MUScoop

Tough question - but just curious to see how we see this debate.  Share your year of MU attendance/graduation or year you became a fan..along with your answer..

I voted D-Wade.  1997 Alum.

I'm the biggest Wade fan but the guy couldn't hold Al's jock strap (I'm 28, not 82 BTW).  Al put Marquette on the map and brought home more than a decade of top 10 teams, and while wade carried a team to the final four it just can't compare to the work Al did on behalf of Marquette.

For alumni I think the majority would answer McGuire.

For recruiting and incoming students it has to be DWade.

I became a fan in '94?? when I was a young kid watching MU make the sweet sixteen by pummeling Kentucky and then playing Duke.  

That was the bait and the hook was set in 1999 when Crean came on.   I was excited by his potential.

Looking back I'd give the credit to Kevin O'Neil though.

(I don't think that answers the op's question but whatever.)

Not even close.  There is no Wade without Al.

If there was no Al at Marquette, Wade's teams would be like Steph Curry's teams at Davidson.  Al established MU as a credible national program.

Watch the Final Four...you can almost always bet the over of 2.5 for Al mentions during the 3 games.

You could also bet the under of .5 for Wade.

Wade is big now.  Al is big always.

Recent relevance suggests DWade.
But Legacy means "for prosperity" and that is AL.

Invoke the spirited 1977 Championship run, you're invoking AL.
Invoke the glorious hey-days of MU basketball, you're - so far, still - invoking AL.


DWade played on Al McGuire Court.

NUFF SAID.


A&S 1997

Not even a contest. Al was and still is bigger than life. His legacy lives through the countless people he touched in his life. I am 47 years old and my kids range from 15-23 and all of them know more about Al's life than DWade's.

DWade was the best player ever to wear a Warrior jersey in my opinion but Al left a footprint that is bigger than life.

In college sports you just can't compare a coaching legend to any individual player. The contributions of Wooden at UCLA, Knight at IU, Coach K at Duke, etc., will always far outstrip those of even their brightest stars. The same is true regarding Al at Marquette.

I do think that D Wade is the  most important player ever to wear a Marquette uniform, edging out George Thompson. But he's not even in the same conversation with Al McGuire.

I'm a 1970 grad but I'm every bit as much of a fan now as I was during the McGuire era.

Graduating in May. Al made this place.


I agree with the Steph Curry Davidson comment .

When I started MU in the fall of 1971 they were just closing the city streets that ran though the campus. There were 3 or 4 cross streets that ran from Wisconsin to Clybourn. In my time I saw several old buildings razed and several new buildings. A lot of that had to indirectly due with MU basketball under McGuire making MU a well known university. McGuire's impacted the whole University not just the basketball program.

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on September 01, 2010, 09:48:11 AM
DWade played on Al McGuire Court.

It's also worth pointing out that Al's name was on the front of Wade's jersey.

CJPA '91

Quote from: Skatastrophy on September 01, 2010, 09:20:18 AM
For alumni I think the majority would answer McGuire.

For recruiting and incoming students it has to be DWade.

my thoughts exactly.

Why rank them, There is a stage full of people important to the Warrior legacy, Except DiUhlio he is dead last

I would have to go with a Warrior i.e. Mcguire 

Quote from: Skatastrophy on September 01, 2010, 09:20:18 AM
For alumni I think the majority would answer McGuire.

For recruiting and incoming students it has to be DWade.

Probably the best and most succienct point...guess my feeling is that DWade's association with MU helps tremendously in present day awareness/recruiting.  Al put MU on the map for sure, Wade is helping to keep MU on the map.

Al may have had a bigger impact after he retired.  He grew college basketball as a business with his commentary, quips and story telling.  In fact, he made Ray Meyer famous outside of Chicago, gave props to Digger, Dookie V., Fat Rick, Little Louie, Rollie, GT, etc..  He made college coaches the star--they should write a check to him every year as he never earned a fortune in coaching.  All of this spotlight also shined and continues to shine on MU.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on September 01, 2010, 11:53:27 AM
Al may have had a bigger impact after he retired.  He grew college basketball as a business with his commentary, quips and story telling.  In fact, he made Ray Meyer famous outside of Chicago, gave props to Digger, Dookie V., Fat Rick, Little Louie, Rollie, GT, etc..  He made college coaches the star--they should write a check to him every year as he never earned a fortune in coaching.  All of this spotlight also shined and continues to shine on MU.

Al probably would have stayed at MU if coaches were paid as they are now. 

"F You...pay me."

I think you need an influential and successful Athlete/Coach in every generation to keep programs relevent in the present day.  Marquette had success before Al, grew to national prominence with Al, and while respected throughout the 80's and 90's, needed a fresh face with Final 4 success for a new generation.  
When Bob Knight retired from I.U, who picks up the pieces?  Who will bring in new recruits?  (for all the people who will start this into an anti-Crean thread).  While it all starts and stops with the coach, players having NBA success is a critical part of today's recruiting.  
Would North Carolina get the top recruits every year if they didn't have Jordan walk through their halls?
So, I voted for D-Wade.  

Regards,
Rebel Rowser from the Class of 2000

New poster here...class of 09, had to chime in here.

What happens when DWade wins 4 straight NBA titles with LBJ?  I think that has to vault him ahead of Al, even though Al was more successful while at MU.

Without Al, we're Saint Boneventure.

Without Al, there is no 1977

Without Al, DWade goes to DePaul

Quote from: Ners on September 01, 2010, 09:10:31 AM
Tough question - but just curious to see how we see this debate.  Share your year of MU attendance/graduation or year you became a fan..along with your answer..

I voted D-Wade.  1997 Alum.

Without McGuire, MU isn't a power.  Thus, Wade doesn't even have MU on his radar in the 2000's. 

Quote from: TheRock on September 01, 2010, 01:14:41 PM
New poster here...class of 09, had to chime in here.

What happens when DWade wins 4 straight NBA titles with LBJ?  I think that has to vault him ahead of Al, even though Al was more successful while at MU.

Like other posters have said without Al we are Loyola of Chicago or Drake or Bradley.  Al made Mu a household name in basketball circles.  Without Al chances are Dwade has never heard of MU.   Without Al Mu is not invited to the GMC conference. Without Al Mu is not in the C-USa when Dwade was in H.S.  Without Al Mu is not in the BE.   

Quote from: TheRock on September 01, 2010, 01:14:41 PM
New poster here...class of 09, had to chime in here.

What happens when DWade wins 4 straight NBA titles with LBJ?  I think that has to vault him ahead of Al, even though Al was more successful while at MU.

See, the difference here is, no disrespect to Marquette, but Dwayne Wade is becoming more about the Miami Heat.  AL is and will always be connected to Marquette the minute you say his name.  Wade, while still extremely important to this program and this university, has become larger than life in the NBA, not while at Marquette.  So the association is not as direct to those not affiliated with the university.

Quote from: Ners on September 01, 2010, 09:10:31 AM
Tough question - but just curious to see how we see this debate.  Share your year of MU attendance/graduation or year you became a fan..along with your answer..

I voted D-Wade.  1997 Alum.

You must have little knowledge of MU history. It is almost a joke to even ask that question.

Bring it up again when Wade has a building named after him on campus.

One is a player and one is a coach.   Unfair question.  Both are significant in there own way.

I am 39 and from MN.   I had heard of Al and Marquette as a kid, but I didn't remember any of his players, probably because they didn't make an impact in the NBA as has Wade.

Al may have set the stage for MU to be where it is, but Wade kept MU on that stage.  Without the success of the recent years, Al's legacy, outside of the MU faithful, would have faded substantially.

Quote from: 79Warrior on September 01, 2010, 02:05:33 PM
You must have little knowledge of MU history. It is almost a joke to even ask that question.

Bring it up again when Wade has a building named after him on campus.

Glad you said it, many were thinking it.

Easy answer.  DWade was here all of two years.  A very good two years, but two years nonetheless.  He led MU to one Final Four.  Al was here from 1964-1977, leading the Warriors to national prominence, four Elite Eights, Two Final Fours and one National Championship.  As previously mentioned, DWade doesn't come to MU without Al here first.  

The OP probably meant TC or Al since DWade came to MU under the Tanned One.

BTW....Class of '84.

Quote from: TomW1365 on September 01, 2010, 01:10:35 PM
I think you need an influential and successful Athlete/Coach in every generation to keep programs relevent in the present day.  Marquette had success before Al, grew to national prominence with Al, and while respected throughout the 80's and 90's, needed a fresh face with Final 4 success for a new generation.  
When Bob Knight retired from I.U, who picks up the pieces?  Who will bring in new recruits?  (for all the people who will start this into an anti-Crean thread).  While it all starts and stops with the coach, players having NBA success is a critical part of today's recruiting.  
Would North Carolina get the top recruits every year if they didn't have Jordan walk through their halls?
So, I voted for D-Wade.  

Regards,
Rebel Rowser from the Class of 2000

"Would North Carolina get the top recruits every year if they didn't have Jordan walk through their halls?" Yes. As a matter of fact, James Worthy and Sam Perkins were there when Jordan arrived. That's why I'd always vote for a Wooden, Smith or Knight over a Kareem, MJ or Isaiah. Same holds true with Al vs Wade. It's Al, and it's not even close.

I love that I was the 77th vote for Al.

Al was a decade of sustained excellence,  second only to Wooden at UCLA at the time.    He made Marquette Basketball a featured game of the week.   DWade was a great player for two years who led us to one final four.   

To those who say MU would have been St. Bonnie, Drake, Loyola, or the like - if it weren't for Al - I get the inference.  But, in reality, the first conference we joined (which was closest to our time of association with Al) was the Midwestern Collegiate Conference.  If the luster of our brand was so great in 1986 - just 9 years since Al was here (and winning a National Championship) - why did we join such an obscure conference?

Kevin O'Neill and Tom Crean have more to do with MU evoloving toward a BCS conference than did Al McGuire.  Did D-Wade even know who Al McGuire was when looking at schools - Wade wasn't alive when MU won its National Championship.  If D-Wade doesn't come to MU, does MU make the Final Four?  If MU doesn't make the Final Four in 2003 - does MU get invited to join the Big East in 2005?  If we didn't make the Final Four in 2003 with D-Wade, does the Al McGuire Center even get built?  If MU is not in the Big East, are we attracting Top 100 kids/JUCO 1st team All-Americans?  

Ask any kid why he considers Marquette in this day and age - I promise you D-Wade's name gets mentioned.

I say all of this, not to diminish Al's legacy and importance - but to also properly shape the debate.

Quote from: Ners on September 01, 2010, 02:52:13 PM
To those who say MU would have been St. Bonnie, Drake, Loyola, or the like - if it weren't for Al - I get the inference.  But, in reality, the first conference we joined (which was closest to our time of association with Al) was the Midwestern Collegiate Conference.  If the luster of our brand was so great in 1986 - just 9 years since Al was here (and winning a National Championship) - why did we join such an obscure conference?

Kevin O'Neill and Tom Crean have more to do with MU evoloving toward a BCS conference than did Al McGuire.  If D-Wade doesn't come to MU, does MU make the Final Four?  If MU doesn't make the Final Four in 2003 - does MU get invited to join the Big East in 2005?  If MU is not in the Big East, are we attracting Top 100 kids/JUCO 1st team All-Americans?  

Ask any kid why he considers Marquette in this day and age - I promise you D-Wade's name gets mentioned.

I say all of this, not to diminish Al's legacy and importance - but to also properly shape the debate.

The fall from grace for MU had everything to do with Al retiring.  We went from Top 10 to Top 20 in about 2 years.  Recruiting (outside of Doc) was abysmal.  Hank is a great man, but not even close to the recruiter / showman Al was.  The message should be, it only took 9 years for MU to become irrelevant after Al retired.

Quote from: Ners on September 01, 2010, 02:52:13 PM
To those who say MU would have been St. Bonnie, Drake, Loyola, or the like - if it weren't for Al - I get the inference.  But, in reality, the first conference we joined (which was closest to our time of association with Al) was the Midwestern Collegiate Conference.  If the luster of our brand was so great in 1986 - just 9 years since Al was here (and winning a National Championship) - why did we join such an obscure conference?

Kevin O'Neill and Tom Crean have more to do with MU evoloving toward a BCS conference than did Al McGuire.  Did D-Wade even know who Al McGuire was when looking at schools - Wade wasn't alive when MU won its National Championship.  If D-Wade doesn't come to MU, does MU make the Final Four?  If MU doesn't make the Final Four in 2003 - does MU get invited to join the Big East in 2005?  If we didn't make the Final Four in 2003 with D-Wade, does the Al McGuire Center even get built?  If MU is not in the Big East, are we attracting Top 100 kids/JUCO 1st team All-Americans?  

Ask any kid why he considers Marquette in this day and age - I promise you D-Wade's name gets mentioned.

I say all of this, not to diminish Al's legacy and importance - but to also properly shape the debate.

Here is another BIG if for you, If Al never came to Marquette,  none of your "ifs" would exist.

Quote from: Ners on September 01, 2010, 02:52:13 PM
To those who say MU would have been St. Bonnie, Drake, Loyola, or the like - if it weren't for Al - I get the inference.  But, in reality, the first conference we joined (which was closest to our time of association with Al) was the Midwestern Collegiate Conference.  If the luster of our brand was so great in 1986 - just 9 years since Al was here (and winning a National Championship) - why did we join such an obscure conference?

Kevin O'Neill and Tom Crean have more to do with MU evoloving toward a BCS conference than did Al McGuire.  Did D-Wade even know who Al McGuire was when looking at schools - Wade wasn't alive when MU won its National Championship.  If D-Wade doesn't come to MU, does MU make the Final Four?  If MU doesn't make the Final Four in 2003 - does MU get invited to join the Big East in 2005?  If we didn't make the Final Four in 2003 with D-Wade, does the Al McGuire Center even get built?  If MU is not in the Big East, are we attracting Top 100 kids/JUCO 1st team All-Americans?  

Ask any kid why he considers Marquette in this day and age - I promise you D-Wade's name gets mentioned.

I say all of this, not to diminish Al's legacy and importance - but to also properly shape the debate.

Ners, I agree with you more often than not but you're way off on this one. When Al McGuire came to Marquette our stock was lower than even the Dukiet years (4-24 the year before he came). The last decade of his tenure MU was the #2 program in the country behind only UCLA. I doubt that anyone who didn't experience it can fully appreciate it, but imagine having a 10 year run with Kansas, N Carolina, Duke, Indiana, etc. trying (but failing ) to match your success. No single player can have that kind of legacy - ever.

Quote from: TJ on September 01, 2010, 09:25:34 AM
Not even close.  There is no Wade without Al.

Agreed

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on September 01, 2010, 01:45:21 PM
Without McGuire, MU isn't a power.  Thus, Wade doesn't even have MU on his radar in the 2000's.  

IMO...I can't imagine DWade even knew who Al McGuire was prior to MU recruiting him. I'm sure that point was brought up when we were trying to get him...but still to say Wade had MU on his radar because of McGuire might be a stretch...That did get me thinking tho...what was MU's recruiting pitch in the late 90's/early 2000s? For the years when guys were born after Al was "givin' em hell" but before DWade put us back into the national spotlight?

I graduated in 2008 and when I tell people of my "generation" (if you will) where I went to school, if they aren't MU grads or Wisco natives, the FIRST thing they say is "Oh, where D-Wade went..." or something of that nature. But when I hear my dad (MU grad) as well as his friends (some who went to MU and some who didnt) talk about MU, etc...its basically ALWAYS Al McGuire talk, etc.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on September 01, 2010, 03:47:16 PM
Ners, I agree with you more often than not but you're way off on this one. When Al McGuire came to Marquette our stock was lower than even the Dukiet years (4-24 the year before he came). The last decade of his tenure MU was the #2 program in the country behind only UCLA. I doubt that anyone who didn't experience it can fully appreciate it, but imagine having a 10 year run with Kansas, N Carolina, Duke, Indiana, etc. trying (but failing ) to match your success. No single player can have that kind of legacy - ever.

I knew Al came into a bad program at MU - didn't realize it was to the depths you describe.  I do know Al was a larger than life character, and a one of a kind personality, coach, etc.  A legend indeed.  I believe D-Wade is also that type of icon - though maybe not as colorful/charismatic as Al - he is a once in a generation/program type of player.  No doubt Al got great results in his 10 years at MU..and left the program at an all-time high. 

This particular poll question certainly is not meant to minimze the value of Al to Marquette..and though it was a tough call for me to make D-Wade my choice..I guess I'm speaking probably more in terms of present day value..as to the two individual's legacies.  I am surprised that poll has skewed as much in favor of Al as it has - I thought it might go 70-30 in favor of Al..but clearly I am in the minority 15% on this one.

Marquette and Loyola were very similar ---both Jesuit institutions, well respected, national title winnners, Loyola in 1963 and MU in 1977. Loyola's fortunes have headed south while MU's have risen, despite many geographical and other advantages enjoyed by Loyola. Why?  I think the prime reason for that is all the good will created by Al McGuire in the '60's and 70's as a coach and later when he became the wit and wisdom of televised college basketball. That good will remains today and will for some time to come, greatly benefitting MU. Al developed the hoops lexicon--aircraft carrier, white knuckler, hail mary, cream puff, taps city etc etc. He lobbied for changes in the NCAA later adopted (no 3rd place games for instance). He took on Adolph Rupp and by recent historical standards, whipped him from the standpoint of impact on the game. He started lobbying for MU to become a member of the BIG EAST from the time the conference was formed. He is one of the most respected, revered and beloved figures in college basketball history--perhaps second only to John Wooden. He has had several books written about him and a play developed detailing the character who was Al, by Dick Enberg nonetheless. I love DWade and this is not meant as any deprication of his significant contributions to MU and basketball in general. However, Al's influence on MU and the game of college basketball was far more profound.

Quote from: APieperFan3 on September 01, 2010, 04:20:22 PM
but still to say Wade had MU on his radar because of McGuire might be a stretch...

That's the point.  Because of Al McGuire, MU became a quality program.  Because MU was a quality program, Wade considered and went to MU.  No stretch about it.  Don't they teach logic courses at MU anymore?

Plain and simple, Al McGuire IS Marquette basketball.

Al McGuire Court. "AL" on the front of every jersey. The Al McGuire Center. Hell, even Al's Run. He is sewn into the fabric of both the university and the city.

Dwyane Wade was a great player at Marquette, maybe our greatest ever, and he gave us a great two years. But that's it. Two years. He was very good, he was an All-American, and he's gone on to great NBA success, but nothing he does in Miami will amplify his legacy as a Marquette alum player...

...and I went to school with D-Wade. Class of 2004.

I won't even give this thread legitimacy with an answer.

No Al, then no Wade, and not many of us on this board.

We "stand on the shoulders of giants."

That's Wade on AL's shoulders.

In a few decades, hopefully it will be ___(insert successful college/NBA player/coach)____ on Wade's shoulders.

But really it's:

Wade standing on the shoulders of
Doc Rivers standing on the shoulders of
Bo Ellis/Butch Lee and the 1977 NCAA Championship team standing on the shoulders of
Maurice Lucas standing on the shoulders of
Jim Chones standing on the shoulders of
George Thompson/Dean Meminger standing on the shoulders of
Don Kojis standing on the shoulders of
AL

Our country has founding fathers. Without men like Washington and Jefferson there is no United States to be healed, expanded, etc.

When Lincoln's name is thrown into the argument for the greatest president of all time, his resume, while strong, can't match Jefferson.

Would the nation exist as we know it today without Lincoln or Roosevelt? Likely not. But without the founding fathers, there's nothing to champion.

Al all the way, despite lots of love for D Wade and what he did and continues to do to strengthen the foundation set by Al and the 1968-1977 set.

Class of 93

Are you kidding me?

D-Wade was great, but his greatness was one game, the Kentucky game in 2003 when he put MU on his back and got us back to the Final Four.

Al was great for 13 years and put us on his back and got us consistently to the Top 10, to the Final Four twice and help raise millions for Marquette.

We're a national university because of Al. With apologies to the academic and administrative staffs, we'd be Carroll College without Al. Al's basketball teams raised millions for us and the signs of his greatness are everywhere -- those buildings built from 1960 to 1980, and beyond, were built with McGuire money. The endowment, the diverse student body from throughout the United States and yes, the basketball program; none would be possible without Al McGuire.

With no Al, I probably would have been a Badger.

Quote from: dgies9156 on September 02, 2010, 06:08:05 AM
Are you kidding me?

D-Wade was great, but his greatness was one game, the Kentucky game in 2003 when he put MU on his back and got us back to the Final Four.

Al was great for 13 years and put us on his back and got us consistently to the Top 10, to the Final Four twice and help raise millions for Marquette.

We're a national university because of Al. With apologies to the academic and administrative staffs, we'd be Carroll College without Al. Al's basketball teams raised millions for us and the signs of his greatness are everywhere -- those buildings built from 1960 to 1980, and beyond, were built with McGuire money. The endowment, the diverse student body from throughout the United States and yes, the basketball program; none would be possible without Al McGuire.

Legacy..as far overall contribution to the Marquette community..equals Al..sure...I guess though in terms of present day legacy...I believe Wade's name carries more value to the University/basketball program, than does Al's.
This thread has been informative and enlightening to me, however, to see how revered Al McGuire is/was within the MU community - particularily those who were at or around MU during his 13 years.

Legacy..as far overall contribution to the Marquette community..equals Al..sure...I guess though in terms of present day legacy...I believe Wade's name carries more value to the University/basketball program, than does Al's.

HORSE CRAP!

Without the McGuire Money raised in the 1960s and 1970s from a broadening base of alumni and supporters, Marquette would be a fraction of the university it is today. Where do you think the money for the structural improvements on campus, the street closings, the Campus Circle project, the purchase of residence halls at the eastern and western ends of campus,  money for endowed professorial chairs, etc. came from?

The McGuire Money -- in the form of contributions to the Annual Marquette Fund, the Campaign for Marquette, the endowment funds and schorlarships -- made Marquette as we know it possible. There is no way Marquette could have generated that kind of capital without the national profile Al created through the basketball program.

If that wasn't enough, being a Marquette grad in the 1970s, basketball opened doors. People knew Marquette through the basketball program and used that standard of excellence to take a calculated chance on Marquette graduates.

D-Wade was a wonderful flash in the pan. I'm sure D-Wade has made a difference to the university and he's a great representative of who we are (divorce case not withstanding), but there's no way Wade is even close to the contribution Al made to our community.   

Quote from: dgies9156 on September 02, 2010, 10:33:44 AM
Legacy..as far overall contribution to the Marquette community..equals Al..sure...I guess though in terms of present day legacy...I believe Wade's name carries more value to the University/basketball program, than does Al's.

HORSE CRAP!

Without the McGuire Money raised in the 1960s and 1970s from a broadening base of alumni and supporters, Marquette would be a fraction of the university it is today. Where do you think the money for the structural improvements on campus, the street closings, the Campus Circle project, the purchase of residence halls at the eastern and western ends of campus,  money for endowed professorial chairs, etc. came from?

The McGuire Money -- in the form of contributions to the Annual Marquette Fund, the Campaign for Marquette, the endowment funds and schorlarships -- made Marquette as we know it possible. There is no way Marquette could have generated that kind of capital without the national profile Al created through the basketball program.

If that wasn't enough, being a Marquette grad in the 1970s, basketball opened doors. People knew Marquette through the basketball program and used that standard of excellence to take a calculated chance on Marquette graduates.

D-Wade was a wonderful flash in the pan. I'm sure D-Wade has made a difference to the university and he's a great representative of who we are (divorce case not withstanding), but there's no way Wade is even close to the contribution Al made to our community.   

I'm not arguing Al's contributions to the university and impact on the university in the 1970s, 1980s, or even 1990s..what I am saying is that D-Wade's name and association with Marquette, present day..has more value..at least from a basketball program perspective.  D-Wade being at Marquette and the program going to the Final Four was a similar catalyst for university pride and large donations coming in.  Pretty much got the Al McGuire center built off of that Final Four.  Marquette has undergond a renaissance in the last decade as well..and I don't think we should undersetimate the role the Final Four appearance played in that Renaissance.

The question is whose legacy is most significant to MU? : Al or Dwyane Wade.

It is not: whose legacy is more important to current recruits and students who have only known Marquette as Golden Eagles.

Given how the question is framed the answer has to be Al.  It all started with him.

Love DWade and what he did @ MU, but it's got to be Al first and forever - he
MADE this program.
Med72