The case for Jimmy F. Butler as the Big East POY
Written by: noreply@blogger.com (Rob Lowe)
This article from Jeff Eisenberg (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Big-East-preview-Five-storylines-to-watch-next-?urn=ncaab-267496) really got our juices flowing earlier this week as did this scouting review with Mike Gansey (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Big-East-preview-Scouting-the-league-with-ex-WV?urn=ncaab-267682). In both of these articles Jimmy F. Butler (http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/jimmy_butler) was named the "Most Underrated Player" in the Big East.
One is anomaly, two is a trend. As the start of the season gets closer we are sure that Butler's name will consistently be placed in the "most underrated" category, yet he will be ignored in far too many pre-season evaluations of the Big East's best players.
No offense to Jeff and his good intentions, but underrated lists are a back-handed compliment to a player as seasoned and productive as Jimmy F. Butler. Throwing Butler on a list of underrated players is nothing more than code for 'east coast bias' or 'MU is not a traditional Big East power.' Simply put, Jimmy F. Butler should be discussed as a logical choice for the pre-season Big East Player of the Year.
Jimmy F. Butler for BE POY!
For the first time in recent memory the race for Big East Player of the Year appears to be wide-open. The league lacks a sure-fire NBA lottery pick amongst its proven upper-classmen and instead offers a host of talented players who are statistically comparable and will be expected to take major leaps forward this winter.
Let's look at the potential competition. Some of the candidates being tossed around the interwebs are 6'3 senior Austin Freeman (GU) (http://www.guhoyas.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/freeman_austin00.html), 6'1 senior Chris Wright (GU) (http://www.guhoyas.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/wright_chris00.html), 6'2 junior Ashton Gibbs (Pitt) (http://www.pittsburghpanthers.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/gibbs_ashton00.html), 6'1 senior Chris Wright (Nova) (http://www.villanova.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/fisher_corey00.html), 6'1 junior Kemba Walker (UConn) (http://www.uconnhuskies.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/walker_kemba00.html), 6'8 junior Kevin Jones (WVU) (http://espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=41841), and 6'7 junior Kris Joseph (SU) (http://www.suathletics.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=7750&path=mbasket).
How does Butler compare to the other POY candidates?
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Xpuy4viivhI/TIkYhhtBLOI/AAAAAAAAAp8/DKMaW1-ZItM/s320/Butler+for+POY.png)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Xpuy4viivhI/TIkYhhtBLOI/AAAAAAAAAp8/DKMaW1-ZItM/s1600/Butler+for+POY.png)
The chart above shows the players across different categories, with the average at the bottom. The player with the best comparables by category is highlighted in green.
Let's start where Jimmy F. Butler is the best in the entire Big East. Out of the group listed above Butler led all players in field goal percentage (0.530) last season. Butler got to the line and made the most free throws amongst this peer group. JFB also had the lowest turnover rate (technically tied with Gibbs above but better according to Pomeroy) (http://kenpom.com/leaders.php?c=TORate&y=2010). All of which leads to JFB being the most efficient returning player in the Big EAST (http://kenpom.com/leaders.php?c=ORtg) (ORtg of 128.5). This should not come as a surprise, since Butler was the conference's most efficient offensive performer last season too.
Back to the statistical comparison. Butler was also the second best rebounder among the other potential candidates and had the second most blocks (both behind West Virginia's Kevin Jones).
Now for the intangibles; we believe Jimmy Butler is the Big East's best clutch performer. Why don't we revisit his two game winning shots from last year? First he hit the game winning shot at UConn.
http://www.youtube.com/v/PDBbyen3Cqs?fs=1&hl=en_US
Then JFB delivered in overtime, on the road at St. John's.
http://www.youtube.com/v/AD5p_kg5oAo?fs=1&hl=en_US
Plus, don't forget how:
- Butler scored 5 of his 13 total points against SHU last year in overtime & assisted on the only MU 3-pointer of the extra period.
- Butler's breakaway dunk at Cincy in the waning moments was the backbreaker for the Bearcats in that game.
- Butler scored 5 of MU's final 7 points to seal the win at Providence.
Where does Butler not stand out as the best in the Big EAST?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Xpuy4viivhI/TIkY4YMQ0oI/AAAAAAAAAqE/iKVFJzIt4Jg/s320/Butler+for+POY+-+part+b.png)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Xpuy4viivhI/TIkY4YMQ0oI/AAAAAAAAAqE/iKVFJzIt4Jg/s1600/Butler+for+POY+-+part+b.png)
For starters in points per game, where JFB's average of 14.7 ppg puts him behind Freeman, Wright, and Gibbs but ahead of Fisher, Walker, Jones, Joseph. The highest returning average in this group is Freeman's 16.5 ppg. Butler is also also in middle of this pack on assists, steals, and player fouls -- though he averaged more assists per game than Gibbs, a guard, and more steals per game than Freeman or Gibbs.
Finally, JFB was below average on total usage during his junior season, which simply means he just didn't get enough shots while playing second fiddle to Lazar Hayward (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=4277). This season Butler will be asked to step up his total usage and lead the Warriors. You don't think Butler can step up? Consider that last year he upped his scoring from 5.6 to 14.7 ppg, and his offensive efficiency only dropped from 131.2 to 128.5 -- the best in the Big East, both years.
That's right. JFB was the Big East's most efficient offensive player as both a sophomore and junior. How good has Jimmy been at Marquette? He was fourth in the country in this category as a sophomore and seventh in the nation as a junior.
Again, why is this guy popping up on underrated lists?
Is Jimmy F. Butler the best player in the Big East?
It's too early to say, and that's the point. There is nobody in the list of potential candidates that is clearly the best player. The race for BE POY is wide open, and JFB is in the race. We believe JFB begins the race in the pole position but few seem to agree with us.
Let's stop talking about Butler being underrated and start talking about Jimmy F. Butler as the Big East Player of the Year.
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2010/09/case-for-jimmy-f-butler-as-big-east-poy.html
All the n00bs on the team that read this probably didn't know Jimmy's middle name starts with an F. :D
Interesting. But I dont hold much value in individual accolades. I can probably name the last 10 teams to win the conference, but no way in hell could I name the last 10 BE POY winners.
The problem is that Jimmy may not even be the best player on the team this year, I think DJO really improves after viewing him this
summer, and college is a guard league. Seeing Cadougan improvement, as well as Dwight, add Vanders points, Butler's points may go
down this year, not up.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on September 10, 2010, 09:28:20 AM
All the n00bs on the team that read this probably didn't know Jimmy's middle name starts with an F. :D
I always thought it was MF.
Quote from: MUfan12 on September 10, 2010, 09:48:40 AM
I always thought it was MF.
That's only used when he does something wrong.
Quote from: Benny B on September 10, 2010, 09:51:14 AM
That's only used when he does something wrong.
Jimmy F Butler is infallible.
Quote from: goodgreatgrand on September 10, 2010, 09:30:27 AM
Interesting. But I dont hold much value in individual accolades. I can probably name the last 10 teams to win the conference, but no way in hell could I name the last 10 BE POY winners.
Let me help you out
Big East Conference Men's Basketball Player of the Year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_East_Conference_Men%27s_Basketball_Player_of_the_Year)
In principle, I agree with your statement. However, we both know what Marquette is going to do as a team this year. They'll finish 5th-7th, make the NCAA tournament, and (probably) lose the first game. So, if winning the league isn't really an option...
Quote from: BCHoopster on September 10, 2010, 09:30:39 AM
The problem is that Jimmy may not even be the best player on the team this year, I think DJO really improves after viewing him this summer, and college is a guard league. Seeing Cadougan improvement, as well as Dwight, add Vanders points, Butler's points may go down this year, not up.
Agreed that DJO may make the leap this year. Disagree that Butler's points will go down. Not as a senior and the leader of the team.
Still, our point remains that whatever you think of the BE POY award itself, or if Butler will even be as good as DJO, he deserves to be in the preseason conversation.
This is us providing some preseason hype.
Quote from: BCHoopster on September 10, 2010, 09:30:39 AM
The problem is that Jimmy may not even be the best player on the team this year,
D.J.O.
Quote from: CrackedSidewalksSays on September 10, 2010, 09:15:03 AM
Now for the intangibles; Jimmy Butler is the Big East's best clutch performer. This point is not up for debate.
I'm not exactly sure what this means because I am not sure how you measure something like this. Jimmy has been put in situations where he has taken the last second shot, and he has hit those shots. Is that clutch? I guess. Does that make him the best clutch performer? I don't know if anyone can say that.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on September 10, 2010, 10:22:08 AM
I'm not exactly sure what this means because I am not sure how you measure something like this. Jimmy has been put in situations where he has taken the last second shot, and he has hit those shots. Is that clutch? I guess. Does that make him the best clutch performer? I don't know if anyone can say that.
There's much more evidence of Jimmy's clutch play down the stretch:
- Butler scored 5 of his 13 total points against SHU last year in overtime & assisted on the only MU 3-pointer of the extra period.
- Butler's breakaway dunk at Cincy in the waning moments was the backbreaker for the Bearcats in that game.
- Butler scored 5 of MU's final 7 points to seal the win at Providence.
The WVU game aside (and many from the team contributed to that gaffe), Butler was reliable down the stretch of games.
Yeah, but I am sure that all sorts of players do those sorts of things for their teams. I guess the "this point is not up for debate" is what made me snicker. I mean, since it can't be really measured, it is thrown into the vast pool of "intangibles," but since it can't be measured how can it not be up for debate?
Just say "he's been proven to be a clutch performer."
Quote from: NYWarrior on September 10, 2010, 10:27:56 AM
There's much more evidence of Jimmy's clutch play down the stretch:
- Butler scored 5 of his 13 total points against SHU last year in overtime & assisted on the only MU 3-pointer of the extra period.
- Butler's breakaway dunk at Cincy in the waning moments was the backbreaker for the Bearcats in that game.
- Butler scored 5 of MU's final 7 points to seal the win at Providence.
The WVU game aside (and many from the team contributed to that gaffe), Butler was reliable down the stretch of games.
Hit two huge FTs to push the lead to 3 against Georgetown as well.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on September 10, 2010, 10:22:08 AM
I'm not exactly sure what this means because I am not sure how you measure something like this.
You can't measure intangibles. That is what the word means.
Jimmy has been put in situations where he has taken the last second shot, and he has hit those shots. Is that clutch?
Yes, that is what clutch means
I guess.
No, it's not a guess. That is what everyone here takes clutch to mean. Making plays at the end of the game, when it's on the line.
Does that make him the best clutch performer? I don't know if anyone can say that.
Pretty sure that he was being tongue in cheek when he said the point wasn't up to debate. But you are wrong, someone can say that and back it up.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on September 10, 2010, 10:36:42 AM
Yeah, but I am sure that all sorts of players do those sorts of things for their teams. I guess the "this point is not up for debate" is what made me snicker. I mean, since it can't be really measured, it is thrown into the vast pool of "intangibles," but since it can't be measured how can it not be up for debate?
Just say "he's been proven to be a clutch performer."
How is "this point is not up for debate" & "[it has] been proven" even a little different?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on September 10, 2010, 10:36:42 AM
Yeah, but I am sure that all sorts of players do those sorts of things for their teams. I guess the "this point is not up for debate" is what made me snicker. I mean, since it can't be really measured, it is thrown into the vast pool of "intangibles," but since it can't be measured how can it not be up for debate?
Just say "he's been proven to be a clutch performer."
I agree with you and changed the post
Maybe not POY but 1st team for sure.
Quote from: RawdogDX on September 10, 2010, 10:43:14 AM
How is "this point is not up for debate" & "[it has] been proven" even a little different?
In one case, he is making an absolute statement: "JB is the best clutch player in the BE." To me, that cannot be said without some sort of measurable that backs it up. I sincerely do not know if that is the case or not. Prove it to me.
Another is a general statement: "JB is a clutch performer." There is enough evidence to suggest that this is the case without needing a measurable.
And I saw Henry that the post was changed...you know I'm just being a little picky when in a posting with a bunch of measurable statistics, there is a phrase like that thrown in! :)
I'll just say that I think Austin Freeman is far and away the clear cut candidate for preseason POY. (well of course I do right)
Flat out I think he's the best player. I could throw out stats to make an argument and will if prompted, but stats can be twisted a lot of ways to make arguments.
He's the best scorer in the big east look at the games against Uconn and louisville.
I do agree that butler is underrated and should be a candidate for POY.
The real difference between Butler and the other candidates: Gibbs, Walker, Fischer, and Freeman is that Butler wasn't seen as a star or a leader last year. Gibbs, walker, Fischer, and Freeman are big names and leaders on their team. Butler is probably your best player next year, but it's not so clear cut as it is with these other players.
The main reason Butler isn't being considered is hype. But I don't necessarily blame the media for fans for that. Butler is an efficient scorer, but he doesn't put up huge numbers and isn't flashy.
Another point to look at is that the POY is usually the best player on the team that wins the conference or at least a team in the top 4. I think it will be a 3 horse race between Gibbs, Fischer, and Freeman because I see those 3 teams at the top of the league. I think Uconn's going to be too far down the conference ladder for Walker to get the award and frankly am not a fan of his game. If Butler and marquette have a good season and surprise he's a real possibility because he's a great basketball player.
Quote from: hoyasincebirth on September 10, 2010, 04:35:29 PM
I'll just say that I think Austin Freeman is far and away the clear cut candidate for preseason POY. (well of course I do right)
Flat out I think he's the best player. I could throw out stats to make an argument and will if prompted, but stats can be twisted a lot of ways to make arguments.
He's the best scorer in the big east look at the games against Uconn and louisville.
I do agree that butler is underrated and should be a candidate for POY.
The real difference between Butler and the other candidates: Gibbs, Walker, Fischer, and Freeman is that Butler wasn't seen as a star or a leader last year. Gibbs, walker, Fischer, and Freeman are big names and leaders on their team. Butler is probably your best player next year, but it's not so clear cut as it is with these other players.
The main reason Butler isn't being considered is hype. But I don't necessarily blame the media for fans for that. Butler is an efficient scorer, but he doesn't put up huge numbers and isn't flashy.
Another point to look at is that the POY is usually the best player on the team that wins the conference or at least a team in the top 4. I think it will be a 3 horse race between Gibbs, Fischer, and Freeman because I see those 3 teams at the top of the league. I think Uconn's going to be too far down the conference ladder for Walker to get the award and frankly am not a fan of his game. If Butler and marquette have a good season and surprise he's a real possibility because he's a great basketball player.
please throw out stats
Quote from: hoyasincebirth on September 10, 2010, 04:35:29 PM
I'll just say that I think Austin Freeman is far and away the clear cut candidate for preseason POY. (well of course I do right)
Flat out I think he's the best player. I could throw out stats to make an argument and will if prompted, but stats can be twisted a lot of ways to make arguments.
He's the best scorer in the big east look at the games against Uconn and louisville.
I do agree that butler is underrated and should be a candidate for POY.
The real difference between Butler and the other candidates: Gibbs, Walker, Fischer, and Freeman is that Butler wasn't seen as a star or a leader last year. Gibbs, walker, Fischer, and Freeman are big names and leaders on their team. Butler is probably your best player next year, but it's not so clear cut as it is with these other players.
The main reason Butler isn't being considered is hype. But I don't necessarily blame the media for fans for that. Butler is an efficient scorer, but he doesn't put up huge numbers and isn't flashy.
Another point to look at is that the POY is usually the best player on the team that wins the conference or at least a team in the top 4. I think it will be a 3 horse race between Gibbs, Fischer, and Freeman because I see those 3 teams at the top of the league. I think Uconn's going to be too far down the conference ladder for Walker to get the award and frankly am not a fan of his game. If Butler and marquette have a good season and surprise he's a real possibility because he's a great basketball player.
friendly wager?
gtown doesn't finish top 3. Pitt, Nova and Cuse finish higher. Gtown takes 4th.
Quote from: hoyasincebirth on September 10, 2010, 04:35:29 PM
I'll just say that I think Austin Freeman is far and away the clear cut candidate for preseason POY. (well of course I do right)
Flat out I think he's the best player. I could throw out stats to make an argument and will if prompted, but stats can be twisted a lot of ways to make arguments.
He's the best scorer in the big east look at the games against Uconn and louisville.
Appreciate your thoughts and nice things you wrote about Jimmy Butler. In return, I do like Freeman as a player...BUT...I'm going to have to disagree with you...I strongly believe that Darius Johnson Odom will be the premier guard in the Big East this year. It would surprise me if Freeman puts up better numbers than DJO. I see DJO being a 19-22ppg player this year in Big East play. Now whether this translates into Big East POY - that probably will depend on if MU finishes higher than projected/very close to the top..say 1st or 2nd place.
It's a nice argument for JFB. However, there are a couple of things working against him:
#1 He's not selfish enough. I would say the main reason his offensive efficiency is consistently high is not because he played second fiddle to Hayward but because he does not take shots unless they are of the highest quality. MU should have a number of scorers so Jimmy will not have to carry the load or push the issue. Therefore, he will not have eye-popping scoring stats.
#2 An MU player will have to be significantly better than the competition in order to be named POY. Look at Zar v. Wes Johnson last year. Zar scored 1.5 more points per game on a team that tried to score in the 70's rather than the 90's. He had one less rebound per game, but that can be attributed at least partially to Zar having to box out the biggest guy on the opposition. WJ had freedom to go get rebounds, with 2 behemouths surrounding him. Steals, Zar was slightly better, and assists WJ was slightly better, but both had low assist totals and both had high steal totals. I understand that Johnson's offensive efficiency was most likely higher, but I doubt that's something that is high on the list of qualifications when someone's voting for POY. And rather than being a big asset at the end of the year, WJ was limited by a broken hand. Syracuse was much more balanced talent-wise than MU, and they did not rely heavily on Johnson to fill a huge gaping hole at the position he played.
That being said, if MU wins conference JFB should have a shot, so he should have a shot.
Quote from: Ners on September 10, 2010, 06:07:49 PM
Appreciate your thoughts and nice things you wrote about Jimmy Butler. In return, I do like Freeman as a player...BUT...I'm going to have to disagree with you...I strongly believe that Darius Johnson Odom will be the premier guard in the Big East this year. It would surprise me if Freeman puts up better numbers than DJO. I see DJO being a 19-22ppg player this year in Big East play. Now whether this translates into Big East POY - that probably will depend on if MU finishes higher than projected/very close to the top..say 1st or 2nd place.
If a player averages between 19-22 ppg, that player will typically finish in the top 3 in scoring in the conference. The last team to have a scorer finish in the top 3 and play on a team that finishes in the top 3 in the conference standings was ND in 07-08 (with Gody being the big scorer - ND finished 3rd). Before that was Foye who did it in 05-06 with Nova finishing 2nd. Statistically, its not necessarily a good thing to have a player score that many points. There are certainly exceptions. Im guessing Rudy Gay and Carmelo Anthony were able to do it and lead their team to success.
Quote from: goodgreatgrand on September 10, 2010, 06:53:54 PM
If a player averages between 19-22 ppg, that player will typically finish in the top 3 in scoring in the conference. The last team to have a scorer finish in the top 3 and play on a team that finishes in the top 3 in the conference standings was ND in 07-08 (with Gody being the big scorer - ND finished 3rd). Before that was Foye who did it in 05-06 with Nova finishing 2nd. Statistically, its not necessarily a good thing to have a player score that many points. There are certainly exceptions. Im guessing Rudy Gay and Carmelo Anthony were able to do it and lead their team to success.
I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but in the case of MU this year I can see MU greatly benefitting from DJO scoring 20ppg..as I'm not sure our young guys will be ready to produce much in the way of scoring. Think scoring will go in order: DJO (20ppg), Jimmy (17), Buycks (13), Crowder (10), Fulce (8) - and that these 5 will account for 80% of MU's points..with the other 20% coming from Junior Cadougan, Vander Blue, Reggie Smith and Chris Otule.
This math would put MU scoring 72.5 ppg. Probably about right for Big East play...
Quote from: Ners on September 10, 2010, 07:28:11 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with your point, but in the case of MU this year I can see MU greatly benefitting from DJO scoring 20ppg..as I'm not sure our young guys will be ready to produce much in the way of scoring. Think scoring will go in order: DJO (20ppg), Jimmy (17), Buycks (13), Crowder (10), Fulce (8) - and that these 5 will account for 80% of MU's points..with the other 20% coming from Junior Cadougan, Vander Blue, Reggie Smith and Chris Otule.
This math would put MU scoring 72.5 ppg. Probably about right for Big East play...
Actually that math would be 85 ppg. That's getting into 'Nova territory.
Quote from: NumenFlumenque on September 10, 2010, 07:42:39 PM
Actually that math would be 85 ppg. That's getting into 'Nova territory.
Thanks for the correction..and yes..85ppg would be a little high..I see us in the 70-76 range most nights..
JFB is bigger than the BE Conference....JFB is Mr. East. Kyle Singler? Nope. Jon Leuer? Nope. Jordan Hamilton? Nope. Jeff Taylor? Nope. Chris Singleton? Nope. When talking SF's, they named the F after JFB's middle name. The rest are posers.
http://statsheet.com/statplot/builder?obj1=chris-singleton&cat1=player&ds1=1&start_season1=2007-2008&end_season1=2009-2010&stattype1=overtf&stat1=offensive_rating_pct&title1=C.+Singleton+Offensive+Rating+&color_ds1=630000&size_ds1=3&obj2=2-jordan-hamilton&cat2=player&ds2=1&start_season2=2007-2008&end_season2=2009-2010&stattype2=overtf&stat2=offensive_rating_pct&title2=J.+Hamilton+Offensive+Rating+P&color_ds2=D65D00&size_ds2=3&obj3=jeffery-taylor&cat3=player&ds3=1&start_season3=2007-2008&end_season3=2009-2010&stattype3=overtf&stat3=offensive_rating_pct&title3=J.+Taylor+Offensive+Rating+Pct&color_ds3=CECF9C&size_ds3=3&obj4=kyle-singler&cat4=player&ds4=1&start_season4=2007-2008&end_season4=2009-2010&stattype4=overtf&stat4=offensive_rating_pct&title4=K.+Singler+Offensive+Rating+Pc&color_ds4=082473&size_ds4=3&obj5=jimmy-butler&cat5=player&ds5=1&start_season5=2007-2008&end_season5=2009-2010&stattype5=overtf&stat5=offensive_rating_pct&title5=J.+Butler+Offensive+Rating+Pct&color_ds5=00246A&size_ds5=3&ds6=1&start_season6=2007-2008&end_season6=2009-2010&cat6=player&stattype6=overtf&stat6=offensive_rating_pct&s=&chart_sport=collegebasketball&chart_descr=&chart_bgpic=&chart_reverse=0&chart_type=line&chart_trendline=0&chart_txtcolor=000000&chart_width=700&chart_bgcolor=ffffff&chart_height=350&chart_legend=1&chart_title=SF+Career+Off+Rating&season=multi&dsadd-749=jon-leuer&x=147&y=12
Quote from: CrackedSidewalksSays on September 10, 2010, 09:15:03 AM
One is anomaly, two is a trend.
Umm...no. Sorry, but while one may be an anomaly, that doesn't make two a trend. Two is a coincidence. Three is when it becomes a trend. Semantics, yes, but at least get your semantics right.
And I'd love to see JFB as the BEPOY :)
But that still doesn't make two a trend :P
Quote from: goodgreatgrand on September 10, 2010, 05:11:12 PM
friendly wager?
gtown doesn't finish top 3. Pitt, Nova and Cuse finish higher. Gtown takes 4th.
I don't think there's a big difference between 3rd and 4th, but sure I'd take that bet. I'm an extreme optimist so it could definitely bite me since the range for where the hoyas could finish this year is pretty wide again anywhere from 1st to 8th. I would say 4th is very fair and would be a success, but I think we finish top 3. what's the bet?
Quote from: boyonthedock on September 10, 2010, 04:44:00 PM
please throw out stats
Sorry forgot to check back to this thread.
Austin Freeman's eFG% is better than Butler's 60.2% vs. 55.9%
Austin Freeman's TS% is better than Butler's 63.4% vs. 63.2%
Austin Freeman's PPG is better than Butler's 16.5 vs. 14.7 although both players will probably go up next season.
Austin Freeman's Usage is higher 21.5 vs. 20.6 although both players will probably go up next season.
Austin Freeman's Assists and Assist rate are better 2.4 and 14.4 vs. 2.0 and 11.7
Austin Freeman's PF's and FC/40 are less 1.8 and 2.1 vs. 1.9 and 2.3
Austin Freeman's FT % is better 85.6% vs. 76.6%
Austin Freeman's 2ptFG% is better 56.8% vs. 53.4%
Austin Freeman is a better 3pt shooter hitting 44.4% on 133 shots. I know bulter's % was higher but he only took 32 of them.
Austin Freeman is a more explosive scorer at the Big East level scoring 33 and 29pts in big east play, reaching over 20 pts 9 times against big east opponents, and only not reaching doube digits in 4 contests all year. While Butler's highest marks against BE foes are 21 and 20 he only reached 20 pts in the big east season those 2 times and failed to reach double digits on 7 occasions.
as far as the major candidates:
Freeman has a better Ortg than Gibbs, Walker, and Fischer
Freeman has a better PPG than Gibbs, Walker, and Fischer
Freeman has a better FG% than Gibbs, Walker, and Fischer
Freeman has a better 3ptFG% than Gibbs, Walker, and Fischer
Freeman has a better 2ptFG% than Gibbs, Walker, and Fischer
Freeman has a better eFG% than Gibbs, Walker, and Fischer
Freeman has a better TS% than Gibbs, Walker, and Fischer
Freeman has a better OR% than Gibbs, Walker, and Fischer
Freeman has a better FT% than Walker, and Fischer but worse than Gibbs
Freeman has a better TOrate than Walker, and Fischer but worse than Gibbs
Freeman has a better DR% than Gibbs and Fischer but worse than Walker
Freeman has a better Arate than Gibbs but worse than Fischer and Walker which makes sense since the latter 2 are PGs while the first 2 are SGs.
Interesting comparisons between Butler and Freeman, with each poster choosing statistics that support his position (no surprise there), and each coming off looking convincing.
For me, the statistics (even the stats that Hoyasincebirth just posted) show that Butler should at least be included among those being talked about POY at this early stage, when there is no clear leading candidate. His stats are comparable to all others (Freeman included) that are mentioned.
That said, the thing that most grabbed me about Henry Sugar's first set of stats is not that only that Butler is the leader of numerous categories, but that in the second set, there was no clear leader across the categories. Again, I couldn't help but feel that he needs to be put among the list of potential POYs, even if an argument could be made for several players.
I will also note that JFB was playing out of position with no Big to distract the defense--although DJO and Zar were scorers to be reckoned with. Gtown had Monroe, the All BE Center that they ran their offense through. Will Freeman be as effective this season? Will Jimmy with Zar gone and with question marks all over the starting line-up?
While I think that GU's backcourt is the best in the BE, there are plenty of questions about their frontcourt. Some think that GU will be better with Monroe gone as he had too many touches. The Princeton Offense works better when running it through an impacful 5, is my feeling. Who has the stronger supporting cast? I don't know honestly at this point.
Quote from: mug644 on September 14, 2010, 12:24:24 AM
For me, the statistics (even the stats that Hoyasincebirth just posted) show that Butler should at least be included among those being talked about POY at this early stage, when there is no clear leading candidate. His stats are comparable to all others (Freeman included) that are mentioned.
That was exactly our point. Let's talk about Jimmy as one of those POY candidates.
Hoyafan likes his guy. We like ours. Both have reasonable arguments.
Hoya,
Who is going to run the triangle in 2011? Seems like GTown has been swinging and missing on every recruit. I just read that Thompson cancelled his visit....Is that true?
Quote from: mug644 on September 14, 2010, 12:24:24 AM
Interesting comparisons between Butler and Freeman, with each poster choosing statistics that support his position (no surprise there), and each coming off looking convincing.
For me, the statistics (even the stats that Hoyasincebirth just posted) show that Butler should at least be included among those being talked about POY at this early stage, when there is no clear leading candidate. His stats are comparable to all others (Freeman included) that are mentioned.
That said, the thing that most grabbed me about Henry Sugar's first set of stats is not that only that Butler is the leader of numerous categories, but that in the second set, there was no clear leader across the categories. Again, I couldn't help but feel that he needs to be put among the list of potential POYs, even if an argument could be made for several players.
In other words, what a guy does this year makes everything he did last year moot.
For example, if Rob Frozena averaged 32.4 ppg, 17.2 rpg, 11.1 apg and *gasp* 14.8 steals per game in 2010-11 (basically, he goes Teen Wolf on us), you better believe he's winning not only BEPOY, but probably National POY, Player of the Decade, Player of the Century, Playboy of the Month, etc. The fact that he has accumulated enough splinters in his buttocks over the past three years to fashion a Pinewood Derby car is irrelevant.
Quote from: Benny B on September 14, 2010, 11:31:01 AM
In other words, what a guy does this year makes everything he did last year moot.
Disagree somewhat. If Butler starts in the "First Team / POY" candidate pool, it's easier for him to stay in that candidate pool. If JFB starts on the outside of that candidate pool, his performance needs to be comparatively better in order to break in.
But yeah, he's got to produce on the court.
"I'll just say that I think Austin Freeman is far and away the clear cut candidate for preseason POY. (well of course I do right)
Flat out I think he's the best player. I could throw out stats to make an argument and will if prompted, but stats can be twisted a lot of ways to make arguments.
I do agree that butler is underrated and should be a candidate for POY."
just quoting my original post to show I agree with all the points made.
Butler deserves to be in the discussion and stats can easily be picked out to favor an argument.
I specifically pulled stats that favored freeman. They're all perfectly legitimate stats, but I purposely left out stats where freeman was weak.
I think this year we'll be much more guard oriented and want force any of our big men to try and do their best monroe imitation because i don't think any are ready to do that right now. I think down the line Nate Lubick will be able to fill that role of a passing big, but I don't think he's ready as a freshman.
Our recruiting right now is in the shits for 2011.
We're already making strong in roads with the 2012 class so I think it'll be a 1 down year thing not a trend.
The issue was we lost our lead assistant recruiter at a critical time. I definitely didn't think it would affect us as much as it has, but it did. We're seemingly pretty screwed right now for the 2011 class. There are still a few top 100 players listing us but we're not confident about any of them. Quinn Cook( long shot only way we get him is if others pass on him), Mikael Hopkins (pretty much same deal, but he's the one I feel best about), and Rodeney Hood(rumors are he's not even going to visit) and Angelo Chol( rumor is he recently cut us, but I haven't seen it anywhere yet) appear to be the last major recruits still considering us. And yes Thompson apparently just cut us after visiting ohio st even though he had a visit set up for this weekend >:( don't know what to make of that.
There are still options for 2011 but I feel we'll only sign 2 maybe 3 guys and they'll be under the radar top 150 guys/unranked 3 star guys. We'll still get guys who can contribute at the big east level as upperclassmen, but it seems like the ship may be sailing on getting any impact freshman who can be stars as freshman.
We'll still have talent in 2011-2012 but we'll be thin: Jason Clark and Henry Sims as seniors; Hollis thompson, Jerrelle Benimon, and Vee Sanford as juniors, Markel starks, Aaron Bowen, Nate Lubick, and Moses Abraham as sophomores. That's still plenty of talent but we'd be thin and it would require players to play up to their potential.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on September 14, 2010, 11:50:16 AM
Disagree somewhat. If Butler starts in the "First Team / POY" candidate pool, it's easier for him to stay in that candidate pool. If JFB starts on the outside of that candidate pool, his performance needs to be comparatively better in order to break in.
But yeah, he's got to produce on the court.
Let me rephrase... a player can make last season moot with a spectacular performance this year. Someone can come out of nowhere and become a clear-cut POY... sure, he has more work to do, but nobody is going to disqualify a guy with a Wooden-worthy performance this year just because he didn't have one last year.
Basically, Jimmy Butler isn't on the list now. That's not within his control. But getting on the list and staying on the list is. All he has to do is demonstrate that he is better than everyone else. If he does, he's POY; if he doesn't, then he shouldn't be.