Notre Dame is keeping silent about a St Mary's student who killed herself after she claimed a football player sexually assaulted her.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-notre-dame-story-20101121,0,3185959.story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-met-notre-dame-story-20101121,0,3185959.story)
Wow. Can't hide that forever...just like a priest.
So did Notre Dame just transfer the football player to another catholic institution?
I'm sorry, but this "story" stinks and I don't think it's the ND football program that is responsible for the odor. Say what you want about them, but they're not going to allow a rapist on the field. There's nothing here.
The part that "stinks" is that Notre Dame police still haven't filed a report with the legit police department despite the alleged sexual assault happening months ago. Don't you think an accusation as severe as sexual assault should be turned in to an actual police department?
In the Declan Sullivan case, ND's Athletic director tried to cover his ass by saying there was a strong gust of wind that came out of nowhere. That's really strange considering the entire midwest was hit with huge gusts of wind all day. They have tried to cover their ass with lies before over the death of a student, how do we know they aren't doing it again by not turning it over to the legit police?
During his conference call, Brian Kelly was asked about the incident by a tribune reporter. Kelly decided to repined with a joke about how the Tribune is bankrupt. Real classy Notre Dame.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on November 22, 2010, 05:50:53 AM
The part that "stinks" is that Notre Dame police still haven't filed a report with the legit police department despite the alleged sexual assault happening months ago. Don't you think an accusation as severe as sexual assault should be turned in to an actual police department?
In the Declan Sullivan case, ND's Athletic director tried to cover his ass by saying there was a strong gust of wind that came out of nowhere. That's really strange considering the entire midwest was hit with huge gusts of wind all day. They have tried to cover their ass with lies before over the death of a student, how do we know they aren't doing it again by not turning it over to the legit police?
During his conference call, Brian Kelly was asked about the incident by a tribune reporter. Kelly decided to repined with a joke about how the Tribune is bankrupt. Real classy Notre Dame.
I cannot stand ND, but for whom are they trying to "cover their ass" over the death of Sullivan? The family hasn't been screaming from the rooftops. It was an inexcusable and completely avoidable death, but what do you think they're covering up? I think it's still be investigated, actually.
And don't you think it's possible that this rape allegation was 100 percent fabricated? I certainly do. Sorry...no way do I think ND would let this happen. Don't you think a wrongfully accused rapist has rights, too? Being an accused rapist is almost as bad as being an actual rapist in the court of public opinion.
PRN, Tall Titan is right here. The issue is that the University Police should have moved this up to the county officials like pretty much every university police squad does in cases of serious crimes. At worse, this thing has an appearance of conflict of interest that could have easilly been avoided.
PRN, my initial thought was that the alligation was fabricated and the girl killed herself when she got caught in a lie.
But then I saw that Notre Dame police never turned the sexual assult report over to the real authorities. Why would they do that? Even after the suicide they still haven't filed a sexual assult report with the local police department. Why is that?
It's still possible my inital thought was correct, but Notre Dame is making it look like something very shady is going on.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 22, 2010, 08:00:58 AM
I cannot stand ND, but for whom are they trying to "cover their ass" over the death of Sullivan? The family hasn't been screaming from the rooftops. It was an inexcusable and completely avoidable death, but what do you think they're covering up? I think it's still be investigated, actually.
The athletic director's statement was that everything was fine except for one extraordinary gust of wind that took down the lift. They are trying to make it seem like the wind was a freak occurance that noone could have seen coming.
Everyone in the midwest knew there were wind gusts of 50 mph or more all day long. They should have known not to put a kid 60 feet in the air on a lift.
and for what its worth the family hasn't made a public issue of this, but they have privately hired a formal federal prosecutor to look into the University's conduct after their daughter reported the sexual assault.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on November 22, 2010, 08:48:57 AM
The athletic director's statement was that everything was fine except for one extraordinary gust of wind that took down the lift. They are trying to make it seem like the wind was a freak occurance that noone could have seen coming.
Everyone in the midwest knew there were wind gusts of 50 mph or more all day long. They should have known not to put a kid 60 feet in the air on a lift.
I agree with everything you said. The ADs comments were an embarrassment. I was nervous just walking down the street that day...falling tree limbs, et. al. I just don't think they're truly trying to cover it up. I think the entire ND community is still in a state of shock over that. And again, I cannot stand ND.
But I think in the case of this tragic suicide, the university has its hands tied as they don't want to comment on this allegation (and rightfully so) because whatever they say will be deemed insensitive or inappropriate. They literally cannot comment at all. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. And suspending this player, as is suggested in the Chicago Tribune today, would be convicting the player. I don't know how to handle this situation, but I don't see anything alarming. Maybe that's just me.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 22, 2010, 10:01:15 AM
I agree with everything you said. The ADs comments were an embarrassment. I was nervous just walking down the street that day...falling tree limbs, et. al. I just don't think they're truly trying to cover it up. I think the entire ND community is still in a state of shock over that. And again, I cannot stand ND.
But I think in the case of this tragic suicide, the university has its hands tied as they don't want to comment on this allegation (and rightfully so) because whatever they say will be deemed insensitive or inappropriate. They literally cannot comment at all. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. And suspending this player, as is suggested in the Chicago Tribune today, would be convicting the player. I don't know how to handle this situation, but I don't see anything alarming. Maybe that's just me.
PRN, I agree with you with the only exception, they absolutely should have turned the charges over to a higher police authority and the fact that they didn't is absolutely alarming. There is no reason to avoid giving it to a "real" police force to investigate and the fact that they didn't makes it look very shady as TallTitan said. It doesn't make sense from a PR standpoint let alone a legal and moral standpoint.
I agree with you PRN that the player shouldn't be suspended because charges haven't been brought on him....... but how can charges be brought on him when the University hasn't filed a report.
Notre Dame's Response:
Notre Dame will never be silent or passive when it comes to the careful, thorough and fair determination of whether or not laws or university policies have been broken on our campus. This is an important obligation and one that we take very seriously. We have a longstanding, effective and consistent process in place that gathers information, eliminates rumors and makes informed, fact-based determinations, all while adhering to university policies and the federal student privacy laws that restrict us from discussing specific disciplinary cases.
In addition, it is important to note that the Notre Dame Security Police Department is a fully authorized police agency that works closely and collaboratively with local law enforcement agencies, including the St. Joseph County Prosecutor's Office. All investigations of sexual assault are forwarded to the prosecutor's office so that action, if warranted, can be taken.
"Cmooooooooon. Trust us, we're good guys. Why wouldn't you trust us to do the right thing?"
- Notre Dame
Quote from: MUBurrow on November 22, 2010, 08:36:43 PM
"Cmooooooooon. Trust us, we're good guys. Why wouldn't you trust us to do the right thing?"
- Notre Dame
Sounds like they followed their protocol. According to them they did nothing out of the ordinary, so unless you can confirm ND is doing something they don't usually do, not sure how they are covering up.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 22, 2010, 08:39:09 PM
Sounds like they followed their protocol. According to them they did nothing out of the ordinary, so unless you can confirm ND is doing something they don't usually do, not sure how they are covering up.
Did they???
QuoteAll investigations of sexual assault are forwarded to the prosecutor's office so that action, if warranted, can be taken.
Quote from: MUBurrow on November 22, 2010, 08:53:51 PM
Did they???
They did forward information to the prosecution's office as they say.
Obviously the prosecutor hasn't found enough there yet to charge anyone. The poor girl died in September and obviously this case was investigated before then.
I know you want us all to get pitch forks on a whim but sometimes it's better to listen to both sides and look at it from both sides and all angles before acting all enraged like we know the story.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on November 22, 2010, 05:50:53 AM
The part that "stinks" is that Notre Dame police still haven't filed a report with the legit police department despite the alleged sexual assault happening months ago. Don't you think an accusation as severe as sexual assault should be turned in to an actual police department?
In the Declan Sullivan case, ND's Athletic director tried to cover his ass by saying there was a strong gust of wind that came out of nowhere. That's really strange considering the entire midwest was hit with huge gusts of wind all day. They have tried to cover their ass with lies before over the death of a student, how do we know they aren't doing it again by not turning it over to the legit police?
During his conference call, Brian Kelly was asked about the incident by a tribune reporter. Kelly decided to repined with a joke about how the Tribune is bankrupt. Real classy Notre Dame.
The Notre Dame Police Department
is the legit police force in these circumstances. It is a certified police force with sworn officers who have the exact same authorities as the South Bend police or the local county sheriff. And, given that Notre Dame is an unincorporated community - not within South Bend's borders - Notre Dame police hold jurisdiction in any crime occurred on campus. They are the local and legitimate police here.
Like PRN, I hate Notre Dame. But I'm not going to rip them without knowing any facts of this incident, nor will I rip them with incorrect facts (i.e. for not contacting a "legit" police force when they have). For all we know, Notre Dame has investigated this and found credible exculpatory evidence clearing the accused.
As for the rest, Kelly is an idiot. But Notre Dame really hasn't done anything wrong in the Declan Sullivan thing ... after the kid's death, I mean. To the contrary, the school's president has publicly accepted blame for the death. Not sure what else you want, short of firing Kelly.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 22, 2010, 08:57:11 PM
I know you want us all to get pitch forks on a whim but sometimes it's better to listen to both sides and look at it from both sides and all angles before acting all enraged like we know the story.
yeah thats fair to assume. considering that all the uproar was over the NDPD allegedly not forwarding anything to higher authorities, I think its a fair question to trace what really happened.
Somebody owes ND an apology......
Beautiful girl, depression is a serious disease.
http://www.southbendtribune.com/article/20101123/News01/311239997/-1/XML (http://www.southbendtribune.com/article/20101123/News01/311239997/-1/XML)
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 23, 2010, 07:40:08 AM
Somebody owes ND an apology......
Beautiful girl, depression is a serious disease.
http://www.southbendtribune.com/article/20101123/News01/311239997/-1/XML (http://www.southbendtribune.com/article/20101123/News01/311239997/-1/XML)
Did you read the article? The county detective assigned to the case didn't know about the assault allegation until "a couple of days" after the suicide. I'm not calling for pitch forks, but I think its worth investigating who knew what and when. I just think this fits into the pattern of lack of institutional control at Notre Dame, and a propensity to not take the moral high road.
Quote from: Stone Cold on November 22, 2010, 08:57:11 PM
They did forward information to the prosecution's office as they say. Obviously the prosecutor hasn't found enough there yet to charge anyone. The poor girl died in September and obviously this case was investigated before then.
I know you want us all to get pitch forks on a whim but sometimes it's better to listen to both sides and look at it from both sides and all angles before acting all enraged like we know the story.
The article says they passed info onto the prosecutor but implies it was given after the suicide. It took them more than 10 days to pass information onto a prosecutor to decide how to move forward? Again, I don't know that anything untoward is happening at ND with this stuff, but I think there is enough smoke to make it legit to search for fire.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 22, 2010, 09:10:27 PM
As for the rest, Kelly is an idiot. But Notre Dame really hasn't done anything wrong in the Declan Sullivan thing ... after the kid's death, I mean. To the contrary, the school's president has publicly accepted blame for the death. Not sure what else you want, short of firing Kelly.
First of all, ND's negligence led to Sullivan's death so not doing anything wrong after the fact would be inconsequential. Second, if you really don't think ND did anything wrong after the tragedy, read the AD's comments. He was in full CYA mode and showed very little sympathy.
Quote from: mu03eng on November 23, 2010, 07:57:54 AM
Did you read the article? The county detective assigned to the case didn't know about the assault allegation until "a couple of days" after the suicide. I'm not calling for pitch forks, but I think its worth investigating who knew what and when. I just think this fits into the pattern of lack of institutional control at Notre Dame, and a propensity to not take the moral high road.
Just so we're clear, there's no reason for Notre Dame to have told the county detective about the assault allegation any sooner. Essentially, what they're being ripped for here would be like criticizing the Chicago PD for not informing the Cook County Sheriff's Department of a crime. The ND police have jurisdiction over the case. They have no obligation - nor would it be standard procedure - for them to inform other police agencies every time a complaint is filed.
As far as I can tell ND followed their prescribed procedures for handling sexual assault cases. Unless you can tell me how they didn't, I'm not willing to think ill of them in this instance. ND essentially has their own police authority and detectives.
Quote from: Pakuni on November 23, 2010, 08:18:34 AM
Just so we're clear, there's no reason for Notre Dame to have told the county detective about the assault allegation any sooner. Essentially, what they're being ripped for here would be like criticizing the Chicago PD for not informing the Cook County Sheriff's Department of a crime. The ND police have jurisdiction over the case. They have no obligation - nor would it be standard procedure - for them to inform other police agencies every time a complaint is filed.
I concede the point, you are correct, ND need not report it to the local county sheriff. Ultimately my point is that the article implies they didn't pass information onto the prosecutor any faster than they passed it onto the sheriff. 10-12 days to get information to a prosecutor is a long time, and only got there when it did because the suicide presumably sped up the process.
Again, I'm not saying ND did anything wrong, but it does need to be investigated because I think there is a larger pattern of control issues there.
Quote from: mu03eng on November 23, 2010, 08:00:50 AM
The article says they passed info onto the prosecutor but implies it was given after the suicide. It took them more than 10 days to pass information onto a prosecutor to decide how to move forward? Again, I don't know that anything untoward is happening at ND with this stuff, but I think there is enough smoke to make it legit to search for fire.
What's the usual time frame for notifying prosecution? It sounds like 10 days before the death, she accused, then you need to conduct an investigation, should a report have been passed on before that, I don't know. I think a lot of people don't know but are making assumptions anyway.
It just goes to show that depression is a serious and very real condition, never to be taken lightly. Also, the thought that someone would kill herself as a way to escape a lie is downright heinous. So many women get attacked and many never tell anyone. sorry menfolk, maybe you have been done wrong in the past, but i'm pretty sure the only time you'd worry about being assaulted is while behind bars. the vast majority of women reporting these kinds of events are probably not lying about it, much less some highly involved church-going college girl who was bound for an RN degree.
http://jezebel.com/5703316/prosecutor-speaks-out-on-notre-dame-rape-coverup
So very sad.
However, it is my understanding that ND police *did* notify St. Joseph's County officials contrary to the initial report in the Tribune.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 01, 2010, 02:37:18 PM
So very sad.
However, it is my understanding that ND police *did* notify St. Joseph's County officials contrary to the initial report in the Tribune.
Correct, but everything I've seen is they did so after this tragic event occurred. Suspicious timing at best.
Quote from: mu03eng on December 01, 2010, 04:48:12 PM
Correct, but everything I've seen is they did so after this tragic event occurred. Suspicious timing at best.
Really it isn't.
Hate to rely on the old "Law and Order" intro ... but police investigate the crime, district attorneys prosecute. Police don't go running to the prosecutors office every time someone makes a complaint, especially not before the complaint is fully investigated.
It's very much standard procedure for police in a case of this nature to compile all the evidence they can, and then take the entire case to the prosecutor's office for a decision whether or not to charge.
You know what would have happened had police gone to the prosecutor right after the complaint was filed? The prosecutor would have told them to go onvestigate and come back with some evidence.
I have no clue whether a cover up happened here or not. But based on what I know of the criminal justice system (no, not as a defendant), nothing all that unusual here.
The issue isn't prosecution. The county has a sex assault unit just for these cases. The municipalities agreed to its creation.
why was chico's reading jezebel.com??? ?-(
lookin more and more like Rosie every day. 8-)
Quote from: ZiggysF*ckinFryBoy on December 01, 2010, 09:56:27 PM
why was chico's reading jezebel.com??? ?-(
lookin more and more like Rosie every day. 8-)
To be fair, it was written by Jezebel but was also posted on Deadspin.
Quote from: marqptm on December 01, 2010, 09:59:18 PM
To be fair, it was written by Jezebel but was also posted on Deadspin.
Actually, it was written by an attorney for his website (http://rogercanaff.com) and republished by Jezebel. I know very, very little about what happened in the case of Lizzy Seeberg, but the author of that "letter" doesn't either. He admits as much in the comments when he was called out by a detective for some of the things he said (particularly that he, as a prosecutor, would have had "much to go on" to prove the case). Without reviewing anything more than news reports (which have virtually no information about the facts of the case) he assumes the allegations are true because she reported promptly, she had no motive to lie and most reports of this nature are true.
It's a terrible tragedy, and I pray for this girl and her family. I have no idea whether the allegations are true or not because I have so little information. I'm sure that ND (and MU and any other college) has many allegations of sexual assault, and I simply do not know if this one was handled differently than others by the NDPD. I'm not even sure of the nature or severity of the assault because I've read at least one column that specifically states that she was not raped. For all I know, the allegation is that she was groped. I'm not justifying that or defending it in any way whatsoever, and I'm not suggesting that it is not an assault, but I'm not sure that such an allegation typically would be turned over to a prosecutor's office or an SVU.
Over the years, I've seen ND athletes get in trouble for things that probably could have been covered up. Frankly, I've read in newspapers about things that ND athletes did that are similar to things that MU athletes allegedly have done that are not publicized and are only spoken of in hushed tones on this board. I'm not naive enough to think that ND is above a cover-up, but I'm also not convinced that that happened here. I'm not saying that they didn't, but I don't have enough information for me to come to that conclusion.
Here is the parents account of the story, detailing Notre Dame's lack of effort in investigating the case.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-notre-dame-seeberg-20101216,0,4567999.story?page=1 (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-notre-dame-seeberg-20101216,0,4567999.story?page=1)
Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 16, 2010, 09:37:48 AM
Here is the parents account of the story, detailing Notre Dame's lack of effort in investigating the case.http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-notre-dame-seeberg-20101216,0,4567999.story?page=1 (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-notre-dame-seeberg-20101216,0,4567999.story?page=1)
No matter what your personal beliefs in the case are you have to admit that was a very well written story. Thoroughly researched, explained and detailed. Definitely worth taking the 10 minutes to read it
It's amazing that the girls parents had to ask police to investigate basic things such as cell phone records.
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/12/no-charges-in-alleged-notre-dame-attack.html
No charges. Prosecutors say, among other things, her account didn't mesh with known facts and, for obvious reasons, there is no complaining witness to testify.
And, forgive me if I come off as an ogre here, but what we're talking about here is, at worst, a guy copping a feel above the waist when the girl didn't want that. Wrong? Possibly. Criminal? Possibly. Rape? No.
The girl's death is a tragedy, and I certainly don't blame her parents for being angry. But I don't quite see this as the scandal so many want it to be. Girl says guy grabbed her chest. Guy, very likely, says he didn't. No witnesses, no physical injury, no physical evidence. Exactly what would you expect the cops and prosecutors to do?
+1 on the article being well done. given the sensitivity of the issues here, I've poured over this post for awhile, but i think this story really does warrant a look at ND culture.
The article emphasizes the generational value of ND to this family, and I think thats important because it reflects the remarkable deference that ND is accustomed to receiving that other institutions aren't afforded. This is aside from the admittedly tenuous connection between the alleged sexual assault and the young woman's death, but instead to look at the lack of institutional transparency, and prima facie credence ND has.
According to this account, the victim reported the claim on September 1. The first action from the University was to contact the alleged assailant's friend, and tell him not to bring the football team into this matter. Not until September 15 did the University even approach the player, 5 days after the young woman's death.
It seems fairly clear from this timeline, and the other 'miscommunications' between ND police and investigators, that ND did not want to know what happened. I'm not saying they are responsible for this girl's death, or even that in the end the player should be suspended, etc. But instead, it seems fairly obvious that they did not pursue this claim with rigor - especially considering that their first contact was with the player's friend for implicating the football team, and that it is impossible to know if an investigation would have taken place had the young woman not pressed the issue/passed away.
While this malaise may exist in other sporting power institutions, the mission that ND claims has built up its 'atmosphere unlike any other' is inherently undermined by this, as it was by the President's statement after Declan Sullivan's death. But over the years, they have built up such an impenetrable shield of support, they are ironically no longer held to the same standards of other institutions. Even in his statements, the young woman's father is careful to label ND as a great institution. But are they still really earning that label, or are they getting by on their laurels?
Essentially no charges are being filed because the girl is dead and she can't defend herself in court.
The girl sounds like she was pretty messed up before this even happened, so while it may just seem like a guy copping a feel to you, it may have really messed this girl up, to the point of her killing herself.
Say it did happen? The girl talks to authorities who do little to nothing to investigate. She then recieves a text message saying not to mess with Notre Dame football. That could have been enough to push her over the edge.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 16, 2010, 02:23:31 PM
Essentially no charges are being filed because the girl is dead and she can't defend herself in court.
That's not exactly true. Even had the girl not taken her own life, this case was going nowhere. No witnesses, no physical evidence, no physical injury and a complaining witness with a history of mental illness. The circumstances ooze reasonable doubt.
That's not to say what she's making this up. For all I know, it happened exactly as she said it did. But no prosecutor in his right mind files charges under these circumstances. The totality of the evidence comes from a single witness who any objective jury would see as unreliable.
QuoteThe girl sounds like she was pretty messed up before this even happened, so while it may just seem like a guy copping a feel to you, it may have really messed this girl up, to the point of her killing herself.
Nobody's disputing that. What's in dispute, however, is a) whether a crime occurred and b) whether anyone did anything inappropriate in investigating her complaint. Keep in mind, you've only heard what her parents want you to know. I'm not suggesting they're lying to you, but they obviously have an agenda driven by their understandable anger and pain about the situation and they're only releasing the information they want out there. The only people who've heard both sides, i.e. the cops and prosecutors, each decided in relatively short order that there was no reason to pursue this further.
QuoteShe then recieves a text message saying not to mess with Notre Dame football. That could have been enough to push her over the edge.
A text message from an acquaintance, not the university. When the university learned of the texts, it told the kid to knock it off... which any law enforcement agency would do in that situation.
Regardless, it's tragic that this girl took her life. It's also apparent that she had significant issues well before this incident, so trying to blame Notre Dame for her death is like blaming the financial meltdown on the last family to get a subprime mortgage in the summer of 2008.
Quote from: MUBurrow on December 16, 2010, 01:56:44 PM
The article emphasizes the generational value of ND to this family
I'd like to suggest the family look in the mirror as a result of this "generational value." Do you think the family was overly impressed with football players? If they're like most creepy ND fans, I certainly do. Perhaps generational value contributed to this situation?
Notre Dame and their alums are about as creepy as it gets, if you ask me.
This girl went to St.Mary's college.
Press Release from St. Joe's county prosecutor
http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2010-12/272335660-16095122.pdf (http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2010-12/272335660-16095122.pdf)
Quote from: Stone Cold on December 16, 2010, 03:26:57 PM
Press Release from St. Joe's county prosecutor
http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2010-12/272335660-16095122.pdf (http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2010-12/272335660-16095122.pdf)
That press release from the county prosecutor (not Notre Dame) gets to the issue I asked about a couple of weeks ago. The player was accused of touching her breasts. I hope we can all agree that it's inappropriate for a man to touch a woman's breasts against her will, and can further agree that in many cases it is a crime. But for those who lambasted ND for not immediately turning this over to the county prosecutor or an SVU, I doubt similar allegations would typically be turned over to those agencies. I suspect that until this poor girl's tragic suicide, this allegation got about the same attention as other similar allegations -- very, very little. We can all debate whether that is an appropriate level of response to an allegation of this nature, but I honestly don't think this had much to do with the football team. It's the aftermath that makes this such a tragic case, but I suspect that this report wasn't even in the top ten most serious issues reported to the NDPD that day. I don't say this to minimize what happened, and I really am saddened by what happened to this poor child and pray for her family.
Explain this Pakuni......
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/17/lizzy-seebergs-family-feels-violated-notre-dame-football-star/ (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/17/lizzy-seebergs-family-feels-violated-notre-dame-football-star/)
QuoteNotre Dame's general counsel, Marianne Corr, had this message for them: "I hope the Seebergs know how bad this could get for them'' if they ever went public.
QuoteThe accused, a star whom head coach Brian Kelly has publicly praised in interviews both before and after Lizzy's death, has a history of behavior problems that continued even after he was recruited by Notre Dame; he was suspended during his senior year in high school for throwing a desk at a teacher who'd taken away his cell phone
QuoteHe was expelled from middle school in the 7th grade for threatening a girl.
QuoteHe had picked up a girl in their class and thrown her -- tossed her like you'd toss a piece of paper. He was bigger than everybody else, and violent.
It's not even a he said she said because they didn't even talk to him until 15 days after the incident! How do they know what his version of events was?
Also that article says not only did the player cop a feel but he threw her.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 17, 2010, 02:11:25 PM
Explain this Pakuni......
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/17/lizzy-seebergs-family-feels-violated-notre-dame-football-star/ (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/12/17/lizzy-seebergs-family-feels-violated-notre-dame-football-star/)
It's not even a he said she said because they didn't even talk to him until 15 days after the incident! How do they know what his version of events was?
The article posted recently was much better written than this. That quote from ND's general counsel is awful -- but unfortunately, the author doesn't make clear whether it's an actual quote (i.e., the actual words used by the ND General Counsel) or whether it's the Seeberg's attorney's characterization of what was said by ND's General Counsel. I suspect the latter. It looks bad in either instance, but as a reader, I shouldn't have to wonder.
Looking at it again, it's also odd where the quotation ends and what is added after after the quote. I'm not defending ND, but the way that sentence is written is both ambiguous (i.e., who is supposedly speaking those words) and odd (i.e., the most incriminating part coming after the quotes).
Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 17, 2010, 02:11:25 PM
Explain this Pakuni......
Explain what, exactly? That the anonymous "mother of a former classmate of the accused" (now that's some reputable reporting) said this kid was a bully in 5th grade? Well, sheesh, that
must make him a rapist.
Yes, the article did claim (contrary to what the St. Joseph County prosecutor reported) that he "threw her
off" him to answer a cell phone. Even if true, doesn't that run a bit contrary to the notion that this guy was some kind of crazed, violent rapist? Fortunately, I have no experience with crazed, violent rapists, but I'd be surprised if they often halt mid-rape to answer the phone.
I just don't understand what you'd expect the university to do here. You've got a non-student with a longstanding history of mental illness making an unprovable allegation against a student. Should they expel the accused based on that? Kick him off the football team? Arrest him?
As I've said repeatedly, it's possible this kid did something wrong. Or it's possible that a troubled young lady had an unpleasant encounter and decided to call it rape. But to the best of my knowledge, we don't - or at least we strive not to - arrest/charge/punish people based on accusations alone.
Or does due process not count of football players at Notre Dame?
Why did they wait 15 days to talk to him?
Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 17, 2010, 03:16:17 PM
Why did they wait 15 days to talk to him?
They waited 15 days to talk to him because it appears that the sum total of her allegation was that he grabbed her breast against her will and stopped when his phone rang. Was in inappropriate? Absolutely (assuming it happened -- and I
do believe it happened). Did it scare her or make her uncomfortable? Apparently (she reported her level of fear was a seven on a scale of 1-10).
But did it warrant dropping everything else they might have been working on and rushing out to conduct an investigation? It would have to be a pretty slow night on a college campus for this to be at the top of the campus police "To Do" list. I even suspect that they might never have investigated it if the girl had not committed suicide. And I' not convinced that it had anything to do with the fact that the kid was a football player. I just suspect that cops who are running around breaking up parties, dealing with underage drinking, drugs, theft, etc., don't make it a priority to investigate an allegation that a boy grabbed a girl's breast. I am not defending this response (or lack thereof), but I suspect that many police departments when receiving an allegation of this nature would respond with, "really? That's it?" It was only when she killed herself when someone said, "Oh crap, this looks really bad. We need to get on this." And
that's why they waited 15 days. As the father of three daughters, I would hope that wherever they end up in college, if they make a similar allegation it will receive prompt attention. If it doesn't, I will certainly raise hell and I don't blame the family for doing so. But, unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't take it as seriously as I do.
Again, I'm not defending this. But I am guessing (admittedly,
guessing) that this is more or less the same response that this allegation would get in many places. And maybe ND should be faulted for that. I just really don't think it had anything to do with the fact that it was a football player involved.
Where ND really screwed up is in failing to reach out to the family. Even if they believed that they did things 100% correctly in the investigation, a little human compassion would have gone a long way in this case.
Alright I will give you that, but don't you think talking to him would to move to the top of the list once the girl killed herself? It took another five days after her death to talk to him.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 17, 2010, 03:56:00 PM
Alright I will give you that, but don't you think talking to him would to move to the top of the list once the girl killed herself? It took another five days after her death to talk to him.
Absolutely. I'm sure that once they received word that she killed herself, the proverbial s%#t hit the fan. I have no idea how quickly they got that news. I also would guess that once that happened, talking to their lawyers/bosses actually was at the top of the list.
They did try to reach him on September 9 (the day before the suicide) and apparently on September 13. They finally got him on the 15th. Too slow? Perhaps. Unusually slow? I have no idea.
I don't know. I just think ND took their time investigating because it was a star player and probably wouldn't have at all had the girl not killed herself.
I don't think the guy should be jailed or anything. I just think with his history they should have at least talked to him. My beef isn't with the player getting punished, it's how they handled it.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on December 17, 2010, 04:04:47 PM
Absolutely. I'm sure that once they received word that she killed herself, the proverbial s%#t hit the fan. I have no idea how quickly they got that news. I also would guess that once that happened, talking to their lawyers/bosses actually was at the top of the list.
They did try to reach him on September 9 (the day before the suicide) and apparently on September 13. They finally got him on the 15th. Too slow? Perhaps. Unusually slow? I have no idea.
Murky but if a female reports a sexual assault, it would be comforting to know as an alumni, student, citizen or parent that a trained police force would immediately investigate the incident to protect any evidence, offer the complaintant help (physical or psychological), get any potential criminal off the streets, conduct witness interview, dismiss the claim against another student if unfounded, and protect the university's name. The UND police only did the later it appears. Really, they couldn't track down the suspect who they knew was a football player? Try going to the 3:00PM practice guys....Barney Fife could have figured this one out.
The deep UND alumni are livid at the university and athletics program right now. The lawsuit is coming as it should--but it will be because they didn't do their friggin job vs. just the alleged crime. Just a shame for the girl and the family, and even for the player if this was this minor as reported.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 18, 2010, 10:07:58 AM
Just a shame for the girl and the family, and even for the player if this was this minor as reported.
Good point and important element of this. The undoubtedly slow response and defense of that timeline in the weeks since is not helping anyone. While the allegation of assault certainly don't make the player a stand up guy, its nature also doesn't warrant this type of firestorm. His identity will get out, its only a matter of time. If the university does its damn job in a reasonable fashion instead of the classic good ole boys, defer to us on everything stonewall, everyone involved is in a better position.
I'm not taking one side or the other, NDPD haven't released what they all did in nature to this investigation....but
lets remember accusation does not equal guilt.... to play devil's advocate imagine if you're the parent of the male student who gets falsely accused. his rep would be ruined for a long time ala the duke lacrosse players because somebody else accuses due to frustration, greed, whatever.
Quote from: Stone Cold on December 18, 2010, 10:52:21 AM
I'm not taking one side or the other, NDPD haven't released what they all did in nature to this investigation....but
lets remember accusation does not equal guilt.... to play devil's advocate imagine if you're the parent of the male student who gets falsely accused. his rep would be ruined for a long time ala the duke lacrosse players because somebody else accuses due to frustration, greed, whatever.
True...in fact her parents even said they didn't think this was chargeable based on what they heard way after...but their daughter was already fragile and OD'ed soon after the incident and the authorities did nothing to investigate one way or the other when they should have which led to further stress on the girl...and then the harassing texts came with no police action. The crime was on the police force who did nothing proper--leading her over the edge. Pathetic and it is why the UND Board is going to have to write another big check to dead students' parents on their watch. The parents relied on a school and authorities they trusted to do what should have done and check this out and report back.
The girl wasn't a UND student.
You're assuming stress points though....a lot of assumptions in this story.
The girl had mental health issues, it could have been her getting in a fight with the mother caused her to kill herself. So it's the mothers "fault"? No, because most people in those situations don't kill themselves.
Hell she could have felt terrible for falsely accusing and killed herself...we could play these games all day.
I think this story gets into big problems when there is an attempt to draw causation from the alleged assault to the tragic suicide.
I agree with Stone Cold's point on the danger of false accusations as well. The sad part is that because of the timeframe of investigators in the case, there will never be any type of legitimate investigation into what did or did not happen. The girl has died, the alleged assailant will be forever assumed guilty because of the impossibility of an effective investigation. Because ND did not take the allegation seriously (for whatever reason, that is up for speculation) everyone is worse off.
As for the fact that she went to St Mary's and not ND, ND has worked incredibly hard to cultivate a close relationship with St. Mary's, and has always done so. That's why they aren't raising jurisdictional issues, because they want St Mary's to be seen as an extension of ND. That's also a big reason why it is such a popular destination for ND generational families to send their daughters. ND doesn't want to alienate that crowd, its incredibly important to them to keep that tie.
Relatedly, does anyone know if ND campus police also patrol and have jurisdiction over St. Mary's campus?
Quote from: Stone Cold on December 18, 2010, 11:10:59 AM
The girl wasn't a UND student.
You're assuming stress points though....a lot of assumptions in this story.
The girl had mental health issues, it could have been her getting in a fight with the mother caused her to kill herself. So it's the mothers "fault"? No, because most people in those situations don't kill themselves.
Hell she could have felt terrible for falsely accusing and killed herself...we could play these games all day.
I am not assuming anything in terms of the girl's mental condition...but the contributing facts of any civil case are fairly clear cut: the UND police waited days to even follow up on a criminal complaint filed within 24 hours of the alleged crime. And then did not formally investigate a written claim of criminal harassment of the victim by a witness to the event. UND will have no leg to stand in a civil court. They are culpable in a major way to the lawsuit as they didn't even come close to following proper police procedures. More so, as they have refused to even turn over the paperwork to her parents after her death--count on a claim of triple the damages as the fox is watching the hen house. UND will be writing a check to settle this out of the court as they usually do. Sad all the way around.
I'd like to see how the ND police handle similar reports where the suspect isn't a star football player.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on December 18, 2010, 06:11:24 PM
I'd like to see how the ND police handle similar reports where the suspect isn't a star football player.
And my point all along has been that you (and I) have absolutely no idea. It might be exactly the same; it might be completely different. None of us know. We can fault them for the way they handled it, but without more information, we can't fault them for handling it incorrectly because he was a football player.
Wow. It looks like Notre Dame just disregards sexual assaults cases whether a football player was involved or not:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-notre-dame-20110217,0,4917455.story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-notre-dame-20110217,0,4917455.story)
Notre Dame: Hide your kids, Hide your wife
Quote from: TallTitan34 on February 17, 2011, 08:50:50 AM
Wow. It looks like Notre Dame just disregards sexual assaults cases whether a football player was involved or not:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-notre-dame-20110217,0,4917455.story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-notre-dame-20110217,0,4917455.story)
Notre Dame: Hide your kids, Hide your wife
Hide your TV reporters.
Quote"The department assigned the case to a detective Sept. 8 — more than 72 hours after the woman reported being sexually assaulted. Authorities waited because the department was stretched thin by the first home football game of the season Sept. 4, sources said."
Glad it takes four days of rest and recovery from directing traffic to finally investigate a felony.
HT: Tim
Just remember... it ain't the crime. It's the cover up.
http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/docs-notre-dame-edited-declan-sullivan-videos-29574
What a joke. How are they allowed to edit the tapes before turning them over?
Typical Notre Dame arrogance.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 22, 2011, 08:17:30 AM
What a joke. How are they allowed to edit the tapes before turning them over?
Typical Notre Dame arrogance.
Well, actually they didn't turn them over...they just showed them to OSHA investigators.
If they destroyed anything, that's a problem. If they edited them, you can speculate all you want, but as someone who works in this area, that's not terribly surprising to me and it doesn't necessarily suggest arrogance to me. Based on that report, they did not try to hide the fact that the videos were edited. Many, many times in my career during government investigations, I have advised my clients to produce only what the investigators "need" to see to complete an effective investigation. Just because you're being investigated, does not give the government the right to see things that are unrelated to the investigation. If the government investigators follow-up and ask for more, we work through it. Far more often they are satisfied that what we've provided is sufficient for their purposes and they don't ask for more. That doesn't make my clients arrogant. That doesn't mean they are hiding anything. It generally means only that they're trying to keep government investigators from having unfettered access into information that unrelated to the investigation or is not needed.
I'm not defending ND in this because I think it's clear that they screwed up big time and that their mistake cost a kid his life. It's tragic and Notre Dame should be held accountable. But OSHA has announced its fines so apparently it completed its investigation against ND. The agency saw what it needed to see to complete its investigation (and for all we know they followed up and were provided additional video). I do not have any problem whatsoever with ND editing the video, and at this point we really don't know if OSHA does either.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 22, 2011, 08:52:21 AM
Well, actually they didn't turn them over...they just showed them to OSHA investigators.
If they destroyed anything, that's a problem. If they edited them, you can speculate all you want, but as someone who works in this area, that's not terribly surprising to me and it doesn't necessarily suggest arrogance to me. Based on that report, they did not try to hide the fact that the videos were edited. Many, many times in my career during government investigations, I have advised my clients to produce only what the investigators "need" to see to complete an effective investigation. Just because you're being investigated, does not give the government the right to see things that are unrelated to the investigation. If the government investigators follow-up and ask for more, we work through it. Far more often they are satisfied that what we've provided is sufficient for their purposes and they don't ask for more. That doesn't make my clients arrogant. That doesn't mean they are hiding anything. It generally means only that they're trying to keep government investigators from having unfettered access into information that unrelated to the investigation or is not needed.
I'm not defending ND in this because I think it's clear that they screwed up big time and that their mistake cost a kid his life. It's tragic and Notre Dame should be held accountable. But OSHA has announced its fines so apparently it completed its investigation against ND. The agency saw what it needed to see to complete its investigation (and for all we know they followed up and were provided additional video). I do not have any problem whatsoever with ND editing the video, and at this point we really don't know if OSHA does either.
Good points.
Question for you: What could ND have felt the need to edit out of the tapes?
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 22, 2011, 08:52:21 AM
I do not have any problem whatsoever with ND editing the video, and at this point we really don't know if OSHA does either.
If you click through to the link, you can see quite clearly that OSHA has a problem with ND editing the video. That is the entire point of the post.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 22, 2011, 09:19:03 AM
Question for you: What could ND have felt the need to edit out of the tapes?
They could have edited out major gusts of wind since they claim it was a "beautiful day".
Quote from: Henry Sugar on March 22, 2011, 09:20:40 AM
If you click through to the link, you can see quite clearly that OSHA has a problem with ND editing the video. That is the entire point of the post.
I did click through to the link, and I didn't come to the same conclusion. I saw that OSHA commented in their initial notes that some was missing. I have no idea, and I suspect that no one else here does either, whether OSHA "had a problem" with that. They noted the edits, as any competent investigator would. The statement that it was "unduly" edited is editorializing by the web site. What happened next is the key. Did they follow up with ND and ask why the video tape was edited? What did ND say? Was OSHA satisfied with the response? Did they ever comment or allege that ND was not cooperating with the investigation? Where are the notes from those conversations?
We simply don't know. All we know is that OSHA completed its investigation and levied fines. What I'm telling you, from experience, is that it's not uncommon for an employer who is being investigated by the government to refuse to turn over everything that is requested. Government investigators often make extremely broad and unreasonable requests. Employers often limit what they produce. This doesn't necessarily mean that they're arrogant, that they're hiding something, or that they're not cooperating. It might mean that, but it doesn't necessarily mean that. If OSHA thought that ND didn't provide sufficient information, it could have and would have followed up. For all I know, OSHA did follow up.
My only point here is that just because they edited the video tape doesn't mean that they did something inappropriate (aside from the obvious improprieties that led to the videographer's death).
Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 22, 2011, 09:22:21 AM
They could have edited out major gusts of wind since they claim it was a "beautiful day".
That would be a shockingly stupid thing to do. I'm not saying that it's impossible, but it would be really, really dumb. At some point, ti's almost certain that someone is going to see the full video. If the parts that were edited out of the copy provided to OSHA are damning, ND will be in even more trouble than they are now. If the original video has been destroyed, whoever sues ND will be entitled to a jury instruction that they jury can presume that the destroyed video would have been favorable to the plaintiff's cause. I'm comfortable in assuming that the video is not destroyed and will see the light of day.
As much as some people would prefer to think that this is some sort of conspiracy to hide what actually happened, I think the most likely explanation is that the video that was edited out is just more of the same. It's likely that ND told OSHA that what they produced was representative of the entire video. They produced video that showed that it was windy/gusty. It showed that the comment that it was a "beautiful day" was questionable (at best - dishonest at worst). The video led, in part, to the fines. If the video that was edited out is incriminating, God help ND. They will, and should, get hammered if that turns out to be the case.
I'm coming at this as someone who helps clients deal with government investigations all the time. Government investigators often make requests that are extremely broad that seek information that is not really necessary to complete their investigation. I don't think it is at all unreasonable to cooperate with an investigation, but limit what you produce to that information that is needed to complete a fair investigation. In saying this, I am not advocating hiding information relevant to the investigation. This is illegal and stupid and causes far more problems than it solves.
Quote from: StillAWarrior on March 22, 2011, 09:56:40 AM
That would be a shockingly stupid thing to do. I'm not saying that it's impossible, but it would be really, really dumb. At some point, ti's almost certain that someone is going to see the full video.
Notre Dame was shockingly stupid without the video by saying it was a beautiful day. Everyone in the midwest knew of the crazy wind gusts that week.
I think they are trying to cover their ass and make the video look like there was nothing out of the ordinary going on with the weather that day.
"Notre Dame was shockingly stupid without the video by saying it was a beautiful day. Everyone in the midwest knew of the crazy wind gusts that week.
I think they are trying to cover their ass and make the video look like there was nothing out of the ordinary going on with the weather that day."
You have every right to "think" that, and you might be right. I simply don't know. There are a lot of other things I don't know. For example, what does the rest of the statement say? The site obviously has the document, why do they only give a portion of the first sentence. Would you admit that it's possible that Kelly started the statement by describing the beginning of the day ("It was a beautiful day..."), and then continued with what happened later ("...and then the winds picked up...")? I don't know. Do you? I think I'd like to see that context before I conclude that ND is trying to claim that there was nothing out of the ordinary with the weather that day. One of the stupidest things you can do is take a position that can be proven false. I'd be very surprised if ND is trying to go down that path because everyone knows how the weather was that day.
Again, all I'm saying is ND has a lot more to lose than to gain by covering this up that doesn't mean that they aren't doing it, but none of what I've seen (including ND's very candid apology shortly after the accident) lead me to think that this is the case.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-03-15/news/ct-met-notre-dame-lift-investigation-20110315_1_declan-sullivan-notre-dame-student-student-videographer (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-03-15/news/ct-met-notre-dame-lift-investigation-20110315_1_declan-sullivan-notre-dame-student-student-videographer)
Quote"It was a beautiful day," the investigator quoted Kelly as saying. "It was 68 degrees and I remember looking up 11:54 a.m. and the wind was 22 miles per hour."
According to Kelly's account, weather conditions remained normal until "a big gust of wind hit me." Swarbrick described the same gust in his interview, saying Gatorade bottles, footballs and clothing started flying around the field.
This has been Notre Dame's argument the entire time. It was a fine summer day when completely out of nowhere with no warning a huge gust of wind came.
Obviously I have no idea if it's true or not, but I think they edited the videos to make it seem exactly as they say.
Throughout the midwest those two or three days, there were constant gusts of wind. Even the victim tweeted how bad the wind was. Everyone seemed to know this except Notre Dame.
As I said before, you might be right. ND might be shockingly stupid...they wouldn't be the first (or the last).
However, I'll reiterate that as a general matter, I wouldn't make too much of the fact that someone does not turn over everything that is requested. Often there is a good explanation. This case might be a exception.
And if they did edit those videos to misrepresent how the weather was that day, I suspect that will become one of the more expensive film editing sessions in recent memory. Bad, bad idea.