to speed up the game?
Very simple explanation, actually...you can't set up your press if you don't make a basket...
The truth is we spent all too much trying to break their zone in the 2nd half by passing the ball around the perimeter. That works only if we can hit a decent number of 3s. We didn't and never adjusted until deep into the half. We are quicker than Gonzaga yet we showed very little gap dribble penetration. It just looked to me as if the team wasn't prepared for a zone. I'm sure that will be dealt with as the weeks go on but I wasn't impressed with our adjustments.
This is another game where the opposition had too many real good looks from the perimeter during the opening half. In the end we lost by only 3 and 5 points to ranked teams. That's a good sign. This is a very young team which will get better. However, DJO needs to get his swagger and game back. We have to find someone who can threaten and score from the outside and our 28% 3 point shooting can't continue if we are to compete against strong opposition.
For those complaining about the "lack of a man flashing to the free throw line area" against the press: Do you really think Buzz forgot this offensive strategy for attacking against a zone, when it was part of our method the last 2 years? Seriously? Beyond that, we did have Jimmy flash to the free throw line area some of the time as well. Bottom line, we missed shots and did not get enough penetration early on against the zone - not till late in the 2nd half did DJO and Jimmy really start attacking the zone.
Keep in mind - this is the first zone D the team has seen all year..it is a process sometimes..
It is the coaches job to make adjustments and be ready for a zone offense. With our poor 3 point shooting this year Buzz should expect that the teams will zone us.
Basic basketball offensive strategy is to penetrate the zone and flash people through the zone. I know their big men made this difficult but you have to keep doing it so the zone breaks down. Skip passing over the zone only will work if you are hitting your outside shots.
It is still hard to believe that it took so long to get Butler attacking the zone. Buzz should have been listening to Bobby Knight.
I am really surprised that Few went back to the man
As some of the posters have said -Buzz made these adjustments last year but we also had 3 point threats.
As far as defensive rebounding, we did not box out.
The good thing it is early in the season and Buzz knows this stuff better than any of us and we should be prepared for the rest of the season.
Seems to me we missed almost all of our 10 to 12 foot shots that were open. Just wasn't falling. We will be fine. I believe all of us who picked had MU at 4-2 right now. Losing by a total of 8 points is no reason to panic, BUT it does put the pressure on even more to beat Wisconsin to have a high quality win before conference play.
Wouldnt it be nice if we could beat Wisconsin at home and steal one on the road at Vandy. That would help the old resume out bit before conference play begins.
If you attended the pro am and actually paid attention you would know that Jones is not a good three point shooter. He likes to shoot them, but I doubt that he made 25% of them in a league where defense was not a priority.
I don't think he was outcoached. I would argue we have been slightly outfoxed in our recruiting strategy...in other words we have recruited in a way that has left us vulnerable against certain styles.
I hope that Buzz addresses this in future classes.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 24, 2010, 09:47:48 PM
I don't think he was outcoached. I would argue we have been slightly outfoxed in our recruiting strategy...in other words we have recruited in a way that has left us vulnerable against certain styles.
I hope that Buzz addresses this in future classes.
we know u r a fan of the traditional player...and I won't disagree with u that this team could use use uld use a novak type of shooter...but...lets give it a little time and see how the team gels. dJo still hasn't hit his stride...buycks cam shoot it better than he has...this tram can win without being a great three point shooting team...due to How it is constructed/recruited...
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 24, 2010, 09:47:48 PM
I don't think he was outcoached. I would argue we have been slightly outfoxed in our recruiting strategy...in other words we have recruited in a way that has left us vulnerable against certain styles.
In what way? I have absolutely no understanding of what you mean here. This team aint losing to North Dakota State for instance.
Quote from: Ners on November 24, 2010, 11:41:21 PM
we know u r a fan of the traditional player...and I won't disagree with u that this team could use use uld use a novak type of shooter...but...lets give it a little time and see how the team gels. dJo still hasn't hit his stride...buycks cam shoot it better than he has...this tram can win without being a great three point shooting team...due to How it is constructed/recruited...
We'll have to see how things play out
Last year MU thrived a lot on offense because of good three point shooting, yet when being recruited, Acker, Coobie, and Lazar weren't brought in mainly because they were great perimeter shooters. I didn't remember either a bunch of predictions before last year started which stated that DJO would lead the Big East in three point shooting.
Except for cases of kids who were already great jump shooters in high school, it can often take some time for for young players to become consistent or at least fairly consistent perimeter shooters. It might be a weakness this season, but hopefully with such a young roster, going forward the perimeter shooting becomes a strength again as those young guys mature as overall players and shooters.
I don't think Buzz was out coached when he kept his team in the game against the NCAA champs and #1 team in the nation and another top 25 team. How good a coach he is will be determined by how his team learns and develops throughout the year from these losses:
Can he get Otule to box out the rest of the year now that he has been beaten by two of the best centers in the country?
Can he get 9 guys used to playing with each other vs the 6 or 7 he had last year?
Can he get DJO to remember how to shoot like last year and not lose his shooting confidence the way Dominic James did?
Can he get Jimmy Butler to put the team on his shoulders when they are struggling?
Quote from: MARQEVANS on November 25, 2010, 10:54:22 AM
I don't think Buzz was out coached when he kept his team in the game against the NCAA champs and #1 team in the nation and another top 25 team. How good a coach he is will be determined by how his team learns and develops throughout the year from these losses:
Can he get Otule to box out the rest of the year now that he has been beaten by two of the best centers in the country?
Can he get 9 guys used to playing with each other vs the 6 or 7 he had last year?
Can he get DJO to remember how to shoot like last year and not lose his shooting confidence the way Dominic James did?
Can he get Jimmy Butler to put the team on his shoulders when they are struggling?
good points...think we did at least see jimmy take over the gonzaga game...and duke games down the stretch. I was actually really impressed by his game..and how much it has grown since first arriving at MU
If DJO can get his stroke back, and Otule/Gardner/Butler/Crowder can consistently box out on rebounds, we should be all right.
Right now, those are our two biggest problems, along with going with the correct PG.
At least two of those problems need coaching. Not sure about DJO, he may be pressing too much.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 24, 2010, 11:41:39 PM
In what way? I have absolutely no understanding of what you mean here. This team aint losing to North Dakota State for instance.
We have a lot of slashers on this team. Ver quick, high fliers, athletic types. Poses all kinds of problems for certain teams. However, we lack in other areas, like quality shooters, which are also needed.
It reminds me of a football analogy when teams were running the old Run and Gun spread offenses exclusively and couldn't beat teams in certain situations when they needed 2 yards because they had no tight ends on the team.
The Big East and college basketball in general is a variety of styles offensively and defensively. We need to have players and capabilities to thwart those varying styles. I'm not sure we do at this point, but the good news is we have some time to work on this. The shooting and guard play in general do worry me very much...I said as much in my predictions of CS....I was (and remain) concerned with DB at point due to turnovers. The inability to consistently hit from the outside remains.
Let's hope Buzz and the staff can get that fine tuned.
I think this is a good team. I'm not on board with some here that said we would be an elite or very good team prior to the season starting. I still believe in that position but would love to be proven wrong.