MUScoop

Crean lands a nice one in Hanner Perea:  http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/player-Hanner-Perea-96521

He has a nice class for 2012:  http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/98245

He is like clockwork every three or four years.

He can now point to the future when his team continues to struggle for the next year or two.

My hunch is you will see him land many more consistent classes at IU then at MU for all the obvious reasons.

Maybe the idiocy by some people saying he would be fired after this year or the next will finally end.  Fred Glass and the President (Mcrobbie) have a long term plan as I've stated many times....Crean is very much part of that plan.  He isn't going anywhere.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 31, 2010, 10:46:06 PM
Maybe the idiocy by some people saying he would be fired after this year or the next will finally end.  Fred Glass and the President (Mcrobbie) have a long term plan as I've stated many times....Crean is very much part of that plan.  He isn't going anywhere.

I will not back down from my idiocy.  Speaking of which exactly two years, or 731 days for you to realize it wasn't idiocy :)

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15620.50

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 31, 2010, 10:46:06 PM
My hunch is you will see him land many more consistent classes at IU then at MU for all the obvious reasons.

Maybe the idiocy by some people saying he would be fired after this year or the next will finally end.  Fred Glass and the President (Mcrobbie) have a long term plan as I've stated many times....Crean is very much part of that plan.  He isn't going anywhere.

If he turns in a couple more sub-.500 seasons he's going to be shown the door.  If he finally starts landing the kind of recruits he should (It's Indiana) but they still suck what else can you expect?  Not saying this will happen, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it did.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on October 31, 2010, 10:46:06 PM
My hunch is you will see him land many more consistent classes at IU then at MU for all the obvious reasons.

Yeah - well at Marquette Crean hired the Jerry Sichting's of the world and gave his kid a walk on role...but he finally figured it out at IU to where:  Hey if I hire your son (Mr. Head Coach of the Indiana Elite AAU Team), will you help funnel players my way?  As a bonus, I'll give a walk on slot to your one of your Board of Director's sons too.

Ironic that 8 of Crean's recruits have come from this same AAU program. 

Quote from: Ners on November 01, 2010, 09:53:42 PM
Yeah - well at Marquette Crean hired the Jerry Sichting's of the world and gave his kid a walk on role...but he finally figured it out at IU to where:  Hey if I hire your son (Mr. Head Coach of the Indiana Elite AAU Team), will you help funnel players my way?  As a bonus, I'll give a walk on slot to your one of your Board of Director's sons too.

Ironic that 8 of Crean's recruits have come from this same AAU program.  

Very ironic, especially considering that Elite has been sending players to IU for many years prior to Crean, it's just that now they have a reason where more want to go there.  Must be the Dwyane Wade videos.

It was only a matter of time before Crean started picking up big time recruiting classes.  The Sampson days are well behind IU and they do have great history there.  C'mon, it's Indiana, its Indiana.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 01, 2010, 10:36:10 PM

Very ironic, especially considering that Elite has been sending players to IU for many years prior to Crean, it's just that now they have a reason where more want to go there.  Must be the Dwyane Wade videos.

Chicos -- If Buzz Williams hired an AAU coach as one of our assistants and then started a pipeline from that program to MU you'd have coronary.

The odds are that these guys will transfer out of IU anyway.

One of our assistants...yes.   As the video coordinator, no

Quote from: rocky_warrior on November 01, 2010, 07:28:01 PM
I will not back down from my idiocy.  Speaking of which exactly two years, or 731 days for you to realize it wasn't idiocy :)

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=15620.50

Idiocy then and idiocy still today....that's why I took the bet.  Taking candy from a baby.   ;D   

Go Buck!

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 03, 2010, 09:36:40 AM
Idiocy then and idiocy still today....that's why I took the bet.  Taking candy from a baby.   ;D   

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 03, 2010, 05:06:41 PM
Translation...timing is everything and hatred blinds reality.

Timing is everything and love blinds reality.  Crean won't be around to coach this class (half of which won't be there even if he does make it that far).  Don't worry though, I know I could lose the bet.  I just don't think it's likely (such is what happens when people make 10 year plans - they don't go as planned - hah).

Crean is definitely cleaning uo with the class of 2012--he has two committments from the ESPN list.

I checked the top 60 there, we are only being considered by one player of ESPN's Supre 60. I won't say we need results--I'll just say I wish we were in and getting some of these guys.

Balanced write-up by Eamonn on our friend...sounds like the natives (long time fans and former players) are more restless about this year:

"To be honest with you, I wish Coach [Bob] Knight was still there," said Tom Abernethy, a member of Indiana's legendary 1975-76 national championship team, which went 32-0 on its way to the title under Knight. "That may not be the best answer, but I guess that's just how I see it." ...

Crean's vocal understanding of that problem is one of the reasons that, despite his 16-46 record at Indiana, there is an unmistakable energy surrounding his tenure. It's hard to talk to a former player -- even those who wish Knight was still roaming the sidelines -- without hearing mostly positive things on Crean and his tenure to date.

Tom Crean has made a connection with IU fans, but winning has to come next -- and soon.  Some fans lost the faith last season, when Crean was struggling on two fronts -- the Hoosiers were in the midst of an 11-game Big Ten losing streak, a stretch that included eight losses of 15 points or more, just as it was becoming clear that Crean's 2010 recruiting class would not match the top-10-level talent he landed in 2009. The die-hards became restless, as they are wont to do. But most have come back off the ledge.

"He started with almost nothing, and fans understand that," said Gillenwater Jr. "I think this year is the year you want to see him get to about 75 percent of what the program can be. Fans won't wait around forever. We're going to want a nice jump in wins from Year 2 to Year 3. But we are happy with the foundation he's building, and no reasonable fan would expect them to already be fully back in two years."


http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5766764

Crean will be gone by year end.  He will be selling the new clean diesel Mercedes and Chicos will wash them before the sale.

Quote from: LCDutchman on November 16, 2010, 01:19:25 PM
Crean will be gone by year end.  He will be selling the new clean diesel Mercedes and Chicos will wash them before the sale.

You still owe on the bet for Notre Dame.  Why haven't you paid that off yet?

Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 02, 2010, 10:44:24 AM
Chicos -- If Buzz Williams hired an AAU coach as one of our assistants and then started a pipeline from that program to MU you'd have coronary.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 03, 2010, 09:34:14 AM
One of our assistants...yes.   As the video coordinator, no

Even thought it was 2 weeks ago, I just noticed this.

Really Chicos? You would squirm more if Buzz did something legal (hire the AAU coach as an assistant) than if he did something that was illegal (hire teh AAU coach as the video coordinator).

Doesnt make a much sense...

Quote from: GOMU1104 on November 16, 2010, 05:57:21 PM


Even thought it was 2 weeks ago, I just noticed this.

Really Chicos? You would squirm more if Buzz did something legal (hire the AAU coach as an assistant) than if he did something that was illegal (hire teh AAU coach as the video coordinator).

Doesnt make a much sense...

Help explain to me how hiring him as the video coordinator is illegal? 


http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jn-juco072310

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 16, 2010, 07:26:51 PM
Help explain to me how hiring him as the video coordinator is illegal?  


http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jn-juco072310

I used "illegal" wrong in this instance, my mistake.

It is legal to hire whoever you want as video coordinator, however (as the article explains) you are prohibited from recruiting anyone associated with that person for 2 years. (I actually think the rule is 2 years after the person moves on from that position...could be wrong though).

It is perfectly legal to hire anyone you want as a full-time assistant, however you are only allowed 3 of those people on your staff.  You can then go on to continue to recruit anyone that may be associated with that coach.

So would you squirm more if MU did what they are prohibited from doing, or something that is perfectly legal?

Quote from: GOMU1104 on November 16, 2010, 07:49:08 PM
I used "illegal" wrong in this instance, my mistake.

It is legal to hire whoever you want as video coordinator, however (as the article explains) you are prohibited from recruiting anyone associated with that person for 2 years. (I actually think the rule is 2 years after the person moves on from that position...could be wrong though).

It is perfectly legal to hire anyone you want as a full-time assistant, however you are only allowed 3 of those people on your staff.  You can then go on to continue to recruit anyone that may be associated with that coach.

So would you squirm more if MU did what they are prohibited from doing, or something that is perfectly legal?

Yes, I would squirm much more if we started acting like Kentucky, Louisville, etc and hired a parent, AAU coach, etc to be on the bench, coaching, recruiting then hiring someone to be in a back office as the video coordinator.  Absolutely.  Not even a close discussion IMO.  No one is going to be attending a school because of the video coordinator.  That's quite a different story for someone that is 18 inches away on the bench from the head coach and can get in his ear, persuade playing time, etc.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 17, 2010, 12:44:30 PM
Yes, I would squirm much more if we started acting like Kentucky, Louisville, etc and hired a parent, AAU coach, etc to be on the bench, coaching, recruiting then hiring someone to be in a back office as the video coordinator.  Absolutely.  Not even a close discussion IMO.  No one is going to be attending a school because of the video coordinator.  That's quite a different story for someone that is 18 inches away on the bench from the head coach and can get in his ear, persuade playing time, etc.

Am I reading correctly...you would rather have MU cheat than do something legal?

First...its not a matter of the player being comfortable with the video coordinator ("Man I really like the way he cuts up the video"). It was simply just another way to funnel money to the people around the player. And yes, it happened before the rule was changed, so dont say "no one goes to school for the..."

Second...lets play "blind resume" for a second. Would you have a problem if MU made this legal hire, if it meant landing a Top 40 player?:

-Alum of the school
-Graduate Assistant for a team that went to the Final Four
-13 years at the JUCO level at one school (several conference titles, NJCAA tournament success, placing many players at the D1 level and coaching future pros)

Doing something LEGAL like this would make you squirm more than hiring some clown for a non-staff position, or giving jobs/walkon spots to those connected to a prominent AAU program?

Again...programs are only allowed 3 full time assistants. Head coaches most likely arent going to waste one of those 3 spots on some clown that has only coached 15U AAU squads.

No, you are not reading that correctly.  IU didn't do anything illegal, didn't cheat with this hiring.  If MU were to do the same thing and put the AAU coach as a video coordinator, I would have no issue with it.

Where you get something was illegal or cheating with what occurred?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 17, 2010, 10:34:48 PM
No, you are not reading that correctly.  IU didn't do anything illegal, didn't cheat with this hiring.  If MU were to do the same thing and put the AAU coach as a video coordinator, I would have no issue with it.

Where you get something was illegal or cheating with what occurred?

So, do you really think that the son of the Indiana Elite coach is/was the most qualifed video coordinator on the market?  Also, think that the walk on who is the son of the Board of Directors of Indiana Elite was the best player available?  No quid pro quo's here Chicos?  No scratch my back, I'll scratch yours?  You really don't think the coach of an AAU program, or a member of an AAU programs board of directors has any influence on where a kid plays college ball?? 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 17, 2010, 10:34:48 PM
No, you are not reading that correctly.  IU didn't do anything illegal, didn't cheat with this hiring.  If MU were to do the same thing and put the AAU coach as a video coordinator, I would have no issue with it.

Where you get something was illegal or cheating with what occurred?

Wow. Here I thought you were about doing the right thing, and trying to avoid all squirm-related moves.

Would you have a problem hiring the coach I outlined...something that the NCAA permits.

Quote from: Ners on November 17, 2010, 10:42:40 PM
So, do you really think that the son of the Indiana Elite coach is/was the most qualifed video coordinator on the market?  Also, think that the walk on who is the son of the Board of Directors of Indiana Elite was the best player available?  No quid pro quo's here Chicos?  No scratch my back, I'll scratch yours?  You really don't think the coach of an AAU program, or a member of an AAU programs board of directors has any influence on where a kid plays college ball?? 

That's kind of funny, especially if you read the article featuring Buzz Williams and what he thinks of the entire rule.  He doesn't like it, feels it doesn't allow propsective coaches from moving up the ladder, etc, etc.

Was he the best or most qualified candidate?  I don't know.  Do you have proof that he wasn't?  Should he have interviewed 500 candidates to make sure he was the best one?  How about 5000?  How about 50,000?   Let's get real here.  It's no different than hiring that I do.  We interview multiple candidates but does that mean we interview 1000's?  No.  It's impractical.  You hire the best qualified candidate you can from the pool of candidates you have.   How do you know who applied for that particular job at IU?  You don't.

Now, I keep reading the word "illegal" on multiple occasions from GOMU1104 and I still have yet to see what was illegal and why is that term being used when it's not illegal....please explain.

Quote from: GOMU1104 on November 17, 2010, 05:07:50 PM
Am I reading correctly...you would rather have MU cheat than do something legal?

First...its not a matter of the player being comfortable with the video coordinator ("Man I really like the way he cuts up the video"). It was simply just another way to funnel money to the people around the player. And yes, it happened before the rule was changed, so dont say "no one goes to school for the..."

Second...lets play "blind resume" for a second. Would you have a problem if MU made this legal hire, if it meant landing a Top 40 player?:

-Alum of the school
-Graduate Assistant for a team that went to the Final Four
-13 years at the JUCO level at one school (several conference titles, NJCAA tournament success, placing many players at the D1 level and coaching future pros)

Doing something LEGAL like this would make you squirm more than hiring some clown for a non-staff position, or giving jobs/walkon spots to those connected to a prominent AAU program?

Again...programs are only allowed 3 full time assistants. Head coaches most likely arent going to waste one of those 3 spots on some clown that has only coached 15U AAU squads.

Do you know what the Video Coordinator gets paid?   Are you really trying to imply that there is money laundering going on with a video coordinator and his paultry salary?  Please.  Or are you saying there is an additional kickback going on somewhere?

You do realize that the video coordinator position for some universities is actually an hourly position, not even salaried.  For some bigger schools, yes, it's a salaried position but no great shakes.  A friend of mine, his son is a video coordinator for a Pac Ten school in the northwest...salary...$47,000 and that's for FOOTBALL!!

Check out the College Sports Video Association (yes, it actually exists).  UMASS basketball currently has the position open...salary $26,600 to $29,900.   

Again, come on. 



Now, for your what if scenario:  Yeah, I do have a problem with hiring an assistant coach for the purpose of landing specific players.  Package deals as it were.  Especially with the sole purpose of having that guy in that position for only a year or two.  1)  You're paying the guy a 6 figure salary as an assistant (vs the paltry sum a Video Coordinator makes)  2)  The intent is solely to land a top 40 player...that's shady as all get out 

I thought I was pretty clear when I said I wouldn't have a problem with a hiring at a low level position where they aren't making much money, have very little influence on the coach or player vs someone that would be an assistant coach, has strong influence over the coach and will make a lot of money in their own right.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 18, 2010, 04:32:48 PM
Do you know what the Video Coordinator gets paid?   Are you really trying to imply that there is money laundering going on with a video coordinator and his paultry salary?  Please.  Or are you saying there is an additional kickback going on somewhere?

....   

Again, come on. 

YES! Dont you understand that is the exact reason why the NCAA enacted this rule?!?! It is in the very article you linked earlier in this thread!

Examples from the article alone:
-Dwon Clifton (AAU coach of John Wall) hired at Bayor as the "Director of Player Development"
-Terrelle Woody (advisor to Augustus Gilchrist) hired at USF as the "Video and Conditioning Assistant)
-Danny Manning and Mario Chalmers dads at Kansas, I believe they were the DOBOs.

Also, from your neck of the woods, Dwayne Polee Sr was hired as the DOBO at USC in 2007, shortly after his son committed to the Trojans as a 9th grader. The son decomitted from USC a few years later and his father resigned from his position.

Back to the article, did you miss this quote: "The intent of the NCAA isn't bad if it eliminates AAU guys getting hired at Program X for $40,000 and all they do is show up twice a week to the office," said Freeberg.

So you would be OK (not squirm) if Buzz did something that Scott Drew/Stan Heath/Bill Self/Tim Floydd did...but wouldn't be OK with him doing something that the NCAA says is legal?

I don't know why, but you continue to miss what I'm saying.  What those other schools did is NOT what IU did....yet that seems to be the guilt by association that Ners is trying to jam down the throat here.

Why are we not talking about what ACTUALLY happened?

And yes, I know exactly why the rule was put into place, and despite Buzz not liking the rule, I disagree with him...it's to curb the nonsense that was going on.  I understand Buzz's take on it, that a few bad apples ruined it for everyone, but that's the way it goes.

I'll try to say it for a 4th time now, I would be fine if Buzz Williams wants to hire an AAU coach to be a Video Coordinator...which is LEGAL by NCAA rules.  The guy will make $40K if he's lucky and have very little impact on luring any type of player.  I would NOT be ok if he was to hire them as a coach like the examples given.  I thought I've been clear from day one on this, you seem to be inverting my responses which I don't understand why.  Honestly, I don't get where you're going with this.  I'm very much against what Heath, Drew, etc did.  What they did is vastly different than what IU did.  Again, are you sure you have everything factually correct here?

Let's take a look.

IU is associated with Indiana Elite, and has been for decades (they used to be called Indiana Red)

The Board of Directors son is on the IU team....as a WALK ON.  He isn't getting a free ride.  He's paying his way

The head coach of the Indiana Elite (the guy responsible for the talent) is not on the IU staff.  If you were going to try to get all these Indiana Elite players (which they have gotten for decades ANYWAYS), why not hire that coach?   Instead, his son is hired as a low level IU employee.   Do you know who's position he took....gasp.  Brian Barone's!!!  Yes, THAT Brian Barone.  Marquette graduate, Brian Barone.  Son of Tony Barone.   This just in, sons of coaches have an in in the ....wait for it....coaching world.  Just as sons of TV execs have an in to the TV world and sons of prominent lawyers have an in to the lawyer world.

Furthermore, do you know how Drew Adams got the position?   He played for Steve Alford at Iowa for a year...Alford went to IU.  You can bet that this kid probably wouldn't have played for Alford if not for the IU connection.  That's what connections are for.   Oh, and who else was on that staff?  Tim Buckley....he was an assistant for Alford at Iowa.  To this day, other than Mike Scioscia, I cannot remember a better person that Tim Buckley as a head coach that I have ever met.  Rob Jeter was a fine human being as well.  Adams then went to the University of Tennessee to earn his bachelor's in Sport Management and returned to Bloomington in 2008 to work at IU.  While at UT, he was a student assistant and has wanted to get into college coaching.

So help me connect the dots how this hiring in 2008 of a low level employee in the IU athletic department (making less than $22K per year) who happens to be 24 years old is somehow helping IU get recruits?  It doesn't, that's why I see no issue with it.  He has zero impact on gaining an advantage for the program, which is what the NCAA was legislating against.  That's why it's legal, that's why I would have no problem with it if Buzz did it.

Oh, and the kid had other offers to go elsewhere, but decided to say in his hometown in Bloomington.  So we have college graduate, Bloomington kid, worked for Tim Buckley (on IU's staff), played for Alford (former IU great) and son of AAU coach that has directed players to IU (and PU and others) for decades.  He's about as well connected as you're going to get.  Was he the best qualified?  Who knows.

PS  The day IU hired Adams, they also hired Mason Revelette from Louisville as a graduate manager.  I wonder how many kids Mason will be able to lure in

The video coordinator looks pretty qualified to me, in fact. I am able to connect dots though, and it seems that IU cleverly avoided the NCAA rules by hiring the son of the AAU coach (Drew Adams) instead of the AAU coach himself (Mark Adams). Because of that, they can still recruit players from the program. However...Drew Adams did work for Pearl, played for Alford, and went to JUCO, and is connected to an AAU program...doesnt make you squirm, just a bit?

But really for me, this isnt really that much about what is going on at IU. I was simply responding to the hypothetical that PRN proposed, and the surprising answer that you gave.

I find it hard to believe that, if Buzz hired someone or the son of someone associated with the Mac Irvin Fire/Wisconsin Playground Warriors/Mean Streets/Dallas Mustangs/MBA Hoops...you wouldnt squirm.

The fact is...the NCAA has implemented guidelines to curtail the hiring of people associated with recruits to non-staff coaching positions...and surprisingly, you still support those hires.

The NCAA allows the hiring of people associated with recruits to full time assistant coach positions, if they are so qualified. The assistant coach resume (an actual one, in fact) that I showed you...hes probably more qualified than alot of #3 (and maybe #2) assistants out there...yet you wouldnt support that hire?


Another thing...

QuoteSo help me connect the dots how this hiring in 2008 of a low level employee in the IU athletic department (making less than $22K per year) who happens to be 24 years old is somehow helping IU get recruits?  It doesn't, that's why I see no issue with it.  He has zero impact on gaining an advantage for the program, which is what the NCAA was legislating against.  That's why it's legal, that's why I would have no problem with it if Buzz did it.

C'mon, you've been around, you're smarter than this...You dont think this hire/promotion helps maintain the relationship between the Indiana Elite and the IU program? Again, its not illegal, per se, because he is the son of the AAU coach, not the coach himself.

QuoteThe day IU hired Adams, they also hired Mason Revelette from Louisville as a graduate manager. I wonder how many kids Mason will be able to lure in

Is he associated with any AAU programs?




Ugh...I feel like MU84 after this post.

I guess I just don't see the outrage on this that some are cooking up.  A 24 year old kid is given an opportunity at a very low level to come in.  He's certainly qualified, he was promoted from within, etc, etc.

As for the second quote, do you think not hiring this kid would have meant the association with this AAU team and IU would have been different?  They've had this relationship for decades, going back to Bob Knight.  The hiring of this kid isn't going to change that.  What if the kid leaves, which he ultimately will, for another program when another opportunity comes up?  Does that mean the relationship is suddenly in jeopardy?

If Buzz wants to do that, have at it.  Where I have always felt it was way over the line was the outright hiring of coaches, parents, etc to staffs to get a specific kid.  It was an example of schools thumbing their nose at the NCAA.  KU did it with the Mannings and you've provided a number of other examples.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 19, 2010, 12:06:28 PM
I guess I just don't see the outrage on this that some are cooking up.  A 24 year old kid is given an opportunity at a very low level to come in.  He's certainly qualified, he was promoted from within, etc, etc.

As for the second quote, do you think not hiring this kid would have meant the association with this AAU team and IU would have been different?  They've had this relationship for decades, going back to Bob Knight.  The hiring of this kid isn't going to change that.  What if the kid leaves, which he ultimately will, for another program when another opportunity comes up?  Does that mean the relationship is suddenly in jeopardy?

If Buzz wants to do that, have at it.  Where I have always felt it was way over the line was the outright hiring of coaches, parents, etc to staffs to get a specific kid.  It was an example of schools thumbing their nose at the NCAA.  KU did it with the Mannings and you've provided a number of other examples.

I think the concensus is that you would squirm if Buzz did this.  I think you are perceived as a hypocrite when it comes to TC.   Is that a fair summary?

Quote from: mu-rara on November 19, 2010, 03:33:54 PM
I think the concensus is that you would squirm if Buzz did this.  I think you are perceived as a hypocrite when it comes to TC.   Is that a fair summary?

I think the consensus is that you have a hard-on (and agenda) for certain people as can be seen in 60% of your posts.  Fair and accurate summary.

Quote from: mu-rara on November 19, 2010, 03:33:54 PM
I think the concensus is that you would squirm if Buzz did this.  I think you are perceived as a hypocrite when it comes to TC.   Is that a fair summary?

95% of posters here would agree.  The double standard and hyprocrisy are obvious to everyone.  It is amazing the lengths that have been gone to by Mr. Bailbondsmen to try to justify the hiring move of AAU coaches son.  I can't imagine Chicos going to these lengths to defend Buzz on anything.  In fact he perpetuates many pages of b.s. that discredit and call into question our current head coach - multiple Newbill threads, "squirmy" practices, etc. 

Quote from: Ners on November 19, 2010, 05:25:57 PM
95% of posters here would agree.  The double standard and hyprocrisy are obvious to everyone.  It is amazing the lengths that have been gone to by Mr. Bailbondsmen to try to justify the hiring move of AAU coaches son.  I can't imagine Chicos going to these lengths to defend Buzz on anything.  In fact he perpetuates many pages of b.s. that discredit and call into question our current head coach - multiple Newbill threads, "squirmy" practices, etc. 

I am just shocked that you two have different opinions.

Quote from: Ners on November 19, 2010, 05:25:57 PM
95% of posters here would agree.  The double standard and hyprocrisy are obvious to everyone.  It is amazing the lengths that have been gone to by Mr. Bailbondsmen to try to justify the hiring move of AAU coaches son.  I can't imagine Chicos going to these lengths to defend Buzz on anything.  In fact he perpetuates many pages of b.s. that discredit and call into question our current head coach - multiple Newbill threads, "squirmy" practices, etc. 

You speak for 95% of the people here.  That's interesting on so many levels.  The dumbing down of America is happening faster than I thought.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 19, 2010, 05:54:18 PM
You speak for 95% of the people here.  That's interesting on so many levels.  The dumbing down of America is happening faster than I thought.

I thought that you knew that 95% of all facts are made up on the spot.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 19, 2010, 06:10:45 PM
I thought that you knew that 95% of all facts are made up on the spot.

I thought it was 103% are made up 86% of the time

Speaking of newly annointed DBBO's and AAU, high school, basketball camp connections.....working his way up from  video coordinator. ;D

http://www.uicflames.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/ryan_matt00.html

Speaking of cleaning up, looks like Yogie Ferrel will commit to IU per the Indy Star.  If you're into ratings, he's the #2 point guard in the nation per Rivals.

They also got a commitment yesterday from Collin Hartman and Devin Davis, both in state kids.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 23, 2010, 02:19:55 PM
Speaking of cleaning up, looks like Yogie Ferrel will commit to IU per the Indy Star.  If you're into ratings, he's the #2 point guard in the nation per Rivals.

They also got a commitment yesterday from Collin Hartman and Devin Davis, both in state kids.

Yogi (vs Yogie) and many others have been scolding the Indy Star today after they said he had committed... ... including Kevin himself... not that I don't think it'll happen.  But, interesting how upset some are at the Indy Star.

BTW - I think you may mean #2 point guard in the nation in the 2012 class?  I don't know that I'd put him up there.. Rose, Paige.. maybe a couple of others.  He's a wee little man.

Wow.. now his mom is apparently going off at the writer from the Indy Star.. "Please don't look at, shake the hand of, or talk to my son Yogi EVER How cud u steal the most important day of my son's life" and "Yogi will officially commit to a college (one of his top five) tmrw.  Please don't be there!  You already had your story."

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 23, 2010, 02:19:55 PM
Speaking of cleaning up, looks like Yogie Ferrel will commit to IU per the Indy Star.  If you're into ratings, he's the #2 point guard in the nation per Rivals.

They also got a commitment yesterday from Collin Hartman and Devin Davis, both in state kids.

Stop touching yourself

Maybe Crean can get that all important Childress commitment to join his staff!

Quote from: Jay Bee on November 23, 2010, 02:28:38 PM
Yogi (vs Yogie) and many others have been scolding the Indy Star today after they said he had committed... ... including Kevin himself... not that I don't think it'll happen.  But, interesting how upset some are at the Indy Star.

BTW - I think you may mean #2 point guard in the nation in the 2012 class?  I don't know that I'd put him up there.. Rose, Paige.. maybe a couple of others.  He's a wee little man.

Yes, that's what I mean...if you believe that crap...which I think is just for fans to get all ginned up about.


Well, that and it's funny to watch some folks here and their predictions get shattered....just because.

Quote from: tower912 on November 23, 2010, 02:40:02 PM
Stop touching yourself

It's hard not to, Buzz is a beautiful man

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 19, 2010, 04:18:13 PM
I think the consensus is that you have a hard-on (and agenda) for certain people as can be seen in 60% of your posts.  Fair and accurate summary.

Can't be sure what you're referring to.  If you're referring to the pretzel logic that you use to defend TC, then I am guilty.

Quote from: GOMU1104 on November 18, 2010, 07:39:21 PM
C'mon, you've been around, you're smarter than this...You dont think this hire/promotion helps maintain the relationship between the Indiana Elite and the IU program? Again, its not illegal, per se, because he is the son of the AAU coach, not the coach himself.

I think you have to look at it from the recruit's standpoint.  Is it reasonable to think that a player would attend a particular school because they hired the son of his AAU coach?

I think the NCAA--rightly--views that there is a strong relationship between an AAU coach and his players, and there is no similar bond between a player and his coach's son.

Quote from: GOMU1104 on November 18, 2010, 07:39:21 PM
Ugh...I feel like MU84 after this post.

Ugh?

Quote from: Jay Bee on November 23, 2010, 02:31:45 PM
Wow.. now his mom is apparently going off at the writer from the Indy Star.. "Please don't look at, shake the hand of, or talk to my son Yogi EVER How cud u steal the most important day of my son's life" and "Yogi will officially commit to a college (one of his top five) tmrw.  Please don't be there!  You already had your story."

So much for that

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20101124/SPORTS04/311240075/IU+basketball+keeps+the+commitments+rolling++adds+Yogi+Ferrell

Quote from: mu-rara on November 24, 2010, 10:14:15 AM
  Can't be sure what you're referring to.  If you're referring to the pretzel logic that you use to defend TC, then I am guilty.

Love to hear the pretzel logic you refer to. 

Crean has steadily improved his recruiting while at IU. Not sure how big of a blow this might end up being...

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5868312 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5868312)

So, a project big from a juco and a questionable background brings bad publicity to a school and shows a lack of due diligence by a coaching staff and somehow that coach isn't lambasted for doing questionable things.     I will keep this in mind. 

Quote from: tower912 on December 02, 2010, 08:54:54 AM
So, a project big from a juco and a questionable background brings bad publicity to a school and shows a lack of due diligence by a coaching staff and somehow that coach isn't lambasted for doing questionable things.     I will keep this in mind. 

Forgive me, but where is the questionable background?

Quote from: tower912 on December 02, 2010, 08:54:54 AM
So, a project big from a juco and a questionable background brings bad publicity to a school and shows a lack of due diligence by a coaching staff and somehow that coach isn't lambasted for doing questionable things.     I will keep this in mind. 

We have been told by our resident insider on all things Indiana that the reason this year's class at IU was so weak is that TC wasn't given any leeway in recruiting "questionables". Clearly that was not the case. If something like this happened at MU, I'd guarantee some major squirming.

Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on December 02, 2010, 09:30:40 AM
Forgive me, but where is the questionable background?

His history in France.   Not 'questionable' from an ethical/criminal sense.   Questionable from a 'his academic and playing history overseas may make it difficult to keep him eligible' sense.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 02, 2010, 09:36:05 AM
We have been told by our resident insider on all things Indiana that the reason this year's class at IU was so weak is that TC wasn't given any leeway in recruiting "questionables". Clearly that was not the case. If something like this happened at MU, I'd guarantee some major squirming.

Care to go back and restate that based on what I actually said....THE ENTIRE thing that I said, not cherry picked?

Thanks...that seems the least you could do to represent my position honestly.  That's all I can ask, since you certainly didn't portray it honestly in the above paragraph.

Quote from: tower912 on December 02, 2010, 08:54:54 AM
So, a project big from a juco and a questionable background brings bad publicity to a school and shows a lack of due diligence by a coaching staff and somehow that coach isn't lambasted for doing questionable things.     I will keep this in mind.  

I'm curious what you are comparing this, too?  Bringing a kid in to play who is ultimately ruled ineligible because of amateurism issues (the same process Mbao had to go through)....this is the same as accepting a kid's letter of intent and then kicking him to the curb?

I'm just trying to understand what you're comparing it to?  Is it the same as tampering with a kid that is under scholarship with another university...a no-no with the NCAA?

Please explain.  Thanks

Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on December 02, 2010, 09:30:40 AM
Forgive me, but where is the questionable background?

The same type of background Mbao had...he played for a foreign team and when he was brought up, the NCAA deemed him professional.  That' the extent of the "questionable" background.

He didn't sign a LOI and then kicked to the curb.  He wasn't under scholarship at another school and tampered with.  He wasn't involved in any criminal issues or academic issues at all.  It's a matter of his 5 year eligibility window and amateurism.  Plain and simple, people here just wanting to make it look unsavory which it isn't.  Crean has done unsavory things in the past and I'm sure in the future, this isn't one of them.

"There are not other issues at play here," Cromer said. "It is simply a matter of overlapping bylaws and the fact that he ran out of time on his five-year clock to get to his eligibility in Division I."

Incidentally, they will still honor this kid's scholarship.  What a concept.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 02, 2010, 06:05:11 PM
Incidentally, they will still honor this kid's scholarship.  What a concept.

Big frickin' deal. Where are they gonna find someone for this year on Dec 2? LOL

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 02, 2010, 06:05:11 PM
The same type of background Mbao had...he played for a foreign team and when he was brought up, the NCAA deemed him professional.  That' the extent of the "questionable" background.

He didn't sign a LOI and then kicked to the curb.  He wasn't under scholarship at another school and tampered with.  He wasn't involved in any criminal issues or academic issues at all.  It's a matter of his 5 year eligibility window and amateurism.  Plain and simple, people here just wanting to make it look unsavory which it isn't.  Crean has done unsavory things in the past and I'm sure in the future, this isn't one of them.

"There are not other issues at play here," Cromer said. "It is simply a matter of overlapping bylaws and the fact that he ran out of time on his five-year clock to get to his eligibility in Division I."

Incidentally, they will still honor this kid's scholarship.  What a concept.

So let me get this straight, you claim you always want MU to win, are a much bigger MU fan than IU fan (and I assume would pull for MU were the two teams to meet, but feel free to reverse that position/correct me on that), yet based on your many comments the past several months, you obviously believe MU's coach is a cretin. How on earth do you reconcile those two things? How is your supposed continued 'support' of MU's basketball program anything but tacit endorsement of Buzz Williams' squirmy unethical behavior you claim to despise so much?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 02, 2010, 06:05:11 PM
Incidentally, they will still honor this kid's scholarship.  What a concept.

You mean the same thing MU did with McMorrow?

Quote from: jmayer1 on December 02, 2010, 10:42:14 PM
You mean the same thing MU did with McMorrow?

Burn!

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 02, 2010, 08:23:25 PM
So let me get this straight, you claim you always want MU to win, are a much bigger MU fan than IU fan (and I assume would pull for MU were the two teams to meet, but feel free to reverse that position/correct me on that), yet based on your many comments the past several months, you obviously believe MU's coach is a cretin. How on earth do you reconcile those two things? How is your supposed continued 'support' of MU's basketball program anything but tacit endorsement of Buzz Williams' squirmy unethical behavior you claim to despise so much?

I will always cheer for MU over ANY school they play.  Not even a second thought on that, ever.

I'm sorry...I believe MU's coach is a cretin?  Hardly, nor do my "many comments" suggest that.  Perhaps your definition of cretin is different than mine, but when I was growing up a cretin was a dunce, or stupid, even mentally retarded, an idiot.  Please define cretin for me in your terms because I have certainly never labeled Buzz in any of those terms, let along "many comments in the past several months".

So let's start there and the definitions out of the way before I can answer the rest of your post. 

Quote from: jmayer1 on December 02, 2010, 10:42:14 PM
You mean the same thing MU did with McMorrow?

Yup...but not the same thing they did with Newbill, but of course there was a reason for that......the on again off again Wilson transfer that was in the works for months finally came through. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 02, 2010, 11:40:29 PM

So let's start there and the definitions out of the way before I can answer the rest of your post. 

Way to avoid the central issue by picking out one word and trying to dispute what the definition is, when you knew full well what I meant. How about we start with your response to the following...

How is your supposed continued 'support' of MU's basketball program anything but tacit endorsement of Buzz Williams' squirmy unethical behavior you claim to despise so much?

Or, do you first need me to explain what the meaning of 'is' is?

No Navin, I didn't know what you meant which is why I asked.  I also didn't avoid anything and clearly said I would address the rest of your post once I understood what the heck you were saying.

I'm in the car now, I'll answer your post later this morning when I'm not on the iPhone

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 02, 2010, 11:42:35 PM
Yup...but not the same thing they did with Newbill, but of course there was a reason for that......the on again off again Wilson transfer that was in the works for months finally came through. 

What was your reaction when MU did it to Saunders just days before school was scheduled to start? I honestly don't know what you said at the time so I'm curious to your thoughts.

I don't know all the facts around either the Saunders or Newbill situations (only a few people do).  I generally don't like oversigning or jettisoning players but since I don't know exactly what happened it is hard for me to make judgements about what happened in either case.  Of course, you (and many others) don't have the same standard and rush to judgement based on speculation and on the comments of whoever is on your side of the fence while dismissing the comments that contradict your stance.

Could you elaborate on your supposed inside knowledge of the possibility of Jamil Wilson transferring and accusations that MU tampered with him?  I'm intrigued as to what you have heard in regards to this subject. 

Quote from: jmayer1 on December 03, 2010, 10:24:47 AM
What was your reaction when MU did it to Saunders just days before school was scheduled to start? I honestly don't know what you said at the time so I'm curious to your thoughts.

I don't know all the facts around either the Saunders or Newbill situations (only a few people do).  I generally don't like oversigning or jettisoning players but since I don't know exactly what happened it is hard for me to make judgements about what happened in either case.  Of course, you (and many others) don't have the same standard and rush to judgement based on speculation and on the comments of whoever is on your side of the fence while dismissing the comments that contradict your stance.

Could you elaborate on your supposed inside knowledge of the possibility of Jamil Wilson transferring and accusations that MU tampered with him?  I'm intrigued as to what you have heard in regards to this subject. 

Chicos is a changed man. When Saunders was 86ed by TC, he was miffed not at all. His "conscience" regarding matters of this type miraculously came to him the day Buzz was hired. That event was evidently a "St Paul knocked off his horse on the road to Damascus" moment for him. Or proof of an agenda. You decide.

Quote from: jmayer1 on December 03, 2010, 10:24:47 AM
What was your reaction when MU did it to Saunders just days before school was scheduled to start? I honestly don't know what you said at the time so I'm curious to your thoughts.

I'll turn to the time machine to answer that for chicos.  It seems that it was no big deal, it was just that MU did not have a spot for him - lol.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=3655.msg30979#msg30979

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 31, 2007, 01:09:00 PM
Are MU's academic standards that much higher than Duq's?


Duq had a spot, we didn't.  DS' former coach is on their staff now.  If we had a spot, safe to say DS would probably be on the team here.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on December 03, 2010, 10:38:02 AM
I'll turn to the time machine to answer that for chicos.  It seems that it was no big deal, it was just that MU did not have a spot for him - lol.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=3655.msg30979#msg30979

I'd say that's pretty damning.

How many times do I have to say it.  I admitted as such a few months ago....things change.  I used to think Mike Dukakis was great and abortion no big deal.  There are lots of things in life that people change opinions on...this just in.

I also said, CLEARLY, that those two situations were not the same, even though you guys want to conveniently force them into a nice packaged comparison tool.  One was not admitted to the university.  The other hadn't even been considered yet (no application sent in, but had no grade issues and would have been admitted).  One guy was busted for drugs possession, the other guy...well he was just in the way and a holding place until we got the transfer we wanted, which was in the works for months so why did we bother to sign him in the first place?

Ah yes, context and details....always those damn pesky details.  The comparisons are not the same no matter how hard you try.

The great irony, of course, is we should have kept Saunders and got rid of Hazel (or was it Trend?), but that's not what we did.  We got rid of the better player.  What would Buzz have done...get rid of the better player or the worse player that did nothing wrong?

But yes, people change opinions on things.  

Rocky...thanks for the time machine...I did the EXACT same thing a few months ago and was completely above board showing everyone what I said back then and linked to the discussion.  Nothing to hide at all my friend.  In fact there were a few other links as well that I provided.

Here are the ones you missed

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=4512.msg37495#msg37495

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=4112.msg34287#msg34287



Nothing "damning" either, I look back at what Crean did and it was wrong.  I look back at what Buzz did, and it is ALSO wrong...I'd argue that one was MORE wrong than the other, but they were both wrong.  It's one thing to kick a kid to the curb that was arrested on drug possession and NOT ADMITTED to the university vs kicking a kid to the curb that had no grade issues, would have been admitted, had no arrest record, etc.  But some of you apparently don't like those pesky details.

Carry on.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 02, 2010, 07:41:06 PM
Big frickin' deal. Where are they gonna find someone for this year on Dec 2? LOL

Kind of like where is Newbill going to find a high major offer when all the high major offers are spoken for...kind of like that?  LOL

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 03, 2010, 08:43:50 AM
Way to avoid the central issue by picking out one word and trying to dispute what the definition is, when you knew full well what I meant. How about we start with your response to the following...

How is your supposed continued 'support' of MU's basketball program anything but tacit endorsement of Buzz Williams' squirmy unethical behavior you claim to despise so much?

Or, do you first need me to explain what the meaning of 'is' is?

Navin, do you understand how ONE WORD, as you like to dismiss it, can be central to the entire context?  You said that I had on many occasions \ comments stated Buzz was an idiot.  I never have that I can recall, let alone many times.  So I do take umbrage to that.  I happen to think Buzz is very smart, in fact smarter than he lets on.  Sometimes he goes into his Aw Shucks Gomer Pyle "I'm just some regular coach from the South and I don't understand all this stuff"....not buying it, he's a very smart guy who is consumed with understanding every detail of his business.  That's what he is, an obsessive compulsive (his words, not mine) on this stuff.

So instead of getting defensive, how about a simple apology from you clearing me of ever calling him a cretin, an idiot, dumb, retarded, etc....he's not nor did I ever say it.  Thanks

How is your supposed continued 'support' of MU's basketball program anything but tacit endorsement of Buzz Williams' squirmy unethical behavior you claim to despise so much?

Let me put this in an example that hopefully will translate well.  If I was against the Iraq War but still loved the United States was I tacitly supporting the administration in that war?  Should I have moved to Canada until the war is over?    When the Toyota braking scandal came out (which of course was later proven to be wrong but that's another issue), should I as a Toyota owner have stopped using my vehicle, stopped paying my car payment, etc, for fear that I was somehow supporting Toyota and their "cover-up"?

I can give you dozens more examples, but I think you can see where I'm coming from.

I love Marquette University. I love Marquette basketball.  I poured my sole into that place for 10 years (student and employee) and to this day MU is still using many of the policies, creations that were done during that tenure  I'm very proud of that....especially considering the shoestring budget we had compared to now and the fact the team was not very good.  What you seem to be saying is that if I support MU basketball it means I support EVERYTHING that MU basketball does, players, coaches, etc?  Well, that's just plain wrong just as it is with the other examples I listed above.  It's a silly notion on all levels.  

Maybe Rocky can help you with the time machine and read me blasting Tom Crean for having Jason Rabideaux on his staff, or signing the UWM deal, or how he could have such totally inept plays at the end of a half\game (i.e Dayton game, etc).  

I want Buzz Williams to be successful at Marquette University.  I hope you understand that.  I don't think you do.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 03, 2010, 02:01:22 PM
 I poured my sole into that place for 10 years

So... is your foot (or fish?) OK?  

In your little 'hate the Iraq war but love the country' example... no, you shouldn't move to Canada until the war is over.  But, you also shouldn't show up at the funeral of dead American soldiers and protest and scream and complain in the face of the soldiers' families.  That is the issue.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 03, 2010, 01:47:14 PM
Kind of like where is Newbill going to find a high major offer when all the high major offers are spoken for...kind of like that?  LOL

Kind of like where is Saunders going to find a high major offer when all the high major offers are spoken for...kind of like that? LOL

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 03, 2010, 01:15:25 PM
Nothing "damning" either, I look back at what Crean did and it was wrong.  I look back at what Buzz did, and it is ALSO wrong...I'd argue that one was MORE wrong than the other, but they were both wrong.  It's one thing to kick a kid to the curb that was arrested on drug possession and NOT ADMITTED to the university vs kicking a kid to the curb that had no grade issues, would have been admitted, had no arrest record, etc.  But some of you apparently don't like those pesky details.

Carry on.

None of the facts have changed in the Saunders situation since the day MU said Saudners would not be admitted to Marquette.  However, at that time you said "Duq had a spot, we didn't.  DS' former coach is on their staff now.  If we had a spot, safe to say DS would probably be on the team here." So, at that time, you clearly thought that not admitting Saunders was simply done because we didn't have room for him (I agree). 

I also agree that people's expectations, morals, values...etc may change over time, but I don't see how someone's logic, or lack thereof, would change.  3 years ago you logically assumed that Saunders was not let into MU becuase we had no room at the inn.  Now you are backtracking and saying it was due to his arrest or academics, but nothing has changed, what gives? Have you rationally looked at the exact same facts and come to a completely different conclusion.

I'm glad that you have stated what MU did to Saunders was wrong.  Would you feel beter if MU had come out and said that Newbill was not going to be admitted to MU? Would MU have then been less wrong in comparison to the Saunders case since they let Newbill know this 2 months sooner? Saunders was subsequentlly admitted to Duquesne, Newbill was subsequently submitted to Southern Mississippi.  I think these 2 situations are very similar, except that in Saunders' case, MU had already oversigned; while in Newbill's case, MU wanted to sign another guy.  Maybe MU should have taken the Wilson transfer/comittment and then waited until August 27th to let Newbill know that he would not be admitted?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 03, 2010, 02:01:22 PM

Maybe Rocky can help you with the time machine and read me blasting Tom Crean for having Jason Rabideaux on his staff

Only a guy as radioactive as Rabideaux would put up with the a-hole! And I said as much over and over!

Quote from: Jay Bee on December 03, 2010, 02:09:51 PM
So... is your foot (or fish?) OK?  

In your little 'hate the Iraq war but love the country' example... no, you shouldn't move to Canada until the war is over.  But, you also shouldn't show up at the funeral of dead American soldiers and protest and scream and complain in the face of the soldiers' families.  That is the issue.

I would do neither....of course I supported the Iraq War and still do, but that's beside the point. 

Let's cut to the chase, there are people on this board that want nothing but 24/7 fanboys here that are in lockstep and that's it.  They will 100% of the time do what you did with Brett Favre...turn a blind eye, blame everyone else (i.e. recruits, there families, etc), never question anything.

Sorry, not going to be that person.  Never have been and never will be.

I want Buzz to succeed at Marquette, you keep ignoring that.  But if he (or any other coach) is doing some things that are wrong and damaging MU, I'll say it.  Just like I did with TC when it was warranted.

Quote from: jmayer1 on December 03, 2010, 02:31:24 PM
Kind of like where is Saunders going to find a high major offer when all the high major offers are spoken for...kind of like that? LOL

Yeah, Duquense is High Major 

(http://cjc.org.nz/f/public/style_emoticons/default/facepalm.gif)

Quote from: jmayer1 on December 03, 2010, 02:49:23 PM
None of the facts have changed in the Saunders situation since the day MU said Saudners would not be admitted to Marquette.  However, at that time you said "Duq had a spot, we didn't.  DS' former coach is on their staff now.  If we had a spot, safe to say DS would probably be on the team here." So, at that time, you clearly thought that not admitting Saunders was simply done because we didn't have room for him (I agree).  

Was it?  Or was it also a way for the University and the Athletic department to sweep under the rug about a guy that was caught with drugs?

Quote from: jmayer1 on December 03, 2010, 02:49:23 PM
I also agree that people's expectations, morals, values...etc may change over time, but I don't see how someone's logic, or lack thereof, would change.  3 years ago you logically assumed that Saunders was not let into MU becuase we had no room at the inn.  Now you are backtracking and saying it was due to his arrest or academics, but nothing has changed, what gives? Have you rationally looked at the exact same facts and come to a completely different conclusion.

No, you obviously didn't read all of the other posts.  Yes, in THAT post I said that but I also that this was a way for MU to slide this under the rug because of the drug situation.  You're also conveniently forgetting about the whole DJ going pro situation as well, which led to the over signing in the first place.  That's why over signing happened 9 months prior.  Again, totally different circumstances.  Newbill was signed to a LOI full well knowing that MU was working on that transfer with Wilson at the same time.  WTF were we doing signing him when that was in the works?  That's a lot different than taking on Saunders back in November with the understanding DJ was leaving 9 months letter.  Again, those pesky little details.  I don't like what MU did and think it was wrong in both situations, but the circumstances are entirely different yet you refuse to accept them as such.  Why?

Quote from: jmayer1 on December 03, 2010, 02:49:23 PM
I'm glad that you have stated what MU did to Saunders was wrong.  Would you feel beter if MU had come out and said that Newbill was not going to be admitted to MU?
Would MU have then been less wrong in comparison to the Saunders case since they let Newbill know this 2 months sooner? Saunders was subsequentlly admitted to Duquesne, Newbill was subsequently submitted to Southern Mississippi.  I think these 2 situations are very similar, except that in Saunders' case, MU had already oversigned; while in Newbill's case, MU wanted to sign another guy.  Maybe MU should have taken the Wilson transfer/comittment and then waited until August 27th to let Newbill know that he would not be admitted?

No, that would have been a chicken crap response because the kid had the grades to get in.

Secondly, Newbill could have gone to another Big East school but because we signed him, he was screwed in that regard...his Big East days were over.  Because we cut him loose late in the recruiting game, he was also screwed.  Do you think this kid wanted to go to Southern Mississippi?  Please.  ::)  Did Saunders want to go to Duquense...nope...but at least in that incident he has himself to blame.  He wasn't admitted and he got caught with drugs. He was also screwed with timing, but he is primary cause of that situation through HIS actions.  Thus the two situations are TOTALLY DIFFERENT!!!!

Newbill's crime was signing a LOI and either totally not understanding his offer (which can't be conditional as that's ILLEGAL) or some other reason which has yet to pass the sniff test.

Saunders crime was an actual crime...he was busted for drug possession....and he was not admitted to the university.  

Please tell me you understand the differences.  Please tell me why you keep comparing the two situations?  THEY ARE NOT THE SAME

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 03, 2010, 03:54:33 PM
Yeah, Duquense is High Major 

(http://cjc.org.nz/f/public/style_emoticons/default/facepalm.gif)

????

Neither Duquense or Southern Miss is a high major.

Quote from: jmayer1 on December 03, 2010, 04:14:12 PM
????

Neither Duquense or Southern Miss is a high major.

Exactly

Both were screwed out of that opportunity.  One by his own actions (poor grades, drug possession), the other because he signed a LOI (no criminal issue, no grades issue) and got bumped for someone else.

Both situations suck, one sucks a lot more.

Insufferable.

Quote from: Jay Bee on December 03, 2010, 04:20:43 PM
Insufferable.

Your approach in trying to compare two situations that were not alike to prove a point and keep your Platinum Status fanboism...I agree.  Insufferable.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 03, 2010, 04:06:16 PM
Was it?  Or was it also a way for the University and the Athletic department to sweep under the rug about a guy that was caught with drugs?


No, you obviously didn't read all of the other posts.  Yes, in THAT post I said that but I also that this was a way for MU to slide this under the rug because of the drug situation.  You're also conveniently forgetting about the whole DJ going pro situation as well, which led to the over signing in the first place.  That's why over signing happened 9 months prior.  Again, totally different circumstances.  Newbill was signed to a LOI full well knowing that MU was working on that transfer with Wilson at the same time.  WTF were we doing signing him when that was in the works?  That's a lot different than taking on Saunders back in November with the understanding DJ was leaving 9 months letter.  Again, those pesky little details.  I don't like what MU did and think it was wrong in both situations, but the circumstances are entirely different yet you refuse to accept them as such.  Why?

No, that would have been a chicken crap response because the kid had the grades to get in.

Secondly, Newbill could have gone to another Big East school but because we signed him, he was screwed in that regard...his Big East days were over.  Because we cut him loose late in the recruiting game, he was also screwed.  Do you think this kid wanted to go to Southern Mississippi?  Please.  ::)  Did Saunders want to go to Duquense...nope...but at least in that incident he has himself to blame.  He wasn't admitted and he got caught with drugs. He was also screwed with timing, but he is primary cause of that situation through HIS actions.  Thus the two situations are TOTALLY DIFFERENT!!!!

Newbill's crime was signing a LOI and either totally not understanding his offer (which can't be conditional as that's ILLEGAL) or some other reason which has yet to pass the sniff test.

Saunders crime was an actual crime...he was busted for drug possession....and he was not admitted to the university.  

Please tell me you understand the differences.  Please tell me why you keep comparing the two situations?  THEY ARE NOT THE SAME

I didn't go through and read all of your responses on this subject, I don't want to waste my time and effort doing that. I am referring to the post that Rocky linked to only.  In that post you made it clear that you thought he would have been on the team had there been a spot open.  You are now doing a complete 180 on that stance, despite the fact that none of the facts have changed, stating that DJ not going pro, his grades, or his arrest were reasons why he was not admitted.  That has nothing to do with my question so please stop bringinng those up.  Do you no longer hold that same viewpoint that Saunders would have been on the team if there was a spot open? Yes or No?  If you don't hold that same viewpoint any longer that's fine, I just want to be clear on your current opinion.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 03, 2010, 04:16:13 PM
Exactly

Both were screwed out of that opportunity.  One by his own actions (poor grades, drug possession), because MU oversigned, otherwise he would have been on the team, the other because he signed a LOI (no criminal issue, no grades issue) and got bumped for someone else.

Both situations suck, one sucks a lot more as the player found out only days before classes were set to start.

Fixed it for you based on your comments.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 03, 2010, 01:47:14 PM
Kind of like where is Newbill going to find a high major offer when all the high major offers are spoken for...kind of like that?  LOL

Actually nothing like that at all, unless June just morphed into December. LOL

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 03, 2010, 01:15:25 PM
How many times do I have to say it.  I admitted as such a few months ago....things change.  I used to think Mike Dukakis was great and abortion no big deal.  There are lots of things in life that people change opinions on...this just in.

I guess it's possible that a 40+ guy could do a complete 180 on the ethics of these situations, but here's where your history does you in. Thousands of posts on TC, most of which praise and/or defend him. Hundreds (thousands?) of posts on Buzz, the vast majority being negative. Similar situations, three years apart. Crean gets a total pass from you, Buzz gets absolutely villified. Sorry, too much coincidence for me.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 03, 2010, 03:53:46 PM
I want Buzz to succeed at Marquette, you keep ignoring that.  But if he (or any other coach) is doing some things that are wrong and damaging MU, I'll say it.  Just like I did with TC when it was warranted.

I think most would argue that he is succeeding to this point. You already have said very clearly that he is doing things that are wrong or "stupid" and damaging to MU, so why would you want him to succeed? you say he's doing things the wrong way, yet you want him to succeed...Do you see how that doesn't make any sense? If I believed what you believe, I wouldn't want him around to risk damaging the program for years to come.

Quote from: jmayer1 on December 03, 2010, 04:30:23 PM
Fixed it for you based on your comments.

So let me understand this, the fact he was not admitted to the university and was arrested for drugs had nothing to do with Saunders not coming to MU?

And sorry, Saunders shots were limited by what he had done...his own actions.  Newbill's shots were limited because he had the audacity to believe in our staff and trusted them so he signed a letter of intent.

Big Difference.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 03, 2010, 05:40:54 PM
Actually nothing like that at all, unless June just morphed into December. LOL

He found out in June (June 30th)...all high major offers for this season were gone, including an entire conference (the Big East) because he signed a NLI.  June he finds out, school starts in late August....what high major offer is out there July 1st?  Basically none.  Both kids were screwed on timing, only one was screwed by his actions and the other by.....

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Did-Marquette-put-winning-before-ethics-by-cutti?urn=ncaab-252690

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 03, 2010, 05:59:16 PM
I guess it's possible that a 40+ guy could do a complete 180 on the ethics of these situations, but here's where your history does you in. Thousands of posts on TC, most of which praise and/or defend him. Hundreds (thousands?) of posts on Buzz, the vast majority being negative. Similar situations, three years apart. Crean gets a total pass from you, Buzz gets absolutely villified. Sorry, too much coincidence for me.

Again you are dishonest, just like you were the other day with your wisecrack about the JUCO 7 footer at IU and your slur toward me pertaining to that situation, but of course you still haven't corrected that post.  Shameful.  

You read what you want.

The vast majority of my posts are not negative of Buzz.  Of course if I were to type a post that said "Buzz likes Ice Cream" you would state that is negative.  That's the problem, when you play psychologist like you do, you get to decide what is negative and what isn't...funny how that works in your brain.  Take a look at my last 100 posts, 1000 posts, last 5000 posts....you're telling me the "vast majority" are negative on Buzz? Please.  So beyond reality. Shameful slur.

Look at this thread alone, the first 12 posts I made it in are not negative to Buzz at all, most don't even talk about the man (does that mean it's negative in your eyes).  The first two pages, one post was joking about Buzz being a beautiful man....1 of 15...that's sure a "vast majority".   ::)

The first "negative" post came at post 54...and it was an opinion (kicking the kid to the curb) that is held by many people, including some sports journalists. Vast majority baby....vast majority.  

(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/3377/giovannifacepalmtw2.jpg)

Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 03, 2010, 06:05:53 PM
I think most would argue that he is succeeding to this point. You already have said very clearly that he is doing things that are wrong or "stupid" and damaging to MU, so why would you want him to succeed? you say he's doing things the wrong way, yet you want him to succeed...Do you see how that doesn't make any sense? If I believed what you believe, I wouldn't want him around to risk damaging the program for years to come.

READ AGAIN.  I said WHEN he does things that are damaging to MU.  But you make it sound like I say every move he makes is damaging, every time he talks, etc.  

That's the disconnect Navin.  It's not an all or nothing like you want to make it out to be.  When he does things that generate articles on CBS Sports, Yahoo Sports, Philadelphia newspapers, message boards, etc because of his actions...yes, I'd call that damaging.  Apparently even Buzz realized it because he said "I know I lost some of you with that one".  Why would he say that if it wasn't a decision that he, indeed, did lose some folks for that decision? 

Do you have kids?  I'm being serious, do you have kids?  Do you ever yell at them, possibly spank them?  Are you ever angry at them because they did something wrong?  Do you ever have to correct them or show them that some of their actions can be damaging?  Does that mean you HATE your kids?  Does that mean you don't want your kids to be successful?  Does that mean you love your kids any less?

Think about it for a minute before you respond...seriously, think about it.  This isn't black and white like you want to make it out.  It's a ludicrous argument you are trying to concoct.  

Character revealed.  Over and over.  Again and again.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 03, 2010, 03:53:46 PM
 
Let's cut to the chase, there are people on this board that want nothing but 24/7 fanboys here that are in lockstep and that's it.  They will 100% of the time do what you did with Brett Favre...turn a blind eye, blame everyone else (i.e. recruits, there families, etc), never question anything.

Sorry, not going to be that person.  Never have been and never will be.

Chico's, I agree with you a lot of the time, and I too don't want to be a blind fanboy.

But, let's just boil this down and get it over with:

You feel that TC gets unreasonably roasted, while Buzz is given a free pass on a lot of stuff.

Several posters around here feel you unreasonably roast Buzz while giving TC a free pass on a lot of stuff.

That's it.

Agree to disagree and move on everybody.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 03, 2010, 04:16:13 PM
Exactly

Both were screwed out of that opportunity.  One by his own actions (poor grades, drug possession), the other because he signed a LOI (no criminal issue, no grades issue) and got bumped for someone else.

Both situations suck, one sucks a lot more.

Damian Saunders was not screwed by his own actions. Tom Crean himself admitted that the misdemeanor marijuana charge against him played no part in his being canned. The grades issue is total bs as Damian was FULLY QUALIFIED by the NCAA.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 04, 2010, 04:49:35 PM
Damian Saunders was not screwed by his own actions. Tom Crean himself admitted that the misdemeanor marijuana charge against him played no part in his being canned. The grades issue is total bs as Damian was FULLY QUALIFIED by the NCAA.

Why didn't he keep Saunders and cut the less valuable player?  What would Buzz have done?

Damian's own actions made it easier to decide who was going to Creaned \ Buzzcut.  In both cases, it shouldn't happened.  Again, the comparison between the two is as far away as Pluto to the Sun.

In one case MU signed a kid thinking Dominic James would be gone 6 months later, the kid got busted, the kid was not admitted to the university (also per Crean...so what you're saying is you believe Crean on the marijuana but not on the admissions part...convenient) vs a kid that was signed FULL KNOWING that we were working on getting a transfer in the fold at the same time.

"Unfortunately, Damian won't be able to be accepted at Marquette,"  "His final grades and test scores were not at a level that was deemed appropriate for Marquette University. He's not through the (NCAA) Clearinghouse at this point. But this was more of a Marquette situation because of where he grades were at."

"I never really felt, after hearing the different facts in the story, that he really did anything that wrong, except choose to be with the wrong people at the wrong place at the wrong time. To my knowledge, it's already been taken care of. This was totally an academic issue."

Not even close to the same thing, but nevertheless they are both wrong.  One is just worse than the other in terms of degrees.  Damian made his own bed.  If he wasn't caught with drugs, he likely would have been on the team and someone else would have been Creaned \ Buzz Cut.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 04, 2010, 05:00:45 PM
a kid that was signed FULL KNOWING that we were working on getting a transfer in the fold at the same time.

obviously, i know wilson transferred to marquette. but i'm not enough in the insiders' loop to know things that are going on much before they are announced publicly.  is there any article or information out there that states we were working on wilson's transfer for however long before it was announced?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 03, 2010, 06:56:12 PM
Again you are dishonest, just like you were the other day with your wisecrack about the JUCO 7 footer at IU and your slur toward me pertaining to that situation, but of course you still haven't corrected that post.  Shameful.  

You read what you want.

The vast majority of my posts are not negative of Buzz.  Of course if I were to type a post that said "Buzz likes Ice Cream" you would state that is negative.  That's the problem, when you play psychologist like you do, you get to decide what is negative and what isn't...funny how that works in your brain.  Take a look at my last 100 posts, 1000 posts, last 5000 posts....you're telling me the "vast majority" are negative on Buzz? Please.  So beyond reality. Shameful slur.

Look at this thread alone, the first 12 posts I made it in are not negative to Buzz at all, most don't even talk about the man (does that mean it's negative in your eyes).  The first two pages, one post was joking about Buzz being a beautiful man....1 of 15...that's sure a "vast majority".   ::)

The first "negative" post came at post 54...and it was an opinion (kicking the kid to the curb) that is held by many people, including some sports journalists. Vast majority baby....vast majority.  

(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/3377/giovannifacepalmtw2.jpg)

You're misrepresenting my point, as usual. When I say that the vast majority of your posts on Buzz are negative, that necessarily assumes that the posts are A)on Buzz and B)that you take a positve or negative position on him in the post. The ones on direct TV or about Buzz eating ice cream or otherwise nuetral ones don't count as part of the sample. But go ahead and continue with your slurs and personnel attacks on me. I get that the more indefensible your position is the louder you scream and feign outrage - used to bother me but it's so common I'm growing immune.

You would still be wrong Lenny. The vast majority of my posts about Buzz are not negative.  Just do an audit, it's not hard.

I apologize to the board upfront...but it is interesting to me to see the Crean Pissing Match has spread to other school internet sites.  The Baylor v. IU rift makes our Crean Bashing seem tame, even trying to spread this virally to other B10 sites like Iowa and Illinois.  Oh my...on the Perea recruitment.  Note:  Baylor is hardly innocent here but there has apparently been bashing back and forth. For the record, I believe Crean is clean but all D1 recruiting is "squirmy", even Izzo it seems.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

"I heard the NCAA is gone (from Baylor). They are taking a look at the AHOPE foundation that took in $408,000 in contributions over the last few years and has $377 in cash on the books. I found that out by searching the 990 forms on guidestone.org. Most foundations with hundreds of thousands of dollars in contributions keep more than $400 in assets. Sure sounds like the needs are presented (probably to IU boosters); donations are made (probably by IU boosters) and then boom- the money goes out. Sure would love to get a hold of the donor list to this foundation.

The foundation is run by IU alum Mark Adams- AAU coach for Indiana Elite. There are 7 or 8 commitments from Indiana Select kids to Indiana University where Mark Adams' son Drew Adams is the video coordinator. Hanner Perea was one of those commitments. Some of these kids are Indiana homegrown. Some are brought in from Africa and one special talent from Colombia (Perea).

The website for AHOPE (African Hoop Opportunities Providing an Education) claims it is a non-profit organization that was founded in 2004. The mission is to provide deserving student athletes a seamless process of obtaining a student visa, transportation to the United States, making sure they are acclimated to their new environment and providing them with an opportunity to receive an outstanding education.

Also on the board of the AHOPE foundation is IU alum Alan Huss- head coach of La Lumiere HS (where Hanner Perea is enrolled). Nothing wrong with a pipeline from an AAU program to a university as long as money and illegal benefits aren't being used to induce the players to sign with IU. If IU alumni are providing the donations to this foundation (methinks they are) and the money is being used to bring talented players to the US where they end up under the control of two IU alumni and then commit to IU, we got issues...

It would be an abuse of non profit tax law to form a non-profit foundation and then just use it as a funnel to feed your favorite college basketball team (where you hide behind privacy laws to keep your donor list secret). The IRS should be interested in auditing that. The NCAA should also be interested in auditing that- getting an accounting of every donation to that foundation and matching those donations against IU boosters to make sure they don't match.

Our end of this deal was way overblown by the media. We self-reported. Someone leaked it to the media. Might have been IU to seal the deal on Perea- he committed to them. Might have been the NCAA to have the media do some of their leg work for them. Who knows? It was a PR black-eye for us but could work out to our benefit as they have snooped around and found a program that is doing things the right way.

Hopefully, Indiana is as well. I'd hate to see a once proud program like Indiana that has been battered by NCAA violations in recent years end up being set back again for NCAA violations. For all the accusations that their fans and media tools (like Dan Dakich) lobby at Scott Drew, Drew has a squeaky clean record. So does his dad. Indiana has had some issues in the past few years and Crean is probably feeling the pressure to win quickly. Hopefully he isn't taking shortcuts to win."

http://www.baylorfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204559&page=1

Been addressed multiple times about Ahope on Hoosiernation and other sites.  IU is in the NCAA's backyard...literally.