I hate having to start with disclaimers justifying talking about Crean, but he was our old coach, he left MU because "It's Indiana" and he thought he could get better players. We are related to this, and let's just check out the facts and see if he can get the better players that he thought he would get.
Indiana's strength was supposedly attractiveness to instate recruits. Here are the 2011 instate guys according to Rivals150, with their ranking and commitment if already made:
5- Marquis Teague- Kentucky
25- Branden Dawsen
35- Cody Zeller
52- Michael Chandler
91- Ryan Taylor- Louisville
94- Darwin Davis- Xavier
118- Jeremiah Davis
Four of them remain uncommitted. Dawsen was supposed to be a Purdue lean, and I thought Chandler was a KY lean. People have been waiting for him to get the in-state talent and people were being patient for Crean to get his program established and then get rolling with the 2011 and 2012 classes with lots of instate talent.
Can he go 2/4 on these guys in the top 150? I would say probably due to playing time available but who knows. He can obviously still get out of state kids, but these were supposed to be easier for him.
wow it would be rediculous to steal an Indiana recruit away from TC. I want Dawson real bad.
Marshall Plumlee is from Muncie, IN but I guess moved out. He is ranked 99 on Rivals, but comitted to Duke.
How sweet it will be to steal Dawsen! ;D
Zeller is suppose to be a unc lock as well.
Yeah, he needs to start putting his money where his mouth is. Listening to Indy sports talk last season, it was becoming obvious that local fans were already beginning to question Crean's ability to win there. They weren't just losing last season, they were getting throttled! I suspect if they have another bad season, the majority of the alumni will be calling for his head. I give him 2 more years there, followed by a either a lesser D1 job or a car salesman for Saab.
I'm grateful for what he did for us, but I hope he fails at Indiana!
He may be able to move the goal post to the 2012 class as there are a lot of in-state players in that class too. A decent season this year and his ability to final sell his facilities might be enough for him to land 2012 guys, especially if that Zeller guy really goes to UNC.
A mediocre recruiter combined with a program that's in shambles doesn't lend itself to top instate recruits playing for the home team. Couldn't happen to as more deserving prick.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 20, 2010, 01:36:02 PM
A mediocre recruiter combined with a program that's in shambles doesn't lend itself to top instate recruits playing for the home team. Couldn't happen to as more deserving prick.
We all know he was a band-aid to help lighten the NCAA's heavy hand.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on July 20, 2010, 01:36:02 PM
A mediocre recruiter combined with a program that's in shambles doesn't lend itself to top instate recruits playing for the home team. Couldn't happen to as more deserving prick.
If he worked as hard at IU as he did at MU for his 1st 4 years, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Pudgy, tan and lazy is no way to go through life.
He's already got Austin Etherington as a verbal commit.
Kid's about 6'6" and can pop from the outside. I watched him some in person last week (plays with Indiana Elite.. along with Zeller, Plumlee and J-Davis)... Crean was hanging out for most of their games in the gym as well. Plumlee is overrated and gone to Duke... Zeller is an excellent player but don't think that's going to happen for TT. Jeremiah Davis could wind up there, but he's not overly impressive.
Crean isn't getting recruits because of his personality. He's got ZERO charisma and complete absence of any kind of connection with high school players and, more than likely, players on IU who regret signing there. Even shaved head, pudgy odd-dressing Buzz has 10x the charisma of Crean. This is a guy who can hold up DWade as a former player and he still can't draw flies!!
Crean took us to a final 4, Got us in the Big East, recruited our greatest player in history and left a team the has won at least 22 games the last 2 years. I like Buzz better, but cut the man some slack.
Quote from: kmwtrucks on July 20, 2010, 03:10:12 PM
Crean took us to a final 4, Got us in the Big East, recruited our greatest player in history and left a team the has won at least 22 games the last 2 years. I like Buzz better, but cut the man some slack.
He's a complete and total a55h0le, so I will not cut him any slack.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on July 20, 2010, 03:13:28 PM
He's a complete and total a55h0le, so I will not cut him any slack.
Yawn
Crean should not need any slack. It's year 3 at a top 10 program. He has the top facilities now and has loads of talent in his backyard. He also has an impressive resume and lots of playing time to sell.
The tone when he left was that he was going to better places and he would finally be able to land top talent, and probably go all the way. He didn't list out concrete goals when he was hired, but I cannot imagine his plan was to be a significant underdog to recruit the last 3 or 4 recruits in his own state when there is lots of talent.
Plumlee is not from Muncie...he is from Warsaw...same HS as Rick Fox and Jeff Grose. Same HS as current major recruit Nic Moore, Warsaw played in the state title game this spring...they would have been awesome the last 4-5 years with his brothers and those guys around.
Have to admit, I'm not really bothered either way. My only hope is he doesn't get Dawson because we're also pursuing him, but beyond that, I really don't see how the recruits at a (currently) bottom-feeding Big Ten school have any bearing remotely on Marquette or our upcoming season :-\
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 20, 2010, 04:20:56 PM
Have to admit, I'm not really bothered either way. My only hope is he doesn't get Dawson because we're also pursuing him, but beyond that, I really don't see how the recruits at a (currently) bottom-feeding Big Ten school have any bearing remotely on Marquette or our upcoming season :-\
The discussion is not about the recruits but Crean's downfall as a head coach in major D-I basketball. This is a topic relevant to Marquette that a lot a fans are interested in. Not every thread can tie directly to our upcoming season, especially in mid-July.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on July 20, 2010, 03:13:28 PM
He's a complete and total a55h0le, so I will not cut him any slack.
Wow, your man-love for TC grows by leaps and bounds every passing moment. Get a life, dude.
I had just got through saying to someone that the one thing MUScoop needs is another Crean thread.... ::)
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 20, 2010, 05:16:18 PM
I had just got through saying to someone that the one thing MUScoop needs is another Crean thread.... ::)
Why don't we have a D1 football team?
Quote from: windyplayer on July 20, 2010, 04:34:26 PM
The discussion is not about the recruits but Crean's downfall as a head coach in major D-I basketball. This is a topic relevant to Marquette that a lot a fans are interested in. Not every thread can tie directly to our upcoming season, especially in mid-July.
No, I get that, it just feels like we've beaten this horse well beyond death. We're pretty much to the point where the horse is dead, the flesh is rotting away, and we still feel the need to grind the bones to make our bread. So Crean isn't doing well. Who cares? Do we constantly belabor Mike Deane's current career? Kevin O'Neill's? Crean's gone, Marquette is still doing well, just seems like it's about time we got over it.
The constant potshots at a guy who's gone really just make us Marquette fans look petty and jilted, like an ex-girlfriend that calls you to rub in that you got written up at work despite her being with a new guy for the past two years in another state. Seriously, is there any remote reason we should care?
This is not relationships. It is sports. Supporting a team is irrational on many levels, and so is discussing sports. The nice thing about sports is that there are no major consequences for fans like there is in personal relationships. This is a college bball board and our former coach is the topic. I don't think we look bad at all. I enjoy checking in on him and I guarantee everyone else does on some level too.
This is focused on recruiting and his coaching job anyway, not him as a person. Most of us can handle just talking about him. It's a pretty reasonable forum to do so. Particularly this year as we are head to head on a recruit with him.
It seems like if you bring up Crean, you are bound to be accused of not being "over it." If we talk about the Amigos are we not over them either? There is nothing to be "over." Can we bring up Crean and discuss him without being psychoanalyzed for not being "over it." Even if we do have negative things to say, so what? As long as it relates to basketball. If you want to defend his job recruiting at Indiana, fine. If you want to learn more about recruiting or what is going on, fine. No one is attacking others here, and its generally a fine discussion.
We are talking college hoops here. This is not a soap opera.
Yeah Hoops, it sounds all good in theory, but when you say stuf like this below, it's clear that this is just a circular way for you to bash on the guy some more.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 20, 2010, 03:27:05 PM
The tone when he left was that he was going to better places and he would finally be able to land top talent, and probably go all the way. He didn't list out concrete goals when he was hired, but I cannot imagine his plan was to be a significant underdog to recruit the last 3 or 4 recruits in his own state when there is lots of talent.
I haven't cared for a couple of years now. I have no idea why it keeps getting brought up here. It's completely petty.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 21, 2010, 05:52:11 AM
Yeah Hoops, it sounds all good in theory, but when you say stuf like this below, it's clear that this is just a circular way for you to bash on the guy some more.
I haven't cared for a couple of years now. I have no idea why it keeps getting brought up here. It's completely petty.
Suggestion: Petition to have yourself appointed "End of Discussion" Czar. When you are no longer interested in a topic you can declare "case closed". You can save us from our pettiness and elevate us to that higher ground that you so humbly occupy.
Quote from: brewcity77 on July 20, 2010, 05:55:26 PM
No, I get that, it just feels like we've beaten this horse well beyond death. We're pretty much to the point where the horse is dead, the flesh is rotting away, and we still feel the need to grind the bones to make our bread. So Crean isn't doing well. Who cares? Do we constantly belabor Mike Deane's current career? Kevin O'Neill's? Crean's gone, Marquette is still doing well, just seems like it's about time we got over it.
The constant potshots at a guy who's gone really just make us Marquette fans look petty and jilted, like an ex-girlfriend that calls you to rub in that you got written up at work despite her being with a new guy for the past two years in another state. Seriously, is there any remote reason we should care?
I agree that the invective is unnecessary, but an unbiased discussion on Crean's coaching status is interesting. It's hard to compare Crean to those other coaches because of the level of success Crean had at Marquette, his controversial exit, and the fact that it happened only a few years ago. Can you honestly say that you have zero interest in Crean's career post-Marquette?
Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 21, 2010, 12:12:44 AM
This is not relationships. It is sports. Supporting a team is irrational on many levels, and so is discussing sports. The nice thing about sports is that there are no major consequences for fans like there is in personal relationships. This is a college bball board and our former coach is the topic. I don't think we look bad at all. I enjoy checking in on him and I guarantee everyone else does on some level too.
This is focused on recruiting and his coaching job anyway, not him as a person. Most of us can handle just talking about him. It's a pretty reasonable forum to do so. Particularly this year as we are head to head on a recruit with him.
It seems like if you bring up Crean, you are bound to be accused of not being "over it." If we talk about the Amigos are we not over them either? There is nothing to be "over." Can we bring up Crean and discuss him without being psychoanalyzed for not being "over it." Even if we do have negative things to say, so what? As long as it relates to basketball. If you want to defend his job recruiting at Indiana, fine. If you want to learn more about recruiting or what is going on, fine. No one is attacking others here, and its generally a fine discussion.
We are talking college hoops here. This is not a soap opera.
Your not wrong Hoops but you are kidding yourself if you think you can bring up Crean and not have the discussion ultimately degrade into a "soap opera."
The reason people get annoyed when Crean is brought up is because it is only a matter of time before PRN et al start in with the "tanned ahole" comments. You may start a thread wanting to discuss Crean and his coaching and recruiting but the thread will soon go off the tracks.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 20, 2010, 05:16:18 PM
I had just got through saying to someone that the one thing MUScoop needs is another Crean thread.... ::)
TC is relevant in a Schadenfreude-ish way, and every once in a while there is a post that makes me laugh. I'll continue to mine through the TC threads.
Quote from: MUSF on July 21, 2010, 10:03:40 AM
Your not wrong Hoops but you are kidding yourself if you think you can bring up Crean and not have the discussion ultimately degrade into a "soap opera."
The reason people get annoyed when Crean is brought up is because it is only a matter of time before PRN et al start in with the "tanned ahole" comments. You may start a thread wanting to discuss Crean and his coaching and recruiting but the thread will soon go off the tracks.
He's absolutely the most polarizing figure related to MU hoops.
That makes him a popular/provocative topic... it keeps coming up over and over again.
But, that makes it hard to have real honest discussion about his performance. Too many biases for/against him.
I bet you can't have an honest discussion about Thad Motta on the XU boards for the same reasons.
Quote from: windyplayer on July 21, 2010, 09:23:27 AM
I agree that the invective is unnecessary, but an unbiased discussion on Crean's coaching status is interesting. It's hard to compare Crean to those other coaches because of the level of success Crean had at Marquette, his controversial exit, and the fact that it happened only a few years ago. Can you honestly say that you have zero interest in Crean's career post-Marquette?
I'll keep an eye on him from afar, just like I will Wade or Diener or the Three Amigos or most anyone else who had some influence on our program. But any time a Crean thread opens, it seems to instantly morph into a polarized crap-tossing festival. Maybe it's just me, but despite HoopsMalone's comments, it
feels like a soap opera.
I don't even think it's a question of being "over it" or not. I dislike Crean and the way that he left Marquette. But every time Crean so much as farts we need a thread here. Crean tweets about Lazar, let's start a thread. Crean recruits a kid that left another program for medical reasons, let's start a thread. Crean is being questioned by Indiana fans, let's start a thread. Crean takes credit for Matthews' success, let's start a thread. It just gets old.
I'm just getting anxious for the season to actually start, I think. Waiting for us to have something more to talk about than Crean this, Newbill that, and more things that become less and less relevant to Marquette by the day. Yeah, TC left us hanging, but I think we're better off with Buzz anyway. For the first time since 2003, it feels like we're in position to become one of the elite programs in college basketball. That's what excites me. Consecutive top 20 recruiting classes excites me. Landing guys like Blue, Jones, and Wilson on the heels of a class of DJO, Cadougan, and Williams, and looking ahead to potential future Golden Eagles like Dawson, Tokoto, and Faust excites me.
Watching the same tired re-run of "The Young and the Creanless" just doesn't do it for me anymore.
Or Bill Self on the U of I boards
Or Kelvin Sampson on the OU boards
Or John Calipari on the UMASS boards
Or Oliver Purnell on the Clemson boards
Or Sean Sutton on the OK State boards
Or Billy Gillespsie on the Texas A&M boards
Or Rick Pitino on the Kentucky boards
Or John Beilein on the WVU boards
Or Mike Davis on the IU boards
Any other lightening-rod departures that I'm missing? I'm guessing there are quite a few.
It's not just MU Scoopers who feel Crean is inexorably linked to MU. He is commonly referred to as ex Marquette coach Tom Crean in all forms of media. He himself frequently uses his past association with MU as a way of blowing his own horn. "What we did at Marquette" has been a common mantra for him even as "what we've accomplished at Indiana" becomes more problematical.
There are many topics that come up over and over again on this board. If (like me) you don't care or have no opinion on the MU/football issue why not just refrain from entering the discussion. Ditto with Tom Crean or Marquette's schedule. I could go on and on listing topics but here's my point: Any topic that relates to MU basketball past or present is appropriate for discussion on this board. The number of threads and responses will determine the interest and worth of the topic. I have vehemently disagreed with several posters over time and they with me. But however misguided I find their opinions/conclusions I value their contributions. Not so much with people who enter a discussion to let everyone know (smuggly with a distinct air of superiority) just how "over it" they are concerning the topic. That adds nothing.
Quote from: windyplayer on July 21, 2010, 11:18:05 AM
Or Bill Self on the U of I boards
Or Kelvin Sampson on the OU boards
Or John Calipari on the UMASS boards
Or Oliver Purnell on the Clemson boards
Or Sean Sutton on the OK State boards
Or Billy Gillespsie on the Texas A&M boards
Or Rick Pitino on the Kentucky boards
Or John Beilein on the WVU boards
Or Mike Davis on the IU boards
Any other lightening-rod departures that I'm missing? I'm guessing there are quite a few.
Let's face it, the coaching carousel starts every off season and there a handful of schools/fans that think they got screwed.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 21, 2010, 09:05:02 AM
Suggestion: Petition to have yourself appointed "End of Discussion" Czar. When you are no longer interested in a topic you can declare "case closed". You can save us from our pettiness and elevate us to that higher ground that you so humbly occupy.
That would be soooo cool...
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 21, 2010, 09:05:02 AM
Suggestion: Petition to have yourself appointed "End of Discussion" Czar. When you are no longer interested in a topic you can declare "case closed". You can save us from our pettiness and elevate us to that higher ground that you so humbly occupy.
Can he also determine when people's opinions should get them banned, or does Ners still hold that position?
Quote from: MUSF on July 22, 2010, 01:30:04 AM
Can he also determine when people's opinions should get them banned, or does Ners still hold that position?
That's a question beyond my pay grade. Check with the mods to see if someone can be a multi-czar.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on July 20, 2010, 03:29:03 PM
Plumlee is not from Muncie...he is from Warsaw...same HS as Rick Fox and Jeff Grose. Same HS as current major recruit Nic Moore, Warsaw played in the state title game this spring...they would have been awesome the last 4-5 years with his brothers and those guys around.
1. I can't believe you just threw a Jeff Grose reference. He surely was no Rod Grosse.
2. Muncie kicks the hell out of Warsaw in terms of a basketball history.
OK now back to the Crean bashing/love fest with no middle ground ;D
Quote from: MUSF on July 22, 2010, 01:30:04 AM
Can he also determine when people's opinions should get them banned, or does Ners still hold that position?
Have you not let go of that yet?!! Come on man. You called for corrective action on Buzz or a reparimand over the Newbill situation....and I played on the wording of your post by saying I'd call for your head and that the mods take corrective action and ban your account. Was it an exaggeration, and way overboard...YES...just as your 30+ posts drilling Buzz and calling for corrective action/reprimand became...Let it go dude!! I made 1 post to that effect - and only after you'd beat the dead horse on the Newbill recruitment over and over and over, approximately 30 times of your last 35 posts at that time...
Quote from: MUSF on July 21, 2010, 10:03:40 AM
Your not wrong Hoops but you are kidding yourself if you think you can bring up Crean and not have the discussion ultimately degrade into a "soap opera."
The reason people get annoyed when Crean is brought up is because it is only a matter of time before PRN et al start in with the "tanned ahole" comments. You may start a thread wanting to discuss Crean and his coaching and recruiting but the thread will soon go off the tracks.
How does one tan their a$$hole?
Quote from: LancesOtherNut on July 22, 2010, 11:41:45 AM
How does one tan their a$$hole?
Typically a tanning bed is best for this because you can lay down [REDACTED].
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 21, 2010, 11:33:09 AM
There are many topics that come up over and over again on this board. If (like me) you don't care or have no opinion on the MU/football issue why not just refrain from entering the discussion.
Yeah, I think the killer is you get those dull days at work when you'll read most anything, and stopping by MUScoop is near obligatory, so because there's nothing else to discuss in mid-July you end up in a tired topic you've seen 100 times before, and will probably see 100 times again. I'm just longing for Marquette Madness and getting closer to the season starting so maybe for at least a few months, we'll have something current and pertinent in regards to MU basketball. I think it's just as much jonesing for more to talk about as it is being tired of "Crean sucks" reruns.
Quote from: MUSF on July 21, 2010, 10:03:40 AM
the "tanned ahole" comments
Really? I didn't realize his ahole was also tanned. Who would have thought Tanned Tommy goes commando in the tanning booth
Quote from: LancesOtherNut on July 22, 2010, 11:41:45 AM
How does one tan their a$$hole?
Tommy must have a Cheek Spreader
Quote from: MedicineHatSpanker on July 23, 2010, 12:33:49 AM
Really? I didn't realize his ahole was also tanned. Who would have thought Tanned Tommy goes commando in the tanning booth
I will bet a year's salary that it is as tan as his face.
Prove me wrong!
I dare you!
Quote from: Ners on July 22, 2010, 10:36:39 AM
Have you not let go of that yet?!! Come on man. You called for corrective action on Buzz or a reparimand over the Newbill situation....and I played on the wording of your post by saying I'd call for your head and that the mods take corrective action and ban your account. Was it an exaggeration, and way overboard...YES...just as your 30+ posts drilling Buzz and calling for corrective action/reprimand became...Let it go dude!! I made 1 post to that effect - and only after you'd beat the dead horse on the Newbill recruitment over and over and over, approximately 30 times of your last 35 posts at that time...
Now who's not letting go?
I was making a joke. Trust me, I'm over it. Except for those nights when I wake up in a cold sweat then desperately log on to MUScoop to make sure Ners didn't get me banned. That only happens like once or twice a week though. Other than that, I'm over it.
Quote from: MUSF on July 23, 2010, 02:20:03 AM
Now who's not letting go?
I was making a joke. Trust me, I'm over it. Except for those nights when I wake up in a cold sweat then desperately log on to MUScoop to make sure Ners didn't get me banned. That only happens like once or twice a week though. Other than that, I'm over it.
Whew. Glad to hear it, and thanks for the clarification. Though it looks like last night might have been one of those nights you woke up in a cold sweat and logged on at 2:23AM to make sure you weren't banned. :D Peace.
Quote from: Ners on July 23, 2010, 09:50:16 AM
Whew. Glad to hear it, and thanks for the clarification. Though it looks like last night might have been one of those nights you woke up in a cold sweat and logged on at 2:23AM to make sure you weren't banned. :D Peace.
I don't know if you are aware of this, but the world is divided up into these things called time zones. So it's not really the same time everywhere.
MU fans and alums aren't just restricted to the U.S. We're worldwide baby!
Quote from: MUSF on July 23, 2010, 10:09:26 AM
I don't know if you are aware of this, but the world is divided up into these things called time zones. So it's not really the same time everywhere.
MU fans and alums aren't just restricted to the U.S. We're worldwide baby!
Thanks for the clarification on time zones - I was wondering if such a thing existed. I googled and now have a full understanding.
Quote from: MUSF on July 21, 2010, 10:03:40 AM
Your not wrong Hoops but you are kidding yourself if you think you can bring up Crean and not have the discussion ultimately degrade into a "soap opera."
There is a lot of truth to what you are saying. But I am genuinely interested in how he does. The thing is, I'm not really sure how to say this any other way, but most of the news coming out of Bloomington is negative. So it is natural for some of these responses. I mean, we had heard "wait until 2011 and 2012" and Crean will get some local talent. He still may, but it is interesting that he is an underdog on a lot of these instate guys. Might say more about the program than Crean.
But if there is some genuine facts reported about Crean, and those facts are not positive, then people get accused of Crean bashing. As long as the focus stays on basketball, I think these are good threads, but they get derailed for the reasons you pointed out MUSF.
Crean was alright, did alot for the program,more for himself. Never got the feeling he was totally here 100%. I'll take humble Buzz anyday.Crean showed his true caracter the way he slinked out of town.He had nice hair..
Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 23, 2010, 10:17:12 AM
There is a lot of truth to what you are saying. But I am genuinely interested in how he does. The thing is, I'm not really sure how to say this any other way, but most of the news coming out of Bloomington is negative. So it is natural for some of these responses. I mean, we had heard "wait until 2011 and 2012" and Crean will get some local talent. He still may, but it is interesting that he is an underdog on a lot of these instate guys. Might say more about the program than Crean.
But if there is some genuine facts reported about Crean, and those facts are not positive, then people get accused of Crean bashing. As long as the focus stays on basketball, I think these are good threads, but they get derailed for the reasons you pointed out MUSF.
I agree that this is a good topic.
So, let me contribute to the actual topic and not just the derailing.
I am starting to think that Crean is not as good of a coach as I thought he was. He is in a very difficult position over there in Bloomington and I think he deserves some more time, but it is looking more and more like he may not have the chops for that job.
I still think Crean is probably an above average to good college bball coach but I am starting to doubt that he could ever be a great coach. I think we probably saw his ceiling with the three amigo teams at MU. Which is still pretty darn good but it appears that he caught lightning in a bottle with the Final Four run.
I really appreciate what Crean did for MU and I will always be grateful that he helped bring MU back to national prominence. That said, I am now glad that he and we have moved on.
I think the instate recruits are important to Indiana alums. It pains them to see the Greg Oden's of the world head out of the state. I can't imagine anyone is happy that Marquis Teague, a top point guard out of Indianapolis, is going to play for John Calipari.
Crean needs a late comeback on the 2011 recruits and then the 2012 recruits would be his last stand with the fanbase, even if the IU administration keeps patience.
Quote from: KipsBayEagle on July 20, 2010, 01:21:06 PM
Zeller is suppose to be a unc lock as well.
Is that Luke Zeller's brother?
Quote from: MUSF on July 23, 2010, 10:34:29 AM
I agree that this is a good topic.
So, let me contribute to the actual topic and not just the derailing.
I am starting to think that Crean is not as good of a coach as I thought he was. He is in a very difficult position over there in Bloomington and I think he deserves some more time, but it is looking more and more like he may not have the chops for that job.
I think its probably far too early to say.
Its really hard to think of a similar rebuilding situation--IU had sunk about as far as a team could. Depleted roster, scandal, possible NCAA penalties, etc.
Compare to Jay Wright when he came on board at Villanova. VU was 18-13 under Steve Lappas the year before, but it STILL took Wright 4 years to get back to the NCAA tournament. He signed a great first class--but got VU hit with sanctions for recruiting violations. If Crean cut corners like Wright, it could get IU hit with the death penalty.
If we compare to the rebuilding job O'Neill had to do after Dukiet, O'Neill was only 11-18 his second year--and that was playing against far easier competition. It took O'Neill 4 years to get back to the NCAA--five to the Sweet 16.
Quote from: Marquette84 on July 24, 2010, 03:34:01 PM
I think its probably far too early to say.
Its really hard to think of a similar rebuilding situation--IU had sunk about as far as a team could. Depleted roster, scandal, possible NCAA penalties, etc.
Compare to Jay Wright when he came on board at Villanova. VU was 18-13 under Steve Lappas the year before, but it STILL took Wright 4 years to get back to the NCAA tournament. He signed a great first class--but got VU hit with sanctions for recruiting violations. If Crean cut corners like Wright, it could get IU hit with the death penalty.
If we compare to the rebuilding job O'Neill had to do after Dukiet, O'Neill was only 11-18 his second year--and that was playing against far easier competition. It took O'Neill 4 years to get back to the NCAA--five to the Sweet 16.
Super Crean Defender to the rescue!!
Quote from: Marquette84 on July 24, 2010, 03:34:01 PM
I think its probably far too early to say.
Its really hard to think of a similar rebuilding situation--IU had sunk about as far as a team could. Depleted roster, scandal, possible NCAA penalties, etc.
Compare to Jay Wright when he came on board at Villanova. VU was 18-13 under Steve Lappas the year before, but it STILL took Wright 4 years to get back to the NCAA tournament. He signed a great first class--but got VU hit with sanctions for recruiting violations. If Crean cut corners like Wright, it could get IU hit with the death penalty.
If we compare to the rebuilding job O'Neill had to do after Dukiet, O'Neill was only 11-18 his second year--and that was playing against far easier competition. It took O'Neill 4 years to get back to the NCAA--five to the Sweet 16.
Well, if recruiting is any indication to what the future holds, it doesn't look good for IU. And why are walk-ons starting in Crean's second year? Crean might turn things around but as mentioned before, the competition is getting tougher on the recruiting trail and in the conference. Based on the fact that his team at IU is beginning to look like his MU teams (short, guard heavy, and one good class every four years) and his competition is recruiting better than IU, I would not be feeling confident if I were an IU fan.
Quote from: Ners on July 24, 2010, 04:44:22 PM
Super Crean Defender to the rescue!!
See what I mean? Every post of yours reflects your Buzz Fanboi/Crean Hater attitude.
Why don't you try responding with something intelligent, thoughtful or relevant, for a change.
I like a good exchange of ideas. You might even enjoy it as well if you dropped the paranoid pretense that "everyone is out go get Buzz".
Try this, for example:
Quote from: ErickJD08 on July 24, 2010, 05:01:18 PM
Well, if recruiting is any indication to what the future holds, it doesn't look good for IU. And why are walk-ons starting in Crean's second year? Crean might turn things around but as mentioned before, the competition is getting tougher on the recruiting trail and in the conference. Based on the fact that his team at IU is beginning to look like his MU teams (short, guard heavy, and one good class every four years) and his competition is recruiting better than IU, I would not be feeling confident if I were an IU fan.
That may be true--but if one looks through history, there aren't many examples of coaches who have brought teams back from the depths to which IU sunk.
No, it doesn't look good for IU right now. It didn't look good under Mike Davis. It looked even worse under Sampson. To have expected a turnaround within two years is not a reasonable expectation.
As far as competition
getting tougher, I really don't think that's true. Indiana has always been known as a hotbed of talent--and its been very hotly contested since the day Knight left. Of the 35 top 100 RSCI players from Indiana the decade before Crean, IU landed just five. So I think the recruiting fields were pretty competitive before Crean got there.
2008:
18 Zellar North Carolina
54 Garcia Memphis
2007:
3 Gordon - Indiana
23 Moore - Purdue
41 Martin - Purdue
47Johnson - Purdue
58 Teague - Wake Forest
62 Hummel - Purdue
2006:
#1 Oden - Ohio State
#21 Conley - Ohio State
#66 Tucker - Virginia
#78 Johnson - Tennesse
#83 Harangody - Notre Dame
2005:
#1 McRoberts - Duke
#34 Zellar - Notre Dame
#40 James - Marquette
2004:
30 Vaden: - Indiana
76 Ratliff - Indiana
93 Hardy - Indiana
2003
72: Harris - Valpo
92: Mayes: Ohio State
2002:
9 - May - UNC
91 Kiefer - Purdue
95 Finn - Xavier
2001
34 - Thomas - Notre Dame
85 - Danelius - Wake Forest
2000:
1 Randolph - MSU
9 Jeffries - Indiana
51 Buscher - Purdue
1999:
18 Gardner - Arizona
75 Wright - Villanova
82 Baker - San Jose State
87 Stewart - Kentucky (died before playing)
1998
64 Smith - Villanova
81 Duany - Syracuse
Quote from: Marquette84 on July 24, 2010, 07:29:52 PM
No, it doesn't look good for IU right now. It didn't look good under Mike Davis. It looked even worse under Sampson. To have expected a turnaround within two years is not a reasonable expectation.
As far as competition getting tougher, I really don't think that's true. Indiana has always been known as a hotbed of talent--and its been very hotly contested since the day Knight left. Of the 35 top 100 RSCI players from Indiana the decade before Crean, IU landed just five. So I think the recruiting fields were pretty competitive before Crean got there.
2008:
18 Zellar North Carolina
54 Garcia Memphis
2007:
3 Gordon - Indiana
23 Moore - Purdue
41 Martin - Purdue
47Johnson - Purdue
58 Teague - Wake Forest
62 Hummel - Purdue
2006:
#1 Oden - Ohio State
#21 Conley - Ohio State
#66 Tucker - Virginia
#78 Johnson - Tennesse
#83 Harangody - Notre Dame
2005:
#1 McRoberts - Duke
#34 Zellar - Notre Dame
#40 James - Marquette
2004:
30 Vaden: - Indiana
76 Ratliff - Indiana
93 Hardy - Indiana
2003
72: Harris - Valpo
92: Mayes: Ohio State
2002:
9 - May - UNC
91 Kiefer - Purdue
95 Finn - Xavier
2001
34 - Thomas - Notre Dame
85 - Danelius - Wake Forest
2000:
1 Randolph - MSU
9 Jeffries - Indiana
51 Buscher - Purdue
1999:
18 Gardner - Arizona
75 Wright - Villanova
82 Baker - San Jose State
87 Stewart - Kentucky (died before playing)
1998
64 Smith - Villanova
81 Duany - Syracuse
Good point on the recruits in Indiana. Thanks for putting that together. It was nice to see Marquette get one in D James.
Quote from: Marquette84 on July 24, 2010, 07:29:52 PM
See what I mean? Every post of yours reflects your Buzz Fanboi/Crean Hater attitude.
Why don't you try responding with something intelligent, thoughtful or relevant, for a change.
I like a good exchange of ideas. You might even enjoy it as well if you dropped the paranoid pretense that "everyone is out go get Buzz".
Try this, for example:
That may be true--but if one looks through history, there aren't many examples of coaches who have brought teams back from the depths to which IU sunk.
No, it doesn't look good for IU right now. It didn't look good under Mike Davis. It looked even worse under Sampson. To have expected a turnaround within two years is not a reasonable expectation.
As far as competition getting tougher, I really don't think that's true. Indiana has always been known as a hotbed of talent--and its been very hotly contested since the day Knight left. Of the 35 top 100 RSCI players from Indiana the decade before Crean, IU landed just five. So I think the recruiting fields were pretty competitive before Crean got there.
2008:
18 Zellar North Carolina
54 Garcia Memphis
2007:
3 Gordon - Indiana
23 Moore - Purdue
41 Martin - Purdue
47Johnson - Purdue
58 Teague - Wake Forest
62 Hummel - Purdue
2006:
#1 Oden - Ohio State
#21 Conley - Ohio State
#66 Tucker - Virginia
#78 Johnson - Tennesse
#83 Harangody - Notre Dame
2005:
#1 McRoberts - Duke
#34 Zellar - Notre Dame
#40 James - Marquette
2004:
30 Vaden: - Indiana
76 Ratliff - Indiana
93 Hardy - Indiana
2003
72: Harris - Valpo
92: Mayes: Ohio State
2002:
9 - May - UNC
91 Kiefer - Purdue
95 Finn - Xavier
2001
34 - Thomas - Notre Dame
85 - Danelius - Wake Forest
2000:
1 Randolph - MSU
9 Jeffries - Indiana
51 Buscher - Purdue
1999:
18 Gardner - Arizona
75 Wright - Villanova
82 Baker - San Jose State
87 Stewart - Kentucky (died before playing)
1998
64 Smith - Villanova
81 Duany - Syracuse
Knight was still there in 98 and 99 so it's actually 5 out of 29. Davis, pretty much considered a colossal failure at IU, was either 1 for 5 or 0 for 4 on top 10 in state prospects depending on whether he or Knight recruited Jeffries. Sampson was 1 for 1 (Gordon) and had IU in the top 10 (maybe the top 5) when all hell broke loose (22-4, 11-2 in conference when fired - and I think they lost maybe 2 of their last 3 as the controversy swirled).
So far Crean's recruiting results resemble those of Davis more than Sampson. Something tells me bringing IU back to the Mike Davis era won't be considered a success by the Indiana faithful.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on July 24, 2010, 08:41:08 PM
Knight was still there in 98 and 99 so it's actually 5 out of 29. Davis, pretty much considered a colossal failure at IU, was either 1 for 5 or 0 for 4 on top 10 in state prospects depending on whether he or Knight recruited Jeffries. Sampson was 1 for 1 (Gordon) and had IU in the top 10 (maybe the top 5) when all hell broke loose (22-4, 11-2 in conference when fired - and I think they lost maybe 2 of their last 3 as the controversy swirled).
So far Crean's recruiting results resemble those of Davis more than Sampson. Something tells me bringing IU back to the Mike Davis era won't be considered a success by the Indiana faithful.
No, but I think they realize that on the day they brought in Crean, even retuning to the Davis level of success would be a huge challenge.
I think we'd agree that the IU faithful would like to be at the level they were under Sampson--however they need to get there without resorting to Sampson's tactics.
Quote from: Marquette84 on July 25, 2010, 02:44:21 PM
No, but I think they realize that on the day they brought in Crean, even retuning to the Davis level of success would be a huge challenge.
I think we'd agree that the IU faithful would like to be at the level they were under Sampson--however they need to get there without resorting to Sampson's tactics.
they'll also need a new coach ;D
Quote from: Marquette84 on July 25, 2010, 02:44:21 PM
No, but I think they realize that on the day they brought in Crean, even retuning to the Davis level of success would be a huge challenge.
I think we'd agree that the IU faithful would like to be at the level they were under Sampson--however they need to get there without resorting to Sampson's tactics.
I think IU returns to the Davis "level of success" regardless of who their coach is. It's basically a baseline for a program like theirs. The Sampson level will be a challenge, though.
Quote from: Marquette84 on July 24, 2010, 03:34:01 PM
I think its probably far too early to say.
Once again Joanie lays out the case in blind support of her man. What insight! We must all be so wrong about Tommy!