One player admits it. Evidence was collected. Prosecutors will not press charges.
http://deadspin.com/5651355/sexual-assault-allegations-against-two-michigan-state-players-why-arent-charges-being-brought
Quote from: goodgreatgrand on September 30, 2010, 09:12:19 AM
One player admits it. Evidence was collected. Prosecutors will not press charges.
http://deadspin.com/5651355/sexual-assault-allegations-against-two-michigan-state-players-why-arent-charges-being-brought
Probably the same reason Syracuse police didn't press charges against Eric Douchendorf Devendorf for the 2 assults of women he committed in his time at Syracuse - "they let university police," police such matters. The joke then becomes when a university such as Syracuse then doesn't take any real action, and allows the athlete to just skate - 40 hours of community service - and no court time missed. Looks like MSU is going the Cuse route - and looking the other way. I wouldn't expect that out of Izzo - so I'm surprised.
Quote from: Ners on September 30, 2010, 09:28:53 AM
Probably the same reason Syracuse police didn't press charges against Eric Douchendorf Devendorf for the 2 assults of women he committed in his time at Syracuse - "they let university police," police such matters. The joke then becomes when a university such as Syracuse then doesn't take any real action, and allows the athlete to just skate - 40 hours of community service - and no court time missed. Looks like MSU is going the Cuse route - and looking the other way. I wouldn't expect that out of Izzo - so I'm surprised.
How is this Izzo's decision?
Quote from: TheRock on September 30, 2010, 09:36:35 AM
How is this Izzo's decision?
Why I'm even going to justify your idiocy with a response - I'm not sure..but here goes: As the steward of the men's basketball program at MSU, when from the article, "MSU Police forwarded their report to the prosecutor's office with a recommendation that the two players be charged with Criminal Sexual Conduct 1, the most serious level of assault," and the Head Basketball at MSU chooses to not suspend, or kick off these two players from the team - while that just surprises me given Izzo's perceived character/integrity.
We had a little incident with Pat Hazel a couple of years ago - nothing CLOSE to this extent - he NEVER saw the court again at MU (after playing the first 14 games of the year) - and had to transfer at the end of the year. That to me, shows some integrity/character - as the team could have really used Pat in 2007-2008 as it had no big other than Dwight Burke.
Quote from: TheRock on September 30, 2010, 09:36:35 AM
How is this Izzo's decision?
Doesn't he decide who is on the team?
Quote from: PBRme on September 30, 2010, 09:49:52 AM
Doesn't he decide who is on the team?
good call, I was thinking more about why they weren't charged with crimes
Also, this is one of those situations where, and I'm not saying that this is the girl's fault, but drinking with two guys, no matter who they are, and then going to their room and starting to play strip basketball, you have to know that something is going to happen if you put yourself in that situation. I'm not excusing these guys behavior, b/c it was completely uncalled for and terrible and illegal and all that. But any girl who goes to two guys' room after just meeting them and starts taking off her clothes....well I'll let you form your own opinions
Quote from: TheRock on September 30, 2010, 10:03:57 AM
good call, I was thinking more about why they weren't charged with crimes
Also, this is one of those situations where, and I'm not saying that this is the girl's fault, but drinking with two guys, no matter who they are, and then going to their room and starting to play strip basketball, you have to know that something is going to happen if you put yourself in that situation. I'm not excusing these guys behavior, b/c it was completely uncalled for and terrible and illegal and all that. But any girl who goes to two guys' room after just meeting them and starts taking off her clothes....well I'll let you form your own opinions
You're saying, but not saying, but saying, not saying, it's wrong and illegal, but just sayin...
Quote from: reinko on September 30, 2010, 10:21:31 AM
You're saying, but not saying, but saying, not saying, it's wrong and illegal, but just sayin...
Exactly
Quote from: TheRock on September 30, 2010, 10:03:57 AM
good call, I was thinking more about why they weren't charged with crimes
Also, this is one of those situations where, and I'm not saying that this is the girl's fault, but drinking with two guys, no matter who they are, and then going to their room and starting to play strip basketball, you have to know that something is going to happen if you put yourself in that situation. I'm not excusing these guys behavior, b/c it was completely uncalled for and terrible and illegal and all that. But any girl who goes to two guys' room after just meeting them and starts taking off her clothes....well I'll let you form your own opinions
Fail.
It appears you and the prosecutor both didn't read the police report.
No different than a lot of places in major college towns or, ahem, small NFL towns over they years.
Quote from: Ners on September 30, 2010, 09:48:20 AM
Why I'm even going to justify your idiocy with a response - I'm not sure..but here goes: As the steward of the men's basketball program at MSU, when from the article, "MSU Police forwarded their report to the prosecutor's office with a recommendation that the two players be charged with Criminal Sexual Conduct 1, the most serious level of assault," and the Head Basketball at MSU chooses to not suspend, or kick off these two players from the team - while that just surprises me given Izzo's perceived character/integrity.
We had a little incident with Pat Hazel a couple of years ago - nothing CLOSE to this extent - he NEVER saw the court again at MU (after playing the first 14 games of the year) - and had to transfer at the end of the year. That to me, shows some integrity/character - as the team could have really used Pat in 2007-2008 as it had no big other than Dwight Burke.
What exactly happened with Hazel? And how do you know?
Quote from: LancesOtherNut on September 30, 2010, 10:23:56 AM
Fail.
It appears you and the prosecutor both didn't read the police report.
You're right, I didn't go to the courthouse in East Lansing and request the police report. I'm going off the same facts you are. The girl went to their room after just meeting them and started taking off her clothes....
Quote from: TheRock on September 30, 2010, 10:37:59 AM
You're right, I didn't go to the courthouse in East Lansing and request the police report. I'm going off the same facts you are. The girl went to their room after just meeting them and started taking off her clothes....
Once in the room, the three started playing basketball using a mini-hoop. When the victim missed a basket, one of the men told her she had to remove an article of clothing.
The victim agreed and removed her t-shirt because she had a tank top on underneath. At this point, the victim says, the players began to deliberately miss baskets until they were stripped "completely naked." One of the men allegedly blocked the doorway to the room, while the other "cornered" the victim in the room. "[The victim] explained to [detectives] that the body language of [the players] suggested she was not free to leave," the report says. "[Redacted] was blocking any escape path to the exit of the dorm room. [The victim] stated that after [redacted] approached the door he turned the lights in the room off and the room went completely dark. At this point, the sexual assault began."
The victim told police the players penetrated her in various positions. The victim told detectives the players allegedly asked her "how does that feel?" and "how do you want it?" The victim says she told the players she didn't want it and gave "other indicators she was not a willing participant."
The victim told police that the players pinned her down, but at one point she freed her arms momentarily and struck one of the players in the face. The player was on top of her and in response to her hitting him, he allegedly said, "Don't. Just relax. C'mon," as he continued to assault her, the report says.
He told investigators that when it was clear from the victim's statements that she did not want to have sex, he stopped. However, the other player continued "despite her reluctance and statements that she did not want to continue."
I read all that...certainly going into the he said/she said realm, but that is pretty damning.
That's the definition of he said/she said
She started taking her clothes off and they got naked and then started doing stuff. She wanted to stop in the middle. One guy stopped, the other guy didn't. The other guy who didn't stop when she wanted to is the one in the wrong here. Thats where the illegal activity started. She was consenting up until then. They penetrated her in various positions. This seems to mean that they moved around and she moved around and...well you get the picture.
She wanted to stop. Thats when the assault started, not right at the beginning. She started to get naked
You should have stopped while you were just behind
Quote from: TheRock on September 30, 2010, 10:03:57 AM
good call, I was thinking more about why they weren't charged with crimes
You charge what you can prove.
Quote from: Brewtown Andy on September 30, 2010, 11:59:49 AM
You charge what you can prove.
Or you charge what you can't prove and then amend down in a plea deal.
The prosecutor in East Lansing traditionally is NOT reluctant to prosecute MSU athletes and/or students. You can google all kinds of criminal/misdemeanor cases involving Spartan athletes. As I understand it, he does not feel he has a winnable case at this point but is open to re-examining it if the victim comes forward with more evidence. Izzo is in a bind. If he publicly suspends the two players, then he makes known who it is who either (A) committed a criminal act though the prosecutor is not choosing to pursue it, (B)acted stupidly but not criminally, (C) were involved with someone who changed their mind in the middle, (D) did nothing wrong. I know, I know, I read the police report, too. BTW, for someone accused of criminal activity in a state not known for being soft on crime, whatever happened to Monterale Clark?
Quote from: copious1218 on September 30, 2010, 12:06:53 PM
Or you charge what you can't prove and then amend down in a plea deal.
If you charge what you can't prove, the judge will just grant the motion to dismiss.
Quote from: copious1218 on September 30, 2010, 12:06:53 PM
Or you charge what you can't prove and then amend down in a plea deal.
Unless the alleged suspects know nothing happened and have an airtight story that they both repeat on the stand during a trial.
Even if they lie on the stand, if they both tell the exact same story with no differences, then a jury is sitting there with 2 people saying one thing and 1 person saying another. You can't possibly expect a jury to return a conviction.
That doesn't matter, if the prosecution can't show probable cause at a preliminary hearing for the charges, then the charges would be dropped. If you charge something you can't prove, you will not meet this standard and the charges would be dismissed by the judge.
Quote from: TheRock on September 30, 2010, 01:23:35 PM
That doesn't matter, if the prosecution can't show probable cause at a preliminary hearing for the charges, then the charges would be dropped. If you charge something you can't prove, you will not meet this standard and the charges would be dismissed by the judge.
And good luck finding a DA's office who wants a case thrown out like that.
Quote from: TheRock on September 30, 2010, 12:27:56 PM
If you charge what you can't prove, the judge will just grant the motion to dismiss.
It was somewhat tongue in cheek. Having said that, a number of DA's offices encourage to charge high to allow room for negotiation on the plea deal. Not to mention, the probable cause burden at a preliminary hearing is very low compared to the "beyond a reaonable doubt" burden at trial.
What DA's offices are you referring to?
Quote from: TheRock on September 30, 2010, 02:07:41 PM
What DA's offices are you referring to?
It doesn't matter, but let me correct one thing I stated as I may have oversimplified this a bit. I did not mean to imply you charge something that there is no chance to prove. Rather, I simply meant that you can charge something that is a bit of a stretch and then plead down to something that you can absolutely prove or to a lesser included offense.
Suitemate (room on the other side of a common bathroom) heard sounds of sex but no cries of protest. He-said/she-said with a witness that didn't hear protesting makes it difficult to prove a crime.
Quote from: TheRock on September 30, 2010, 10:53:32 AM
She wanted to stop. Thats when the assault started, not right at the beginning. She started to get naked
Hold on...someone "starts to get naked" when they take off a t-shirt even though they have another piece of clothing underneath? I just took off my socks...did I just start to "get naked???"
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on September 30, 2010, 09:18:30 PM
Hold on...someone "starts to get naked" when they take off a t-shirt even though they have another piece of clothing underneath? I just took off my socks...did I just start to "get naked???"
Come on now, she took off her shirt, a little different than socks. She met these guys that night and drank with them and then went to their room and started to play strip basketball.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on September 30, 2010, 09:18:30 PM
Hold on...someone "starts to get naked" when they take off a t-shirt even though they have another piece of clothing underneath? I just took off my socks...did I just start to "get naked???"
I'm getting a bad visual here.
Quote from: copious1218 on September 30, 2010, 02:12:04 PM
It doesn't matter, but let me correct one thing I stated as I may have oversimplified this a bit. I did not mean to imply you charge something that there is no chance to prove. Rather, I simply meant that you can charge something that is a bit of a stretch and then plead down to something that you can absolutely prove or to a lesser included offense.
You'd have to be an idiot to charge something that's a stretch to be able to prove. All you're doing is opening the case up to either dismissal or a not guilty verdict.
Now, charging the absolute worst crime or crimes possible that you can prove given the facts? Sure. But no DA is ever going to over reach just to be able to plead to the crime you actually want to charge.
Quote from: TheRock on September 30, 2010, 09:27:06 PM
Come on now, she took off her shirt, a little different than socks. She met these guys that night and drank with them and then went to their room and started to play strip basketball.
She took off her t-shirt...and had a tank underneath. When the MSU players took it to the next level and got completely naked, she tried to leave and couldn't. (According to her.)
No offense, but when a girl takes off her t-shirt...and has clothes on underneath, that isn't "getting naked," nor is it an invitation for sex.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 01, 2010, 08:56:51 AM
She took off her t-shirt...and had a tank underneath. When the MSU players took it to the next level and got completely naked, she tried to leave and couldn't. (According to her.)
No offense, but when a girl takes off her t-shirt...and has clothes on underneath, that isn't "getting naked," nor is it an invitation for sex.
But what if you had a boat, and the implication was, well you know...
Quote from: Brewtown Andy on October 01, 2010, 02:07:55 AM
You'd have to be an idiot to charge something that's a stretch to be able to prove. All you're doing is opening the case up to either dismissal or a not guilty verdict.
Now, charging the absolute worst crime or crimes possible that you can prove given the facts? Sure. But no DA is ever going to over reach just to be able to plead to the crime you actually want to charge.
I don't intend to stretch this conversation out any further and you can PM me if you want to continue this but DAs reaching happens all the time. I think we are using different language to describe the same thing. By reaching I simply meant something the DA believes they can prove but they know it is a reach for a favorable verdict. If they have confidence in their abilities, why not? I'm not implying charging something with an element clearly not met, or something that will result in dismissal.
Apologies for any grammar issues - typing on phone.
Quote from: reinko on October 01, 2010, 09:36:30 AM
But what if you had a boat, and the implication was, well you know...
Dude, are you talking about hurting women?