MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: mu_hilltopper on February 27, 2007, 01:54:36 PM
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I found this interesting .. a global survey on religion .. it caught my eye for the rapidly increasing numbers of atheists/agnostics in the US .. but what did surprise me was the numbers out of Europe. I really had no idea.
Believer in any form of God or any type of supreme being:
UK: 35%
France: 27%
Spain: 48%
Germany:41%
Italy: 62%
US: 73%
The remainder are atheists/agnostics or "not sure". I just had no idea that, for example, France and the UK were dominated by the atheist/agnostics. Learn something new every day.
Lots of other stats/questions from the poll:
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/news/allnewsbydate.asp?NewsID=1131
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I found this interesting .. a global survey on religion .. it caught my eye for the rapidly increasing numbers of atheists/agnostics in the US .. but what did surprise me was the numbers out of Europe. I really had no idea.
Believer in any form of God or any type of supreme being:
UK: 35%
France: 27%
Spain: 48%
Germany:41%
Italy: 62%
US: 73%
The remainder are atheists/agnostics or "not sure". I just had no idea that, for example, France and the UK were dominated by the atheist/agnostics. Learn something new every day.
Lots of other stats/questions from the poll:
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/news/allnewsbydate.asp?NewsID=1131
This doesn't suprise me at all actually... except spain.
Spain used to be the second most catholic place in the world... now just 48%? Wow.
Also, its spelled "religion". ;D
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This is a good 3 year old thread!
.. Funny, I barely remember this .. but the numbers still astound me. 65% of the UK is atheist/agnostic. Amazing.
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This is a good 3 year old thread!
.. Funny, I barely remember this .. but the numbers still astound me. 65% of the UK is atheist/agnostic. Amazing.
92% here according to this latest poll
http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/Americans-Continue-Believe-God.aspx
(http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/Americans-Continue-Believe-God.aspx)
PRINCETON, NJ -- More than 9 in 10 Americans still say "yes" when asked the basic question "Do you believe in God?"; this is down only slightly from the 1940s, when Gallup first asked this question.
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This doesn't suprise me at all actually... except spain.
Spain used to be the second most catholic place in the world... now just 48%? Wow.
Also, its spelled "religion". ;D
I lived in Spain while they transitioned from Franco dictatorship to constitutional democracy. Free to speak, most Spainards had come to view the church as allied/attached to the old guard fascist govt.
Now, 30 plus years later, Spain is reinvented--divorce laws are the quickest in Europe, etc.....and the church is sort of a vestige of bygone, ill viewed times...rightly or wrongly.
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PRINCETON, NJ -- More than 9 in 10 Americans still say "yes" when asked the basic question "Do you believe in God?"; this is down only slightly from the 1940s, when Gallup first asked this question.
I wonder how many of the 92% are regular church goers. Believe me, I don't believe that you have to go to church to be Christian, because I believe in God, but I am not so sure I believe in Church any longer. (I'm not Catholic BTW)
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I wonder how many of the 92% are regular church goers. Believe me, I don't believe that you have to go to church to be Christian, because I believe in God, but I am not so sure I believe in Church any longer. (I'm not Catholic BTW)
Agree, Sultan, but my guess is you're a first generation non church going believer. Once the US gets into third and fourth generations of non church goers (see Europe) I suspect you'll see a large dropoff in "believers".
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Considering some of the laws we have now, no prayers in schools, not allowed to say a prayer at a graduation ceremony, some people pushing to take God off of money and removed from the national anthem. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone.
http://www.youtube.com/v/CMErHrinwFU&playnext=1&list=PL5A6DCAE576306BDA
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92% here according to this latest poll
http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/Americans-Continue-Believe-God.aspx
(http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/Americans-Continue-Believe-God.aspx)
PRINCETON, NJ -- More than 9 in 10 Americans still say "yes" when asked the basic question "Do you believe in God?"; this is down only slightly from the 1940s, when Gallup first asked this question.
I'm stunned that it's still over 90% here. I expected it to be higher in the US than anywhere else, our country more than any other western nation is founded on religion, but figured it'd be closer to 70%. Maybe it's just being agnostic myself, but I don't get how it remains that high, even in the most Christian nation on earth.
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Considering some of the laws we have now, no prayers in schools, not allowed to say a prayer at a graduation ceremony, some people pushing to take God off of money and removed from the national anthem. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone.
Just goin' where society is leading! 3-4 more generations, and the churches will close up shop.
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Just goin' where society is leading! 3-4 more generations, and the churches will close up shop.
Yup, and society sure is "going" places. I keep hearing how we are progressing, and we certainly are in many areas (race relations, etc), but we have also taken some serious u-turns in a many areas as well. Just talk to your grandparents about civility today, crime today, treatment of humanity today, vs what it was decades ago. I'd love to overlay data with emergence of secularism over those societal changes.
Can't say we weren't warned this was going to happen, because we certainly have been going back thousands of years. And yes, I agree with you, society is taking us there except for a few brave souls that attempt to slow it down....they're being publicly massacred for the attempt and marginalized for their efforts. It's too bad, in my opinion, there are a lot of negatives about church (any religion) which are drum beated to death daily by the media, and anti-religious folks. There is also a world of good that has impacted so many lives for the better, seems that story is rarely told these days.
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Yup, and society sure is "going" places. I keep hearing how we are progressing, and we certainly are in many areas (race relations, etc), but we have also taken some serious u-turns in a many areas as well. Just talk to your grandparents about civility today, crime today, treatment of humanity today, vs what it was decades ago. I'd love to overlay data with emergence of secularism over those societal changes.
Can't say we weren't warned this was going to happen, because we certainly have been going back thousands of years. And yes, I agree with you, society is taking us there except for a few brave souls that attempt to slow it down....they're being publicly massacred for the attempt and marginalized for their efforts. It's too bad, in my opinion, there are a lot of negatives about churn (any religion) which are drum beated to death daily by the media, and anti-religious folks. There is also a world of good that has impacted so many lives for the better, seems that story is rarely told these days.
And stay off my lawn
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Yup, and society sure is "going" places. I keep hearing how we are progressing, and we certainly are in many areas (race relations, etc), but we have also taken some serious u-turns in a many areas as well. Just talk to your grandparents about civility today, crime today, treatment of humanity today, vs what it was decades ago. I'd love to overlay data with emergence of secularism over those societal changes.
Can't say we weren't warned this was going to happen, because we certainly have been going back thousands of years. And yes, I agree with you, society is taking us there except for a few brave souls that attempt to slow it down....they're being publicly massacred for the attempt and marginalized for their efforts. It's too bad, in my opinion, there are a lot of negatives about churn (any religion) which are drum beated to death daily by the media, and anti-religious folks. There is also a world of good that has impacted so many lives for the better, seems that story is rarely told these days.
Who doesn't love a good public massacre now and again?
My grandparents, who are no longer with us, lived through a civil war (Irish, not American), Great Depression, two world wars, the Jim Crow era, the Holocaust and communism (the latter two as distant and mostly unaffected observers only, thank goodness).
I'm sure they could tell us all about civility and the treatment of humanity decades ago.
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I have to agree with Pakuni here. Violent crime is actually at record lows in cities such as New York. Chicago's murder rate is down from 20 years ago.
If you don't see real progress from the genocides of the 20th century, women who weren't able to vote, blacks who couldn't get a cup of coffee next to a white man, well, I guess I don't know what to tell you.
EDIT: I'm not saying these things are tied to religion one way or the other. I just think the correlation that Chicos is trying to make doesn't really hold water.
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When my grandparents were growing up, there were no homosexuals.
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When my grandparents were growing up, there were no homosexuals.
+1
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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When my grandparents were growing up, a woman's place was in the home.
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http://www.youtube.com/v/zgvTIyATCOU?version=3&hl=en_US&rel=0
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When my grandparents were growing up, there were no homosexuals.
Except in the rectory.
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http://youtu.be/y1_NhnXMCKw
http://youtu.be/y1_NhnXMCKw
"And we LIKED IT!"
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Who doesn't love a good public massacre now and again?
My grandparents, who are no longer with us, lived through a civil war (Irish, not American), Great Depression, two world wars, the Jim Crow era, the Holocaust and communism (the latter two as distant and mostly unaffected observers only, thank goodness).
I'm sure they could tell us all about civility and the treatment of humanity decades ago.
What Chicos fails to reconcile is western Europe has bascially gone through the longest peaceful time pretty much ever...in correlation with the decline in church attendance.
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Considering some of the laws we have now, no prayers in schools, not allowed to say a prayer at a graduation ceremony, some people pushing to take God off of money and removed from the national anthem. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone.
Chicos, this is exactly what the problem is in my opinion. Prayer in public school, in a graduation ceremony, "In God we Trust" on money, etc. are all more hot-button political issues than they are substantive religious issues. Honestly, what good does "In God we Trust" really do? The phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Alligiance? (God isn't in the National Anthem by the way.)
The most "religious" experiences I have had have not really been in Church...which I find rather stale and dull. (Yeah, I need to find a new one.) Clearly, I am not the only one who feels similarly.
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Right. I highly doubt superficial things like "In God We Trust" or "Merry Christmas" is really a sign of religiosity, or more importantly, the moral character of its citizens.
Rather, these things are being used as political wedges to try to rally a base by today's "culture warriors."
Anyway, its always tempting to look and the past and see better days. The human brain is wired to wax nostalgic. But I don't see that reality here.
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Just talk to your grandparents about civility today, crime today, treatment of humanity today, vs what it was decades ago.
Glad other people brought it up because I think this is complete hogwash. My grandparents (African American) wouldn't have been able to attend MU, were often scared for their lives just traveling back and forth to work, and knew many people that were assulted or killed while the crimes went unreported.
This was all in an extremely religious area of Louisiana. Not quite sure where this kind, crimeless utopia was but it certainly wasn't in the south or large urban areas in America.
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Except in the rectory.
That never happened when my grandparents were growing up.
It only started with the "progress" of today's society.
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Who doesn't love a good public massacre now and again?
My grandparents, who are no longer with us, lived through a civil war (Irish, not American), Great Depression, two world wars, the Jim Crow era, the Holocaust and communism (the latter two as distant and mostly unaffected observers only, thank goodness).
I'm sure they could tell us all about civility and the treatment of humanity decades ago.
True, of course wars are gone today, tough economic times all in the past, etc, etc.
I'm talking about in general how people treated each other, you're focusing on the macro events. I'd invite you to have breakfast or lunch with some Vets each Memorial Day as my wife and I do. Just listen to their stories, listen to how times have changed and how frustrated some of them are about what they did to fight for this country and how SOME things turned out (not all, some).
The days when you could leave your front door unlocked. The days when the kids could go out to play and come back at 9:00pm and you wouldn't even think twice about them being down the street or 3 blocks away. The days when they could walk to school by themselves and not worry about being abducted. The days where the worst trouble they could get into was sipping a 3/2 beer.....drugs almost unheard of. The days when divorce was rare, the family unit existed, etc
Yes, we have progressed nicely....but I tip my hat to you on the Jim Crow law reference. That's 100% guaranteed to be thrown in (or something of similar stature) whenever someone says there were ASPECTS of life that were better in many ways decades ago...instantly the race card is played. Like clockwork, as if to shoot down everything else the race card trumps all. Sorry, not playing that game.
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When my grandparents were growing up, there were no homosexuals.
Sure there were, always has been always will be. Nothing wrong with that.
Now, when your grandparents were growing up, however, there was less crime, almost no drug use, divorce was rare, out of wedlock kids even rarer, kids weren't "hooking" up at 14, etc, etc.
Some steps forward, some steps back. I'd argue the roll of church and religion were more firmly entrenched back in the day and the lack of it today has led to many of the steps back.
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Sure there were, always has been always will be. Nothing wrong with that.
Now, when your grandparents were growing up, however, there was less crime, almost no drug use, divorce was rare, out of wedlock kids even rarer, kids weren't "hooking" up at 14, etc, etc.
Some steps forward, some steps back. I'd argue the roll of church and religion were more firmly entrenched back in the day and the lack of it today has led to many of the steps back.
Oh come on.
Do we know kids weren't "hooking up"? Where's that study? How can we possibly know that? I know that sexuality is a little more outspoken now, but that doesn't mean it wasn't happening back then. Just like being gay isn't something that just started last year.
I agree with you that certain things were better "back in the day", but let's not use hyperbole and Norman Rockwell paintings as history books.
Also, yes, the race card does trump everything. I mean, Jesus Christ, we are only 1 generation (approx) removed from "separate but equal". That's f-ing insane. We treated some of our own citizens as second class people. It was a law. That's criminal.
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True, of course wars are gone today, tough economic times all in the past, etc, etc.
I'm talking about in general how people treated each other, you're focusing on the macro events. I'd invite you to have breakfast or lunch with some Vets each Memorial Day as my wife and I do. Just listen to their stories, listen to how times have changed and how frustrated some of them are about what they did to fight for this country and how SOME things turned out (not all, some).
The days when you could leave your front door unlocked. The days when the kids could go out to play and come back at 9:00pm and you wouldn't even think twice about them being down the street or 3 blocks away. The days when they could walk to school by themselves and not worry about being abducted. The days where the worst trouble they could get into was sipping a 3/2 beer.....drugs almost unheard of. The days when divorce was rare, the family unit existed, etc
Yes, we have progressed nicely....but I tip my hat to you on the Jim Crow law reference. That's 100% guaranteed to be thrown in (or something of similar stature) whenever someone says there were ASPECTS of life that were better in many ways decades ago...instantly the race card is played. Like clockwork, as if to shoot down everything else the race card trumps all. Sorry, not playing that game.
"Leave it to Chicos"
The world when everything was hunky-dory and racial issues were marginalized.
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Sure there were, always has been always will be. Nothing wrong with that.
Now, when your grandparents were growing up, however, there was less crime, almost no drug use, divorce was rare, out of wedlock kids even rarer, kids weren't "hooking" up at 14, etc, etc.
Some steps forward, some steps back. I'd argue the roll of church and religion were more firmly entrenched back in the day and the lack of it today has led to many of the steps back.
my grandparents grew up in the 30s and 40s. There was the great depression. Also, how often were people just let off the hook back then? "Boys will be boys" doesn't exist anymore. Drug use was low because it was LEGAL. Divorce rate was rare because women were DEPENDENT on men for money and safety. Children out of wedlock happened, but it wasn't televised for obvious reasons.
I mean keep the blinders on Chicos if you think the past was peachy keen neato!
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(http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs19/f/2007/241/4/a/In_before_the_lock_by_dantiscus.gif)
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I actually don't see why this should be locked. Its not overtly political. We are being civil. I think Chico's is dead wrong here but no one is using personal attacks. Its good discussion.
The early 20th century was littered with gambling, prostitution, kidnappings, murder by organized crime.Walk around Chicago, you can see the brothels still standing. They have all been converted to legitimate restaurants or bars, but a lot of the artwork of girls remains. Its actually pretty interesting.
The Great Depression was brought on by stock speculation of people with questionable character. Most selfishly trying to make the quickest buck they could.
The treatment of women was condescending and chauvinist. Women who were harassed in the workplace had no recourse. They just had to shut up and deal with, it or lose their job. There were no divorces because women couldn't support themselves on their own, and often had 4+ kids to deal with.
Wealthy families had to install iron bars on the windows of their sons, in fear their children would be kidnapped. Look at the Lindbergh baby. The doors unlocked thing is a myth. Burglaries and kidnappings were just as common back then. Bank robberies probably more common.
I'm not saying all of this is gone. This stuff still happens. But its absurd to say that everything was hunky dory when people went to church.
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Teenagers have been having sex as long as there has been teenagers and sex. Witness Bundling and 16 year old's marrying. Things weren't better. They were covered up, repressed, and held down. Would you rather have been a female or an african-american a century ago? Would you rather have had working conditions now considered analagous with third world countries? Is it better to cover up for pedophile priests and move them to different congregations or is it better to publicly deal with the problem? Yeah, medicare is bankrupting the country... because it has been so successful. People didn't used to live 20 years after retirement. Or survive cancer. Or their first two heart attacks. Religion has diminished because of the proliferations of denominations. Why go to church when every different one is convinced their's is the only way to salvation and they are fighting holy wars based on minutiae? Yes, the world today is a highly fractured and fractious place. Because there are so many options and so little central authority.
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When my grandparents were growing up, kids did not have premarital sex.
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Far be it out of character for me to defend Chicos here, but you guys are missing the point.
Granted, there have been murders, bank robbers, racists, etc. going back to the early days of our country. Is crime any more or less prevalent today than yesteryear? Adjusting for population and other variables, probably not of any significance.
I don't like to use the word 'tolerance' here because of the political connotations it carries, but while incivility (be that criminal activity, aggression/oppression, etc.) might be better or worse overall these days, the tolerance of such is mind-numbingly astronomical compared to a few decades ago.
But society has been preaching "tolerance" (using it here in the political sense) for quite some time now. Tolerance of people's life choices, their race/creed/religion/ethnicity, etc. are good things, but are we supposed to tolerate incivility too? The P.C. crowd doesn't want people to judge for themselves what they should or should not tolerate (that would defeat the purpose), so the blanket command is to just tolerate everything.
The more you tolerate, the less you deter. Accordingly, the tolerance of incivility (back to the non-political sense) has led to its spread being disproportionate to its growth. Historically, incivility existed mostly in pockets... e.g. the Nazis were mostly in Germany, the segregationists were mostly in the south, the murderers were mostly in the bad neighborhoods, the casinos were mostly in Las Vegas, and corrupt politicians were mostly in Illinois. Now, it's everywhere. It may not have increased, but there are fewer places to feel "safe."
Most religions' preach a message that also acts a deterrent to incivility (granted, some blaspheme by acting uncivil in the name of their religion, and there are always a few people who miss the point of the message -- see the inevitable responses to this post as an example -- that doesn't necessarily mean that religion or its message is bad). Anyhoo, I don't want to speak for Chicos, but his question about whether the decline in religion has also led to the tolerance and spread of incivility is certainly valid given the above context.
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To which I say, the decline of religion was inevitable (A) after the protestant reformation, (B) as the enlightenment and science expanded, (C) when people began to have more choices including the choice to publicly not believe.
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I'm talking about in general how people treated each other, you're focusing on the macro events. I'd invite you to have breakfast or lunch with some Vets each Memorial Day as my wife and I do. Just listen to their stories, listen to how times have changed and how frustrated some of them are about what they did to fight for this country and how SOME things turned out (not all, some).
Old people romanticize the past while railing against a present that's passed them by. Middle aged folks worry about what's wrong with the kids. Young people wonder what the fuss is all about. Nothing new in any of that. Meanwhile, people and knowedge keep evolving. Less ignorance = less fear = less bigotry = more tolerance. It happens slowly and there are retracements along the way (the intolerance today in academia for conservatism, for example), but as the world turns it's definitely getting better.
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To which I say, the decline of religion was inevitable (A) after the protestant reformation, (B) as the enlightenment and science expanded, (C) when people began to have more choices including the choice to publicly not believe.
To which I respond that considering nearly 100% of the world believed in some sort of higher being at one point in time, the inevitability of the decline of religion was, itself, inevitable.
Kidding aside, With 'A' -- I have a tough time reconciling that with the fact that Islam (another "reformed" religion of sorts) is rapidly growing even today. I certainly agree with 'B', but as far as 'C' - in sticking with my theme here - I would advocate that it's not necessarily that more choices are available, simply that the choices - including the choice of none - are tolerated. So did the tolerance of choice lead to decline in religion or is it perhaps the opposite? Perhaps it's just one big downward spiral - unless you're Satanic, which if you are, you're likely a NIN fan and as such, a downward spiral would be a good thing on two levels. Far out.
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Why is religion treated any differently than politics as a lockable/bannable category for mods intervention?
Here, mods began and opened the thread for discussion....IMO, either:
i) reopen political discussions and lift the politics banning/locking, and continue the religion discussions like this here (some interesting points are made) or
ii)treat a religion discussion the same as politics, with bans and locks to follow.
Each of politics, and religion draw deeply on our personal beliefs, views, and matters for debate....lets let it all in or all out...but be consistent, either way.
I am appreciative of anyone's preferences to the contrary... I'd just like to know what risks locks. or banning...ahead of its occurence.
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Why is religion treated any differently than politics as a lockable/bannable category for mods intervention?
Here, mods began and opened the thread for discussion....IMO, either:
i) reopen political discussions and lift the politics banning/locking, and continue the religion discussions like this here (some interesting points are made) or
ii)treat a religion discussion the same as politics, with bans and locks to follow.
Each of politics, and religion draw deeply on our personal beliefs, views, and matters for debate....lets let it all in or all out...but be consistent, either way.
I am appreciative of anyone's preferences to the contrary... I'd just like to know what risks locks. or banning...ahead of its occurence.
It's not personal beliefs. It's idiocy that so many Americans think that a Sky Wizard is responsible for everything, so much so that it's integral to our country's politics. Friggin scary, imo.
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Why is religion treated any differently than politics as a lockable/bannable category for mods intervention?
I have two ideas....either ignore the thread, or start your own message board.
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I have two ideas....either ignore the thread, or start your own message board.
I am very sorry if I offended you. I noted some interesting things were said in this thread....but if you see only these two choices(note- I outlined another--opening both religion and re-opening politics, as fair game), ...I'll ignore thread and shut up further about the inconsistency I noted...no one could start a board better than this one. lol ...and I reiterate my apology...
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You didn't offend me.
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Alright...my thoughts
1) houwarrior - feel free to start a better board. Honestly, it's somewhat gratifying, but also a pain in the rear some days
2) Yes, it was started by a mod in Feb 2007, before we had a ban on these sorts of things. Not sure why it got bumped this week by Hards...
3) I've personally let it go this far, because people mostly have stayed respectful and were having a good discussion. Please try to keep it that way. Other mods may feel differently though.
Anyhow, carry on, for now...
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I dunno how I even read it. It was at the top of the list... Since I'm too lazy to sift through old theads. I was really confused when someone said it was a couole years old. Possoibly a board glitch? It was on top for me.
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It's not personal beliefs. It's idiocy that so many Americans think that a Sky Wizard is responsible for everything, so much so that it's integral to our country's politics. Friggin scary, imo.
Sky wizard...that actually made me chuckle. . I believe in God, but don't necessarily think "it" is out there making me team wins, keeping the airplane in the sky or whatever. Some folks do, and that's fine by me. If it brings some order to things, some discipline, some respect for humanity, then I don't see the harm. I'm more agnostic than anything...I think a God exists and too many things too perfectly happened, IMO, to get where we are today. That being said, could be absolutely nothing and when we die, it goes dark and that's it.
At the end of the day, a lot of us here could be fools and a lot of us here could be wishing they believed. We'll all find out at some point.
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There are days I believe...days I have my doubts... Days I go to church and come away feeling great...days I can't wait to get the hell out of there...
I don't think I'm unique.
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Sky wizard...that actually made me chuckle. . I believe in God, but don't necessarily think "it" is out there making me team wins, keeping the airplane in the sky or whatever. Some folks do, and that's fine by me. If it brings some order to things, some discipline, some respect for humanity, then I don't see the harm. I'm more agnostic than anything...I think a God exists and too many things too perfectly happened, IMO, to get where we are today. That being said, could be absolutely nothing and when we die, it goes dark and that's it.
At the end of the day, a lot of us here could be fools and a lot of us here could be wishing they believed. We'll all find out at some point.
Well said :)
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We'll all find out at some point.
...unless we don't.
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...unless we don't.
Sure we will, unless you plan on living forever. Either we die and it all goes black and that's it, or we die and something happens. What's the 3rd option?
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Rather timely....NBC omits "Under God" in yesterday's Pledge of Allegiance vignette on their US Open broadcast.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/19/nbc-apologizes-for-omitting-under-god-from-pledge-during-us-open-broadcast/?test=latestnews
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Sure we will, unless you plan on living forever. Either we die and it all goes black and that's it, or we die and something happens. What's the 3rd option?
I think his point was that if it's option number one, we don't "find out" anything...we just die.
Not saying that's what I believe, but I'd have to agree that if it "all goes black" we won't "find out" anything.
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When my grandparents were growing up, kids did not have premarital sex.
They also got married when they were 17.
Anyone here thinks we should be virgins until our late 20s, early 30s when people get married?
Our ages have consistently going up and it's not a coincidence that divorce rates, in first marriages, are lower. Why waste the best sex years of your life? When you meet an unmarried 27 year old, would the world be a better place if he/she never got laid over one where they knocked a couple boots?
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My all-time favorite South Park quote (rant):
"Maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense, and maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up. But I have a great life and a great family, and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don't care if Joseph Smith made it all up, because what the Church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even though people in this town might think that's stupid, I still choose to believe in it. All I ever did was try to be your friend, Stan, but you're so high and mighty you couldn't look past my religion and just be my friend back. You've got a lot of growing up to do, buddy. Suck my balls."
For someone who made his fortune off of pointing out how 99% of Americans are naive, hypocrites, or just plain dumb, Trey Parker actually has a lot of poignant thoughts when it comes to religion, some of which are revealed in his art, some of which he discusses in interviews. It's worth a Google search if you have time, regardless of what you believe.
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They also got married when they were 17.
Anyone here thinks we should be virgins until our late 20s, early 30s when people get married?
Our ages have consistently going up and it's not a coincidence that divorce rates, in first marriages, are lower. Why waste the best sex years of your life? When you meet an unmarried 27 year old, would the world be a better place if he/she never got laid over one where they knocked a couple boots?
When my grandparents were growing up, they didn't use teal.
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When my grandparents were growing up, they didn't use teal.
Another way society has improved.
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I think his point was that if it's option number one, we don't "find out" anything...we just die.
Not saying that's what I believe, but I'd have to agree that if it "all goes black" we won't "find out" anything.
This. And I think its more than just a semantic point too. It speaks to how we as living people cannot conceptualize not being some form of alive. Its hard if not impossible for us to conceptualize nothingness. There are some interesting theories relating this to advent of beliefs in the afterlife, etc. I hate it when holier than thou atheists (pun intended) say that people believe in the afterlife because "they want to." When you look at it from the perspective that people are arguably incapable of understanding there not being an afterlife, it could be argued we are predisposed to believing in something. Then its up to individuals to decide whether or not they think thats the seed of some higher power or not.
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I think his point was that if it's option number one, we don't "find out" anything...we just die.
Not saying that's what I believe, but I'd have to agree that if it "all goes black" we won't "find out" anything.
Yes. That was my point.
I can't say I necessarily have a "belief" for when that day comes. However, I do believe I should enjoy the life I have, and treat others with respect. If it so happens that I'm cognizant in "death", then I'll try to enjoy the death I have, and treat others with respect. Unless I become a flesh eating zombie, then you all are screwed.
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I think his point was that if it's option number one, we don't "find out" anything...we just die.
Not saying that's what I believe, but I'd have to agree that if it "all goes black" we won't "find out" anything.
Unless it doesn't actually go black... it would really suck if death simply meant you lose all physical function, but your mental capacity remained as long as your brain remained intact. Imagine laying in the ground, unable to move or communicate, with only your thoughts, recollections, ideas for new inventions, second-guessing your choice of last words, etc... kind of explains why zombies are all insane.
If ever there was a case to be made for cremation or death by steamroller, that's good enough for me.
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For someone who made his fortune off of pointing out how 99% of Americans are naive, hypocrites, or just plain dumb, Trey Parker actually has a lot of poignant thoughts when it comes to religion, some of which are revealed in his art, some of which he discusses in interviews. It's worth a Google search if you have time, regardless of what you believe.
Agreed, and a lot of people would probably be surprised to read it. Cause they've misinterpreted a call to be intelligent/inquisitve and understanding for atheism from him. My favorite from one of the interviews, he basically says like it or not, there is alot that we, as humans, don't know or understand. And then says "'Basically ... out of all the ridiculous religion stories which are greatly, wonderfully ridiculous — the silliest one I've ever heard is, Yeah ... there's this big giant universe and it's expanding, it's all gonna collapse on itself and we're all just here just 'cause ... just 'cause'. That, to me, is the most ridiculous explanation ever."
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Agreed, and a lot of people would probably be surprised to read it. Cause they've misinterpreted a call to be intelligent/inquisitve and understanding for atheism from him. My favorite from one of the interviews, he basically says like it or not, there is alot that we, as humans, don't know or understand. And then says "'Basically ... out of all the ridiculous religion stories which are greatly, wonderfully ridiculous — the silliest one I've ever heard is, Yeah ... there's this big giant universe and it's expanding, it's all gonna collapse on itself and we're all just here just 'cause ... just 'cause'. That, to me, is the most ridiculous explanation ever."
I think that everyone will agree that we, as humans, don't know much.
It's too bad the rest of his quote about why we're here clearly indicates that he has no idea about science or what Theory (capitol T) means in science.
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Agreed, and a lot of people would probably be surprised to read it. Cause they've misinterpreted a call to be intelligent/inquisitve and understanding for atheism from him. My favorite from one of the interviews, he basically says like it or not, there is alot that we, as humans, don't know or understand. And then says "'Basically ... out of all the ridiculous religion stories which are greatly, wonderfully ridiculous — the silliest one I've ever heard is, Yeah ... there's this big giant universe and it's expanding, it's all gonna collapse on itself and we're all just here just 'cause ... just 'cause'. That, to me, is the most ridiculous explanation ever."
That is why atheists are silly. I think that wisdom starts with knowing what you don't know. Religious people & Atheists, look at what they don't know and fill that in with guesses.
Perhaps we die and are gone.
Perhaps we die and are gone, but there still is a greater purpose.
We could die and have our consciousness join some conglomerate of pure energy, that is beyond our ability to understand.
We could remain our own being and travel the universe, or not, like a ghost.
Many people believe in being reborn.
Perhaps it is like Slaughter House 5 and we lose a sense of time and relive our own life in any order we choose.
Or we couldget split into groups based on the if we believe in a specific religion.
Similarly, Perhaps the creation of the universe was the death or birth of a supreme being rather than that existing already.
The universe itself could be a living organism that is beyond our comprehension.
If a being of pure energy was created at the dawn of time does that mean it is worthy our worship?
My favorite idea about higher powers comes from "Small Gods". Great book.
I don't know any of this. And I don't make guesses. That is why I'm agnostic.
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It makes atheists mad when you say it, but atheism is just another religion. They're making similar leaps of faith with little actual information just like religious people are. It's pretty funny when you think about it :)
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Unless it doesn't actually go black... it would really suck if death simply meant you lose all physical function, but your mental capacity remained as long as your brain remained intact. Imagine laying in the ground, unable to move or communicate, with only your thoughts, recollections, ideas for new inventions, second-guessing your choice of last words, etc... kind of explains why zombies are all insane.
If ever there was a case to be made for cremation or death by steamroller, that's good enough for me.
That must also be why they eat the brains of the living, so they aren't tormented with being dead with a functioning mental capacity
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That must also be why they eat the brains of the living, so they aren't tormented with being dead with a functioning mental capacity
And all this time, I never thought zombies were actually trying to help us out. There must be a god after all!
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Speaking of zombies:
http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/brain-and-behavior/articles/2011/05/25/being-born-again-linked-to-more-brain-atrophy-study (http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/brain-and-behavior/articles/2011/05/25/being-born-again-linked-to-more-brain-atrophy-study)
Don't be offended catholics, it's only the 'born again' types.
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Yes. That was my point.
I can't say I necessarily have a "belief" for when that day comes. However, I do believe I should enjoy the life I have, and treat others with respect. If it so happens that I'm cognizant in "death", then I'll try to enjoy the death I have, and treat others with respect. Unless I become a flesh eating zombie, then you all are screwed.
so your 3rd option is to move to Madison....
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so your 3rd option is to move to Madison....
Madison only allows one flesh-eating zombie at a time. So either Rocky has to become a vegan zombie or wait for Bo Ryan to move on.
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I thought the zombies in Madison only came out during Special Olympics ceremonies in which the governor was honoring those Olympians. Are they out more often than that?
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Those posting on Zombies here were connected, at the same time, to the same Jungian non local consciousness that resulted in this Zombie sighting in KY:
http://weirdnews.aol.com/2011/06/24/zombie-warning-kentucky-_n_883737.html
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Poll added, what the heck.
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How often do posters have to get to church to keep off the nonpracticing list?
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I'd say .. if you're not going at least once a month = non-practicing.
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Why is it only Catholics get to be "non-practicing"?
Can you be a non-practicing agnostic? Or perhaps you should just add an option "I was baptized, so I'm pretty sure none of the other stuff matters".
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Well, the reason is that Catholics have many physical obligations as part of their practice....attend mass, attend confession, etc. So a non-practicing Catholic is someone who doesn't do those obligations, but still considers themselves Catholic. I am a Lutheran and as such, really don't have similar obligations in the Catholic sense. IOW, you can't be a non-practicing Lutheran if their are no obligations to practice.
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Why is it only Catholics get to be "non-practicing"?
Can you be a non-practicing agnostic? Or perhaps you should just add an option "I was baptized, so I'm pretty sure none of the other stuff matters".
I would be more interested in meeting a person who claims to be a 'practicing' agnostic. There are nonpracticing Jews. I think you are able to be 'nonpracticing' once something becomes tied into your cultural heritage rather than you belief structure. Some would consider me a nonpracticing catholic because I will still get dragged to church with my family on holidays, although I don't buy into any primitive cultural mythology.
Sultan: I thought Lutherans were still supposed to go to mass.
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Sultan: I thought Lutherans were still supposed to go to mass.
That is why I said "in the Catholic sense." It isn't really a "Holy Day of Obligation" that is a grave sin if intentionally missed.
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I would be more interested in meeting a person who claims to be a 'practicing' agnostic. There are nonpracticing Jews. I think you are able to be 'nonpracticing' once something becomes tied into your cultural heritage rather than you belief structure. Some would consider me a nonpracticing catholic because I will still get dragged to church with my family on holidays, although I don't buy into any primitive cultural mythology.
Sultan: I thought Lutherans were still supposed to go to mass.
I believe Lutherans call it "Service" not Mass.
In my youth, if we were skipping Mass after a long night of, well, whatever, we always said we were Lutheran for the weekend.
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I answered Catholic to the poll. I go to Mass most Sundays.
I was looking for a category called "Troubled Catholic" or maybe "American Catholic" or maybe "Questioning Catholic"
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I was looking for a category called "Troubled Catholic" or maybe "American Catholic" or maybe "Questioning Catholic"
I'd argue that being a "Questioning Catholic" is a great label to have.
Unexamined or unquestioned faith grows stale after time. The more it is challenged or thought about the better.
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I'd argue that being a "Questioning Catholic" is a great label to have.
Unexamined or unquestioned faith grows stale after time. The more it is challenged or thought about the better.
+1
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I believe Lutherans call it "Service" not Mass.
In my youth, if we were skipping Mass after a long night of, well, whatever, we always said we were Lutheran for the weekend.
No,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_(liturgy)
"Mass is the Eucharistic celebration in the Latin liturgical rites of the Roman Catholic Church. The term is used also of similar celebrations in Old Catholic Churches, in the Anglo-Catholic tradition of Anglicanism, in Western Rite Orthodox Churches, and in Lutheran churches."
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Growing up Lutheran, we never called it Mass. I have never heard the phrased used before. However, there are hundreds of "Lutheran" governing bodies throughout the world so I am sure it is called "Mass" in many locations.
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I'd argue that being a "Questioning Catholic" is a great label to have.
Unexamined or unquestioned faith grows stale after time. The more it is challenged or thought about the better.
I have a hard time thinking of a catholic, under the age of 50 and non-clergy, who I'd call an "un-questioning catholic". Catholic education teaches them to question. A good thing, unless you are concerned about the number of our grandkids who are going to be "not at all catholic".
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I have a hard time thinking of a catholic, under the age of 50 and non-clergy, who I'd call an "un-questioning catholic". Catholic education teaches them to question. A good thing, unless you are concerned about the number of our grandkids who are going to be "not at all catholic".
I'm not sure this is true.
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How about "intertia Catholic"? As in, I disagree with some of the church teachings, but I am comfortable with the rituals and too lazy to actually go out looking for another church?
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Cafeteria Catholic is the term that has been around for many years. People pick and choose what they want to follow, how outraged they are about other stuff and all hoping for the E-Ticket to the pearly gates in the end.
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Cafeteria Catholic is the term that has been around for many years. People pick and choose what they want to follow, how outraged they are about other stuff and all hoping for the E-Ticket to the pearly gates in the end.
That's fits me perfectly.
Thanks for the tip and proud to join your team.
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If any of you heresiarchs ever closed Wolski's, you would believe in God.
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No,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_(liturgy)
"Mass is the Eucharistic celebration in the Latin liturgical rites of the Roman Catholic Church. The term is used also of similar celebrations in Old Catholic Churches, in the Anglo-Catholic tradition of Anglicanism, in Western Rite Orthodox Churches, and in Lutheran churches."
Not saying you're totally incorrect, but I've never heard a Lutheran in SE Wisconsin (kind of a bastion of Lutheranism) call it a Mass.
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I'm not sure this is true.
I'm not sure either, but I'd lay significant amounts of cash on products of catholic education being more independent thinkers than people coming out of the moody bible institute.
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Cafeteria Catholic is the term that has been around for many years. People pick and choose what they want to follow, how outraged they are about other stuff and all hoping for the E-Ticket to the pearly gates in the end.
yes, funny thing about the cafeteria nature of catholicism is that, over generations, it results in a sub-culture that is a microcosm of the greater culture where it exists.
So if you poll catholics about gay marriage, or if you just randomly call people across the country you'll get similar results. This also happens with abortion, divorce, birth control, and several other social issues.
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With 42 votes .. Catholic / Non-Practicing Cath .. 55%
The surprise/no surprise is that the #2 spot goes to Atheist/Agnostic, at 17%
I'd also be curious about godless 17% .. I'll bet 90+% of their parents practiced some faith.
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How about "inertia Catholic"? As in, I disagree with some of the church teachings, but I am comfortable with the rituals and too lazy to actually go out looking for another church?
+1. Besides, once you've belonged to one church, joining another is pretty much the same premise (a proof-less creation/explanation story) with a different slant.
If you want something completely different, your choices are i) start your own church or ii) join a cult... neither of which appeal to us inertia Catholics.
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I'm not sure either, but I'd lay significant amounts of cash on products of catholic education being more independent thinkers than people coming out of the moody bible institute.
I would agree with that absolutely. Catholics are more independent than the Christian extremists
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http://dudeism.com/
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+1. Besides, once you've belonged to one church, joining another is pretty much the same premise (a proof-less creation/explanation story) with a different slant.
If you want something completely different, your choices are i) start your own church or ii) join a cult... neither of which appeal to us inertia Catholics.
Inertia Catholics--a web solution is pending...go with the winner of Create Your Own Religion...some of these are pretty funny:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/27/create-your-own-religion_n_885279.html#s299089&title=Modernism
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That's fits me perfectly.
Thanks for the tip and proud to join your team.
I'm not a theologian and people much smarter than me in that area guide the church doctrine, hopefully with some divine inspiration. As such, I try follow those edicts, but do not follow them all. I support the Death Penalty, for example. Most other issues I follow the church.
I suspect because I haven't been as true to the teachings as I should, that I will not get that E-Ticket.
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With 42 votes .. Catholic / Non-Practicing Cath .. 55%
The surprise/no surprise is that the #2 spot goes to Atheist/Agnostic, at 17%
I'd also be curious about godless 17% .. I'll bet 90+% of their parents practiced some faith.
You should include 'some sort of supreme being' in there as that also falls under the 'unaffiliated' group.
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Cafeteria Catholic is the term that has been around for many years. People pick and choose what they want to follow, how outraged they are about other stuff and all hoping for the E-Ticket to the pearly gates in the end.
And here you have the crux of all religions, all protestant denominations. The protestant reformation came out of people picking and choosing what they wanted to follow. Today's megachurches, the same. Do they want to follow the "gospel of prosperity", do they want to follow Pat Robertson, do they want to follow a guy predicting the end of the world on 5/21/11, do they want to follow Jeremiah Wright, or Rob Bell, do they want to be Anglican, which is 90% Catholic? The Catholic Church ended up listening to a lot of what Luther had to say. In the end, even those who follow 100% of Catholic doctrine are rolling the dice and hoping they chose the right horse on which to snag the E-ticket. We could all be wrong and Islam could have it right. We won't know until we die. It is a matter of faith and hope.
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I suspect because I haven't been as true to the teachings as I should, that I will not get that E-Ticket.
I suspect God would be awfully lonely if that were the case.
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And here you have the crux of all religions, all protestant denominations. The protestant reformation came out of from people picking and choosing what they wanted to follow. Today's megachurches, the same. Do they want to follow the "gospel of prosperity", do they want to follow Pat Robertson, do they want to follow a guy predicting the end of the world on 5/21/11, do they want to follow Jeremiah Wright, or Rob Bell, do they want to be Anglican, which is 90% Catholic? The Catholic Church ended up listening to a lot of what Luther had to say. In the end, even those who follow 100% of Catholic doctrine are rolling the dice and hoping they chose the right horse on which to snag the E-ticket. We could all be wrong and Islam could have it right. We won't know until we die. It is a matter of faith and hope.
As an agnostic I wouldn't be wrong. I would say: "Really? I assigned this a very low probability of being correct."
Which is how I feel about all religions that say that there is a loving, omnipotent god, with a plan. A plan that includes large % of population going to hell to be tortured for all time, based on where/when they were born. (note for catholics: you don't believe this. Loopholes were added so that Gandhi could go to heaven.)
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As an agnostic I wouldn't be wrong. I would say: "Really? I assigned this a very low probability of being correct."
Which is how I feel about all religions that say that there is a loving, omnipotent god, with a plan. A plan that includes large % of population going to hell to be tortured for all time, based on where/when they were born. (note for catholics: you don't believe this. Loopholes were added so that Gandhi could go to heaven.)
On the cafeteria menu of Catholic beliefs, hell is the tapioca pudding.
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Quote from Skatastrophy
It's not personal beliefs. It's idiocy that so many Americans think that a Sky Wizard is responsible for everything, so much so that it's integral to our country's politics. Friggin scary, imo.
Quote from Chicos
Sky wizard...that actually made me chuckle. . I believe in God, but don't necessarily think "it" is out there making my team wins, keeping the airplane in the sky or whatever. Some folks do, and that's fine by me. If it brings some order to things, some discipline, some respect for humanity, then I don't see the harm. I'm more agnostic than anything...I think a God exists and too many things too perfectly happened, IMO, to get where we are today. That being said, could be absolutely nothing and when we die, it goes dark and that's it.
At the end of the day, a lot of us here could be fools and a lot of us here could be wishing they believed. We'll all find out at some point.
Quote from Benny B
My all-time favorite South Park quote (rant):
"Maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense, and maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up. But I have a great life and a great family, and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don't care if Joseph Smith made it all up, because what the Church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even though people in this town might think that's stupid, I still choose to believe in it. All I ever did was try to be your friend, Stan, but you're so high and mighty you couldn't look past my religion and just be my friend back. You've got a lot of growing up to do, buddy. Suck my balls."
For someone who made his fortune off of pointing out how 99% of Americans are naive, hypocrites, or just plain dumb, Trey Parker actually has a lot of poignant thoughts when it comes to religion, some of which are revealed in his art, some of which he discusses in interviews. It's worth a Google search if you have time, regardless of what you believe.
Don’t they still require 12 credits of theology to graduate from Marquette regardless of major. Did any of you take New Testament studies (required of all students when I attended in the 60s)? If not, it’s a shame. Now I know what St. Paul was up against when he wrote his letter to the Corinthians (First Corinthians, Chapter 15). For those not familiar there were many in Corinth who did not believe in the Resurrection of Jesus. In his letter he tells the Corinthians that Jesus was seen by Cephas and then by eleven others after his crucifixion and burial. He goes on to say Jesus was seen by James and then by all the remaining apostles. He was even seen by 500 all at the same time and finally he himself is witness.
I write this not to persuade anyone there is a God or not. Just want to let those of you who do not believe there is a God or just don’t know that those of us who do are not “idiots”. I just happen to believe someone who lived during Christ’s life and presents I witness accounts.
On a more serious note God must be a Yankee fan. How else can one explain 48 post season appearances, 40 American League Championships and 27 World Series Championships over the last 90 years.
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9 credits of theology to graduate
I took Islam and Buddhism for 6 of my 9 because they were required for my East Asian Studies minor. So I only had 3 credits of Catholicism but 12 years of it coming into MU.
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"Don’t they still require 12 credits of theology to graduate from Marquette regardless of major. Did any of you take New Testament studies (required of all students when I attended in the 60s)? If not, it’s a shame. Now I know what St. Paul was up against when he wrote his letter to the Corinthians (First Corinthians, Chapter 15). For those not familiar there were many in Corinth who did not believe in the Resurrection of Jesus. In his letter he tells the Corinthians that Jesus was seen by Cephas and then by eleven others after his crucifixion and burial. He goes on to say Jesus was seen by James and then by all the remaining apostles. He was even seen by 500 all at the same time and finally he himself is witness.
I took the course, but didnt find my education requiring of my indoctrination.
So, I kept asking questions, and later learned some answers my educators/indoctrinators ignored.. among those things as I learned later....was that ....
neither Paul nor any New Testament writer was a contemporary, eyewitness, or earwitness of Jesus events. Note the year when Corinthians was written.
Which New Testament writer heard the actual Jesus words he quotes, or saw the Jesus acts he describes? None.
Why does Paul claim he was a Pharissee, when all his life events point to him being a Sadduce? There is a big difference.
If Paul was a Pharissee why didnt he write in their much revered Hebrew, and instead in their hated Greek?
There were other New Testament books written, that never made the cut, but we were never told of their existence.
As I said... I took the course...but to this day I wonder, Why werent we ever told this in our education? I agree with you --we werent idiots... but we were purposefully left ignorant of all facts--- why?
To your specific words... there are no (I-sic)eyewitness of Jesus writers of the New Testament--our course, and teachers failed us there--but you have learned that part since then---right?
To give you an accurate perspective the timing of New Testament writing would be....nowdays... someone who spent the last decade writing about the exploits of a soldier in vietnam.. complete with quotes and accounts of his conduct....but told by the writers, as if they were there...Kind of a 2000s dated book---
Vietnam Eyewitness Testament: The acts and words of General Westmoreland, by George Bush....including as told me by Al Haig, and Colin Powell, (with whom I've had my differences).lol
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Houston...maybe.
This, again, gets into the wonderful topic of history and what experts want to make it out to be. You may be correct that there are no eyewitnesses to Jesus that wrote the New Testament, certainly a belief held by a number of scholars. Some scholars argue that the New Testament is mostly made up of writings many years later by people passing on stories, often parables of virtue rather than real accounts of his life. Yet there are other scholars that say Matthew and John were eyewitnesses to Jesus.
I have no idea if that is true or not, none of us do.
As an example, these scholars believe the Gospels were written based on eyewitness testimony from those who knew Jesus or directly by the eyewitnesses themselves. Again, no idea if it is true but I suspect scholars don't always agree on this stuff.
http://books.google.com/books/about/Jesus_and_the_eyewitnesses.html?id=zcVVp_YD4w4C
http://www.amazon.com/Eyewitness-Jesus-Matthew-DAncona/dp/0385480512
http://godisforus.com/information/bible/ntdocs/conclusion.htm
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To your specific words... there are no (I-sic)eyewitness of Jesus writers of the New Testament--our course, and teachers failed us there--but you have learned that part since then---right?
Have you read 1 Corinthians Chapter 15? St. Paul says that if Christ did not rise from the dead our faith is a lie and all those who preach it are liars. He assures us that Christ did indeed arise, from his own and others experience. He was beheaded for that belief. When these words were written is not as important as to the content and message he conveys from his own experience to those who read his words. Again, I was not indoctrinated I find Paul's message inspiring and true. I will take the word of someone who lived it and acknowleges that if Christ were not raised it's all just a lie rather than some scholars two thouand years removed from these events who want to discredit the New Testament and St. Paul just to reinforce their own belief system.
You are free to believe what you want, just please don't insult me for believing Paul's (not my teachers') words.
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To your specific words... there are no (I-sic)eyewitness of Jesus writers of the New Testament--our course, and teachers failed us there--but you have learned that part since then---right?
Have you read 1 Corinthians Chapter 15? St. Paul says that if Christ did not rise from the dead our faith is a lie and all those who preach it are liars. He assures us that Christ did indeed arise, from his own and others experience. He was beheaded for that belief. When these words were written is not as important as to the content and message he conveys from his own experience to those who read his words. Again, I was not indoctrinated I find Paul's message inspiring and true. I will take the word of someone who lived it and acknowleges that if Christ were not raised it's all just a lie rather than some scholars two thouand years removed from these events who want to discredit the New Testament and St. Paul just to reinforce their own belief system.
You are free to believe what you want, just please don't insult me for believing Paul's (not my teachers') words.
I don't think he is insulting you. He is merely asking questions.
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9 credits of theology to graduate
Only 6 for me. (Business, 2010)
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I remember the protestant theology overview course, and the one that spent the semester split between liberation theology and the bishops' encyclical on the economy, calling for a capitalism/socialism hybrid........ (mid 80's)
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To Houston's point, if you want to kill some time learning about some texts that were not included in the Biblical canon...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_apocrypha
And also how the canon was developed...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon
One thing you will see is that there were oftentimes legitimate reasons why certain books were kept over others (such as 90% of theologians at the time belived most of Paul's letters to be legit.) However it was clear that some differing early views of the Christian Church were intentionally disregarded....oftentimes for not sound theological reasons....in the development of what is today the Bible.
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9 credits of theology to graduate
I took Islam and Buddhism for 6 of my 9 because they were required for my East Asian Studies minor. So I only had 3 credits of Catholicism but 12 years of it coming into MU.
When I was attending Marquette you only earned 2 credits for each theology course. I wound up taking 8 classes one with Karl Rahner who was a visiting professor at the time, obtaining a minor in theology. Just to put things in perspective I double majored in Chemistry and Biology; and double minored in Theology and Philosophy. I had to to take one extra semester to complete all my course work, graduating in December '69. It was an interesting time to be at Marquette. There were post Vatican II folks who wanted to change everything and then here were you Pre-Vatican II Stalwarts who wanted to change nothing.
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3 courses here. I took Intro with some Lutheran professor. Islam with a really old priest whose name I forgot...taught right out of the book. And Eastern Orthodoxy with this guy...
http://www.marquette.edu/theology/golitzin.shtml
He was in his first semester of teaching and had trouble with connecting with the class. But I found him pretty facinating...learned a great deal in that course.
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If I recall correctly, I took three theology courses (I was College of Speech - later renamed CJPA). I took one general course and two scripture courses with Fr. Kurz (http://www.marquette.edu/theology/kurz.shtml). I enjoyed the classes with Fr. Kurz, and was pleased to see that he's still teaching at Marquette.
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3 courses here. I took Intro with some Lutheran professor. Islam with a really old priest whose name I forgot...taught right out of the book. And Eastern Orthodoxy with this guy...
http://www.marquette.edu/theology/golitzin.shtml
He was in his first semester of teaching and had trouble with connecting with the class. But I found him pretty facinating...learned a great deal in that course.
Father Lambeck taugh Islam. He scared the hell out of me. LOL. I had him for Buddhism as well.
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When I was attending Marquette you only earned 2 credits for each theology course. I wound up taking 8 classes one with Karl Rahner who was a visiting professor at the time, obtaining a minor in theology. Just to put things in perspective I double majored in Chemistry and Biology; and double minored in Theology and Philosophy. I had to to take one extra semester to complete all my course work, graduating in December '69. It was an interesting time to be at Marquette. There were post Vatican II folks who wanted to change everything and then here were you Pre-Vatican II Stalwarts who wanted to change nothing.
I'll bet that was an interesting time in many ways.
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Yes Chicos...Lambeck. Thank you. He was really old.
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The great irony of all this is that if you were to boil every religion, including agnostic and atheist down to their core, all are the same.
-The universe was created and all life formed whether by a sky wizard or by a superheated and compressed explosion of matter(or both)
-Human life formed
-Activities have taken place within human history that were caused by something outside of human control
-There is a great unknown beyond life as we know it that we are all hoping to discover.
-We don't understand everything and have control over very little of all there is in the universe
Basically, everything else boils down to a fight over history and the very little bit of control humans can actually exert on their own lives.
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Father Lambeck taugh Islam. He scared the hell out of me. LOL. I had him for Buddhism as well.
I had Fr Lambeck for Buddhism in 1998 or 1999. Dude was old as a turtle. Rumor had it, he had a stroke mid semester, missed 1 class, and was back. I had him for Christian Theology too (the intro class was Christian, not Catholic theology).
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The great irony of all this is that if you were to boil every religion, including agnostic and atheist down to their core, all are the same.
-The universe was created and all life formed whether by a sky wizard or by a superheated and compressed explosion of matter(or both)
-Human life formed
-Activities have taken place within human history that were caused by something outside of human control
-There is a great unknown beyond life as we know it that we are all hoping to discover.
-We don't understand everything and have control over very little of all there is in the universe
Basically, everything else boils down to a fight over history and the very little bit of control humans can actually exert on their own lives.
A lot of atheists would disagree with you. They believe when we die, we rot in the ground.
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A lot of atheists would disagree with you. They believe when we die, we rot in the ground.
Almost everybody, to one degree or another, fears that possibility. Holding it as an "article of faith" seems awfully grim.
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A lot of atheists would disagree with you. They believe when we die, we rot in the ground.
The great unknown might be literally nothing so it jives with atheists.
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The great irony of all this is that if you were to boil every religion, including agnostic and atheist down to their core, all are the same.
-The universe was created and all life formed whether by a sky wizard or by a superheated and compressed explosion of matter(or both)
-Human life formed
-Activities have taken place within human history that were caused by something outside of human control
-There is a great unknown beyond life as we know it that we are all hoping to discover.
-We don't understand everything and have control over very little of all there is in the universe
Basically, everything else boils down to a fight over history and the very little bit of control humans can actually exert on their own lives.
Ok, then Seinfeld and Sex and the City are the same, Pizza is the same as Lasagna, & Megan Fox is the same as Glenn Close.
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Ok, then Seinfeld and Sex and the City are the same, Pizza is the same as Lasagna, & Megan Fox is the same as Glenn Close.
Boom, roasted!
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Ok, then Seinfeld and Sex and the City are the same, Pizza is the same as Lasagna, & Megan Fox is the same as Glenn Close.
No you are exactly right, which is my point, we are are trying to argue about whether Seinfeld is better than Sex and the City. People like and gravitate towards a different types of television entertainment. There will never be a tv program that is universally loved nor will their be a universal religion. One might even argue the sky wizard, understanding people's contrarian nature, guided multiple religious doctrines so that at the end of the day everyone or nearly everyone would get the same basic messaging.
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No you are exactly right, which is my point, we are are trying to argue about whether Seinfeld is better than Sex and the City. ok, a perfectly legitimate discussion...People like and gravitate towards a different types of television entertainment. People don't gravitate towards religion. The vast majority just stay whith what they are born into.There will never be a tv program that is universally loved nor will their be a universal religion. You can say that about anything. Why not bring up how both Bibles and Korans are constructed out of atoms? Then call it "the great irony."One might even argue the sky wizard, understanding people's contrarian nature, guided multiple religious doctrines so that at the end of the day everyone or nearly everyone would get the same basic messaging.Ones do argue that, they are called MyMom.
I guess I don't understand what your point is.
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I guess I don't understand what your point is.
The point is all religions are delivering the same basic message in different packaging. If everyone can just get over the packaging we'd all be better off.
I find it remarkable that all religions have the same features and similar stories but are formed in different places and different times.
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The point is all religions are delivering the same basic message in different packaging. If everyone can just get over the packaging we'd all be better off.
I find it remarkable that all religions have the same features and similar stories but are formed in different places and different times.
Ok, but packaging matters to people, so we can't.
I don't think it's that remarkable. First those similarities are overstated. Second the amount of trade and Idea exchanges in the early days are underrated. We all stared up at the same sky and exchanged ideas about it with passers by. You couldn't even make up a religion that didn't match your boiled down points but you are surprised that none occurred naturally?
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The point is all religions are delivering the same basic message in different packaging. If everyone can just get over the packaging we'd all be better off.
I find it remarkable that all religions have the same features and similar stories but are formed in different places and different times.
(Not wishing to be drawn into the mueng03 back and forth, but) ...
I agree with you...I find the millenia long deep differences between Christians, Muslims, and Jews to be ironic, given that all of them worship the exact same God...the God of Abraham.
Islam breaks off with the eldest son of Abraham, Ishmael, whereas Judeo-Christian tracks the other son, Isaac. Talk about sibling rivalry leading to this--wow!
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Ok, but packaging matters to people, so we can't.
I don't think it's that remarkable. First those similarities are overstated. Second the amount of trade and Idea exchanges in the early days are underrated. We all stared up at the same sky and exchanged ideas about it with passers by. You couldn't even make up a religion that didn't match your boiled down points but you are surprised that none occurred naturally?
Actually, Scientology doesn't look anything like my points. And that is definitely a made up religion ;)
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Ok, but packaging matters to people, so we can't.
I don't think it's that remarkable. First those similarities are overstated. Second the amount of trade and Idea exchanges in the early days are underrated. We all stared up at the same sky and exchanged ideas about it with passers by. You couldn't even make up a religion that didn't match your boiled down points but you are surprised that none occurred naturally?
I'll happily acknowledge the plausibility of a poncho-clad hippie forest goddess called Mother Nature when atheists acknowledge the plausibility of the a wizard.
"Animals eat other animals. It's nature."
"No, it's not. We taught a lion to eat tofu."
[Pan to scrawny, anemic lion]
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Actually, Scientology doesn't look anything like my points. And that is definitely a made up religion ;)
Yeah, I'm not a high enough level to know what Scientology says about the creation of the universe. I think if you apply that standard across the board it would toss out Yoga, Wicca, all polytheistic religions, and agnostics.
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I'll happily acknowledge the plausibility of a poncho-clad hippie forest goddess called Mother Nature when atheists acknowledge the plausibility of the a wizard.
"Animals eat other animals. It's nature."
"No, it's not. We taught a lion to eat tofu."
[Pan to scrawny, anemic lion]
Some scholars think that all 'son of god' motifs come from a hippie forest goddess myth.
I don't think atheists have much to apologize for, they are still one of our most distrusted subcultures.
Polls show that 36% of people would be less likely to vote for a political candidate that was gay. 63% of the respondents said they would be negatively impacted by the candidate being an atheist.