MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Tugg Speedman on October 17, 2010, 07:49:23 AM
-
http://ilprepbullseye.com/page59.html
(at the bottom ...)
We still believe that there is a strong possibility that 6'8 class of 2011 forward Mike Shaw from De LaSalle Institute in Chicago ends up waiting until the spring to sign a letter of intent, a factor that will very much hinge on Shaw's situation with respect to taking the ACT. While there has been countless speculation on the part of others as to who Shaw's leaders might be, we would certainly not count out DePaul University at this point. In fact, if Shaw's recruitment were to go into the spring, we actually believe that DePaul is one school whose chances could be enhanced even further.
-
DePaul has always been in the picture with Shaw.
That being said, I know we poo pooed his academic issues because he has yet to take the ACT, but I read this a couple of days ago too.
http://www.illinihq.com/blogs/recruiting_wrap/2010/10/12/hs_coach_still_no_set_timetable_for
"White also confirmed Shaw has not yet taken the ACT. He said Shaw isn't much concerned by that fact, as he still has three or so dates he could take it on. Of greater importance is when he's prepared to take it, as Shaw is finishing up some junior-level classes and could get some tutoring so he has the best chance for success, White said."
So we will have to see how this progresses.
-
DePaul has always been in the picture with Shaw.
I thought I read here it was either MU or Illinois. In any event, DePaul and Oliver Purnell have are still in the hunt.
I wonder how he liked DePaul's midnight madness?
-
I really do not understand the logic in waiting to take the ACT. Take it early and know where you stand. There is no penalty for not passing it the first time.
-
As I recall, MU and Illinois were listed as favorites recently, but West Virginia and DePaul have both been mentioned frequently. Considering not much has come out lately, my guess is any of the four could emerge with Shaw.
-
I got blasted when I posted that academics " may" be a factor in the Shaw decision.
I now seems that either Shaw, or his handlers, are very concerned also. If they are so confident about his ability to get a score that would allow him to verbal why has he not taken the test ? He's not looking at an Ivy is he?
-
I got blasted when I posted that academics " may" be a factor in the Shaw decision.
You got blasted because you said it might determine where he would go. He will be admitted wherever he chooses...the academics issue is more about his eligibility.
-
Does Buzz hold an open scholarship until the spring waiting for Shaw to decide?
-
Does Buzz hold an open scholarship until the spring waiting for Shaw to decide?
I'd rather hold an open scholarship than end up with another Newbill situation. No need to take a commit from a guy if you have your eye on someone else. If McDonald is available and willing to commit, I think you sooner take him now than waiting for Shaw, but if he goes elsewhere, Shaw waits until Spring and goes somewhere else, there will still be jucos available that could fill the scholarship.
-
"White also confirmed Shaw has not yet taken the ACT. He said Shaw isn't much concerned by that fact, as he still has three or so dates he could take it on. Of greater importance is when he's prepared to take it, as Shaw is finishing up some junior-level classes and could get some tutoring so he has the best chance for success, White said."
When I was in high school (having attended two since I moved between 10th and 11th grade), there were no "junior-level" classes at either. There were some classes you were supposed to take your freshman and sophomore years that were 99% freshman and sophomores, respectively. After that, there were no rules other than you had to graduate with 4 years of English and 3.5 of math. Even in that structure, the English and math classes I took my junior and senior years always had a mix of sophomores, juniors & seniors.
Maybe the two HS's I attended were anomalies, or maybe the curriculum has changed, but "junior-level" is not something I would use to describe a high school class (it seems more apropos in a post-secondary context). This leads me to believe:
1) Shaw is taking "junior college-level" classes
2) As a senior, he is taking a class or classes that kids normally take their junior year (which isn't necessarily bad)
3) He is retaking a class or classes he took his junior year (which could be or might seem bad on the surface, but might not be an issue if he passes this time around).
Of course, I want to give Shaw the benefit of the doubt until we hear something more concrete - two tidbits of information are merely a coincidence in my book. The fact that he hasn't taken the ACT isn't an issue; sure, it may defy conventional logic, but it isn't inherently bad. And the fact that he's taken "junior-level" classes could mean a number of things, some potentially bad, some potentially good.
I need one more unrelated tidbit of info before the possible "qualifying issues" becomes a trend IMO.
-
At this point, I say move on without Shaw. 2 things that are really begining to concern me.....
1. Postponing his decision until spring - this in combination with Mike's decision to not take the ACT until the last possible moment REALLY makes me question his academic status. Knowing you are going to be offered handfuls of scholarships by top D1 institutions, and knowing that you will need to qualify academically, why ANY athlete would delay the process is beyond me. If everything is truly ok, there would be no need for this postponement.
2. Mike's "Handlers" - throughout this recruitment there have been repeated references to his "handlers", ie. coaches/parents. I understand that there are always important people behind the scenes that want the best for their kid, but this circumstance seems a little more than just that. I hate to have a situation where it's more their decision, than Mike's.......which could be why he is having such a hard time making a decision a postponing. All we need is another overbearing parent (we all know who I'm referring to here).
Bottomline, if we have an opportunity to gain other quality players, take them. I don't want to waste a good opportunity on "hoping" for a wavering prospect.
-
I would move on also.
-
I don't see any reason to move on until we actually have others ready to commit.
Does anyone actually know that he is for sure delaying his decision until Spring? I have not heard anything other than speculation from the bullseye site about this. It seems like people are just taking that as fact because he didn't commit directly after Marquette Madness. There is still plenty of time left in the Fall period for him to make his decision.
-
I would move on also.
Considering all the time and energy the staff has put into Shaw, there is no reason to move on, until the Shaw camp says - Marquette, you are out of the mix.
At this point, I say move on without Shaw.
2. Mike's "Handlers" - throughout this recruitment there have been repeated references to his "handlers", ie. coaches/parents. I understand that there are always important people behind the scenes that want the best for their kid, but this circumstance seems a little more than just that. I hate to have a situation where it's more their decision, than Mike's.......which could be why he is having such a hard time making a decision a postponing. All we need is another overbearing parent (we all know who I'm referring to here).
Bottomline, if we have an opportunity to gain other quality players, take them. I don't want to waste a good opportunity on "hoping" for a wavering prospect.
Shaw's "handlers" are the Irvin family, and by all accounts they are in favor of him going to MU - it is the family that is rumored to be pushing for West Virginia or Illinois. MU being the "recommended" school by the Mac Irvin camp, is HUGE.
-
Considering all the time and energy the staff has put into Shaw, there is no reason to move on, until the Shaw camp says - Marquette, you are out of the mix.
Shaw's "handlers" are the Irvin family, and by all accounts they are in favor of him going to MU - it is the family that is rumored to be pushing for West Virginia or Illinois. MU being the "recommended" school by the Mac Irvin camp, is HUGE.
If it's true that the Mac Irvin camp is trying to push for MU then it would make NO sense to move on from Shaw...the Irvin family is the single most influential basketball family in Chicago...Purnell is doing everything possible to mend DePaul's relationship with the Irvin's and the Chicago Public League...Bruce Weber is firmly entrenched in the Chicago basketball landscape (just look at the list of Madness attendees this year)...Buzz and his staff need to do everything possible to stay involved with the Chicago pipeline of players.
So even if Shaw himself is losing interest, it's in MU's best interest to stay active for the sake of future Mac Irvin opportunities...IMO, of course
-
Shaw's "handlers" are the Irvin family, and by all accounts they are in favor of him going to MU - it is the family that is rumored to be pushing for West Virginia or Illinois. MU being the "recommended" school by the Mac Irvin camp, is HUGE.
This is my point exactly! He is a 17 year old kid that is being pulled in multiple directions. In the end, all schools are likely fine options with quality coaching staffs. Considering Mike is the one that will spend his next 4 years at the chosen University, he and he alone should have the final say on where he committs based on how he felt during all of the visits.
-
My concern is that he will end up ineligible anyways. The failure to take the ACT is a big red flag to me.
-
This is my point exactly! He is a 17 year old kid that is being pulled in multiple directions. In the end, all schools are likely fine options with quality coaching staffs. Considering Mike is the one that will spend his next 4 years at the chosen University, he and he alone should have the final say on where he committs based on how he felt during all of the visits.
Almost every top level recruit has "handlers" of some sort. They have high school coaches, AAU coaches, etc. They are going to have advice about where their game fits and what coaching style might be best for them. If we dismissed every prospect that took advice from these sources, we'd be a terrible basketball program.
Furthermore, you are oftentimes dealing with kids and parents who have never even been to college much less at the level of a D1 athlete. When any kids makes their college choice these days, they listen and seek the advice of their parents, teachers, friends, etc. Ultimately the kids is the one that has to make the decision.. Mac Irvin isn't going to dictate where Shaw goes, but he definately is going to give him advice like he did with Reggie Smith. Cutting ourself off from that would be the ultimate in stupidity.
-
Almost every top level recruit has "handlers" of some sort. They have high school coaches, AAU coaches, etc. They are going to have advice about where their game fits and what coaching style might be best for them. If we dismissed every prospect that took advice from these sources, we'd be a terrible basketball program.
Who said anything about dismissing every prospect that took advice from other sources? They all do.......but to varying degrees. Advice is one thing, being pointed in 1 direction from one party and in 1/2 directions from another part of your group is a completely different animal. OJ Mayo was pointed in 1 direction......those kids, you stay away from. Juan Anderson, for example, had help narrowing down his list to a final handful of schools that he ultimately got to choose from. I personally don't want to get involved with outside parties that have says in where kids go to school. It's dirty and I personally don't want to get in bed with that.......regardless of how many kids MU loses out on.
-
Who said anything about dismissing every prospect that took advice from other sources? They all do.......but to varying degrees. Advice is one thing, being pointed in 1 direction from one party and in 1/2 directions from another part of your group is a completely different animal. OJ Mayo was pointed in 1 direction......those kids, you stay away from. Juan Anderson, for example, had help narrowing down his list to a final handful of schools that he ultimately got to choose from. I personally don't want to get involved with outside parties that have says in where kids go to school. It's dirty and I personally don't want to get in bed with that.......regardless of how many kids MU loses out on.
The difference between the advice that Anderson got and the advice that Shaw is getting isn't all that great. And it's not "dirty" in any respect...unless we are doing something against the rules.
-
Who said anything about dismissing every prospect that took advice from other sources? They all do.......but to varying degrees. Advice is one thing, being pointed in 1 direction from one party and in 1/2 directions from another part of your group is a completely different animal. OJ Mayo was pointed in 1 direction......those kids, you stay away from. Juan Anderson, for example, had help narrowing down his list to a final handful of schools that he ultimately got to choose from. I personally don't want to get involved with outside parties that have says in where kids go to school. It's dirty and I personally don't want to get in bed with that.......regardless of how many kids MU loses out on.
I get where you are coming from...
But, let's face it, we all had "handlers" when we were 16/17 that assisted us in our college decision. For most kids, it's their parents and possibly siblings. For some others, it's uncles, coaches, school counselors, etc. etc.
I know that MU doesn't want a kid with some huge entourage, but let's be careful about using broad brush strokes when using the term "handlers" as it can mean a variety of things.
-
I get where you are coming from...
But, let's face it, we all had "handlers" when we were 16/17 that assisted us in our college decision. For most kids, it's their parents and possibly siblings. For some others, it's uncles, coaches, school counselors, etc. etc.
I know that MU doesn't want a kid with some huge entourage, but let's be careful about using broad brush strokes when using the term "handlers" as it can mean a variety of things.
Agreed. It all depends on the degree to which these people are involved. I'm not saying its anything illegal and in the end I have no clue how much anyone is involved so I will leave it up to Buzz to decide our fate.
-
I personally don't want to get involved with outside parties that have says in where kids go to school. It's dirty and I personally don't want to get in bed with that.......regardless of how many kids MU loses out on.
I think I understand the "spirit" of your post, but it may not be getting communicated effectively. I believe what you are saying is that for the sake of a kid - you want the kid to have the ultimate choice/authority/decision-making power as to where they choose to attend school. Think we all would agree. That said, there is NOTHING dirty about getting involved with kids who have "handlers," as virtually every kid does, especially those that are Top 100. Now are there a few "handlers" who are less than scrupulous - sure. Buzz knows where to draw the line, and which handlers to play ball with, and those to stay away from. In the case of Shaw - it's all good..the Irvin camp is fine.
-
According to Scout, WVU just got two verbals: PG Ryan Boatwright and F/C Pat Forsythe.
Does that mean the Shaw ship has sailed for WVU? Anybody know how many openings/commits they have for next year?
-
Boatright will be a great pg for Huggins.
To answer your question, WVU has 4 seniors and 4 2011 recruits, so it would appear they are full. I don't believe they have any walk-ons, but someone please correct me if I am wrong.
I am not sure if this means they will stop recruiting or not. I guess this is good news for us in terms of Shaw, but it does mean that a rival got stronger.
-
Maybe Huggins did not want to wait for Shaw until the spring and filled out his class. Does Illinois and others now wait or do the same?
-
Considering all the time and energy the staff has put into Shaw, there is no reason to move on, until the Shaw camp says - Marquette, you are out of the mix.
Shaw's "handlers" are the Irvin family, and by all accounts they are in favor of him going to MU - it is the family that is rumored to be pushing for West Virginia or Illinois. MU being the "recommended" school by the Mac Irvin camp, is HUGE.
The Irvin's reputation is checkered at best. If you talk to some in the know in Chicago it is much worse than that. One of the Irvins is a agent.
-
The Irvin's reputation is checkered at best. If you talk to some in the know in Chicago it is much worse than that. One of the Irvins is a agent.
Generally when people become the most successful in their field, there are always going to be some haters. The reality is the Irvins are big time players in the Chicago hoops scene, and some resent that, or have a jealousy toward that - due to their own personal agendas. With AAU basketball becoming the real recruiting "grounds" for high school basketball talent these days, kids always are going to have "handlers," a better word probably is "advisors."
-
Well I for one can wait. Shaw is a great prospect and I hope in the end he chooses MU.
-
Generally when people become the most successful in their field, there are always going to be some haters. The reality is the Irvins are big time players in the Chicago hoops scene, and some resent that, or have a jealousy toward that - due to their own personal agendas. With AAU basketball becoming the real recruiting "grounds" for high school basketball talent these days, kids always are going to have "handlers," a better word probably is "advisors."
The people I have talked to are in no way in competition with Irvins. It has nothing to do with the scenario you have fabricated.
I know nothing of Shaw's family or their motivations. However from the outside something does not feel right if the family is pushing in one direction and the Irvins another. What would be the Irvins motivation for getting in between family members? If it were the other way around and the family was leaning toward Marquette while the Irvins were pushing a different direction views here might be quite different. I also would suggest that there are few fans that are a little leery after the Maymon and Newbill situations with who and how they are dealing with people in recruiting. Fishing in muddy waters you never know what you may end up catching.
-
The people I have talked to are in no way in competition with Irvins. It has nothing to do with the scenario you have fabricated.
I know nothing of Shaw's family or their motivations. However from the outside something does not feel right if the family is pushing in one direction and the Irvins another. What would be the Irvins motivation for getting in between family members? If it were the other way around and the family was leaning toward Marquette while the Irvins were pushing a different direction views here might be quite different. I also would suggest that there are few fans that are a little leery after the Maymon and Newbill situations with who and how they are dealing with people in recruiting. Fishing in muddy waters you never know what you may end up catching.
Great post. I have no idea where an AAU coach gets off trying to push a player in a certain direction if his family wants another. Who do these guys think they are? You are absolutely right about how up in arms we'd all be if it were the other way around.
Perhaps the reason Shaw seemed so uninterested at and after Marquette Madness is because the Irvins were there. Maybe he is becoming offput by him trying to push him to MU, if that really is the case. Or maybe he was forced to go by Irvin and doesn't have much interest in MU anymore.
-
Just maybe the Irvins are a little shady, I am sure somebody can figure out what I am
saying!
-
The people I have talked to are in no way in competition with Irvins. It has nothing to do with the scenario you have fabricated.
I know nothing of Shaw's family or their motivations. However from the outside something does not feel right if the family is pushing in one direction and the Irvins another. What would be the Irvins motivation for getting in between family members? If it were the other way around and the family was leaning toward Marquette while the Irvins were pushing a different direction views here might be quite different. I also would suggest that there are few fans that are a little leery after the Maymon and Newbill situations with who and how they are dealing with people in recruiting. Fishing in muddy waters you never know what you may end up catching.
Yes - Badger fans such as yourself are concerned with Marquette's recruiting under Buzz Williams. Your post history speaks for itself Denny Crane..go crawl back in your hole.
-
Yes - Badger fans such as yourself are concerned with Marquette's recruiting under Buzz Williams. Your post history speaks for itself Denny Crane..go crawl back in your hole.
+1
-
The people I have talked to are in no way in competition with Irvins. It has nothing to do with the scenario you have fabricated.
I know nothing of Shaw's family or their motivations. However from the outside something does not feel right if the family is pushing in one direction and the Irvins another. What would be the Irvins motivation for getting in between family members? If it were the other way around and the family was leaning toward Marquette while the Irvins were pushing a different direction views here might be quite different. I also would suggest that there are few fans that are a little leery after the Maymon and Newbill situations with who and how they are dealing with people in recruiting. Fishing in muddy waters you never know what you may end up catching.
Denny...look at your example, Tim Maymon. There's as good of a reason as any to get between a kid and his family.
-
None of us really know what the situation with Shaw is, who's pushing him where, etc. The best we have is speculation from an anonymous source cited by the Bullseye guys. An anonymous source whose motivations for talking - and motivation for keeping himself anonymous - we don't know.
That said, it is not unusual, or even improper, for kids and families to rely on guidance from AAU coaches through the recruiting process. Most families have never gone through the whirlwind. Most high school coaches, with very few exceptions, go through it more than once every five years. AAU coaches, especially at a program like the Irvins', go through it every year with multiple kids. They really are the closest thing to experts for these kids and their families.
Obviously this can, and does, lead to improper and unethical behavior. But we shouldn't assume the mere fact a kid is taking advice from his AAU coaches somehow makes his recruitment "shady."
Lastly,anyone who believes Marquette is and should be above dealing with the Irvins, then we might as well forget about having any notable recruiting success in Chicago. Fact is, every Division I program in the Midwest - including the one in Madison - recruits Irvin players.
-
Great post. I have no idea where an AAU coach gets off trying to push a player in a certain direction if his family wants another. Who do these guys think they are? You are absolutely right about how up in arms we'd all be if it were the other way around.
Perhaps the reason Shaw seemed so uninterested at and after Marquette Madness is because the Irvins were there. Maybe he is becoming offput by him trying to push him to MU, if that really is the case. Or maybe he was forced to go by Irvin and doesn't have much interest in MU anymore.
A lot of reasons for an AAU coach to push in a different direction than the parents. Here is a few off the top of my head:
1. The Irvin family has place numerous players into high D1 schools. They have quite a bit of experience on seeing college coaches pitches vs. the reality once said player ends up on campus.
2. Overzealous family members - we all have them. Someone brought up Tim Maymon below - what if Jeronne's AAU coach had been running his recruitment from the start? Probably would have picked a different school to begin with and not lost a year of eligibility.
However, there are other reasons an AAU coach might push a kid in one direction, such as building a relationship with a school coach - i.e. if you take player A now, I'll push player B your way later. Or if I send you player A now, will you take some lower player B to fill out your bench later?
I have no idea why the Irvin's may favor MU, but I don't think it is fair to assume automatically that it is in the best or not best interest of the kid. A lot of moving pieces going on in a recruitment like this.
-
having been around the scene for awhile and also have a nephew that plays for the Mac Irvin Fire.
Everyone has an agenda ...some parents kid didnt get to play as much as the parent thought thay should so the coach is a loser, dirty, etc etc etc etc.
He beat our team too badly he is scum.....a kid left our program to play for his he is scum...he didnt want my kid even tho he is better than that kid...
I have heard so many stories i could write a book...usually about pretty good people being said usually or started usually by......parents.
is there some stuff that goes on that isnt the greatest....of course...but the Irvins no different than most grass roots sports organizations are good people that love the game and are trying to help kids. pretty simple.
My guess is the Irvins favor MU ( if they do in fact) becuase they think it would be the best fit for him. Nothing more nothing less.
-
IF Irvin is pushing Shaw to mu it very well could be that he feels that Buzz would be a good fit for him bball wise. Maybe the family doesn't see it that way or doesn't have a full appreciation of that. This is just speculation anyway.
-
IF Irvin is pushing Shaw to mu it very well could be that he feels that Buzz would be a good fit for him bball wise. Maybe the family doesn't see it that way or doesn't have a full appreciation of that. This is just speculation anyway.
You're right about it being all speculation, but all speculation is not equal. At least Dimes has some personal history with the Irvins and a knowledge of the terrain they travel. All Denny Crane has is his omnipresent anti-MU bigotry which he backs up with unsourced innuendo.
-
Yes - Badger fans such as yourself are concerned with Marquette's recruiting under Buzz Williams. Your post history speaks for itself Denny Crane..go crawl back in your hole.
When you can't attack the message attack the messenger.
In regards to Tim Maymon, they broke the mold. As stated I know nothing of Shaws family but to suggest that they may compare to Maymon would be far fetched.
A year ago I heard the same attacks when warning about Maymon and how things might not turn out so well for MU.
The truth is the Irvin's are shady. Have known that for over a decade. The silent majority would likely much prefer to be in the shoes of the schools the family is pushing rather than the school the Irvins are pushing.
-
Denny,
What can you tell me about Mike Naiditch? How does a guy from leafy Highland Park know a recruit, Michael Dunnigan, "from his early high school days"? How is it that he was just interested in the AAU scene before he decided to become a pro agent? How is it that he represents so many of Bo's players now? How does he know Howard Moore? Interesting that going back to Michael Finley, he was providing summer jobs for Badger players....
"Mike Naiditch, for whom Finley once worked for a summer at the highly charged Chicago Board of Options Exchange, describes him this way: “He’s a very smart, independent thinker. … He’s got much more than the basic building blocks to be successful in business. … He is highly motivated to achieve, and I think business is only one way he could do that if he wanted to. Basketball is another, and I’m sure there are many, many more.”
"Connections" are a bitch sometimes, eh Bucky? Let's see if I got this right: Alum, donar, AAU coach, agent, employer, street recruiter, friend of the program....hmmm. Did I miss any other Badger ties?
http://chucknowlen.com/Finley.html
-
When you can't attack the message attack the messenger.
In regards to Tim Maymon, they broke the mold. As stated I know nothing of Shaws family but to suggest that they may compare to Maymon would be far fetched.
A year ago I heard the same attacks when warning about Maymon and how things might not turn out so well for MU.
The truth is the Irvin's are shady. Have known that for over a decade. The silent majority would likely much prefer to be in the shoes of the schools the family is pushing rather than the school the Irvins are pushing.
The only jag trying to imply the Shaw situation is similar to the Maymon situation is you - but now you write that to compare the Shaw family to the Maymon family is far fetched? (Yet you say you don't know the Shaw family..whereas you've implied in the past you "knew" the Maymon family??) Talk about a mind fu_k!
Who is this silent majority you mention? Ever think a family who has NEVER dealt with a recruiting process for a high major talent, might not be as knowledeable as an AAU program who has sent multiple players to high-major programs in the last decade? Ever take into consideration that the Irvins believe Buzz get's the most out of his players - and would help Shaw maximize his talent..and also see that there is PT to be had right away at Marquette at the 4? Ever think that IF there are academic issues with Shaw...the family may prefer him to go to a school with a coach like Huggins who will "keep" you eligible no matter what the classroom performance? Lastly to quote Mike Irvin:
"In Marquette you have Buzz Williams, one of the up and coming great coaches in the game. With Buzz, he gets the most out of his players, and was the same energetic Buzz as he is on the phone. Buzz believes in himself and what he has to offer at Marquette, and that is what he basically relayed on the in-home visit.”
-
More on Shaw from Bullseye:
http://ilprepbullseye.com/page59.html
And Now Moving To Shaw
Another top-tier class of 2011 prospect whose recruitment is very much being affected by academics (although in an entirely different fashion) is Mike Shaw, the 6'8 forward from De LaSalle Institute. The bottom line is that this coming weekend will be THE most important weekend of Shaw's entire recruiting process. That is because Shaw will take the ACT for the first time on Saturday and then head to the University Of Illinois the following day on an official visit.
It appears as though one school that may now be out of the running for Shaw's services is West Virginia, as the Mountaineers are now out of scholarships in the 2011 class after landing a commitment from 6'6 forward Keaton Miles from Lincoln High School in Dallas yesterday. Shaw has also taken previous official visits to both DePaul and Marquette.
Knowing that Shaw's recruitment hinges largely on how certain things pan out with respect to his academic situation, here is how we see things shaping up: provided Shaw still takes the ACT this coming Saturday and ends up receiving a respectable score (it doesn't necessarily even have to be a qualifying score on the first attempt) we believe that he will end up committing and signing during the Fall signing period. If not, his recruitment goes into the spring and then things really become interesting.
We find it to be somewhat ironic that Randle and Shaw could end up closing out their recruitments right around the same time, with the possibility that both could make announcements by Halloween weekend. Will that be the case, will one end up biting before the other, or will circumstances dictate things being prolonged (at least for one of them) even further? Our only answer is that we are about to find out soon.
-
The only jag trying to imply the Shaw situation is similar to the Maymon situation is you - but now you write that to compare the Shaw family to the Maymon family is far fetched? (Yet you say you don't know the Shaw family..whereas you've implied in the past you "knew" the Maymon family??) Talk about a mind fu_k!
Who is this silent majority you mention? Ever think a family who has NEVER dealt with a recruiting process for a high major talent, might not be as knowledeable as an AAU program who has sent multiple players to high-major programs in the last decade? Ever take into consideration that the Irvins believe Buzz get's the most out of his players - and would help Shaw maximize his talent..and also see that there is PT to be had right away at Marquette at the 4? Ever think that IF there are academic issues with Shaw...the family may prefer him to go to a school with a coach like Huggins who will "keep" you eligible no matter what the classroom performance? Lastly to quote Mike Irvin:
"In Marquette you have Buzz Williams, one of the up and coming great coaches in the game. With Buzz, he gets the most out of his players, and was the same energetic Buzz as he is on the phone. Buzz believes in himself and what he has to offer at Marquette, and that is what he basically relayed on the in-home visit.”
You digress from attacking the messenger mode to name calling. Bravo!
I never compared the Shaw recruitment to the Maymon situation. That was another poster ( MUarmy81 ) that made that link. The context in which I brought up Maymon and Newbill was to point out that there are MU fans out there that are leery of any further drama. I pointed out quite the opposite of what you suggested in that it was unlikely the Shaw family was similar to Maymon.
I find your baseless claim that Huggins would keep a player eligible no matter what ironic.
-
Denny,
What can you tell me about Mike Naiditch? How does a guy from leafy Highland Park know a recruit, Michael Dunnigan, "from his early high school days"? How is it that he was just interested in the AAU scene before he decided to become a pro agent? How is it that he represents so many of Bo's players now? How does he know Howard Moore? Interesting that going back to Michael Finley, he was providing summer jobs for Badger players....
"Mike Naiditch, for whom Finley once worked for a summer at the highly charged Chicago Board of Options Exchange, describes him this way: “He’s a very smart, independent thinker. … He’s got much more than the basic building blocks to be successful in business. … He is highly motivated to achieve, and I think business is only one way he could do that if he wanted to. Basketball is another, and I’m sure there are many, many more.”
"Connections" are a bitch sometimes, eh Bucky? Let's see if I got this right: Alum, donar, AAU coach, agent, employer, street recruiter, friend of the program....hmmm. Did I miss any other Badger ties?
http://chucknowlen.com/Finley.html
So this guy Naiditch provided Finley with a summer job? What is your point? That was illegal? Immoral because he was later his agent? There was some sort of recruiting advantage?
Naiditch very well could be another part of the problem. Although I don't know anything about him and he certainly has not had the long term notorious reputation of the Irvins.
-
You digress from attacking the messenger mode to name calling. Bravo!
I never compared the Shaw recruitment to the Maymon situation. That was another poster ( MUarmy81 ) that made that link. The context in which I brought up Maymon and Newbill was to point out that there are MU fans out there that are leery of any further drama. I pointed out quite the opposite of what you suggested in that it was unlikely the Shaw family was similar to Maymon.
I find your baseless claim that Huggins would keep a player eligible no matter what ironic.
No - I'm attacking your argument, and calling you what you are - a Badger jag on a Marquette message board. It's okay that you're here Denny, but please don't get sensitive when your posts are rebutted and you get called out for being who you are. And while you are here, lets get it straight from you as to what the "long term notorious reputations of the Irvins," are...put it in writing Denny.
Lastly, if you think any Marquette fans care about the Maymon "drama" beyond feeling bad for Jerrone - you are delusioinal. As you pointed out, everyone knew going into it is was a roll of the dice due to Tim Maymon. Buzz rolled the dice and lost on Maymon, but won on Vander Blue. Personally, I don't have a problem with rolling the dice on a talented kid..and if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out...and you part ways.
-
So this guy Naiditch provided Finley with a summer job? What is your point? That was illegal? Immoral because he was later his agent? There was some sort of recruiting advantage?
Naiditch very well could be another part of the problem. Although I don't know anything about him and he certainly has not had the long term notorious reputation of the Irvins.
See the NCAA investigation at Oregon....and his client list of Bo' Boys....and his long history with the Badgers as a friend of the prgram going back 15-20 years...and his AAU ties...that is a whole lot of "shady" going on...
-
Any correlation between the Wisconsin Playground Warriors switching shoe company sponsorships to Adidas recently and Ritchie Davis making glowing comments in the Madison newspaper about Bo Ryan's recruiting tenacity for Playground Warrior players J.P Tokoto and Bronson Koenig? Remember, Wisconsin is an Adidas sponsored program also and Bo Ryan has had some success, putting it mildly with recruiting Playground Warrior players including Trevon Hughes, J.P. Gavinski, Brian Butch, Greg Stiemsma, Keaton Nankivil, Tim Jarmusz, Evan Anderson and a verbal from current player Sam Dekker.
I put that comment in italicized print to illustrate what kind of comment would be put on a Badger board if the Marquette program had similar success recruiting an AAU programs players.
Do I believe Ritchie is playing favorites with Wisconsin and that he was helped by Wisconsin in securing his Adidas sponsorship? I have no proof of that because I am not involved in any recruiting discussions and have no idea what was involved with the Nike to Adidas switch. I'd rather side with the thought that everything is on the up and up with Ritchie and Bo Ryan because I believe in innocence before I have absolute proof of guilt.
-
It's okay that you're here Denny, but please don't get sensitive when your posts are rebutted .
Webster will need to change its definition of rebuttal. Removing "refute" from the definition. Adding name calling and creative writing. LMAO
-
See the NCAA investigation at Oregon....and his client list of Bo' Boys....and his long history with the Badgers as a friend of the prgram going back 15-20 years...and his AAU ties...that is a whole lot of "shady" going on...
Seriously what aau program is he tied to? Never heard of him before.
The oregon situation is all about Nike. I doubt if this guy was funneling money to his two former badger clients aau teams ( Randolph Boys Club and Dakota Schoolers )
-
Seriously what aau program is he tied to? Never heard of him before.
The oregon situation is all about Nike. I doubt if this guy was funneling money to his two former badger clients aau teams ( Randolph Boys Club and Dakota Schoolers )
He has been around the Chicago AAU scene going back in time....starting with the Whitney Young network....so how do these "connections" work for this Wisconsin Alumni?
So, Rising Stars, owned and run by Highland Parkers (Mike Weinstein, Brian Davis), just happen to also be connected to our Highland Park friend and Wisconsin alumni--who also coached within this network back in the day before he became an agent. Marcus Jordan a part time Highland Parker--and a member of the Whitney Young state championship--played for Rising Stars. Oh, so does Ben Brust.
George Marshall plays for former Whitney Young alum, Bobby Locke (and Westinghouse connection Chris Head before) as recruited by Moore. Wisconsin connection #2. btw, Marshall was an Irvin guy...so another degree of Bucky Shady under your definition.
Our Bucky friend is an agent for Dunnigan--a Mean Streets alum..and the NCAA is reportedly looking at Dunnigan and two other Mean Streets alums Josh Crittle and Matt Humphrey in the Oregon situation because an agent apparently became involved in some "shady" dealings with them, trying to package them for $$. More to come, but Crittle wound up at, surprise, Central Florida with Jordan. You can read up on the Oregon situation here:
http://www.wildwestsports.com/Discussion/Board/Basketball/Post/View/1035134/oregon-self-reporting-infractions-to-the-ncaa
This said agent has a client list that includes Badgers Krabby, JBo, Stiemsma, etc. He also seems to have a record of employing Wisconsin hoops players going back into the 1990's as pointed out before.
So...you asked how he was connected to Wisconsin. A lot of coincidences? Or just making "connections" for Bo and himself?
-
Ownage.
The idea that any program is above this sort of thing is foolish and myopic.
-
I'm late to the party, but there are a couple of things I wanted to address. First...
Great post. I have no idea where an AAU coach gets off trying to push a player in a certain direction if his family wants another. Who do these guys think they are? You are absolutely right about how up in arms we'd all be if it were the other way around.
Imagine this scenario (I'm not saying this is the case with Shaw, but an example)...At a certain age (8/10/12/14 years old, whatever), a kid shows promise on the court and gets noticed and recruited to an AAU program. While it is evident that this player is good and has a future, his family cannot afford all of the costs associated with summer basketball. The AAU coach is confident in the kid and agrees to help the kid and his family out with the costs...maybe paying for it all, but providing some benefit.
When it comes to the kid's college recruitment...who gets to have the most say? The family, or the one that made it all possible, the coach? Is it wrong for the coach who made it all possible to have a say in where the kid is going? Sometimes the coach and the family are on the same page. Sometimes the coach is looking out for himself or his AAU program and is looking for a payday.
Further...What happens when it is (hopefully) time for the player to possibly turn pro early? Many believe it is all about the player making the decision, and many criticize when a FR/SO/JR turn pro early. It may not be his decision alone. The same AAU coach that provided for him in high school still has a stake in the game. He makes it known to the player that it is time to go pro (NBA or overseas) and start to "return the favor."
-
Also...Regarding UW/Bo/AAU programs. Anyone ever hear of the Wisconsin SWING Program? I'm willing to bet you have. Anyone have any idea how that program got started? Here is a nice rundown of what happened:
http://marquette.scout.com/2/297634.html
Bo had the genius idea to have a former player start the program, and have his son, Will Ryan, coach it. At the time, Will Ryan was also the Video Coordinator for UW basketball. Needless to say, the NCAA stepped in...
-
He has been around the Chicago AAU scene going back in time....starting with the Whitney Young network....so how do these "connections" work for this Wisconsin Alumni?
So, Rising Stars, owned and run by Highland Parkers (Mike Weinstein, Brian Davis), just happen to also be connected to our Highland Park friend and Wisconsin alumni--who also coached within this network back in the day before he became an agent. Marcus Jordan a part time Highland Parker--and a member of the Whitney Young state championship--played for Rising Stars. Oh, so does Ben Brust.
George Marshall plays for former Whitney Young alum, Bobby Locke (and Westinghouse connection Chris Head before) as recruited by Moore. Wisconsin connection #2. btw, Marshall was an Irvin guy...so another degree of Bucky Shady under your definition.
Our Bucky friend is an agent for Dunnigan--a Mean Streets alum..and the NCAA is reportedly looking at Dunnigan and two other Mean Streets alums Josh Crittle and Matt Humphrey in the Oregon situation because an agent apparently became involved in some "shady" dealings with them, trying to package them for $$. More to come, but Crittle wound up at, surprise, Central Florida with Jordan. You can read up on the Oregon situation here:
http://www.wildwestsports.com/Discussion/Board/Basketball/Post/View/1035134/oregon-self-reporting-infractions-to-the-ncaa
This said agent has a client list that includes Badgers Krabby, JBo, Stiemsma, etc. He also seems to have a record of employing Wisconsin hoops players going back into the 1990's as pointed out before.
So...you asked how he was connected to Wisconsin. A lot of coincidences? Or just making "connections" for Bo and himself?
With all those connections Bo can't wait to start to finally gaining some benefit from them. None of those kids ended up playing for Bo as far as I can tell.
-
Any correlation between the Wisconsin Playground Warriors switching shoe company sponsorships to Adidas recently and Ritchie Davis making glowing comments in the Madison newspaper about Bo Ryan's recruiting tenacity for Playground Warrior players J.P Tokoto and Bronson Koenig? Remember, Wisconsin is an Adidas sponsored program also and Bo Ryan has had some success, putting it mildly with recruiting Playground Warrior players including Trevon Hughes, J.P. Gavinski, Brian Butch, Greg Stiemsma, Keaton Nankivil, Tim Jarmusz, Evan Anderson and a verbal from current player Sam Dekker.
I put that comment in italicized print to illustrate what kind of comment would be put on a Badger board if the Marquette program had similar success recruiting an AAU programs players.
Do I believe Ritchie is playing favorites with Wisconsin and that he was helped by Wisconsin in securing his Adidas sponsorship? I have no proof of that because I am not involved in any recruiting discussions and have no idea what was involved with the Nike to Adidas switch. I'd rather side with the thought that everything is on the up and up with Ritchie and Bo Ryan because I believe in innocence before I have absolute proof of guilt.
Read somewhere that Tokoto is leaving the Playground Warriors to play with the Nike Mean Streets program out of Chicago. If true it would not be a huge surprise to some.
-
With all those connections Bo can't wait to start to finally gaining some benefit from them. None of those kids ended up playing for Bo as far as I can tell.
Little confused as Brust is on the roster this year and Marshall is signed for next by Bo.
-
Read somewhere that Tokoto is leaving the Playground Warriors to play with the Nike Mean Streets program out of Chicago. If true it would not be a huge surprise to some.
Es la verdad
http://twitter.com/#!/CrackedSidewlks/status/28367758366 (http://twitter.com/#!/CrackedSidewlks/status/28367758366)
-
Also...Regarding UW/Bo/AAU programs. Anyone ever hear of the Wisconsin SWING Program? I'm willing to bet you have. Anyone have any idea how that program got started? Here is a nice rundown of what happened:
http://marquette.scout.com/2/297634.html
Bo had the genius idea to have a former player start the program, and have his son, Will Ryan, coach it. At the time, Will Ryan was also the Video Coordinator for UW basketball. Needless to say, the NCAA stepped in...
It is my understanding that the WI Swing program has become pretty successful. In fact, I have a friend who coaches the 15U team.
The former player who started the program, Dana MacKenzie, is a person I've known for a long time. Was a sub. gym teacher while I was in grade school, an alumnus of my HS (Coach Zwetler also ran the "swing"), and now is the HC at Waunakee (think he is still there).
Born and raised in Madison, went to Marquette. Look, I hate badger bball as much as the next person (from grades 4 thru senior year in HS I ran the swing, its burned in my brain) but to insinuate that MacKenzie is "feeding" players to Bo is a little over-reaching, IMO.
-
Seriously what aau program is he tied to? Never heard of him before.
The oregon situation is all about Nike. I doubt if this guy was funneling money to his two former badger clients aau teams ( Randolph Boys Club and Dakota Schoolers )
-
I find it amusing that many seem to think AAU coaches are always dirty, and that a player's family would never be the ones guided by the almighty $.
-
Little confused as Brust is on the roster this year and Marshall is signed for next by Bo.
And? Wisconsin is not allowed to sign players? Don't understand what this has to do with Nadisch?
-
I find it amusing that many seem to think AAU coaches are always dirty, and that a player's family would never be the ones guided by the almighty $.
I don't believe all aau teams are dirty. It just happens that some knowledgeable people tell me that Mac Irvin is one of those teams that is.
-
And? Wisconsin is not allowed to sign players? Don't understand what this has to do with Nadisch?
Saint Bo can sign whomever he wants. I am countering your whisper campaign with how his network connections actually work for UW. First, Howard Moore played in the same AAU circles you claim are "shady" -- even signing a player from the Fire. I laid out the Highland Park connections which includes UW athlete jobs, agents and in securing Brust--and we haven't even touched on the ugly double appeal on his release from Iowa (led by Weinstein) that the Badgers mysteriously had such a moral interest in due to the injustice--and just happened to sign him right after his second appeal. MU1104 brought up other "shady" UW-AAU connections.
We get it--it is a "shady" business...and we now also get that UW plays in that sandbox too. Well, to me anyway it is clear, but to you Badgers, apparently you all don't "understand" the six degrees of UW shadiness through your red colored glasses.
-
Not to get the thread back on topic, but does anyone know how long it takes to get ACT results back these days? Is it something where you wait a few weeks, or is Shaw likely to know in the next couple days?
-
Thanks brewcity...yes, back on topic. Somebody mentioned awhile ago that shaw may make a decision shortly after his visit to illinois this weekend...any word on his visit this weekend or if he will make a decision before the end of the NOV signing period?
-
Not to get the thread back on topic, but does anyone know how long it takes to get ACT results back these days? Is it something where you wait a few weeks, or is Shaw likely to know in the next couple days?
http://www.actstudent.org/scores/early/
In short, it depends on if he took the ACT plus writing, which I doubt he did. But basically sometime between the end of September and the beginning of November.
-
Also, I saw that former Cincinnati Reds star Barry Larkin's son Shane committed to DePaul this week. Seems like a pretty big signing for them, he's rated as a top 100 player by both ESPN (#98) and Rivals (#62), while Scout has him as a 3-star. But what I noticed is that with the addition of Larkin, DePaul now has three 2011 commits with Macari Brooks and Jamie Crockett, but only two scholarship players graduating -- Mike Stovall and Mario Stula (Jimmy Drew is a walk-on). This may end their pursuit of Shaw, leaving us and Illinois as the only real suitors (unless WVU is back in the picture).
-
Also, I saw that former Cincinnati Reds star Barry Larkin's son Shane committed to DePaul this week. Seems like a pretty big signing for them, he's rated as a top 100 player by both ESPN (#98) and Rivals (#62), while Scout has him as a 3-star. But what I noticed is that with the addition of Larkin, DePaul now has three 2011 commits with Macari Brooks and Jamie Crockett, but only two scholarship players graduating -- Mike Stovall and Mario Stula (Jimmy Drew is a walk-on). This may end their pursuit of Shaw, leaving us and Illinois as the only real suitors (unless WVU is back in the picture).
Highly doubtful.
The returning players on DePaul's roster have led to two straight 16th place finishes. If Purnell has a chance to land Shaw, he will not hesitate to choose not the renew the scholarship of one of Wainwright's holdovers.
Its wishful thinking that DePaul will back off of Shaw because of their scholarship situation.
-
Saint Bo can sign whomever he wants. I am countering your whisper campaign with how his network connections actually work for UW. First, Howard Moore played in the same AAU circles you claim are "shady" -- even signing a player from the Fire. I laid out the Highland Park connections which includes UW athlete jobs, agents and in securing Brust--and we haven't even touched on the ugly double appeal on his release from Iowa (led by Weinstein) that the Badgers mysteriously had such a moral interest in due to the injustice--and just happened to sign him right after his second appeal. MU1104 brought up other "shady" UW-AAU connections.
We get it--it is a "shady" business...and we now also get that UW plays in that sandbox too. Well, to me anyway it is clear, but to you Badgers, apparently you all don't "understand" the six degrees of UW shadiness through your red colored glasses.
I have never heard anything shady about the Rising Stars program. I suppose it is possible but that is not who my connections talk about when it comes to problems with aau programs.
I don't know who Howard Moore played aau ball for in the late 80's.
Marshall and Henry left the Fire program after committing to UW and Illinois respectively. That is not a coincidence. The Irvin's continued to shop their services even though they were not in control of either players recruitment.
If you are judging programs by who their coaches may know none will come out looking very good. The guys Buzz Williams coached for were not all angels. I doubt any coach would stand up to your loose association standards. Most are meaningless. I believe legitimate jobs are provided by supporters at most programs. It is when the jobs are not legitimate there is a problem.
Back to my original post. There is little doubt in my mind or most who are connected with the Chicago basketball scene that the Irvin's program is a little shady. The problem is not with recruiting kids from that program. The problem as I suggested is when that aau programs intentions may be in conflict with that of the recruits family.
-
"Will the Mike Shaw recruitment come to a close anytime soon?
HOOPS REPORT: In a word, yes. There has been way too much drama and debate surrounding this one, including plenty of misinformation due mostly to media and internet buildup and unfair assumptions about the kid and his recruitment. Has there been enough analysis yet? Though there have been some twists and turns, the Hoops Report believes the Shaw Sweepstakes will come to a close much sooner than later. The Hoops Report has felt Illinois was the team to beat for Shaw and it will stick with that belief."
http://blogs.suntimes.com/hoopsreport/2010/10/recruiting_q_a.html
And Illini Loyalty board on his visit...
http://www.illinoisloyalty.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=13742
-
George Marshall continued to play for the Mac Irvin Fire during the AAU season this past summer. That is...until he decided to quit in the middle of a game that they were losing.
-
George Marshall continued to play for the Mac Irvin Fire during the AAU season this past summer. That is...until he decided to quit in the middle of a game that they were losing.
That was an internet rumor that ended up being untrue.
-
That was an internet rumor that ended up being untrue.
So he DID still continue to play for the Fire? Remember, you said:
Marshall and Henry left the Fire program after committing to UW and Illinois respectively.
Which one is it?
From an article on BadgerNation.com, dated May 8:
"Whether it is late-night sessions by himself or spending time with the Mac Irvin Fire...That notion of ball security was instilled in him with his time on the AAU circuit with the Mac Irvin Fire, a team chalked full of talent. It’s been so beneficial to his development that Marshall, sidelined the last two weeks with a minor injury, is counting the days until he can rejoin the team at the Rookies Invitational in Houston next weekend"
He also played with the Fire during the Nike EYBL events in June and July.
-
I think we can conclude that Bo doesn't do things the right way, he pushes the rules and maybe breaks them. The AAU thing with the swing is enough to know that at the very least, he will push the rules to the breaking point.
This is public information that doesn't require any rumors or "ifs" or any imagination. That reveals a lot about doing things the right way versus pushing a rule beyond best practices, etc.
I wouldn't want to do business with him. Is he any worse than most out there? Probably not, but he probably isn't any better, either. If it was a Marquette coach doing these sleazy practices, you know what the UW people would be saying, and saying it over, and over and over. And they'd add: where there is smoke there is fire!
-
I do not like Bo Ryan, but my guess is that on the a basketball coaches integrety scale he would be near the top. I find these accusations unbefitting of fans who root for a Christian based school.
-
I think we can conclude that Bo doesn't do things the right way, he pushes the rules and maybe breaks them. The AAU thing with the swing is enough to know that at the very least, he will push the rules to the breaking point.
This is public information that doesn't require any rumors or "ifs" or any imagination. That reveals a lot about doing things the right way versus pushing a rule beyond best practices, etc.
I wouldn't want to do business with him. Is he any worse than most out there? Probably not, but he probably isn't any better, either. If it was a Marquette coach doing these sleazy practices, you know what the UW people would be saying, and saying it over, and over and over. And they'd add: where there is smoke there is fire!
I think this position is a little much. Anything he is being accused of by people here is still relatively minor and harmless. In the grand scheme of college basketball coaches, Bo Ryan is one of the good guys.
-
Did anyone read that thread from the UoI board? Wow are they overconfident in getting Shaw! Not that what they say matters, but some of their opinions were completely asinine! "We can hold a spot for Holton and tell him we are waiting to here from Shaw, then give Shaw an ultimatum about committing to UI". Really? According to their board, Shaw is about 90% UI and 10% WV right now......and that's being generous towards WV. They don't appear to be at all threatened by MU. In the words of Lou Brown in Major League, I'd like to give them a "nice big sh$tburger to eat!".
-
I do not like Bo Ryan, but my guess is that on the a basketball coaches integrety scale he would be near the top. I find these accusations unbefitting of fans who root for a Christian based school.
As a person, Bo is a good character. As a coach & recruiter, he - like 99% of D-I coaches - are compromised by the industry in which they make their living.
IMO, the coach/recruiter integrity scale goes like this: Calipari on one extreme, Bobby Knight on the other, and everyone else indistinguishably lumped into one big heap in the middle.
Praise Jesus. (just covering my bases as a fan of a Christian based school)
-
So he DID still continue to play for the Fire? Remember, you said:
Which one is it?
From an article on BadgerNation.com, dated May 8:
"Whether it is late-night sessions by himself or spending time with the Mac Irvin Fire...That notion of ball security was instilled in him with his time on the AAU circuit with the Mac Irvin Fire, a team chalked full of talent. It’s been so beneficial to his development that Marshall, sidelined the last two weeks with a minor injury, is counting the days until he can rejoin the team at the Rookies Invitational in Houston next weekend"
He also played with the Fire during the Nike EYBL events in June and July.
Marshall left the Fire program. He did not quit in the middle of a game.