Regardless of whether or not this is a stunt to pressure Nova to join, it's the best idea ive heard come out of Providence in awhile. I hope it happens.
Having survived the most recent wave of expansion intact, the Big East Conference is studying ways to bolster its position and has targeted TCU as very attractive candidate to help strengthen its football league, The Post has learned.
"We are in a situation that requires us to evaluate and analyze all our options including expansion and television," said a source close to the league who requested anonymity. "There are a dozen or so schools that we're looking at."
Two sources said the TCU discussion developed recently. The school's tradition, academics and recent success have lifted the university's profile. TCU (4-0) is ranked fifth in the polls and many believe it is currently the best team in Texas.
One source stressed that there have been no meetings among Big East presidents or ADs to discuss membership. But that source also said expansion has altered the way conferences think. The fact that TCU hardly matches the Big East footprint is a tertiary concern.
"It's a good program in a good market,'' said the source. "That's what you look for.''
TCU is a member of the Mountain West Conference, which recently lost Utah to the Pac 10. There was intense speculation that TCU would move to the Big XII when that conference lost Nebraska to the Big Ten and Colorado to the Pac 10, which also almost lured Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State..
TCU officials, attending to their weekly football media obligations, did not immediately return calls.
It's almost a foregone conclusion that the Big Ten and Pac 10 are not done expanding, which puts the Western Athletic Conference and the Mountain West in a precipitous position. Many thought TCU would jump to the Big XII when Colorado left but that league also is vulnerable.
So as far-fetched as a Big East-TCU union might have seemed just three years ago, the landscape is changing at warp speed. The eight football playing members in the Big East strongly desire a ninth program for scheduling purposes.
Villanova, already in the league for basketball, previously was mentioned as a possible addition for football.
"It's always been our policy never to comment on individual schools when talking about membership,'' John Paquette, the Big East's associate commissioner for communications, told The Post.
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/college/football/big_east_has_interest_in_tcu_6GTZTxC9I2fssdAib7x6KK#ixzz10s7iSxhs
Beautiful. Several posters here said the same thing, makes a ton of sense. I'd add another Texas school at the same time....Houston.
I think that adding Houston and TCU are good for football and basketball. Particularly for MU, it gets Buzz face time in his neighborhood for recruiting.
However, are the other sports really ready to stretch even further? Does MU girl's soccer have the resources to have away games at Seton Hall, South Florida, and now TCU? Is this a good thing for student athletes to miss more classes due to travel?
The football revenue might cover the costs for the non-money-making sports, but it is costly.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on September 28, 2010, 08:37:57 PM
I think that adding Houston and TCU are good for football and basketball. Particularly for MU, it gets Buzz face time in his neighborhood for recruiting.
However, are the other sports really ready to stretch even further? Does MU girl's soccer have the resources to have away games at Seton Hall, South Florida, and now TCU? Is this a good thing for student athletes to miss more classes due to travel?
The football revenue might cover the costs for the non-money-making sports, but it is costly.
Is it really that much costly to travel to Texas rather than New York? It certainly isn't more costly for TCU to be a member of the BE than the MWC.
Cal will eliminate its baseball, men's and women's gymnastics and women's lacrosse teams after this year and will stop fully funding the men's rugby team.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_16199977
I wonder if expansion may lead to cuts of sports programs due to the financial constraints (which may not negate the overall benefits to the conference).
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on September 28, 2010, 08:40:17 PM
Is it really that much costly to travel to Texas rather than New York? It certainly isn't more costly for TCU to be a member of the BE than the MWC.
We've already been conference mates with TCU in Conference USA back in 2003/2004. Time out of school is/should be the last consideration at this point in Division 1 athletics. I mean we aren't talking a week at a time to go play a game in Texas or NY. At most you miss 2 class days - at most. TCU would be a HUGE coup for the Big East. I doubt it happens though - TCU wants to be a part of the rivalary of the the other Texas universities...they would get a TON more exposure locally and nationally when playing Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, and even Baylor.
Quote from: Ners on September 28, 2010, 10:42:04 PM
We've already been conference mates with TCU in Conference USA back in 2003/2004. Time out of school is/should be the last consideration at this point in Division 1 athletics. I mean we aren't talking a week at a time to go play a game in Texas or NY. At most you miss 2 class days - at most. TCU would be a HUGE coup for the Big East. I doubt it happens though - TCU wants to be a part of the rivalary of the the other Texas universities...they would get a TON more exposure locally and nationally when playing Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, and even Baylor.
True, but there is no room at the inn right now for TCU with those schools. Now, if the Big 12 had blown up like it was going to until ESPN bailed them out, then the possibility existed for TCU, Houston, etc to become part of the old Big 12 or some sort of expanded SEC.
The Big East badly needs a solid football program and TCU badly needs a BCS conference.
I don't see how TCU and Houston could come in as basketball-playing members; an 18-team league is too big. Lenn Robbins of The N.Y. Post told me years ago the league would split up after five years, and it appears he may be right (if off by a couple of years). Where this leave the basketball-only schools, who knows?
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on September 28, 2010, 10:41:53 PM
Cal will eliminate its baseball, men's and women's gymnastics and women's lacrosse teams after this year and will stop fully funding the men's rugby team.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_16199977
I wonder if expansion may lead to cuts of sports programs due to the financial constraints (which may not negate the overall benefits to the conference).
Well, there is going to be a lot of pressure to cut non-revenue sports for the sake of revenue sports. I was in Madison when UW cut baseball, and outside of a few loud voices, no one really cares. If this means more money for Cal football and basketball, than it is a good move.
I didn't like when TCU and Houston when they were in Conf. USA with Marquette. They will not add anything to the Big East for basketball.
Quote from: mupanther on September 29, 2010, 09:22:22 AM
I didn't like when TCU and Houston when they were in Conf. USA with Marquette. They will not add anything to the Big East for basketball.
Does the Big East NEED more good basketball schools? Its the ineptitude on the football side that is going to cause the conference to fall apart.
Quote from: mupanther on September 29, 2010, 09:22:22 AM
I didn't like when TCU and Houston when they were in Conf. USA with Marquette. They will not add anything to the Big East for basketball.
The issue in college athletics now is that FOOTBALL drives everything. Decisions aren't made based on the value a program's basketball team can bring to a conference. In all the talks of the Big 12 disbanding..Kansas was going to be left out. Kansas is a marquee name in college basketball...but nobody really cared. Landing TCU/Houston for the Big East would be huge to the survival of the conference. Getting into Texas would be good for the Big East.
Quote from: goodgreatgrand on September 28, 2010, 07:05:18 PM
Regardless of whether or not this is a stunt to pressure Nova to join, it's the best idea ive heard come out of Providence in awhile. I hope it happens.
I found this interesting. Can anyone explain why Nova is reluctant (if indeed they are) to join Big East football? Is it the cost of the conversion?
I think TCU would be a great addition. They would instantly bump up the BE's football credibility, and I don't see why their basketball program wouldn't develop in coming years with all the talent in Texas and the opportunity to play in the BE.
Quote from: ecompt on September 29, 2010, 07:01:29 AM
I don't see how TCU and Houston could come in as basketball-playing members; an 18-team league is too big. Lenn Robbins of The N.Y. Post told me years ago the league would split up after five years, and it appears he may be right (if off by a couple of years). Where this leave the basketball-only schools, who knows?
Agreed, its dying in front of us. Though, I for one think splitting into divisions would be pretty cool. So if they add 2 football schools to go to 18 teams, split into 3 divisions of 6 teams.
If they add more, say 2 extra basketball schools or 4 total football schools ( I have a hard time thinking the the basketball schools will allow the balance to get too far out of whack), the conference could have 4 divisions of 5 teams, and would help traveling expenses. I think it would be pretty cool, and would build regional rivalries better, playing the 4 other teams in your divisions twice.
Marquette
DePaul
Louisville
Cincinnati
Notre Dame
TCU
Houston
Memphis
South Florida
Central Florida
Connecticut
Syracuse
Providence
St. John's
Rutgers
Georgetown
Villanova
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Seton Hall
Quote from: MarkCharles on September 29, 2010, 11:01:27 AM
I found this interesting. Can anyone explain why Nova is reluctant (if indeed they are) to join Big East football? Is it the cost of the conversion?
I think TCU would be a great addition. They would instantly bump up the BE's football credibility, and I don't see why their basketball program wouldn't develop in coming years with all the talent in Texas and the opportunity to play in the BE.
I think its not just the cost but their ability to actually stay competitive and draw fans. I forgot some of the numbers Ive seen, but they may have a hard time getting 25,000 into a stadium,, much less finding an appropriate one. A lot of it has to do with whether they think they can maintain a football team well enough overtime.
They also are having a pretty fun time being good in FCS....an FCS team would've been nice for Marquette.
Quote from: Aughnanure on September 29, 2010, 11:02:24 AM
Agreed, its dying in front of us. Though, I for one think splitting into divisions would be pretty cool. So if they add 2 football schools to go to 18 teams, split into 3 divisions of 6 teams.
If they add more, say 2 extra basketball schools or 4 total football schools ( I have a hard time thinking the the basketball schools will allow the balance to get too far out of whack), the conference could have 4 divisions of 5 teams, and would help traveling expenses. I think it would be pretty cool, and would build regional rivalries better, playing the 4 other teams in your divisions twice.
Marquette
DePaul
Louisville
Cincinnati
Notre Dame
TCU
Houston
Memphis
South Florida
Central Florida
Connecticut
Syracuse
Providence
St. John's
Rutgers
Georgetown
Villanova
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Seton Hall
listening to NY radio this morning, most were of the opinion that the football schools would split from the conference if Nova doesnt want FBS status. Assuming Nova says no, the football schools will aggressively pursue two teams to get to 10 and form their own conference. Or, they will just add 1 (maybe TCU) and wait to see what happens with the B12. If KU and Kstate find themselves without a conference again, the football schools will add them. When people start brain-storning about a new conference name, a split seems inevitable (The All-American Conference was the favorite name).
Quote from: goodgreatgrand on September 29, 2010, 11:17:14 AM
listening to NY radio this morning, most were of the opinion that the football schools would split from the conference if Nova doesnt want FBS status. Assuming Nova says no, the football schools will aggressively pursue two teams to get to 10 and form their own conference. Or, they will just add 1 (maybe TCU) and wait to see what happens with the B12. If KU and Kstate find themselves without a conference again, the football schools will add them. When people start brain-storning about a new conference name, a split seems inevitable (The All-American Conference was the favorite name).
Someone please explain why the football schools breaking away is a good idea. With exception of USF and maybe WVU, every full-member in the Big East is a basketball-first school. Who cares if you have 18 basketball teams... create divisions and be happy about it.
If you keep everyone intact, a Big East Network is at least a possibility in the near future. If you split off, good luck.
Quote from: MarkCharles on September 29, 2010, 11:01:27 AM
I found this interesting. Can anyone explain why Nova is reluctant (if indeed they are) to join Big East football? Is it the cost of the conversion?
I think TCU would be a great addition. They would instantly bump up the BE's football credibility, and I don't see why their basketball program wouldn't develop in coming years with all the talent in Texas and the opportunity to play in the BE.
The cost is more and they need to add seats to the stadium.
Look at Western Kentucky, a strong school in I-AA and now can't even win a game in I-A
Quote from: Ners on September 29, 2010, 10:56:18 AM
The issue in college athletics now is that FOOTBALL drives everything. Decisions aren't made based on the value a program's basketball team can bring to a conference. In all the talks of the Big 12 disbanding..Kansas was going to be left out. Kansas is a marquee name in college basketball...but nobody really cared. Landing TCU/Houston for the Big East would be huge to the survival of the conference. Getting into Texas would be good for the Big East.
As a college footbal fan who has 2 HD tv's in my man room and watches 14 hours of football on Saturday, yes I know football drive the bus.
Some were talking about it on a basketball side.
Quote from: Benny B on September 29, 2010, 11:27:23 AM
Someone please explain why the football schools breaking away is a good idea. With exception of USF and maybe WVU, every full-member in the Big East is a basketball-first school. Who cares if you have 18 basketball teams... create divisions and be happy about it.
If you keep everyone intact, a Big East Network is at least a possibility in the near future. If you split off, good luck.
+1, though it is inevitable. I say just screw it, add 4 football teams and 4 basketball teams (to keep the voting balance) and go to a 6 division conference with 2 leagues.
Alas, it won't happen, but would be pretty cool.
Quote from: Ners on September 28, 2010, 10:42:04 PM
I doubt it happens though - TCU wants to be a part of the rivalary of the the other Texas universities...they would get a TON more exposure locally and nationally when playing Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, and even Baylor.
Who is to say those schools want a 'rivalry' with TCU? They had it for 50 years ... and there was no rivalry. With any of them. If A&M moves it won't be to be in the league with TCU. Same with Texas and Tech. Screw Baylor
Agree 100% with The Big Lead's take on this
http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2010/09/29/the-big-east-considering-tcu-speaks-of-its-desperation/
Quote from: mupanther on September 29, 2010, 09:22:22 AM
I didn't like when TCU and Houston when they were in Conf. USA with Marquette. They will not add anything to the Big East for basketball.
It's not a basketball debate....basketball is a gnat on an elephant's arse compared to football. If the Big East conference is to stay together, football has to improve. Otherwise there will be a breakup.
Quote from: NYWarrior on September 29, 2010, 12:14:30 PM
Agree 100% with The Big Lead's take on this
http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2010/09/29/the-big-east-considering-tcu-speaks-of-its-desperation/
Yup, it is a sign of desperation but one of the smarter moves they can make. TCU and Boise both want a BCS bid and the Big East has one, whether they deserve it or not is another matter, but they do have it.
The interesting thing for me has been that Va Tech, Miami and BC leaving the Big East in football was a killer for the football side, but those three programs haven't exactly been benefactors themselves by going to the ACC. It has become a lose lose for everyone, but probably a bigger loss for the Big East than those 3 schools.
Miami and Va Tech had a chance to play for the national title almost every year by staying in the Big East and plowing through that schedule.
would the BE have any chance at stealing the Eastern teams out of the Big 12 as it slowly bleeds to death?
Kansas and Mizzou come immediately to mind as teams that might be willing to listen, particularly after being left at the altar by the Big 10.
(sorry if this is totally ignorant of a major fact or two, just brainstorming)
Quote from: MUBurrow on September 29, 2010, 01:48:14 PM
would the BE have any chance at stealing the Eastern teams out of the Big 12 as it slowly bleeds to death?
Kansas and Mizzou come immediately to mind as teams that might be willing to listen, particularly after being left at the altar by the Big 10.
(sorry if this is totally ignorant of a major fact or two, just brainstorming)
As long at the Big 12 has their own BCS bid in place, I don't see why any schools would want to leave. The Big 12 is a better football conference and a top basketball conference. Only if the Big 12 imploded would that opportunity present itself, IMO.
"TCU and Big East officials have discussed the Horned Frogs joining the conference, according to several sources close to the situation.
TCU has met with Big East officials within the past 30 days to discuss the logistics of a move by TCU in either the 2011 or 2012 seasons, according to a source with knowledge of the situation.
TCU athletic director Chris Del Conte has been unavailable for comment while on business in New York and Philadelphia the past few days."
http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/09/29/2506252/tcu-big-east-have-discussed-frogs.html
The beginnning of the All-America Conference.
Quote from: goodgreatgrand on September 30, 2010, 10:50:36 AM
"TCU and Big East officials have discussed the Horned Frogs joining the conference, according to several sources close to the situation.
TCU has met with Big East officials within the past 30 days to discuss the logistics of a move by TCU in either the 2011 or 2012 seasons, according to a source with knowledge of the situation.
TCU athletic director Chris Del Conte has been unavailable for comment while on business in New York and Philadelphia the past few days."
http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/09/29/2506252/tcu-big-east-have-discussed-frogs.html
The beginnning of the All-America Conference.
So is this the Big East putting this together, or a consortium of just the football school from the BE? It seems illogical that the conference would expand only to break up shortly thereafter. The BE is a body that is interested in preserving itself, not growing itself to the size where it would be easier for the football only schools to break free.
To me, it seems logical that the BE would be doing this as a whole, with the input of the football schools.
I'm not trying to call you out, just hoping for an explanation. I am a bit confused as to how adding a football power to a conference that needs more football powers to survive is a step towards that conference breaking up. This seems like a very positive step for continuity of the BE to me.
Quote from: MarkCharles on September 30, 2010, 11:08:39 AM
So is this the Big East putting this together, or a consortium of just the football school from the BE? It seems illogical that the conference would expand only to break up shortly thereafter. The BE is a body that is interested in preserving itself, not growing itself to the size where it would be easier for the football only schools to break free.
To me, it seems logical that the BE would be doing this as a whole, with the input of the football schools.
I'm not trying to call you out, just hoping for an explanation. I am a bit confused as to how adding a football power to a conference that needs more football powers to survive is a step towards that conference breaking up. This seems like a very positive step for continuity of the BE to me.
If Nova goes to FBS status, everything will be great. If they dont and TCU or another program joins, the football schools will get their 9th member and basketball will get their...17th member. And, going forward, it will only continue to make more sense if the BE continues to add schools with football programs. Nine members is fine, but getting to twelve is obviously ideal. In that case, there would be 20 basketball schools. I dont think the football schools would want to stick around under that scenario, especially when they would have the voting majority.
New Conference:TCU, Rutgers, USF, UConn, WVU, 'Ville, Cincy, Cuse, Pitt
Big East: MU, DePaul, Nova, GTown, Prov, SJU, SHU, plus...
Not sure what ND would do if this was to happen.
Quote from: goodgreatgrand on September 30, 2010, 11:28:44 AM
If Nova goes to FBS status, everything will be great. If they dont and TCU or another program joins, the football schools will get their 9th member and basketball will get their...17th member. And, going forward, it will only continue to make more sense if the BE continues to add schools with football programs. Nine members is fine, but getting to twelve is obviously ideal. In that case, there would be 20 basketball schools. I dont think the football schools would want to stick around under that scenario, especially when they would have the voting majority.
New Conference:TCU, Rutgers, USF, UConn, WVU, 'Ville, Cincy, Cuse, Pitt
Big East: MU, DePaul, Nova, GTown, Prov, SJU, SHU, plus...
I think the football schools might realize that they'll get more $$ per school being on their own even for basketball. Let's face it, of the top basketball programs in the BE, UConn, WVU, Louisville, Syracuse and Pitt are football schools...on the basketball side you just have a couple.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on September 30, 2010, 11:35:34 AM
I think the football schools might realize that they'll get more $$ per school being on their own even for basketball. Let's face it, of the top basketball programs in the BE, UConn, WVU, Louisville, Syracuse and Pitt are football schools...on the basketball side you just have a couple.
Add USF and WVU to that list as well.
If a conference was comprised of TCU, Rutgers, USF, UConn, WVU, 'Ville, Cincy, Cuse and Pitt and the conference receives $1M for every team that makes the NCAA tournament, this conference is looking at $5M virtually every single year. Throw in the roughly $500k for each win in the tournament and divide that number by 9, and that's the pay-out per school just from the ncaa tournament. That would sure beat out any pay-out from a 17-20 team conference.
The basketball only schools should be insisting on adding a Basketball school as well if TCU were to get invited. This woulld even out the voting, schedules and divisions as well as provide stability for the Basketball only schools in case of a break up.
My top three would be:
1. St. Louis - Large/medium TV market, Central Time Zone, Open up Missouri for recruiting
2. Butler - Medium TV market, Great name recognition, Indiana BBall talent
3. Gonzaga - What the hell, if we're going to bring someone in, let's get the best.
I excluded all A 10 schools, because I don't see how they add any new markets.
Quote from: Clarence on September 30, 2010, 11:56:53 AM
The basketball only schools should be insisting on adding a Basketball school as well if TCU were to get invited. This woulld even out the voting, schedules and divisions as well as provide stability for the Basketball only schools in case of a break up.
My top three would be:
1. St. Louis - Large/medium TV market, Central Time Zone, Open up Missouri for recruiting
2. Butler - Medium TV market, Great name recognition, Indiana BBall talent
3. Gonzaga - What the hell, if we're going to bring someone in, let's get the best.
I excluded all A 10 schools, because I don't see how they add any new markets.
St. Louis is in the A 10....good one
That's what I get for posting pre lunch.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on September 29, 2010, 02:03:47 PM
As long at the Big 12 has their own BCS bid in place, I don't see why any schools would want to leave. The Big 12 is a better football conference and a top basketball conference. Only if the Big 12 imploded would that opportunity present itself, IMO.
As someone from Kansas City, who follows Kansas City and Big 12 sports insiders a lot, it is a FACT that the Big 12 will die. So, of course the other schools are looking for a way out - the official TV deal isnt even on paper or signed or anything! The league has 5 years max, and believe me, if Mizzou gets offered to the Big 10 and Kansas to the Pac 10, they are gone yesterday - no question. Now, if it is the Big East, Kansas and Missouri will demand to include at least Kansas State and possible Iowa State in any move.
The only possible way for the Big 12 to survive is to add BYU and Notre Dame (which means it isn't going to happenb). Arkansas ain't coming, Memphis only brings basketball and no national following. Not saying Notre Dame would join (I think BYU would jump at the chance), but in the Big 12 everyone can have their own network, and something could possibly be worked out with the schedule so Notre Dame (and all Big 12) can have 5 Non-Cons or something like that.
Texas is simply waiting until their TV network is up and running so when they finally do jump to the Pac-10, they won't be barred from having a TV network.
Quote from: Aughnanure on September 30, 2010, 02:39:06 PM
As someone from Kansas City, who follows Kansas City and Big 12 sports insiders a lot, it is a FACT that the Big 12 will die. So, of course the other schools are looking for a way out - the official TV deal isnt even on paper or signed or anything! The league has 5 years max, and believe me, if Mizzou gets offered to the Big 10 and Kansas to the Pac 10, they are gone yesterday - no question. Now, if it is the Big East, Kansas and Missouri will demand to include at least Kansas State and possible Iowa State in any move.
The only possible way for the Big 12 to survive is to add BYU and Notre Dame (which means it isn't going to happenb). Arkansas ain't coming, Memphis only brings basketball and no national following. Not saying Notre Dame would join (I think BYU would jump at the chance), but in the Big 12 everyone can have their own network, and something could possibly be worked out with the schedule so Notre Dame (and all Big 12) can have 5 Non-Cons or something like that.
Texas is simply waiting until their TV network is up and running so when they finally do jump to the Pac-10, they won't be barred from having a TV network.
There are certainly some scenarios where the Big 12 dies and others that don't go down that path. Texas wants the Pac Ten academic pedigree but I'm not convinced they are going out west without some major concessions from the Pac Ten...will they get those concessions?
Quote from: Clarence on September 30, 2010, 11:56:53 AM
The basketball only schools should be insisting on adding a Basketball school as well if TCU were to get invited. This woulld even out the voting, schedules and divisions as well as provide stability for the Basketball only schools in case of a break up.
My top three would be:
1. St. Louis - Large/medium TV market, Central Time Zone, Open up Missouri for recruiting
2. Butler - Medium TV market, Great name recognition, Indiana BBall talent
3. Gonzaga - What the hell, if we're going to bring someone in, let's get the best.
I excluded all A 10 schools, because I don't see how they add any new markets.
People don't think this may happen for some reason, but it is the only way Marquette and DePaul got in last time - they wanted to maintain the voting balance. This is probably where the league simply splits off, but I would bet the Basketball-only schools will want 1 basketball school for every 1 football school added....not that they'll get it
Oh, and Xavier is by far the first one to be added (natural rivalry with Cincy). Furthermore, I don't see the basketball only school going outside of Catholic schools since they never have before (UMass, Wichita St, Charlotte and Butler wouldve all been good choices), so there is more a sense of unity between the universities when they have to stand up against the football schools.
My Top 4, then, would be:
Xavier
St. Louis
Creighton
Dayton
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on September 30, 2010, 02:47:29 PM
There are certainly some scenarios where the Big 12 dies and others that don't go down that path. Texas wants the Pac Ten academic pedigree but I'm not convinced they are going out west without some major concessions from the Pac Ten...will they get those concessions?
From what Ive heard and read, the Pac-10 isnt as egalitarian as some seem to think. They are not as ridiculously unequal as the Big 12, but they aren't the SEC. The point I tried to make was that Texas mainly wants its own TV network to cash in on, and keeping the Big 12 temporarily alive allows them to set up that network so when they do jump, another conference will have to allow them in with their separate TV network that only benefits UT.
I have a hard time believing a conference isn't going to allow Texas in because they have their own separate network. Texas is the linchpin in all conference realignments, we have only seen small rumblings now, but when they move it will be a mess.
Here are our options:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/60/Cbd1.PNG)
There would have to be an agreement prior to a football school being added that another basketball-only school would be added later. Otherwise, it would never happen because the football schools would have the voting majority. Regardless, since the contract that binded all of the schools together expired in June, there is probably less of a need to make sure everyone is happy.
Nice map...he spelled Milwaukee wrong.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on September 30, 2010, 06:41:31 PM
Nice map...he spelled Milwaukee wrong.
Haha he did. Its on Wikipedia by the way. They also have similar maps for the different football divisions and so on.
Quote from: Aughnanure on September 30, 2010, 03:00:33 PM
From what Ive heard and read, the Pac-10 isnt as egalitarian as some seem to think. They are not as ridiculously unequal as the Big 12, but they aren't the SEC. The point I tried to make was that Texas mainly wants its own TV network to cash in on, and keeping the Big 12 temporarily alive allows them to set up that network so when they do jump, another conference will have to allow them in with their separate TV network that only benefits UT.
I have a hard time believing a conference isn't going to allow Texas in because they have their own separate network. Texas is the linchpin in all conference realignments, we have only seen small rumblings now, but when they move it will be a mess.
That's part of the issue. The Pac Ten is completely equal. Total equal shares for everyone. Texas doesn't want to play that game. They have a sweetheart deal with the Big 12 where the sharing isn't equal. So why would they go to the Pac Ten and get an equal share and thus turn that advantage over? Or will the Pac Ten cave in to give Texas all they want?
PAC10/Texas aside, is there any logical reason for the BE to add another basketball-only school assuming they are very interested in adding a football school and will add one perhaps by the end of the year? I mean...the BEast's biggest downfall is that they are too basketball-centric. Why the hell would they add another basketbal-only school? To piss off the full-time members? Out of curiosity, how many other conferences have "part-time" members? I know UChicago is part of the B10 from a research standpoint and non-revenue generating sports, but are there other examples? I guess I would just rather get on with the inevitable and see a split happen. Better to do it now with Lavin at SJU anyways. There is nothing more dumb than being a basketball super conference when football drives the bus. Does it really make sense to have a 20 team basketball conference and a 12 team football conference? The numbers clearly dont work.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on September 30, 2010, 07:28:18 PM
That's part of the issue. The Pac Ten is completely equal. Total equal shares for everyone. Texas doesn't want to play that game. They have a sweetheart deal with the Big 12 where the sharing isn't equal. So why would they go to the Pac Ten and get an equal share and thus turn that advantage over? Or will the Pac Ten cave in to give Texas all they want?
Maybe Im not explaining this correctly. No one wants Texas to have their own TV network separate from a conference network (like the Big Ten's). Just conservative estimates have Texas being able to make $15-20 million per year on their own network (and thats a conservative estimate). Texas is the one school that could get their network into every TV market in Texas, and probably even further than that.
Texas will accept a deal to join another conference if the conference TV money is equal, but they'll want to bring in their own network as well and not share a cent of that. That's how Texas is going to upend the competition, they will have an extra TV deal providing them equal, or more, of what their conference deal will. Basically while everyone else just has one deal and is playing fair, Texas is doubling their money right in front of you.
My information on the Pac10 is a bit different than yours I think. Though they are pretty equal comapred to the Big 12, they are not the same as SEC, with Vandy getting the
exact same money as Florida.
From a Seattle Times article earlier this year:
"Since 1986, the participants in a televised Pac-10 football game divide 55 percent of the TV booty. The 10 schools share equally in the other 45 percent. There have been occasional challenges to the agreement, but mostly just a series of tweaks over the years to reflect new TV partnerships.
It's the way of the world in the Pac-10, where the imbalance in shared TV revenue, and TV's tilt toward the booming market in Los Angeles, creates an annual gap of as much as $4 million to $5 million between USC and a have-not school like Washington State."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/budwithers/2012384965_withers18.html?syndication=rss
Quote from: goodgreatgrand on September 30, 2010, 08:01:28 PM
PAC10/Texas aside, is there any logical reason for the BE to add another basketball-only school assuming they are very interested in adding a football school and will add one perhaps by the end of the year? I mean...the BEast's biggest downfall is that they are too basketball-centric. Why the hell would they add another basketbal-only school? To piss off the full-time members? Out of curiosity, how many other conferences have "part-time" members? I know UChicago is part of the B10 from a research standpoint and non-revenue generating sports, but are there other examples? I guess I would just rather get on with the inevitable and see a split happen. Better to do it now with Lavin at SJU anyways. There is nothing more dumb than being a basketball super conference when football drives the bus. Does it really make sense to have a 20 team basketball conference and a 12 team football conference? The numbers clearly dont work.
Your point makes sense if you ARE NOT a basketball-only school. Marquette and DePaul only got into the Big East because the basketball-only schools wanted to keep the voting balance (and probably why they only look at other similar Catholic schools- loyalty). If the Big East wants to bring in more football schools the basketball schools will most likely demand one of two things:
1) Change the voting structure so the 8 basketball only schools can vote together and still be able to veto anything the football schools want (such as moving conference headquarters or, later, splitting the conference can letting the football schools keep the Big east name).
2) Demand to add an equal amount of basketball-only schools to maintain the balance - Xavier, Dayton, St. Louis or Creighton are the obvious candidates, but possibly UMass, Butler, Wichita St or Charlotte if they go outside of the Catholic realm.
If you are a Marquette fan you should be wanting them to add basketball only schools to the league because it ensures Marquette's survival and existence in the conference. Just think how easy it would be for the football only schools to split once they get the voting majority and only bring Villanova and Georgetown with them (if they even do that). Also, I think a 24 team basketball conference with 6 or 4 divisions would be pretty cool and fun to watch (not saying it would work long-term at all....but would be pretty entertaining while it lasted).
New rumor from the same person that sid a TCU invite was on its way (before the national media caught on).
"Big East Expansion
I told you so.....
Here is my cred. For those that remember the origonal post... About three to four weeks ago I wrote that the Big East was looking to expand and that TCU was in their plans. I also mentioned that the first "super conference" would be with TCU and several other teams. (orignally I speculated that it would be non AQ's when I was told that the Big East was looking at Super Conf. status. Now the media has picked up on other conversations and it has become a huge rumor.
Here is your next inside information. Take it or leave it....TCU is apparently, according to interns (just like before...AND I WAS RIGHT), a big piece to secure several teams. Now, I have been given some specific names being offered. (Vilanova is not a deciding factor according to my sources and is not actually going to be accredited full status. Maybe its a misdirection tactic or something... I dont know, but both interns said that Villanova will not be accepted into the current outline) TCU has specified that they do not want certain teams in the New Big East. ie. Baylor, Houston or SMU. Thats right TCU does not want Houston or SMU in the new Big East.
Surprise, surpriese! Some of the teams that were mentioned by the interns were surprising to say the least. Most teams mentioned were in the ACC and Big 12-2 not other non AQ's. This was a surprise to me considering the opposite has been mentioned. The Big East is also talking about its own network with the Big 10 after its current contract runs out. If true, this could be the standing ground that the Big East needs. It seems to be going after a first strike campaign while everyone else is sleeping till seasons end. Prelim talks have been made with Virginia Tech, Clemson, TCU, Texas Tech, Kansas, KState, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State.
Conference outline:
TCU
Tech
Kansas
KState
Oklahoma
Okie light
S Florida
Lou.
West Virginia
V Tech
Rutgers
Pitt
Conn
Syra
Clemson
Cin.
How bout them apples?"
Seems far fetched, to say the least. However, if this is the type of thinking Tagliabue is doing, then he was the right guy to bring in. Regardless, I dont see Oklahoma walking away from the Red River Shootout and I dont see ACC teams leaving for this new conference. On the other hand, I could imagine a scenario in which Kansas, KState and Tech leave the B12 at the same time Texas tries to launch their network.
If this comes to pass, I'll eat my foot.
Seriously, Oklahoma isn't going to the BE. They aren't thrilled with the B12, but the state of Texas is too important to them as a University to drop that affiliation for this kind of thing. Okie State is in the same boat. Tech is a little bit of an outlier, but I can't see them leaving a conference with Texas and A&M.
Now Kansas, Kansas State and TCU...*that* I could possibly see. (EDIT: Actually after reflecting on it some more, I doubt Kansas or Kansas State would consider it either. Even though it's unequal, the money is better in the B12.)
I dont think it is implied (or even possible) that this 'new' conference is the Big East. B12 teams made between $6-12M (excluding Texas). The average BE pay-out for the football schools is $7M. I'd think a network would make up the difference since I cant imagine the B12 starting a network at the same time Texas builds their own.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 04, 2010, 09:02:40 AM
If this comes to pass, I'll eat my foot.
Seriously, Oklahoma isn't going to the BE. They aren't thrilled with the B12, but the state of Texas is too important to them as a University to drop that affiliation for this kind of thing. Okie State is in the same boat. Tech is a little bit of an outlier, but I can't see them leaving a conference with Texas and A&M.
Now Kansas, Kansas State and TCU...*that* I could possibly see. (EDIT: Actually after reflecting on it some more, I doubt Kansas or Kansas State would consider it either. Even though it's unequal, the money is better in the B12.)
Kansas State and Kansas better do it! They would be the two North teams most screwed by any realignment (okay, Iowa State is a little more screwed) - anyone remember their names popping up anywhere? Nope, adn they should be scared and looking for a more stable long-term conference. At least Missouri got teased by the Big 10. I cant imagine KSU and Kansas not jumping ship, the Big 12 is like purgatory - we're all moving on soon, just not sure when.
The Oklahoma schools are not going, and Im not sure why Missouri wasn't mentioned as they would be a perfect fit with KSU and Kansas. Also, Tech? I would think they would be just sitting pretty with Texas and be one of the 4 teams to move to the PAC (along with OK, OKst) when they expand to 16. A&M wants the SEC, I dont see them going with UT in the end (though it could be close)...so Tech will be the benefactor in that.
I feel TCU is going to have to give in on Houston at least though, that's such a huge market to ignore, especially if its only because a non-AQ schools doesnt want them
"Starting a network" shouldn't be looked as a panacea of some sort. The BTN worked as a money maker because it captured huge fan bases in a specific geographic location. The BTN could get the access, and the $$$ that goes with it, because of this. As the BE currently stands, there is no way they could replicate this.
The B12 numbers you quote are a little off...it was actually between $8.7 and $15M.
Well, how much is the BE currently worth to ESPN? And everyone keeps talking about how the conference will get a much better deal when the current one expires despite the terrible football product. Based on this re-alignment, you're taking the biggest money-makers out of the BE and combining them with stable athletic departments and good football programs (for the most part - Kansas isnt great but isnt any worse than the bottom of the current BE). The BE football component gets their rivalry with VTech back...which was big. The basketball product would be very good. More markets. Bigger schools with larger alumni bases. Plus, wasnt Tagliabue brought in because of his experience in valuing markets and cable contracts?
I didn't even touch the ACC schools because I think that's even more far fetched than Kansas and Kansas State. Virginia Tech didn't beg, plead and spend all that political capital to get into the ACC for them to turn around a decade later and leave. And Clemson...why would they leave?
I think your source is a little off.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 04, 2010, 10:48:13 AM
I didn't even touch the ACC schools because I think that's even more far fetched than Kansas and Kansas State. Virginia Tech didn't beg, plead and spend all that political capital to get into the ACC for them to turn around a decade later and leave. And Clemson...why would they leave?
I think your source is a little off.
VTech did what it needed to do so that it wouldnt get left behind. Nothing more, nothing less.
And its not my source. This person posted his original comments about the TCU rumor on killerfrogs.com
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on October 04, 2010, 10:19:17 AM
"Starting a network" shouldn't be looked as a panacea of some sort. The BTN worked as a money maker because it captured huge fan bases in a specific geographic location. The BTN could get the access, and the $$$ that goes with it, because of this. As the BE currently stands, there is no way they could replicate this.
+ 1. This is why Texas is going out on its own, they capture a geographic area and can work contracts based on that geographic relevance. For them to make a Big 12 network and share with locations like OKC and Denver (before the CO move) didn't make any sense given their local geographic popularity. This is why the BYU move to an independent makes some sense. BYU's geographically centralized base provides a clear place for their network to thrive, and gives the University/network leverage in negotiating with cable providers. Either the BE as it currently stands or the proposed new BE doesn't seem to have that kind of leverage.