MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: tower912 on September 17, 2010, 07:05:29 AM
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Everybody would love an aircraft carrier that commands a double team in the post. There aren't that many out there. Looking at who Buzz seems to be chasing and who he has brought in, IMO he isn't looking for one. He is looking to get the same type of players we have, just taller. He wants a 6'9 JB/JW/JF. He wants to run the same offense we ran last year with no true posts, but with two 6'8/9" guys, two interchangeable wings, and a point. Or, guys who can run, dribble, and shoot. You look at the guys he is after, the kid who is coming to MM (6'8"SF), and you realize that he is looking for guys who fit his system, just like Bo does. But his system wants lots of guys who can play 4 different spots.
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I am of two thoughts on your assertion. On the one hand, I generally disagree that he would not recruit a true highly rated 5. If one came along and he was interested in MU, Buzz would be all over him like a cheap suit. He has recruited projects at center (Otule, Mbao, McMorrow) so why would he recruit them if they don't fit the system? I think he recognizes the need for size in the middle, especially on the defensive end.
On the other hand, (this is where I more or less agree with you), Buzz wants the most skilled, hardest working, toughest, 5 basketball players on the floor at the same time. If that means we play with 5 guards with no one over 6'4" tall, so be it.
I don't think it is so much of a system as adapting a game plan to fit the best personnel. If we are optimistic and Gardner turns into a low post scoring threat, the offense will look quite a bit different when he is on the floor than it did last year for example when you had 5 guys standing on the 3pt line trying to drive and kick. Buzz wants the 5 toughest guys on the floor and will game plan accordingly.
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I don't think it is so much of a system as adapting a game plan to fit the best personnel.
It'd be interesting to see if Buzz wants to do different things offensively based on who he has on the floor at the time.
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Yes, Buzz has actually brought in a lot of big guys. Unfortunately, none of them have contributed yet. And, I am sure that if a big were to commit, he would take him. But I think if he was able to run a team out there with 2 6'9 wings, a couple of 6'5 wings, and a point, (A) if they were the hardest working players, he would do it and (B) that team would be big enough. Hey, maybe CO or DG blows up and Buzz throws it into the post often enough to recruit more bigs. It sure would be nice to find out and be proven wrong. But Buzz can win by recruiting tall enough wings. A couple of 6'9 Lazar/Butler/Wes's would be big enough against 99% of the teams out there.
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6'9" is big enough in the college game if you have some muscle in there. There really are only a handful, if even, of really solid players bigger than that each year it seems to me. Xavier always has a bunch of athletes out there, often in that 6'8"-6'9" range, and Michigan St has at times done well with 6'7-6'8" guys who are strong enough to push people around. True, Xavier doesn't play in the Big East, but they have have far more tourney success than most teams, including us and many of the top tier Big East teams.
If there's a 6'11" athletic 4 or 5 star out there, I'm sure Buzz would like to have them, but if it comes down to a total 6'11" project and an athletic stud at 6'9", pretty sure Buzz would gladly grab the latter.
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The game of basketball is going the way of the multi-skilled, versatile, long player. The days of dump down basketball, clear out and let the big go to work are pretty much going the way of the dinosaur. Unless you can recruit true elite, 5-star big man - such as a DeMarcus Cousins/Shaq or some other CLEARLY dominate player - in this day and age you will be just as well served having a team full of athletic, interchangeable parts, who can: pass, dribble and shoot.
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I think Buzz wants centers that are mobile like Mbao was. No telling how good Mbao could of got if he put on 30-50 lbs. I suspect he did not have the toughness that Buzz looks for, but he could run the floor. As I used to say he was the best looking worst player I ever saw. He come in the game and look really good running down the floor with that height, but then he could not do anything.
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Huh? Buzz will sign a legit 5 when he's able. He knows it's a big man's game.
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i garee I cannot see Buzz signing a "true 5" in the sense of a back to the basket type as in a rik Smits or a Rony Seikaly you name it. In fact there are not that many of those guys out there any more the game has changed...now a 6'10 kid is tought to face up and handle the ball etc. etc. pik and pop type player.
I do se as has been said Buzz recruiting htehr you want to call them a true5 or not but a kid that can get up and down the court ala a Greg Monroe or players of that ilk the 5's of today. Buzz wants to play transition ball if you are not athletic and cannot run ...the Big Ten is the place for you not the BE
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I do se as has been said Buzz recruiting htehr you want to call them a true5 or not but a kid that can get up and down the court ala a Greg Monroe or players of that ilk the 5's of today. Buzz wants to play transition ball if you are not athletic and cannot run ...the Big Ten is the place for you not the BE
Blair was a back-to-the-basket type of player and he did just fine. Onuaku was a back-to-the-basket type of player and he did fine. Josh Boone. Even Thabeet was a post-up center (though most of his points came off of offensive rebounds).
My point is that you obviously cant play transition ball on every possession. And when you cant, a center with traditional post-up move is nice to have. Monroe was a bit different because of the offense he played in (Calhoun and Boeheim would have parked him right under the basket).
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Blair was a back-to-the-basket type of player and he did just fine. Onuaku was a back-to-the-basket type of player and he did fine. Josh Boone. Even Thabeet was a post-up center (though most of his points came off of offensive rebounds).
My point is that you obviously cant play transition ball on every possession. And when you cant, a center with traditional post-up move is nice to have. Monroe was a bit different because of the offense he played in (Calhoun and Boeheim would have parked him right under the basket).
Blair was a good back to the basket guy for sure. Onuaka - you'd know better than me, but I don't recall him being a guy that you dump down to, clear out, and let him go to work? As has been said..if you are lucky enough to land that elite 5..you absolutely take the kid..but...even if not playing in transition ball..if you have an athletice 6'8" guy that can shoot it from distance and handle the ball..that is your "5", it pulls that big man away from the basket, creates driving lanes for the other athletic wings..and you can do some damage in the halfcourt that way.
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I honestly find this thread a bit ridiculous. Buzz is currently recruiting multiple true centers, such as Cameron Ridley and Trey McDonald, for future classes. He tried relentlessly to get a true center for the 2010 class, guys like Dieng and Maurice Walker, but was unable to get the one he wanted. He has brought in centers like Mbao and McMurrow. He has stated in the past that he would ideally sign one true center and one pg in every class. So why does anyone think he will "never recruit a true 5", when he clearly has and is?
Just because he hasn't landed the true center he, and we, are all hoping for, doesn't mean he doesn't want one.
I don't mean to say that the overall emphasis of his team isn't on athletic wings, because that is clearly the type of player Buzz wants to build around. But Buzz knows that size matters and any team without adequate size on it has a ceiling on it.
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isn't Otule a true 5?
How about Mike Thorne? We have an offer out on him. He's 6'10 and 240. Seems to have some truthiness at the 5.
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Blair was a good back to the basket guy for sure. Onuaka - you'd know better than me, but I don't recall him being a guy that you dump down to, clear out, and let him go to work? As has been said..if you are lucky enough to land that elite 5..you absolutely take the kid..but...even if not playing in transition ball..if you have an athletice 6'8" guy that can shoot it from distance and handle the ball..that is your "5", it pulls that big man away from the basket, creates driving lanes for the other athletic wings..and you can do some damage in the halfcourt that way.
Onuaku averaged 10 per last year and shot 67% from the field. With two bum knees, you know he wasnt getting his points in transition. Rick Jackson is the same way -- nothing but a back-to-the-basket game. I guess I dont understand why you would really want a center that can hit outside shots. We're talking about college bball, not the NBA where every team has a true center and there isnt much of an advantage. College teams have a huge advantage when there is a true center on the team because most of the competition wont have one. Park the kid under the basket and let him dominate. Monroe disappeared too many minutes last year because he liked to get the ball 15 feet from the rim and would have to pass or take a couple dribbles and hit a jump shot. Still think GTown would have been more successful last year if Monroe was more consistent and aggressive down low.
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I have to disagree...when some one says "true" or "old school" 5 the names of Arinze Onuaku...Dejuan Blair ...and Josh boone absolutely do not come to mind. is a 6'7" kid a true 5? Josh boone played the 4.
I will however concede that Syracuse and Uconn even throw in GT are three of the very very very few schools that recruit and consistently get big time 5's. that is primarily due to there long and established history with them.
Dieng, Mcdonald and thorne are not "old school 5's ...they are big and very athletic and can run the court and are more 4's then back to the basket post ups.
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If I were coaching today I'd go for the mobile/athletic 6'8" guy and line them up wide rather than recruit 6' 10" projects. More of those around (6' 8" guys), and doubling down on the single post ups makes them obsolete.Takes a very talented big to beat the double down particularily from the blind side either by outmanuvering the double team or locating the open guy on the perimeter.
When facing up to the hoop off the wide post just outside the lane the double down is a lot easier to handle as the postup can see things developing.
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I honestly find this thread a bit ridiculous. Buzz is currently recruiting multiple true centers, such as Cameron Ridley and Trey McDonald, for future classes. He tried relentlessly to get a true center for the 2010 class, guys like Dieng and Maurice Walker, but was unable to get the one he wanted. He has brought in centers like Mbao and McMurrow. He has stated in the past that he would ideally sign one true center and one pg in every class. So why does anyone think he will "never recruit a true 5", when he clearly has and is?
Just because he hasn't landed the true center he, and we, are all hoping for, doesn't mean he doesn't want one.
I don't mean to say that the overall emphasis of his team isn't on athletic wings, because that is clearly the type of player Buzz wants to build around. But Buzz knows that size matters and any team without adequate size on it has a ceiling on it.
Not gettingnthis "He hasn't landed a true center yet. " Isn't Gardner a true center--even if he is not top 50?
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Liam McMorrow
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Not gettingnthis "He hasn't landed a true center yet. " Isn't Gardner a true center--even if he is not top 50?
Gardner isn't athletic enought at 6' 7or8" to be a true center-----also he liked to play on the perimeter a lot in the Pro am-----he's more of a #4 type-----the type of big I describe several posts above.
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Gardner isn't athletic enought at 6' 7or8" to be a true center-----also he liked to play on the perimeter a lot in the Pro am-----he's more of a #4 type-----the type of big I describe several posts above.
Aren't power forwards usually more athletic than centers? If a guy isn't athletic enough to be a center, by what logic is he athletic enough to be/guard a 4?
In your post from before, you talk about how a guy at 6'8 (Gardner is 6'8) is more mobile than a true center, yet then say Gardner isn't athletic (i.e. mobile) enough to play center, a position where less mobility is required, and say Gardner is a power forward. Total contradiction.
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Mark Charles,
One can be mobile without being athletic-----I equate athleticism with quickness and jumping ability---
specifically one can be mobile without havihg good hops or quickness (Gardner).
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Mark Charles,
One can be mobile without being athletic-----I equate athleticism with quickness and jumping ability---
specifically one can be mobile without havihg good hops or quickness (Gardner).
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I do agree that Gardner isn't a true center. A lot of people compare him to Robert Jackson; however, Damon Key would be a much better comparison. Key had great touch out to the 3 point line, had a nice jump hook in the post, and was a good rebounder. Neither one can be described as athletic. Key played power forward throughout his career along side Jimmy Mac.
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So you guys are saying Gardner is not a true center! I disagree.
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Mark Charles,
One can be mobile without being athletic-----I equate athleticism with quickness and jumping ability---
specifically one can be mobile without havihg good hops or quickness (Gardner).
Yes, one can be mobile without being athletic. But the more mobile you are, the more athletic you are. Mobility=movement, and ease of movement is essential to any definition of athleticism. What exactly defines having good mobility to you, if not moving your feet fast (quickness) or jumping?
My main point, however, is that to say a guy isn't athletic enough to be a center, but is actually a power forward is counter-intuitive, as power forwards are more athletic than center as a whole.
I haven't seen Gardner beyond the videos posted here, but his game seems more suited to be a 5. At least thats what I hope he concentrates on becoming, as I think he could be a damn good center if he really improves his hops and conditioning. Being a 4 in Buzz's system puts him out on the wings a lot more. I know he has solid skills for such a big guy, but I don't see how he beats out any of our wing guys for playing time if hes a 4.
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I agree with MarkCharles. Gardner does seem to be more of a 5 based on his size. I think in due time he will realize that will be his position in college and learn how to play effectively. Right now he is just the most realistic option as a backup center.
I don't see how Buzz won't eventually land a very talented center during his tenure at Marquette. Sure, they're hard to get and there aren't many, but he has proven in the past he can recruit good big men. He's put together a couple great recruiting classes already, so I will be shocked if we don't get at least one very talented big man while he's here. I'm not talking top 10 or 20, but a top 50 player at center doesn't seem far-fetched at all.
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I don't understand why a true 5 has to be a guy who posts up and does nothing else. I want a big guy who can:
clean the glass, so we don't have to rebound with 5 guys and we can get out in transition better;
clog the paint and alter shots on defense;
set picks, pick-and-roll, and play some in the post (don't care how many double teams he draws);
offensive rebound to get us extra possessions and easy shots, and
body up other big men to stop them from getting good position and easy shots.
I think there's value in all those things, and MU struggles to get these guys and keep them healthy.
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In my opinion, Gardner is a 5. At 6'8", 275(?), he is a college center. The problem with him is that he apparently doesnt have the skillset for a 5. Since he has an outside jumpshot, some might say he is a 4. Thats fine. But that also the problem. Maybe thats why he didnt sign until the 11th hour in the recruiting season. What the hell do college coaches do with him? How does he fit a system? Do you really want a 6'8", 275 lb kid taking shots from 15-20ft? Hell no. Thats the job of the guards and the forwards. A coach should want his size right under the damn basket. Besides, how tough would it be to guard Gardner's jumper? He's not going to pump fake, put it on the floor, drive to the basket in traffic and dunk it. He's a big kid. Aint happening. Forget the jumper and keep him within 10 ft of the rim whenever he is on the floor.
This is why I dont think he will play much during the conference schedule. He really needs to re-define his game. And it will probably take 3 years like most unheralded centers in the BE.
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In my opinion, Gardner is a 5. At 6'8", 275(?), he is a college center. The problem with him is that he apparently doesnt have the skillset for a 5. Since he has an outside jumpshot, some might say he is a 4. Thats fine. But that also the problem. Maybe thats why he didnt sign until the 11th hour in the recruiting season. What the hell do college coaches do with him? How does he fit a system? Do you really want a 6'8", 275 lb kid taking shots from 15-20ft? Hell no. Thats the job of the guards and the forwards. A coach should want his size right under the damn basket. Besides, how tough would it be to guard Gardner's jumper? He's not going to pump fake, put it on the floor, drive to the basket in traffic and dunk it. He's a big kid. Aint happening. Forget the jumper and keep him within 10 ft of the rim whenever he is on the floor.
This is why I dont think he will play much during the conference schedule. He really needs to re-define his game. And it will probably take 3 years like most unheralded centers in the BE.
I will need to rewatch the videos of him but your post is not at all how i recall him. He does in fact do alot of what you say he doesnt and i dont recall mnay 15-20 footers ...also lets not forget aau and pro-am ball is not the same as BE bball he will not have the liberty to take those shots unless he can hit with a very good percentage.
another poster had compared his game to that of Damon Key..now yes key had a great baseline jumper and could step it out to a2 and 20 he got it done inside his size got him aship load of layups that size and agility was good for 4-5 layups a game and led the team in rebounding for a few years and he rebounded really well.
now i dont think devonte will have the freshman year as did key becuse all though his game is similar to keys i dont know if his talent isthere ... key was much more highly rated and only a sreally spcial player can have a key type freshman year in the BE.
I see him playing a power 4 in the same mold as a Dwight burke did for Buzz. He may not be there this year but i see that as his role going forward. Now burke did not score alot but had Burke the offensive capablity to score more the shots were there and he would have seen the ball more. I dont think anyone thinks Devonte is gonna be on the perimeter. least of all devonte Key never shot the three till his senior year