MUScoop

I don't know how much this will mean for Marquette, but it sure will be fun as a Marquette fan to watch DWade be in at least the East finals every year. The Heat are perfectly positioned to become the next global NBA franchise, joining the Lakers, Celtics, and (maybe) the Bulls. That a famous Marquette star will be at worst 1a on that team can only be a positive for Marquette. Im glad we will be seeing DWade in more big games than recent years, and that casual fans will be reminded what an amazing, exciting player he is.

I suppose, but I think the Heat might also be the most hated team in the NBA after this.  It's going to look especially bad for them if they don't win a championship or two, and they better get a great spot-up shooter, a point guard and a good interior defender/rebounder to round out the roster if they want to do that.

I am not at all convinced that this is going to work out for the Heat they way they think it is.  I'm not convinced they will win a ring.  Maybe wishful thinking as a spurned Cavs fan, and I may well eat these words.

Outside of the top 3, that roster is awful.

Quote from: StillAWarrior on July 09, 2010, 07:36:49 AM
I am not at all convinced that this is going to work out for the Heat they way they think it is.  I'm not convinced they will win a ring.  Maybe wishful thinking as a spurned Cavs fan, and I may well eat these words.

Meh, Lebron gave you guys 7 years.  That's more than any Ohio team deserves from a great player. 

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 09, 2010, 07:47:22 AM
Outside of the top 3, that roster is awful.
[/quote]

What roster???    Officially the entire roster at this moment is Mario Chalmers; and DWade if he's signed the paperwork.

This will be fun to watch.  From an MU perspective, DWade will get a good share of the praise when they win but James will take almost all of the heat if they lose.  Hopefully we can get some good Marquette mentions, especially in games against Doc.  Very, very beatable team tho.

Quote from: The Man in Gold on July 09, 2010, 07:56:25 AM

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 09, 2010, 07:47:22 AM
Outside of the top 3, that roster is awful.
[/quote]

What roster???    Officially the entire roster at this moment is Mario Chalmers; and DWade if he's signed the paperwork.

Yeah, they'll have 4 guys under contract....but I'll take those 4 over any other 4 in the league.

Maybe Deiner and Novak will end up on the squad, they need minimum guys who can shoot.

Diener can't shoot.  His career NBA FG% is under 40.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 09, 2010, 08:22:08 AM
Diener can't shoot.  His career NBA FG% is under 40.

And his career 3P% would have been in the neighborhood of 85th best in the league last year.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 09, 2010, 08:22:08 AM
Diener can't shoot.  His career NBA FG% is under 40.

There are a TON of players in the NBA who'd see their FG% increase dramatically if they were taking primarily wide-open shots. Just ask Steve Kerr.

Quote from: CTWarrior on July 09, 2010, 07:32:39 AM
I suppose, but I think the Heat might also be the most hated team in the NBA after this.  It's going to look especially bad for them if they don't win a championship or two, and they better get a great spot-up shooter, a point guard and a good interior defender/rebounder to round out the roster if they want to do that.

Looks like they got Mike Miller for that.
From what they are saying down here, they can resign Joel Anthony for the interior defender, rebounder. Chalmers is a decent point gaurd.
If the draft picks pan out, they will be ok. If not....well, do they get another mid level exception next year?

Quote from: pbiflyer on July 09, 2010, 08:37:14 AM
Looks like they got Mike Miller for that.
From what they are saying down here, they can resign Joel Anthony for the interior defender, rebounder. Chalmers is a decent point gaurd.
If the draft picks pan out, they will be ok. If not....well, do they get another mid level exception next year?

I believe they can re-sign Haslem as well. He's a very good spot-up shooter from 15-18 feet.

Plenty of open looks should raise any role players shooting percentage.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 09, 2010, 08:40:10 AM
I believe they can re-sign Haslem as well. He's a very good spot-up shooter from 15-18 feet.

With what money? He made $7 million last year, and there's a lockout coming next summer.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 09, 2010, 08:29:57 AM
There are a TON of players in the NBA who'd see their FG% increase dramatically if they were taking primarily wide-open shots. Just ask Steve Kerr.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/steve_kerr/index.html

Kerr did not see his percentage increase in his years with Michael, Scottie, Robinson, and Duncan.  His best year was the 95 Bulls when MJ only played 20% of the games.  He also shot a very high percentage in Clevelanded  before getting to the championship teams he played on.

There is a HUGE misperception about role players.  They do matter.  People will understand this next May when the Heat get bounced in the Eastern playoffs.

Heat are not going to be able to find skilled players like Kerr, Longley, Wennington, Harper, etc.  They will have the Big 3, Mike Miller maybe, and that is it.  They have four skilled wingplayers.  They need more years of stacking up midlevel players.  They will eventually win it, but not until they get their midlevels and draft picks in.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 09, 2010, 08:29:57 AM
There are a TON of players in the NBA who'd see their FG% increase dramatically if they were taking primarily wide-open shots. Just ask Steve Kerr.

I agree.  But Travis Diener simply isn't a good shooter.  Love the guy, but he's never been a consistent enough outside shooter.

Steve Kerr was on some bad teams, but only finished below with a below 40% FG percentage once in a 17 year career.  And he was on some bad teams during that career.

Quote from: esotericmindguy on July 09, 2010, 08:10:35 AM
Yeah, they'll have 4 guys under contract....but I'll take those 4 over any other 4 in the league.

Maybe Deiner and Novak will end up on the squad, they need minimum guys who can shoot.

You'd take those four over any four in the league? Really? I'd much sooner have, say, Chris Paul at the point than Mario Chalmers, or from a long-term perspective, Derrick Rose ;)

I agree with the Heat starting like gangbusters and then coming back to reality. Especially since there's really no one left to play the center position. I expect Bosh will be forced to the five, which will leave them woefully undermanned up front. And when the big three need rest, teams will have time to come back on them.

Read an article about the best threesomes the other day, it ranked these three around 4th or 5th in recent NBA history, and noted that of the top threesomes, only the Jordan Bulls managed to win any titles. I think the Heat have plenty of title potential, but I don't think they'll be able to get past the Celtics, Magic, or Lakers yet without a more complete roster.

But apparently, Vegas likes the Heat...

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/07/08/vegas-heat-the-favorite-for-nba-title/?ncid=txtlnkusspor00000002

Quote from: brewcity77 on July 09, 2010, 08:46:26 AM


Read an article about the best threesomes the other day, it ranked these three around 4th or 5th in recent NBA history, and noted that of the top threesomes, only the Jordan Bulls managed to win any titles.

Magic, Worthy, and Kareem did not make the list?  I always considered them the best threesome of all time.  Those two Bulls threepeat teams are two of the better teams of all time, but isolating 3 players I would put the 3 Lakers players in the 80s up there.  The new Heat trio cannot match Magic, Worthy, and Kareem because Chris Bosh is sooooo overrated. 

Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 09, 2010, 08:44:09 AM

There is a HUGE misperception about role players.  They do matter.  People will understand this next May when the Heat get bounced in the Eastern playoffs.

If they make the playoffs.  Wade's never been healthy for three seasons in a row in the NBA.

Quote from: brewcity77 on July 09, 2010, 08:46:26 AM
But apparently, Vegas likes the Heat...

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/07/08/vegas-heat-the-favorite-for-nba-title/?ncid=txtlnkusspor00000002

No, Vegas likes minimizing risk.

This will be a great Christmas day game with the Lakers but I don't know if they have enough to get out of the East. thye still have to get by Boston and Orlando.

Quote from: brewcity77 on July 09, 2010, 08:46:26 AM
You'd take those four over any four in the league? Really? I'd much sooner have, say, Chris Paul at the point than Mario Chalmers, or from a long-term perspective, Derrick Rose ;)

I agree with the Heat starting like gangbusters and then coming back to reality.

Even during games...they'll win a lot of first quarters, but not a lot of second quarters.

Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 09, 2010, 08:51:45 AM
Magic, Worthy, and Kareem did not make the list?  I always considered them the best threesome of all time.  Those two Bulls threepeat teams are two of the better teams of all time, but isolating 3 players I would put the 3 Lakers players in the 80s up there.  The new Heat trio cannot match Magic, Worthy, and Kareem because Chris Bosh is sooooo overrated. 

They didn't, but as I think of it, it may have been the past 25 years, or even 20. And of course, now that I want to find it, I can't locate it anywhere  ?-(

Quote from: elephantraker on July 09, 2010, 08:55:54 AM
This will be a great Christmas day game with the Lakers but I don't know if they have enough to get out of the East. thye still have to get by Boston and Orlando.

And Chicago and Milwaukee.  And they have to survive at least one regular season trip to Cleveland.

Quote from: Brewtown Andy on July 09, 2010, 09:09:00 AM
And Chicago and Milwaukee.  And they have to survive at least one regular season trip to Cleveland.

It is going to be tough for the Heat.  You'd have to guess that Orlando and Miami get the top two records.  In the NBA, your division matters so one team will get the one seed and the other will get the 4 seed.  So, Orlando coached by Stan Van Gundy who Riley pushed out and whose best player, Dwight Howard, will expose the Miami frontline, will meet in the second round.  I don't see the Heat getting past the second round.

Quote from: Brewtown Andy on July 09, 2010, 08:43:54 AM
With what money? He made $7 million last year, and there's a lockout coming next summer.

It's a soft cap so I believe he can re-sign even if it puts them over. I've been wrong before though...like with my Steve Kerr comment on this thread  ;)

I agree that a title might not come in year 1, but as somebody else explained in a previous thread, the Miami roster won't look this depleted for very long. Each year they get another mid-level exception and first round draft pick, and you know there will be lots of solid veterans (like Mike Miller--great signing) who have already made a lot of money who will be clamoring to play with these guys, even if it means a slight paycut.

Add in a few solid guys per year and if these guys learn a way to play together, this could be an overwhelmingly dominant team by year 3.

And all this hatred will soon pass. Very few people hated LeBron before last night, and the only ones who will continue to do so will be bitter Cavs fans. DWade was already one of the most well-liked players in the NBA, and this won't change that at all. And not enough people know anything about Chris Bosh to dislike him. IF they find a way to make it work, this team will be too fun to hate. Maybe they will be the team we love to hate, but this isn't an unlikable group of players by any means.

Quote from: MarkCharles on July 09, 2010, 10:17:46 AM
And all this hatred will soon pass. Very few people hated LeBron before last night, and the only ones who will continue to do so will be bitter Cavs fans. DWade was already one of the most well-liked players in the NBA, and this won't change that at all. And not enough people know anything about Chris Bosh to dislike him. IF they find a way to make it work, this team will be too fun to hate. Maybe they will be the team we love to hate, but this isn't an unlikable group of players by any means.

I watched game 6 of the Bos/Cle series in the middle of Iowa.  I was not expecting it necessarily in Iowa, but people were going crazy roooting against Lebron.  No one cared about the Celtics.  It was really all directed at Lebron losing.  He quit on his team.  When he had a bad game, his elbow was bad.  When he had a good game, no mention of the elbow.  I was shocked at the hate I was hearing for him.

He should have never embraced "the King" nickname.  It was not his falut that people called him that, but he let himself get hyped up before winning. 

The dancing during the regular season thing and then getting destroyed in the playoffs.  Plenty of reasons not to like James.'s

Don't forget how much people hated Pat Riley's teams in the 1990s.  They may reproduce some of that too.

I think the hatred for Lebron was starting to brew in the playoffs, and this tipped the pot.  Lebron is going to be despised this year I think.  People may forget eventually, though, but they won't get the cheers the Bulls got in the 90s in opposing stadiums. 

It is good for MU that "Lebron could never get it done without Wade."   I don't think they will win more than 2 in the next 7 years, but Wade gets into the Kobe, Magic type of conversation if they do win a few.  Not James.

A key thing is that no one on the Heat have signed a contract yet also. I'm sure it won't be a huge pay cut, but if they aren't taking max money, then there will be more money to use than people originally thought. Also, I haven't heard, but is there still the possibility of a sign and trade with Bosh? That could free up some more money too I think.

Also, I know plenty of people who have hated LeBron long before this happened. I think a lot of it started around the time when all this speculation started to happen 2 years ago as to where LeBron will go.

Quote from: cheebs09 on July 09, 2010, 10:34:21 AM
A key thing is that no one on the Heat have signed a contract yet also. I'm sure it won't be a huge pay cut, but if they aren't taking max money, then there will be more money to use than people originally thought. Also, I haven't heard, but is there still the possibility of a sign and trade with Bosh? That could free up some more money too I think.

How low are they going to go? $12M? The cap's only $58M, Chalmers is getting over a million, Mike Miller's contract is looking at another $6M, the 3 2nd round picks are going to knock out another $1.5M. That's about $45M, and they still need 4 more players.  And with the lockout looming, guys aren't going to want to sign cheap deals.

Quote from: Brewtown Andy on July 09, 2010, 10:44:38 AM
How low are they going to go? $12M? The cap's only $58M, Chalmers is getting over a million, Mike Miller's contract is looking at another $6M, the 3 2nd round picks are going to knock out another $1.5M. That's about $45M, and they still need 4 more players.  And with the lockout looming, guys aren't going to want to sign cheap deals.

Miller's deal is supposedly $30 million for 5 years.  It won't be $6 million/year.  It will be 8% raises per year so starts off lower.  Beasley was making around $5 million, so the Miller deal may actually save them money. 

Toronto was supposedly still talking about doing that sign and trade for a first roung pick and a trade exception so Bosh can get his guaranteed sixth year at the 10% raise.  Toronto might as well.

These guys can start at $16.6.  Wade will get the 6  years guaranteed and so may Bosh.  James will only get 5 years.  He is leaving the 6th year on the table at Cleveland.  Not much of a sacrifice since he can still sign a new deal later.  He is not giving up $30 million.

If these guys take say, $15 million per year to start, the media better not make them out to be  martyrs.  With Beasley out and Miller in, they may be able to sign max deals actually. 

all they need is a few banger centers and a good shooter, and this 'close' east race everyones talking about, won't be close at all.

 

QuoteDwight Howard, will expose the Miami frontline, will meet in the second round.  I don't see the Heat getting past the second round.

With the slashing to the basket that Wade and LBJ will do against the Magic I don't see Howard lasting long with all the fouls he picks up. He needs to learn to move his feet. The scary thing is, is that once Howard gets it he will dominate.

HoopsMalone
"When he had a bad game, his elbow was bad.  When he had a good game, no mention of the elbow."
Its not Lebron's fault that he gets more media attention than he deserves. And I'll admit if I am mistaken on this, but I never heard one word about the elbow from LeBron's mouth using it as an excuse. That was all ESPN. Hard to blame him for that. In everything I heard him say directly, he tried to avoid using the elbow as an excuse. I agree that he quit during game 6, and I am mush less of a LeBron fan because of that, but that had nothing to do with the outcome of that game. It was already over. Its crazy how a guy can "quit" in a game and still end up with 38, 19, and 9.

"He should have never embraced "the King" nickname.  It was not his falut that people called him that, but he let himself get hyped up before winning." agreed

"The dancing during the regular season thing and then getting destroyed in the playoffs.  Plenty of reasons not to like James.'s" Is the dancing, and, you know, having fun that LeBron takes part in during the regular season that big of a problem? Hes an entertainer, and I am glad he realizes that. His joking around was not the reason his teams lost. I'll take watching LeBron have fun and still play great over Kobe forcing that fake, manufactured, "look at me I'm like Jordan" chin-out scowl any day.

"People may forget eventually, though, but they won't get the cheers the Bulls got in the 90s in opposing stadiums."  If you want to compare him to MJ, remember that MJ didn't get his first title until he was 28. LeBron is 25. And lway more so than LeBron, Jordan was widely disliked by fans and other players when he came into the league because of his cockyness and entitled attitude.

LeBron will be in any discussion of all time great if he wins 3 titles. Wade will never be considered a top10 all time guy, whereas LeBron could easily. As much as I love DWade, he is simply not as good as LeBron.

Becoming "hated" might be the best thing that could happen to James.  It could give him the edge / killer instinct he seems to have been missing.

Quote from: MarkCharles on July 09, 2010, 01:24:04 PM
HoopsMalone
"When he had a bad game, his elbow was bad.  When he had a good game, no mention of the elbow."
Its not Lebron's fault that he gets more media attention than he deserves. And I'll admit if I am mistaken on this, but I never heard one word about the elbow from LeBron's mouth using it as an excuse. That was all ESPN. Hard to blame him for that. In everything I heard him say directly, he tried to avoid using the elbow as an excuse. I agree that he quit during game 6, and I am mush less of a LeBron fan because of that, but that had nothing to do with the outcome of that game. It was already over. Its crazy how a guy can "quit" in a game and still end up with 38, 19, and 9.

"He should have never embraced "the King" nickname.  It was not his falut that people called him that, but he let himself get hyped up before winning." agreed

"The dancing during the regular season thing and then getting destroyed in the playoffs.  Plenty of reasons not to like James.'s" Is the dancing, and, you know, having fun that LeBron takes part in during the regular season that big of a problem? Hes an entertainer, and I am glad he realizes that. His joking around was not the reason his teams lost. I'll take watching LeBron have fun and still play great over Kobe forcing that fake, manufactured, "look at me I'm like Jordan" chin-out scowl any day.

"People may forget eventually, though, but they won't get the cheers the Bulls got in the 90s in opposing stadiums."  If you want to compare him to MJ, remember that MJ didn't get his first title until he was 28. LeBron is 25. And lway more so than LeBron, Jordan was widely disliked by fans and other players when he came into the league because of his cockyness and entitled attitude.

LeBron will be in any discussion of all time great if he wins 3 titles. Wade will never be considered a top10 all time guy, whereas LeBron could easily. As much as I love DWade, he is simply not as good as LeBron.

I was responding to someone who said that people were not hating on Lebron until now.  I was saying that even people in Iowa (which I consider random, maybe its not) were already hating James before the free agent thing.

I agree that James did not have that bad of games at the end.  I did say part of it is not his fault.  It is the media.  A lot of people resent him because he hasn't done anything and gets annointed while Kobe and Wade are winning rings.

I don't like that James dances during regular season games that don't matter personally.  That is my opinion.  It is disrespectful to other teams and to the game.  You are free to disagree.  Even if he had 10 rings I still would not like it.  Not having any rings exaggerates it.  

I was not comparing him to Jordan.  Kobe is the only one who should be.  I was saying that this Heat team is not going to be the rockstar team like the Bulls were.  They are going to get booed.  I have no idea if Michael got booed as a rookie.  You might be right.  I know he got frozen out (conspiracy theory) in the all-star game and people said a scoring champion guard could not win because he hogs the ball, but I don't know that MJ ever had the level of hatred that James is getting now.  

It is probably not fair to James that it got to this level, but James handled this poorly.  He works hard and doesnt get into trouble so he is not a bad guy in the sense that he isnt a good role model like other players.  

Can you imagine if Jordan signed with LA, Boston, or Detroit in 1990?  It would not have been the same.  It would have admitted that everything people were saying about him is true:  can't get it done, scoring champ can't win it, MJ doesn't make others better.  Free agency was not an option, but MJ proved everyone wrong.  James does not have the opportunity to do that.  

But, Michael is not a good comparison for James anymore.  Joining the Heat basically ruins that.  MJ came up and took a lottery team to 6 rings, and that angle will always be there in any argument.  It is not fair to anyone actually to be compared to Jordan.  He does not need to be better than Jordan or Bird or Kobe to be a great player.  

I don't know if Jordan ever had this type of negative press.  James will never get the adoration MJ had.  That is an impossible standard anyway.

Quote from: MUSF on July 09, 2010, 01:33:01 PM
Becoming "hated" might be the best thing that could happen to James.  It could give him the edge / killer instinct he seems to have been missing.

Good point. Agreed. Kinda like how Kobe revels in it now...always uses it as motivation.

hoopsmalone

Ok, I see where you are coming from. I agree that the way MJ elevated a meaningless organization is a bit of a trump card in the all-time greats debate. But I don't think if he winds up with 4-5 rings, he should be downgraded for playing with DWade. MJ had a top50 all-time in Pippen, Kobe got 3 with Shaq, Bird won his on the greatest front line ever, Magic had Kareem, Scott, and Worthy, Russell had Cousy, etc. How LeBron plays on the way to those titles will determine his place among the greats.

I applaud LeBron for making the tough decision, even if it may look like the easy way out on paper. If you watched last night, you could see how difficult this was on him. If you were LeBron, would you have stayed in Cleveland? I don't think any rational man who wants more than anything to win titles would. Their roster was mediocre, old, and difficult to improve any time soon.
" James will never get the adoration MJ had." That is probably true, as there seems to be a huge amount of genuine resentment out there. But what exactly has LeBron ever done wrong? MJ is legitimately a jerk and doesn't seem very well liked (see: HOF induction speech... classless), has tons of vices,comes across as cold, etc. If people dislike the overexposure and brand marketing that LeBron is taking advantage of, they should remember that Jordan created that world.

Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 09, 2010, 01:47:59 PM
I was responding to someone who said that people were not hating on Lebron until now.  I was saying that even people in Iowa (which I consider random, maybe its not) were already hating James before the free agent thing.

I agree that James did not have that bad of games at the end.  I did say part of it is not his fault.  It is the media.  A lot of people resent him because he hasn't done anything and gets annointed while Kobe and Wade are winning rings.

I don't like that James dances during regular season games that don't matter personally.  That is my opinion.  It is disrespectful to other teams and to the game.  You are free to disagree.  Even if he had 10 rings I still would not like it.  Not having any rings exaggerates it.  

I was not comparing him to Jordan.  Kobe is the only one who should be.  I was saying that this Heat team is not going to be the rockstar team like the Bulls were.  They are going to get booed.  I have no idea if Michael got booed as a rookie.  You might be right.  I know he got frozen out (conspiracy theory) in the all-star game and people said a scoring champion guard could not win because he hogs the ball, but I don't know that MJ ever had the level of hatred that James is getting now.  

It is probably not fair to James that it got to this level, but James handled this poorly.  He works hard and doesnt get into trouble so he is not a bad guy in the sense that he isnt a good role model like other players.  

Can you imagine if Jordan signed with LA, Boston, or Detroit in 1990?  It would not have been the same.  It would have admitted that everything people were saying about him is true:  can't get it done, scoring champ can't win it, MJ doesn't make others better.  Free agency was not an option, but MJ proved everyone wrong.  James does not have the opportunity to do that.  

But, Michael is not a good comparison for James anymore.  Joining the Heat basically ruins that.  MJ came up and took a lottery team to 6 rings, and that angle will always be there in any argument.  It is not fair to anyone actually to be compared to Jordan.  He does not need to be better than Jordan or Bird or Kobe to be a great player.  

I don't know if Jordan ever had this type of negative press.  James will never get the adoration MJ had.  That is an impossible standard anyway.

I remember a while back there was some ESPN article/analysis/report on the question of who is closest to Jordan, in terms of player style. I remember they came  with some mathematical formula, and Wade was the closest. By a significant amount I believe.

Jordan wasnt the physical dominant force Lebron is, Ive never bought the idea that they're similar players. Kobe I get, Wade makes sense... Lebron is closer to Magic in terms of skills and ability. Ideally LeBron probably should have aimed to become the next Magic, not Jordan.

He will probably play Point Forward for the Heat, think he can average a triple double for a year?  Hasn't been done in while.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 09, 2010, 08:29:57 AM
There are a TON of players in the NBA who'd see their FG% increase dramatically if they were taking primarily wide-open shots. Just ask Steve Kerr.

So why wouldn't they just take one with an already good shooting percentage and hop it goes higher?

Quote from: MarkCharles on July 09, 2010, 02:03:15 PM
hoopsmalone

Ok, I see where you are coming from. I agree that the way MJ elevated a meaningless organization is a bit of a trump card in the all-time greats debate. But I don't think if he winds up with 4-5 rings, he should be downgraded for playing with DWade. MJ had a top50 all-time in Pippen, Kobe got 3 with Shaq, Bird won his on the greatest front line ever, Magic had Kareem, Scott, and Worthy, Russell had Cousy, etc. How LeBron plays on the way to those titles will determine his place among the greats.

I applaud LeBron for making the tough decision, even if it may look like the easy way out on paper. If you watched last night, you could see how difficult this was on him. If you were LeBron, would you have stayed in Cleveland? I don't think any rational man who wants more than anything to win titles would. Their roster was mediocre, old, and difficult to improve any time soon.
" James will never get the adoration MJ had." That is probably true, as there seems to be a huge amount of genuine resentment out there. But what exactly has LeBron ever done wrong? MJ is legitimately a jerk and doesn't seem very well liked (see: HOF induction speech... classless), has tons of vices,comes across as cold, etc. If people dislike the overexposure and brand marketing that LeBron is taking advantage of, they should remember that Jordan created that world.

Lebron could still be a great player for sure.  He doesn't need to surpass MJ, Magic, Larry, or Kobe to be considered great.  If he is Dr. J when it is all said and done, then fine.  

I think James' biggest error in Cleveland was the free agency looming.  That had to bring in old guys who cannot play anymore rather than building up a team with James like those other guys had.  If he had committed longer term and let a younger play come up with him, they would have been better off.  The biggest thing was out of his control:  losing Boozer.  All the other guys lifted up a franchise.  James is joining a guy who already did.  It is different I think.  It will take him out of the Kobe, MJ, Bill Russell convo, but there is nothing wrong with that.

I don't know if I would have left Cleveland considering that is where I was from.  He probably made a good choice.  I definitely think they will win at least one, maybe two titles.  I just think next year is unlikely and this is not a 5 ring thing there with 70 wins/season.  It was a fine choice, and proves he wants to win.  There is no argument there.  He chose help.  People will get over it.  Wade is the alpha dog, and James has to know that.  If he tries to be and they lose, then that will really, really hurt James' image.  

MJ was definitely choreographed as a great family guy.  It is disappointed that it was not true about him.  I think people in general are a little more suspicious of athletes after the steroids in baseball thing.  Remember, MJ was followed by Sosa and McGwire.  Now Tiger too.   Now all three of those guys were not who we thought they were.  And the "hate the game, not the player" thing regarding James and all of his ads is a fair point.  I would take those paydays in a heartbeat.  He should stop dancing and acknowledge that he hasn't won anything yet and he would end a lot of this resentment I think.  Lebron is a good role model though.  He might be like MJ or Tiger Woods for all we know.

I think these threads highlight why some people are put off by Lebron.

I feel like people are putting the burden on me and others to prove that James cannot win.  Whereas the people who are suspicious of James see him having the team with the best record for two years and being shown the door in the playoffs early both years.  He is so hyped. 

Great player, but we are really putting him with Jordan?   Should we really not question people putting him up with MJ while Duncan, Kobe, and Wade are winning titles?

I am just making an observation.  I enjoy discussing stuff with you all.

Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 09, 2010, 02:31:59 PM
I think these threads highlight why some people are put off by Lebron.

I feel like people are putting the burden on me and others to prove that James cannot win.  Whereas the people who are suspicious of James see him having the team with the best record for two years and being shown the door in the playoffs early both years.  He is so hyped. 

Great player, but we are really putting him with Jordan?   Should we really not question people putting him up with MJ while Duncan, Kobe, and Wade are winning titles?

I am just making an observation.  I enjoy discussing stuff with you all.

I think it is fair to say that he shouldn't be compared to some of the greats yet, but it is unfair to put Cleveland's losses in the playoffs on Lebron.

All of those Cavs teams had some significant flaws that didn't have anything to do with number 23.  The best record in the regular season isn't always the best indicator of post season success.  Especially when that record comes from the Eastern Conference.  How many of those Cavs teams did you really think would win the title?

Quote from: MUSF on July 09, 2010, 02:44:07 PM
I think it is fair to say that he shouldn't be compared to some of the greats yet, but it is unfair to put Cleveland's losses in the playoffs on Lebron.

All of those Cavs teams had some significant flaws that didn't have anything to do with number 23.  The best record in the regular season isn't always the best indicator of post season success.  Especially when that record comes from the Eastern Conference.  How many of those Cavs teams did you really think would win the title?

A lot of people were picking the Cavs at the start of these playoffs after landing Jamison.  People were celebrating them and now all of a sudden his teammates are not any good.  They were not a great team, but they could have won it this year.  Since they did not though, Shaq and Jamison may have been too old to roll the rice the dice on again.

Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 09, 2010, 02:50:50 PM
A lot of people were picking the Cavs at the start of these playoffs after landing Jamison.  People were celebrating them and now all of a sudden his teammates are not any good.  They were not a great team, but they could have won it this year.  Since they did not though, Shaq and Jamison may have been too old to roll the rice the dice on again.

Hindsight's 20/20 but I don't think there is any way that the Cavs could have beat the Lakers.  I don't think the Cavs could beat the Celtics in 7 games if the Celtics played to their ability.

That doesn't excuse Lebron and Cleveland's poor performance, but I don't think this years Cavs were ever a title team.

That said, I don't think Lebron will ever match MJ or Kobe in the killer instinct / competitor department.  That's not a knock on his ability but an observation of his personality.  He just doesn't have it in him.  I actually think he will take a somewhat secondary role to Wade on the Heat and that will ultimately prevent him from entering the Kobe / MJ discussion.

Quote from: MUSF on July 09, 2010, 03:02:27 PM
That said, I don't think Lebron will ever match MJ or Kobe in the killer instinct / competitor department.  That's not a knock on his ability but an observation of his personality.  He just doesn't have it in him.  I actually think he will take a somewhat secondary role to Wade on the Heat and that will ultimately prevent him from entering the Kobe / MJ discussion.

I think people kind of resent that.  People anointed him as the next coming and his personality does not live up to it.  That box with MJ's shoes with the note saying "Do you dare fill these shoes" or whatever does not fit him.  He is Dr. J.  A great talent, but not an assassin like these other guys. 

I think people were mad that they thought he was the next thing and he is not.  Cleveland thought that this was the guy who was finally going to do it, and he is not.  The media needs to let it go.  People were wrong about him.  O well.

At the end of the day, though, I don't think that the burden to prove whether or not Lebron can get it done should be on the people who are suspicious.  He was annointed and there arose an assumption that he was the man.  He never proved it.  The burden should be on the people who think that he is the next big thing to prove that.  People suspicious of him have a history of not getting it done in the playoffs to point to.  Not the other way around.  People should be suspicious of the guy who could not get it done.  We should not be anointing Miami or James.  Right now, he seems like more of a young Wilt or a young Dr. J.  Not a young MJ or Bill Russell. 

I actually would love to see him win 2 rings in Miami and then go back home and make amends.  Then he could really prove something.

Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 09, 2010, 03:13:28 PM
I think people kind of resent that.  People anointed him as the next coming and his personality does not live up to it.  That box with MJ's shoes with the note saying "Do you dare fill these shoes" or whatever does not fit him.  He is Dr. J.  A great talent, but not an assassin like these other guys. 

I think people were mad that they thought he was the next thing and he is not.  Cleveland thought that this was the guy who was finally going to do it, and he is not.  The media needs to let it go.  People were wrong about him.  O well.

At the end of the day, though, I don't think that the burden to prove whether or not Lebron can get it done should be on the people who are suspicious.  He was annointed and there arose an assumption that he was the man.  He never proved it.  The burden should be on the people who think that he is the next big thing to prove that.  People suspicious of him have a history of not getting it done in the playoffs to point to.  Not the other way around.  People should be suspicious of the guy who could not get it done.  We should not be anointing Miami or James.  Right now, he seems like more of a young Wilt or a young Dr. J.  Not a young MJ or Bill Russell. 

I actually would love to see him win 2 rings in Miami and then go back home and make amends.  Then he could really prove something.

I agree, for the most part.

I think we both have the same view of who Lebron is as a player.  I just don't think it is necessarily fair to evaluate him on the same criteria as MJ and Kobe.  Those guys were/are ruthless finishers that will always go for the kill, win or lose.  That isn't LBJ, yet many seem to view him as a failure or a disappointment because he isn't that guy. 

You say people should be suspicious of a guy who could not get it done.  There are 5 guys on the court at one time and 8 - 10 guys that play regularly.  Why is it about 1 guy not getting it done?  You, and others, seem to expect him to be MJ or Kobe and single handidly beat teams on the biggest stage.  Your disappointment is more a commentary on your expectations than Lebron's value or ability as a player.

Lebron will continue to be very successful and will go down as one of the greats.  One of the greats who needed his teammates to set him up for success.  He will join a list of Duncan, Malone, Erving, Garnett, etc.  That's still a pretty good list.

Quote from: MUSF on July 09, 2010, 03:34:31 PM
I agree, for the most part.

I think we both have the same view of who Lebron is as a player.  I just don't think it is necessarily fair to evaluate him on the same criteria as MJ and Kobe.  Those guys were/are ruthless finishers that will always go for the kill, win or lose.  That isn't LBJ,

That isn't LBJ *yet.*  When Michael was his age people were saying the same thing about him.  When Kobe was that age, he was considered petulant and spoiled, riding on Shaq's coattails.

LBJ still has a long history to be written.

Quote from: MUSF on July 09, 2010, 03:34:31 PM
I think we both have the same view of who Lebron is as a player.  I just don't think it is necessarily fair to evaluate him on the same criteria as MJ and Kobe.  Those guys were/are ruthless finishers that will always go for the kill, win or lose.  That isn't LBJ, yet many seem to view him as a failure or a disappointment because he isn't that guy.   

Well, he is a failure and disappointment, at least judging by the image and standards he worked very hard to create for himself.
Nobody made him revel in, and encourage, the MJ comaprisons.
Nobody made him get a tattoo proclaiming himself as "The Chosen 1".
Nobody made him star in a marketing campaign proclaiming "We are all witnesses" portraying him as some kind deity-like figure with whom  we are privileged to share the earth.

It seems the guy and his marketing team worked very hard to build this MJ-like aura around him, but now they don't want to live up to the expectations that come with it. To the contrary, he's fleeing those expectations. He's made a very public admission that he can't be the guy he marketed himself as. Maybe that doesn't make him a failure, but it does make him a disappointment.

Perhaps I'm being overly harsh on the guy, but it seems to me he took the coward's way out. He ran away from being "The Man" in favor of being "One of the guys."
In and of itself, that's not a bad thing. Unless you proclaim yourself "Chosen 1" and ask people to "Witness."

Pakuni, I think you have hit on something.  I think LBJ has done a lot of harm to the "Lebron Brand" that he has worked so hard to cultivate...and that could have some long-term harm on his endorsements and his income.  He's now not "The Next Michael."  Michael wouldn't follow anybody, anywhere.

Furthermore, while I don't necessarily blame him for wanting to leave Cleveland, the manner in which this unfolded was so amateurish.  This is what happens when you put your 25 year old friends in charge of your PR instead of listening to the advice of WWW, who would have been able to unfold this much more professionally.  I mean, according to his interview on the Dan Patrick Show, this entire thing was Jim Gray's idea.  He apparently brought it up to Maverick Carter during the playoffs.

Seriously it was completely comical.

Great thread title:
Here is the way I would rank "Team Trinity"

GOD== D Wade-- He rules, above all others,and  has already has been to NBA heaven...champ and finals MVP

JESUS=== LB James-- has spent his childhood years in Nazareth, and in the Cleveland wilderness, he hasnt yet brought any team to salvation, but ESPN clearly treats him as if they believe he is the Messiah.

HOLY GHOST== C Bosh-- in Toronto and in the playoffs-- few men have actually seen him, we're not sure what he can do...but he is automatically tied to the other two

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 09, 2010, 03:41:16 PM

That isn't LBJ *yet.*  When Michael was his age people were saying the same thing about him.  When Kobe was that age, he was considered petulant and spoiled, riding on Shaq's coattails.

LBJ still has a long history to be written.

I don't recall ever questioning Jordan's competitive instinct the way people have LeBron's.

As for Kobe ... yeah, he was petulant and spoiled. Still is, to a degree. But he couldn't wait to be rid of Shaq because he desperately wanted to be The Man, depserately wanted to prove he could - like Jordan - be in the central figure in a championship team.
James has done just the opposite. He's run away from being the central figure. Any title he wins with Miami will be, at best, shared three ways. Perhaps he doesn't care. Perhaps his happiness doesn't depend on that, which would make him somewhat of a rarity about athletes of his talents.
But history will judge him as a guy who couldn't put a team on his back and lead them to a title, and, IMO, that will keep him out of the discussion when people talk about the GOAT.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on July 09, 2010, 03:59:31 PM

Furthermore, while I don't necessarily blame him for wanting to leave Cleveland, the manner in which this unfolded was so amateurish.  This is what happens when you put your 25 year old friends in charge of your PR instead of listening to the advice of WWW, who would have been able to unfold this much more professionally.  I mean, according to his interview on the Dan Patrick Show, this entire thing was Jim Gray's idea.  He apparently brought it up to Maverick Carter during the playoffs.

Seriously it was completely comical.

This may be the truest statement in this thread. That was complete amateur hour and even people who didn't have a horse in this race felt it was a terribly display ... not only by James, but by ESPN.

I think that the Hope is to put LeBron on the hypothetical NBA Mount Rushmore alongside Jordan, Russell, Magic, and Bird. The problem with that is that I'm not even sure he'd make a Mount Rushmore of current players. Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan would be my locks in terms of career accomplishments. Then it gets murky...LBJ has a claim but would it be any stronger than that of 2-time MVP Steve Nash? He should, but at the end of the day hasn't accomplished much more.

And of course, he has now accepted the role as Robin to D-Wade's Batman, Gilligan to Wade's Skipper, or as it's known in NBA land, LeBron would rather emulate Pippen than Jordan. The Heat will never be "his" team, and for that reason it's hard to put him into an all-time great argument.

Marquette is a winner here.  MU may produce the leader of a team that ultimately wins a few titles and who other players flocked to to get it done.  Indiana wins too.

I think its really tough to put the "he hasn't won anything" label on a 25 year old. Sure, he hasn't won a title, but he single-handedly carried a team to the finals as a 22-year old (quick-name another player on the 2007 Cavs), has 2 MVPs, and has won a ton of games in the regular season and playoffs. His story is yet to be written.

He is a better player than any other other 25 year old ever, and anyone who would debate that is foolish. Jordan wasn't at his level yet, and was 3 years away from a title. Kobe may have had a couple rings, but he was the 2nd best player on that team by a mile, and had a lot more terrible playoff and finals games than anyone cares to remember. Kobe was also just as "bad" of a shooter as LeBron, and look where he is now. I have no doubt LeBron will continue to improve this "weakness" of his game, as he has every year. Nobody other than Jordan (in my lifetime, at least) has been able to take over a game in so many ways, and be so enthralling to watch at the same time. You may not like him, but LeBron is a force of nature.

HoopsMalone, you say LeBron isn't MJ or Kobe, that he should be fine being Dr. J. First off, he is way better than Dr. J, who only ever won 1 title, and that was alongside Moses Malone. Second, LeBron has no interest in being in that company. He is going for top 5 all time. Whether he gets there remains to be seen, but I don't think winning with Wade prevents him from being in the top 5.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 09, 2010, 04:01:25 PM
I don't recall ever questioning Jordan's competitive instinct the way people have LeBron's.

As for Kobe ... yeah, he was petulant and spoiled. Still is, to a degree. But he couldn't wait to be rid of Shaq because he desperately wanted to be The Man, depserately wanted to prove he could - like Jordan - be in the central figure in a championship team.
James has done just the opposite. He's run away from being the central figure. Any title he wins with Miami will be, at best, shared three ways. Perhaps he doesn't care. Perhaps his happiness doesn't depend on that, which would make him somewhat of a rarity about athletes of his talents.
But history will judge him as a guy who couldn't put a team on his back and lead them to a title, and, IMO, that will keep him out of the discussion when people talk about the GOAT.

LeBron really was in a no-win situation. "The Decision" sure didn't help, but still...

He stays in Cleveland, and people complain that hes scared of a new challenge, was only about $, etc.
He goes to Chi, he's just following in MJ's footsteps and can never live up to him.
He goes to NY, and hes not about winning, only cares about Brand LeBron.
He goes to Miami, and hes scared of a challenge on his own.

People that have an inborn dislike of LeBron (I'm not necessarily saying you, Pakuni) would have criticized him no matter what his decision, logic be damned. I have been hearing idiots on the radio saying this decision was about money. That is so wrong its not even funny. People just have a resentment for LeBron that I will never understand.

It was clear LeBron was not winning any time soon in Cleveland. That roster was not capable of winning a title. Nobody, Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Larry, won without a 2nd great player. Not one of those players in any of their primes would have won a title with the Cavs. Not only do they not have a true 2nd option, its debatable whether they had even a quality 3rd option. Mo Williams? Antawn Jamison? Not really.

Why wouldn't he want to get the best 2nd option he possibly could? Are people seriously faulting him for wanting to play with DWade???

If this group sticks long-term, LeBron will emerge as the true best player on that team. He might defer to Wade for a year or two, but LeBron is nowhere near his potential, and Wade is likely as good as he'll ever be, or very close. In about 3 years, Wade will not be the same player. If they win 4 or 5 rings, most of those will be when LeBron is far and away the best player on the team, and people will view him in a very different light than they do now.

Good discussion guys, nice to move beyond the same old tired Newbill story.

Quote from: MarkCharles on July 09, 2010, 04:40:17 PM
I think its really tough to put the "he hasn't won anything" label on a 25 year old. Sure, he hasn't won a title, but he single-handedly carried a team to the finals as a 22-year old (quick-name another player on the 2007 Cavs), has 2 MVPs, and has won a ton of games in the regular season and playoffs. His story is yet to be written.

He is a better player than any other other 25 year old ever, and anyone who would debate that is foolish. Jordan wasn't at his level yet, and was 3 years away from a title. Kobe may have had a couple rings, but he was the 2nd best player on that team by a mile, and had a lot more terrible playoff and finals games than anyone cares to remember. Kobe was also just as "bad" of a shooter as LeBron, and look where he is now. I have no doubt LeBron will continue to improve this "weakness" of his game, as he has every year. Nobody other than Jordan (in my lifetime, at least) has been able to take over a game in so many ways, and be so enthralling to watch at the same time. You may not like him, but LeBron is a force of nature.

HoopsMalone, you say LeBron isn't MJ or Kobe, that he should be fine being Dr. J. First off, he is way better than Dr. J, who only ever won 1 title, and that was alongside Moses Malone. Second, LeBron has no interest in being in that company. He is going for top 5 all time. Whether he gets there remains to be seen, but I don't think winning with Wade prevents him from being in the top 5.

Easy... Lebron is not the best 25 year old ever.  Lebron went to the finals when the east was as soft as I have ever seen.  DWade was hurt that year (Bulls swept them out of the playoffs...) and the Pistons were aging and not the same team (that one OT game was sick by Lebron though).  Not knocking him, but he is just flat out not the best 25 year old ever...  Literally is flat out not.  I don't know what criteria you could possibly use to think that?

Shaq has an equal resume by 25.  Took a team to the Finals and got his behind swept like James did.

Magic's game 6 in Philly is something James has never done.

Jordan at age 25?  In the 1988-89 season, Jordan averaged 32.5 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists.  Lebron was 29, 7, and 8.  The season before that he average 37.5 ppg.  I believe that was the year of "the shot" as a series clincher on the road. Jordan had already set the record for most points in a playoff game too.  Jordan also had the game winner in a college final and had that under his belt.  No one thought Jordan's teammates were any good either.  Jordan is statistically better and also had a developing team around him back then. He was losing to the Celtics and the Pistons of old.  Jordan was a Pippen migraine away from winning it in his 6th season too. 

If you like Lebron, fine.  If you think he CAN be in the top 5 ever, fine.  Maybe he can.  But Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, and Wade are all current players ahead of him.  Let alone the other players that came before him. 

Before the Decision, people were not necessarily Lebron haters.  People are just saying easy on the comparisons.  He has not done anything to deserve that.  He is a top 5 player in the NBA right now, but easy on the best 25 year old ever type of thing.  I think Dr. J is a nice comparison personally.  Puts up tons of stats, people always think he is going to do it, but could not win that title until he had Moses Malone.  Dr. J was sweet though and is not a bad guy to be compared to.

Quote from: MarkCharles on July 09, 2010, 04:59:17 PMWhy wouldn't he want to get the best 2nd option he possibly could? Are people seriously faulting him for wanting to play with DWade???

I don't think it's a matter of getting the best 2nd option, but rather LeBron accepting the role of the 2nd option himself. James said he doesn't want the pressure of being a 30 ppg scorer, of having to have a high shooting percentage. He's essentially saying "I'm okay with not being the Alpha Dog", and he's clearly accepting the secondary role by going to a city where D-Wade is already the established King. Miami will always be Wade's city and not LeBron's. Miami will see it as their title-winning hero Wade luring in a pair of ideal sidekicks to lift them back to the top. They will see Wade as #1 and LeBron as #2.

LeBron doesn't want to be remembered as the best ever, doesn't want to carry the mantle that guys like Magic, Michael, and Kobe carry gleefully, doesn't want to be a leader. He wants to be Scottie Pippen. I guess that's okay, but as an NBA fan it's a bit disappointing to not see this guy want to be THE MAN. He only wants to be the Brand.

Quote from: MarkCharles on July 09, 2010, 04:59:17 PM
It was clear LeBron was not winning any time soon in Cleveland. That roster was not capable of winning a title. Nobody, Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Larry, won without a 2nd great player. Not one of those players in any of their primes would have won a title with the Cavs. Not only do they not have a true 2nd option, its debatable whether they had even a quality 3rd option. Mo Williams? Antawn Jamison? Not really.

I'm not convinced James-Williams-Jamison is much (if any) of a lesser group than Duncan-Parker-Ginobili, and certainly better than Billups-Hamilton-Wallace. Antwan Jamison is no superstar, but he's been a consistent 20-8 guy throughout his career. I'll put it this way: the 2011 Caves with LeBron would have been as much better team, at least on paper, than the 2007 Cavs that made the Finals.

QuoteWhy wouldn't he want to get the best 2nd option he possibly could? Are people seriously faulting him for wanting to play with DWade???

I don't think people are faulting him for wanting to play with Wade, but for feeling that he needs Wade (and Bosh) in order to win a championship. As the SI writer put it, what LeBron did is the equivalent of Jordan leaving the Bulls in 1990 for the Pistons because he had a better chance of winning playing alongside Isiah Thomas. Jordan would much rather have stepped over Thomas (or anyone else) to win a title, than have to "join forces" with him to do it. Ditto for Kobe.
Does that make LeBron a bad guy? Not at all. But it shows he lacks the competitive will of the great ones.

People.

Stop comparing LBJ to other players at 25.  It's misleading.  He's played 7 years.   Compare him to other players after 7 years.

Quote from: Brewtown Andy on July 09, 2010, 11:00:13 PM
People.

Stop comparing LBJ to other players at 25.  It's misleading.  He's played 7 years.   Compare him to other players after 7 years.

All the other greats had a title by their 7th year in the league.  Its not fair that he got put up as the heir apparent to these guys.  The only thing is, joining a team like this is unprecedented and it is really hard to compare him to other guys now.

Quote from: Brewtown Andy on July 09, 2010, 11:00:13 PM
People.

Stop comparing LBJ to other players at 25.  It's misleading.  He's played 7 years.   Compare him to other players after 7 years.

+1000, I get so sick of the "youngest player to score X number of many points"

The Big Three's contracts are out and they did take a small paycut.  http://www.digitalsportsdaily.com/nba/news/2248-james-wade-bosh-sign-contracts-with-miami.html

Not sure what those contracts average out to, but if there is a 10.5% yearly raise, it is in the ballpark of $14 million/year this year.  So, that is $42 million to them and $16 million left, which lets them sign a player or two.  Don't hold me accountable to these numbers as it is just a ballpark.

Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 09, 2010, 11:20:46 PM
The Big Three's contracts are out and they did take a small paycut.  http://www.digitalsportsdaily.com/nba/news/2248-james-wade-bosh-sign-contracts-with-miami.html

Not sure what those contracts average out to, but if there is a 10.5% yearly raise, it is in the ballpark of $14 million/year this year.  So, that is $42 million to them and $16 million left, which lets them sign a player or two.  Don't hold me accountable to these numbers as it is just a ballpark.

Why do I keep reading about the S&T with Raptors and Cavs? Took a pay cut in a sign a trade? Thanks, though...you're following this insane process well.

Quote from: KCMarq09 on July 09, 2010, 11:17:19 PM
+1000, I get so sick of the "youngest player to score X number of many points"

That's at least mostly sensical. It's not LBJ's fault that he was allowed to enter the league at 18.

With the number of HS->NBA guys out there, we all need to remember that they're going to be going out of the league 2-4 years earlier than we think they should age-wise.

Quote from: KCMarq09 on July 09, 2010, 11:25:32 PM
Why do I keep reading about the S&T with Raptors and Cavs? Took a pay cut in a sign a trade? Thanks, though...you're following this insane process well.

I think it is a paycut per year but you get a sixth year guaranteed which is huge because any player could get hurt and be done.  Joe Johnson is set, for example.  It's worth it to get that 6th year in under this CBA, especially for Wade since this is most likely his last big pay day as he is a little older.  You also get 10.5% raises on the sign and trade.  Boozer and Amar'e are only gettin 8% raises, I think, since they signed with a new team.

I guess the Cavs and Raptors caved and did the sign and trade.  I guess you might as well take the draft picks from the Heat.  I also don't know what a trade exception means that people are talking about. 

I wonder how Joe Johnson feels now that he is the highest paid player in this entire thing. 

Quote from: Pakuni on July 09, 2010, 04:01:25 PM
I don't recall ever questioning Jordan's competitive instinct the way people have LeBron's.

As for Kobe ... yeah, he was petulant and spoiled. Still is, to a degree. But he couldn't wait to be rid of Shaq because he desperately wanted to be The Man, depserately wanted to prove he could - like Jordan - be in the central figure in a championship team.
James has done just the opposite. He's run away from being the central figure. Any title he wins with Miami will be, at best, shared three ways. Perhaps he doesn't care. Perhaps his happiness doesn't depend on that, which would make him somewhat of a rarity about athletes of his talents.
But history will judge him as a guy who couldn't put a team on his back and lead them to a title, and, IMO, that will keep him out of the discussion when people talk about the GOAT.

Why is it a negative that Lebron doesn't want to be like Kobe and MJ?

Listen to what you are saying.  Kobe couldn't wait to get rid of Shaq so he could be the man.  This is a positive trait?

" Any title he (Lebron) wins with Miami will be, at best, shared three ways."  This is a negative?

Quote from: Brewtown Andy on July 09, 2010, 11:31:33 PM
That's at least mostly sensical. It's not LBJ's fault that he was allowed to enter the league at 18.

With the number of HS->NBA guys out there, we all need to remember that they're going to be going out of the league 2-4 years earlier than we think they should age-wise.

Yeah, but when they are comparing him to players like Jordan and Magic, who played in college, using those stats and it is simply a very poor way to analyze it. Its easy to break some records when you are given a solid 3-4 year head start (age-wise).

Quote from: MUSF on July 10, 2010, 12:24:28 AM

" Any title he (Lebron) wins with Miami will be, at best, shared three ways."  This is a negative?

Yes, because it means people actually think Chris Bosh will contribute anything meaningful.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 09, 2010, 05:30:41 PM
I'm not convinced James-Williams-Jamison is much (if any) of a lesser group than Duncan-Parker-Ginobili, and certainly better than Billups-Hamilton-Wallace.

This is somewhat misleading IMO.  Those "big threes" may match up favorably but the rest of those Pistons / Spurs teams were better than the rest of the Cavs.  The Cavs didn't have guys like Prince, Bowen, Horry.

Quote from: Brewtown Andy on July 10, 2010, 12:30:55 AM
Yes, because it means people actually think Chris Bosh will contribute anything meaningful.

Bosh is the luckiest guy on the planet.  He gets lumped into a "big 3" even though he is really Horace Grant to the other two's MJ and Pippen.  Bosh gets to chill and post up every once in a while and get way more credit than he will likely deserve if they win.  If they lose, it will be all Lebron's fault.

I saw that Miami traded two first rounders and two second rounders to Cleveland for James and two first rounders to Miami for Bosh.  How will trading four first rounders and two second rounders affect Miami's progress -- particularly in light of their anticipated need for low-priced players?

Quote from: StillAWarrior on July 10, 2010, 06:59:26 AM
I saw that Miami traded two first rounders and two second rounders to Cleveland for James and two first rounders to Miami for Bosh.  How will trading four first rounders and two second rounders affect Miami's progress -- particularly in light of their anticipated need for low-priced players?

It means that they don't have to worry about the guaranteed money going to the 1st round picks and players they don't know if they can contribute anything immediately. 

Quote from: MUSF on July 10, 2010, 12:24:28 AM
Why is it a negative that Lebron doesn't want to be like Kobe and MJ?

Listen to what you are saying.  Kobe couldn't wait to get rid of Shaq so he could be the man.  This is a positive trait?

" Any title he (Lebron) wins with Miami will be, at best, shared three ways."  This is a negative?

I'm not discussing these as positive/negative traits as human beings, but rather as elite athletes. The truly elite are the guys who want, maybe even who need, to be The Man and crush everyone who stands between them and a title. As has been said by others far more eloquent than I these past couple days, if presented the choice, Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant (or Bill Russell, for that matter) wouldn't have wanted to win a title with Dwyane Wade, they would have wanted to beat Dwyane Wade for a title.
Right or wrong, this is how we separate the great players from the legendary players.

As for the sharing thing, yes, it's a negative as far as LeBron's legacy goes. He'll now forever be known as the guy who chose to path of least resistance to a championship - presuming they eventually win one -and was great enough to carry a team to one on his own.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 10, 2010, 07:36:24 AM
if presented the choice, Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant (or Bill Russell, for that matter) wouldn't have wanted to win a title with Dwyane Wade, they would have wanted to beat Dwyane Wade for a title.
Right or wrong, this is how we separate the great players from the legendary players.

What about Magic or Duncan?  Why is it always a comparison to MJ and Kobe.

I think Magic is every bit as great as Kobe and he didn't have to be a selfish dick to prove his greatness.  Why do you need to win without other great players to prove your own greatness?  It's a team game. 

Jordan ruined our perception of greatness in bball.  It was always about MJ and his ability to carry a team, win the game by himself, and sell more shoes and sports drinks than anyone.  Now every young basketball player grows up wanting to be like Mike, which essentially translates to being bigger than the team or anyone else around you.  These criticisms of Lebron not being a true competitor only reinforce this phenomenon.

I will concede that Lebron probably brought a lot of this on himself with the whole "chosen one" and "king James" nonsense.  However, I think a lot of that was him trying to live up to people's expectation.  Afterall, that's how we measure greatness in basketball now, so he had to be the man.

Quote from: MUSF on July 10, 2010, 08:20:36 AM
What about Magic or Duncan?  Why is it always a comparison to MJ and Kobe.

I think Magic is every bit as great as Kobe and he didn't have to be a selfish dick to prove his greatness.  Why do you need to win without other great players to prove your own greatness?  It's a team game. 

Jordan ruined our perception of greatness in bball.  It was always about MJ and his ability to carry a team, win the game by himself, and sell more shoes and sports drinks than anyone.  Now every young basketball player grows up wanting to be like Mike, which essentially translates to being bigger than the team or anyone else around you.  These criticisms of Lebron not being a true competitor only reinforce this phenomenon.

I will concede that Lebron probably brought a lot of this on himself with the whole "chosen one" and "king James" nonsense.  However, I think a lot of that was him trying to live up to people's expectation.  Afterall, that's how we measure greatness in basketball now, so he had to be the man.

I think, perhaps, some mistake Magic's ability to pass and create for teammates as evidence of deference or self-sacrifice. Magic was every bit The Man/Alpha Dog as Jordan, though his unique skill set allowed him to do it in a different manner. He took fewer shots, but dominated the ball and offensive flow just as much and, like Jordan and Kobe, everything ran through him. When games were on the line it was him, not Worthy, Scott or Jabbar, being set up to take the final shot.

On the other hand, LeBron for all intents is going to Miami to defer to Wade and - while not not exactly playing second fiddle - he will not be the dominant figure on the court.
Maybe he's OK with that, and I'm not suggesting that somehow makes him a lesser person. But when all's said and done, I suspect those who follow the baksetball - by design the most individualistic of all team sports - will remember him as the guy who chose to go after his titles the easy way.

All the greats have other greats around them.  The only difference is that in James' situation, he appears to have waived the white flag. 

For MJ, having Pippen develop alongside him is different than him signing with Boston so he could play with Larry.

For Magic, it is different that Kareem was there and Worthy developed alongside him.  He would have come off the same way if he had signed with the Sixers to joing Dr. J and Moses Malone.

It's like admitting you cannot lead a team.  You don't have to lead bums around.  James could have signed with Chicago and had DRose develop next to him or signed with the Clippers and had Blake Griffin develop with him.  Miami, San Antonio, and LA Lakers are the only spots he comes off bad going to.  And bad is relative.  He is in a good spot.  That team is going to be great.  Its a nice spot to win a title.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 09, 2010, 05:30:41 PM


I don't think people are faulting him for wanting to play with Wade, but for feeling that he needs Wade (and Bosh) in order to win a championship. As the SI writer put it, what LeBron did is the equivalent of Jordan leaving the Bulls in 1990 for the Pistons because he had a better chance of winning playing alongside Isiah Thomas. Jordan would much rather have stepped over Thomas (or anyone else) to win a title, than have to "join forces" with him to do it. Ditto for Kobe.
Does that make LeBron a bad guy? Not at all. But it shows he lacks the competitive will of the great ones.

Early in Jordan's career, he was by far the best player on a mediocre team.  He'd score 60+ points in a playoff game, but the Bulls would lose.  It wasn't until the Bulls got Pippen and Grant that the Bulls became a balanced team.  Jordan was still the star, obviously.  but star or not, he needed a supporting cast.  

So expecting James to carry the team "on his back" is unrealistic.  If James didn't feel that Cleveland's management would put the proper personnel around him, then its logical to go elsewhere.  I can't criticize him for that.

But he didn't need an ESPN special to make the announcement.  Jeeze.   ?-(

Quote from: Pakuni on July 10, 2010, 11:07:38 AM
I think, perhaps, some mistake Magic's ability to pass and create for teammates as evidence of deference or self-sacrifice. Magic was every bit The Man/Alpha Dog as Jordan, though his unique skill set allowed him to do it in a different manner. He took fewer shots, but dominated the ball and offensive flow just as much and, like Jordan and Kobe, everything ran through him. When games were on the line it was him, not Worthy, Scott or Jabbar, being set up to take the final shot.

On the other hand, LeBron for all intents is going to Miami to defer to Wade and - while not not exactly playing second fiddle - he will not be the dominant figure on the court.
Maybe he's OK with that, and I'm not suggesting that somehow makes him a lesser person. But when all's said and done, I suspect those who follow the baksetball - by design the most individualistic of all team sports - will remember him as the guy who chose to go after his titles the easy way.

Who gets the ball at crunch time and who dominates the ball are not as important as the media and fans make them out to be.  Again, the ghost of Jordan lingers.  Why does it have to be one guy?  Why would a players greatness be diminished simply because the last play of close games didn't always run through him?  Think of the options the Heat will have in those crunch time situations.  How would you like to be the opposing coach trying to set your defense up for that last possession?  

Lebron and Wade can be complimentary players without conceding any of their greatness to each other IF their egos don't get in the way.  I don't think Lebron is going to Miami to defer to Wade, as you suggest.  Some nights Lebron will be the dominant figure on the court and some nights it will be Wade.  The same was true with Kobe and Shaq in LA.  They were both great players and they had a great team.  Unfortunately, Shaq and Kobe couldn't handle sharing top billing.  We'll soon find out about Wade and Lebron.

Quote from: MUSF on July 10, 2010, 11:37:43 AM
Who gets the ball at crunch time and who dominates the ball are not as important as the media and fans make them out to be.  Again, the ghost of Jordan lingers.  Why does it have to be one guy?  Why would a players greatness be diminished simply because the last play of close games didn't always run through him?  Think of the options the Heat will have in those crunch time situations.  How would you like to be the opposing coach trying to set your defense up for that last possession?  

Lebron and Wade can be complimentary players without conceding any of their greatness to each other IF their egos don't get in the way.  I don't think Lebron is going to Miami to defer to Wade, as you suggest.  Some nights Lebron will be the dominant figure on the court and some nights it will be Wade.  The same was true with Kobe and Shaq in LA.  They were both great players and they had a great team.  Unfortunately, Shaq and Kobe couldn't handle sharing top billing.  We'll soon find out about Wade and Lebron.

I think they are going to be fine down there.  I think they will get to know each other, but lack of other pieces will cause them to lose to LA or Orlando or maybe Boston if they get hot.  Next year, after signing a nice midlevel piece, look out.  I don't think Wade or James has a problem sharing.

The issue that many of us are talking about is extremely mute.  Now, James could never beat Wade and James is not the best player in his generation.  Kobe and Wade are.  Marquette gets a player into the pantheon argument, as James is out.  There is nothing wrong at all being a Wilt/Dr. J type in my opinion.  James is gonna have a blast with his buddies and win.  I don't know if he cares that he never knocked off Wade on the way.

Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 10, 2010, 11:45:37 AM
I think they are going to be fine down there.  I think they will get to know each other, but lack of other pieces will cause them to lose to LA or Orlando or maybe Boston if they get hot.  Next year, after signing a nice midlevel piece, look out.  I don't think Wade or James has a problem sharing.

The issue that many of us are talking about is extremely mute.  Now, James could never beat Wade and James is not the best player in his generation.  Kobe and Wade are.  Marquette gets a player into the pantheon argument, as James is out.  There is nothing wrong at all being a Wilt/Dr. J type in my opinion.  James is gonna have a blast with his buddies and win.  I don't know if he cares that he never knocked off Wade on the way.

Wade and James still have a lot of basketball ahead of them.  I have a feeling both will still be in the argument for best player of their generation when all is said and done.

I still don't agree with the assessment that James has to beat Wade to truly be the King.  This isn't a greek tragedy, it's basketball.  Wade and James could end up contributing equally to multiple championships and James, because of his age, could continue to excel after Wade diminishes.  There are many ways that this could play out.

It sounds like the Heat will also sign Mike Miller, Derek Fisher and resign Haslem.  That's two shooters and big guy that plays defense and rebounds.  Everyone was worried they wouldn't have room or money for anyone else....seems like that Riley guy knows what he's doing.

Quote from: avid1010 on July 10, 2010, 12:16:06 PM
....seems like that Riley guy knows what he's doing.

Yeah - I've heard he's been around the block a time or two.   ;)

Quote from: avid1010 on July 10, 2010, 12:16:06 PM
It sounds like the Heat will also sign Mike Miller, Derek Fisher and resign Haslem.  That's two shooters and big guy that plays defense and rebounds.  Everyone was worried they wouldn't have room or money for anyone else....seems like that Riley guy knows what he's doing.

It will be interesting to see what moves get made.  They still seem to be lacking a banger down low.

Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 09, 2010, 05:23:46 PM
Easy... Lebron is not the best 25 year old ever.  Lebron went to the finals when the east was as soft as I have ever seen.  DWade was hurt that year (Bulls swept them out of the playoffs...) and the Pistons were aging and not the same team (that one OT game was sick by Lebron though).  Not knocking him, but he is just flat out not the best 25 year old ever...  Literally is flat out not.  I don't know what criteria you could possibly use to think that?

Shaq has an equal resume by 25.  Took a team to the Finals and got his behind swept like James did.

Magic's game 6 in Philly is something James has never done.

Jordan at age 25?  In the 1988-89 season, Jordan averaged 32.5haha only put numbers beyond a decimal when convenient, huh? points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists.  Lebron was 29.7, 7.3, and 8.6.  The season before that he average 37.5 ppgactually 35.0.  I believe that was the year of "the shot" as a series clincher on the road. Jordan had already set the record for most points in a playoff game too.  Jordan also had the game winner in a college final and had that under his belt.  No one thought Jordan's teammates were any good either.  Jordan is statistically better and also had a developing team around him back then. He was losing to the Celtics and the Pistons of old.  Jordan was a Pippen migraine away from winning it in his 6th season too. 

If you like Lebron, fine.  If you think he CAN be in the top 5 ever, fine.  Maybe he can.  But Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, and Wade are all current players ahead of him.  Let alone the other players that came before him. 

Before the Decision, people were not necessarily Lebron haters.  People are just saying easy on the comparisons.  He has not done anything to deserve that.  He is a top 5 player in the NBA right now, but easy on the best 25 year old ever type of thing.  I think Dr. J is a nice comparison personally.  Puts up tons of stats, people always think he is going to do it, but could not win that title until he had Moses Malone.  Dr. J was sweet though and is not a bad guy to be compared to.

My criteria: Mainly, admittedly, the eyeball test. I am trying to be patient with LeBron before I start knocking him for not winning a title. He does things almost nightly that Jordan, or anybody, could never do. And I am using skills/talent, not resumes. Of course, if we were using resumes, hes not even in the top 10 25y/os. I admit that I am extrapolating with his abilities and assuming he will continue to develop, but I don't think I am unfounded in that regard. As a casual fan of LeBron, I want him to develop that MJ killer instinct. My guess is it will come, but I am not so sure. And I agree that this Miami team isn't necessarily the best place to develop it. (I assure you I'm no groupie. I was really disappointed in him against the Celtics. I just like debating the NBA, and I think LeBron gets a bad wrap. He just really entertains me.)

Shaq at 25? No way. Not even close. Didn't take over the game in all facets like Lebron. He was simply a physical specimen who was nowhere near the player he became,  just dominating because of his bulk. And he had Penny, who was a great player for a flash of years. Haha you knock Lebron for making the finals when DWade was injured, but forget to mention that Shaq made it when Jordan was retired.

Magic? Ok he had a much better titles resume than Lebron, but he was literally put into the best situation a young player ever inherited. LeBron woud EASILY have multiple rings playing with Kareem near his prime, Worthy, etc. And one game 6 does not make him better. LeBron has had plenty of absurd games.

I admit, maybe I was a bit premature in saying he was better than Jordan at the age. But there is hardly any difference in those stats, and even less when you consider LeBron plays in a much, much slower era. There were a lot more shots/game back then. And he had a better supporting cast, but also was getting knocked out yearly in the playoffs. You no one thought Scottie Pippen was good? Hm, that sounds funny to me....He was a burgeoning all-star. If you want to compare great moments like the Elo shot, thats fine. Lebron has some pretty magical moments too--25 straight in the 4th vs Detroit, fadeaway three vs Orlando, etc.

Quote from: MUSF on July 10, 2010, 12:24:28 AM
Why is it a negative that Lebron doesn't want to be like Kobe and MJ?

Listen to what you are saying.  Kobe couldn't wait to get rid of Shaq so he could be the man.  This is a positive trait?

" Any title he (Lebron) wins with Miami will be, at best, shared three ways."  This is a negative?

Exactly. Why can't he have a different career path, but still end up in the same discussion. Be open-minded, people.

Quote from: MUSF on July 10, 2010, 11:37:43 AM
Who gets the ball at crunch time and who dominates the ball are not as important as the media and fans make them out to be.  Again, the ghost of Jordan lingers.  Why does it have to be one guy?  Why would a players greatness be diminished simply because the last play of close games didn't always run through him?  

Serious question?
OK, serious answer: because that's how we, as sports fans, define greatness. The great ones not only get the ball in their hands at the end of games, they demand the ball in their hands at the end of games ansd then they show you why. Jordan wasn't great just because he scored a lot, but also because of when he scored. Same with Kobe.

There's nothing wrong with there being two guys (though dollars to doughnuts there won't be two guys in Miami), but I disagree that it won't diminish anyone's greatness. Right or wrong, fair or not, that's just not the way the vast majority of basketball fans view it.
Look at the reaction to LeBron's signing. He's being ripped by nealry everyone because of the perception he's taking the path of least resistance to a title and is willing to cede his standing as THE guy.
That just never happens except when a guy is on the wrong side of 30 and desperate for a championship. doing it in your prime, at the height of your powers, is unheard of.

QuoteLebron and Wade can be complimentary players without conceding any of their greatness to each other IF their egos don't get in the way.  I don't think Lebron is going to Miami to defer to Wade, as you suggest.  Some nights Lebron will be the dominant figure on the court and some nights it will be Wade.  The same was true with Kobe and Shaq in LA.  They were both great players and they had a great team.  Unfortunately, Shaq and Kobe couldn't handle sharing top billing.  We'll soon find out about Wade and Lebron.

Agree to disagree, I guess. No one considered a "complementary player" will ever go down as one of the GOATs, IMO.  
Shaq and Kobe couldn't share top billing because their competitiveness - and the massive egos that usually come along with it - wouldn't allow it. Especially from Kobe's end. It may seem like a bad thing, but it's the same thing - the outsized competitiveness, the desire to be the best, the need to constantly prove onself, the ego - that makes the great ones tick.
LeBron, despite his enormous physical gifts, doesn't have the assassin-like mentality of the greats.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 09, 2010, 05:30:41 PM
I'm not convinced James-Williams-Jamison is much (if any) of a lesser group than Duncan-Parker-Ginobili, and certainly better than Billups-Hamilton-Wallace. Antwan Jamison is no superstar, but he's been a consistent 20-8 guy throughout his career. I'll put it this way: the 2011 Caves with LeBron would have been as much better team, at least on paper, than the 2007 Cavs that made the Finals.

To compare Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison to Parker and Ginobili is absolutely ridiculous. Tony Parker and Manu are each so much better than Mo. By a mile.  And Antawn Jamison might have been a solid #3 option 5 years ago, but he is 34 and contributed absolutely nothing in the playoffs. He was a shell of his former 20 and 8 self. Did you watch their games? Not only did he look slow, old, and overmatched, but he completely lost his shot. And Mo has never stepped up in a big game in his life. Not a championship #2 and #3 by any means. Manu and TP each singlehandedly took over and won tons of playoff games for the Spurs. Both are big-gamers. That was literally the perfect cast for Duncan.

And the Pistons team was built totally differently. 5 really good players instead of built around 1 or2 great ones. A different person won the game for them every night. Lebron doesn't have that luxury. Plus, all three of the Pistons you mentioned were significantly better during their run than Mo or Jamison was this year. Its not even close.

Quote from: MUSF on July 10, 2010, 12:20:08 PM
It will be interesting to see what moves get made.  They still seem to be lacking a banger down low.

They still could sign Joel Anthony and/or Jamale McClure. Not world class centers, but serviceable. I bet Haslem ends up playing center. They did that with Brian Grant a few years ago. Shortened his career though.

Quote from: MarkCharles on July 10, 2010, 12:46:46 PM
To compare Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison to Parker and Ginobili is absolutely ridiculous. Tony Parker and Manu are each so much better than Mo. By a mile.

Well then, it's a good thing I didn't do that.
What I said was James-Williams-Jamison were not much, if any worse of a group than Duncan-Parker-Ginobili.
James is clearly the best player of the six and while Ginobili and Parker have an edge among the others, it's not so great that it blows away the edge James has over Duncan.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 10, 2010, 12:41:04 PM
Serious question?
OK, serious answer: because that's how we, as sports fans, define greatness. The great ones not only get the ball in their hands at the end of games, they demand the ball in their hands at the end of games ansd then they show you why. Jordan wasn't great just because he scored a lot, but also because of when he scored. Same with Kobe.

There's nothing wrong with there being two guys (though dollars to doughnuts there won't be two guys in Miami), but I disagree that it won't diminish anyone's greatness. Right or wrong, fair or not, that's just not the way the vast majority of basketball fans view it.
Look at the reaction to LeBron's signing. He's being ripped by nealry everyone because of the perception he's taking the path of least resistance to a title and is willing to cede his standing as THE guy.
That just never happens except when a guy is on the wrong side of 30 and desperate for a championship. doing it in your prime, at the height of your powers, is unheard of.

Agree to disagree, I guess. No one considered a "complementary player" will ever go down as one of the GOATs, IMO.  
Shaq and Kobe couldn't share top billing because their competitiveness - and the massive egos that usually come along with it - wouldn't allow it. Especially from Kobe's end. It may seem like a bad thing, but it's the same thing - the outsized competitiveness, the desire to be the best, the need to constantly prove onself, the ego - that makes the great ones tick.
LeBron, despite his enormous physical gifts, doesn't have the assassin-like mentality of the greats.

I appreciate your serious answer and I agree that this is how today's basketball fans define greatness.  I'm just not sure that is how we should define greatness.  I also think this was essentially created by Jordan's unique greatness.  This is the reason he's being ripped in the media.  They have adopted Jordan's new definition of greatness and because most in the media rarely produce an original thought.  Jordan's model has been validated by Kobe but that doesn't make it the only way to the top of the mountain.

Jordan and Kobe had to be the man on their team and in the entire league, right or wrong.  Just because LeBron is willing to join forces with Wade doesn't necessarily mean he is less competitive or doesn't have the assassin-like mentality of the greats.  It could mean that he is simply less insecure than Kobe and MJ and doesn't think the success or abiltiy of his opponents and teamates detracts from his own.

 IF EGOS DON'T GET IN THE WAY, LeBron will take over games when he needs to and defer to Wade when it benefits the team.  He will get his stats and continue to amaze us with his physical ability.  He could win some titles and some MVPs.  If these things happen, I would bet that his name will be mentioned with MJ, Kobe, Russell, Magic, et. al.  His path to the top of the mountain will just look a lot different that MJ and Kobe's

Quote from: MarkCharles on July 10, 2010, 12:27:05 PM
My criteria: Mainly, admittedly, the eyeball test. I am trying to be patient with LeBron before I start knocking him for not winning a title. He does things almost nightly that Jordan, or anybody, could never do. And I am using skills/talent, not resumes. Of course, if we were using resumes, hes not even in the top 10 25y/os. I admit that I am extrapolating with his abilities and assuming he will continue to develop, but I don't think I am unfounded in that regard. As a casual fan of LeBron, I want him to develop that MJ killer instinct. My guess is it will come, but I am not so sure. And I agree that this Miami team isn't necessarily the best place to develop it. (I assure you I'm no groupie. I was really disappointed in him against the Celtics. I just like debating the NBA, and I think LeBron gets a bad wrap. He just really entertains me.)

Shaq at 25? No way. Not even close. Didn't take over the game in all facets like Lebron. He was simply a physical specimen who was nowhere near the player he became,  just dominating because of his bulk. And he had Penny, who was a great player for a flash of years. Haha you knock Lebron for making the finals when DWade was injured, but forget to mention that Shaq made it when Jordan was retired.

Magic? Ok he had a much better titles resume than Lebron, but he was literally put into the best situation a young player ever inherited. LeBron woud EASILY have multiple rings playing with Kareem near his prime, Worthy, etc. And one game 6 does not make him better. LeBron has had plenty of absurd games.

I admit, maybe I was a bit premature in saying he was better than Jordan at the age. But there is hardly any difference in those stats, and even less when you consider LeBron plays in a much, much slower era. There were a lot more shots/game back then. And he had a better supporting cast, but also was getting knocked out yearly in the playoffs. You no one thought Scottie Pippen was good? Hm, that sounds funny to me....He was a burgeoning all-star. If you want to compare great moments like the Elo shot, thats fine. Lebron has some pretty magical moments too--25 straight in the 4th vs Detroit, fadeaway three vs Orlando, etc.

The eyeball test is subjective, but I agree he has had some great athletic plays. 

Shaq did beat MJ's Bulls on the way to the Finals actually.  And the East has been pretty soft this last decade compared to the 1990s.  Shaq's team in Orlando beat a very tough Indiana team too in 7 games.  Shaq's time in Orlando is probably a good comparison to Lebron's time in Cleveland.  Young phenoms winning a ton of games.  Shaq was a huge difference maker.

And everyone questioned the talent around Jordan until they got tough in 1991 and finally got it done.  Pippen made the all-star team in 1990, but then had the migraine headache and did not make it back the next year.  Had Pippen been able to step up and play through that migraine headach in Game 7, the Bulls might have been able to go on and win their first one in 1990.  But MJ stuck with the team and they grew up together.  Pippen was projecting to have a Mo Williams type path until that 1991 playoff run where he really got tough against Detroit and then followed that by covering Johnson in the Finals.  I think Lebron should have comitted to the Cavs so that they could have developed a team around him rather than try to sign over the hill free agents to play around him.  The Cavs might be maturing into a great now, and Lebron could have stayed. 

I'm not hating on Lebron like people might think I am.  He is deservedly an All-NBA player.  He and Melo are the best SFs in the league, and I would say James beats Melo.  He and Kobe are the best two players.  But I just think people got sucked into this "Witness" thing and King James stuff.  Let the guy prove himself.  I think, by looking at how he plays and how he has handled himself in the playoffs that he is more of a Dr. J type of path.  That is just me observing him and not buying into the Witness stuff.  Each player is his own path, and we have never seen anything like this so we will see how it turns out.  I'm just gonna embrace him as Dr. J and there is nothing wrong with that.  Dr. J was amazing and won titles.

Quote from: Pakuni on July 10, 2010, 01:53:04 PM
Well then, it's a good thing I didn't do that.
What I said was James-Williams-Jamison were not much, if any worse of a group than Duncan-Parker-Ginobili.
James is clearly the best player of the six and while Ginobili and Parker have an edge among the others, it's not so great that it blows away the edge James has over Duncan.

+1

One thing that is hard to understand is how a guy could leave the first place team.  Mike Miller could have signed the mid-level there, Hickson would have developed, Byron Scott could have changed the strategy, and Lebron could have matured another year.  The Cavs are not a juggernaut team necessarily, but a nice mid-level signing and Hickson getting better, maybe they could have been. 

Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 11, 2010, 05:21:49 PM
+1

One thing that is hard to understand is how a guy could leave the first place team.  Mike Miller could have signed the mid-level there, Hickson would have developed, Byron Scott could have changed the strategy, and Lebron could have matured another year.  The Cavs are not a juggernaut team necessarily, but a nice mid-level signing and Hickson getting better, maybe they could have been. 

It seems like this attitude, that LeBron needs to "develop" a team, unfairly puts a burden on him to build a team. Thats not his job. His job is to win games with the players around him, and I believe he did a decent job of that considering the talent around him. I think the major problem with this Cavs team is that, with Lebron not committed long-term, the front office had to adopt a win-now strategy instead of trying to build the best roster for the next decade. It was a tough situation for the front office, but they put all their eggs in one basket each year, and it obviously didn't work out. Their roster was inflexible and, imho, not as close to winning a title as their regular season record would indicate. I don't blame Lebron one bit for not staying with Cle. His goals are clearly to be an all-time great, and he couldn't afford to waste any more years in his rare career waiting for guys like JJ Hickson to become a championship level player. Hickson is certainly not the answer Lebron's problems, and Mike Miller wasn't pushing them over the top either. They needed a true #2 option. Lebron didn't owe Cleveland anything more than he gave them, but Cleveland didn't deserve the way he has acted in the last couple days. But other than "the Decision", what has Lebron ever done wrong to Cleveland? Their Fans and front office are acting like scorned children.

I think comparing Mo Williams to a young Pippen is a bit off. Pippen was a 19.3/game scorer by his 3rd year, whereas Mo is a solid guy who has clearly peaked, and never seems to step up in big playoff games. He was never as good as Pippen was by his 3rd year, and Pippen was great for the next decade. Plus, I think MJ staying with CHI was about his massive ego and proving himself, something James, for better or worse, seems less concerned with.

And I disagree with the level of the east the last few years compared to the '90s. This Celtics team is better than the Pacers or Knicks of that era were. You're right, I forgot that O'neal got to the finals in MJ's return year. I guess my view of the east of that era was that it was dull, rough, and not very talented.

You say Shaq in Orl compares to Lebron's in Cle, and I agree. But does the fact that Shaq had to leave his "developing" roster to join an absolutely stacked LA squad to get his rings diminish his accoplishments? I don't think it does. If Lebron wins titles playing as well as Shaq did with LA, he shouldn't be downgraded simply because he played with a loaded squad. As you say, let him prove himself.

Quote from: Brewtown Andy on July 09, 2010, 08:43:54 AM
With what money? He made $7 million last year, and there's a lockout coming next summer.

Haslem is believed to be considering re-signing with the team. They can't offer him as much, and he knows it, but Miami is where is his home has been his entire career. I doubt that'll change.

Quote from: MarkCharles on July 11, 2010, 08:43:44 PM
And I disagree with the level of the east the last few years compared to the '90s. This Celtics team is better than the Pacers or Knicks of that era were. You're right, I forgot that O'neal got to the finals in MJ's return year. I guess my view of the east of that era was that it was dull, rough, and not very talented.

You say Shaq in Orl compares to Lebron's in Cle, and I agree. But does the fact that Shaq had to leave his "developing" roster to join an absolutely stacked LA squad to get his rings diminish his accoplishments? I don't think it does. If Lebron wins titles playing as well as Shaq did with LA, he shouldn't be downgraded simply because he played with a loaded squad. As you say, let him prove himself.

That is interesting that you think the east was not good in the 1990s but was better in this past decade.  The east with teams like New Jersey and Philadelphia winning it was one of the weakest I have ever seen.  The NBA Finals have been snoozers for the most part this decade because the east was so weak.  The 1990s had strong teams like the Knicks, Pacers, Magic, and Heat.  All four of those teams would have dominated this decade in the east.  It was sorry basketball. 

LA was not at all stacked when Shaq went there.  A team developed around him as Fisher and Kobe came up, Fox and Horry came later, and Phil put it all together with a few vets like Ron Harper and Glenn Rice.  I was shocked back then that Shaq wanted to leave that Orlando team.  Who knows what was happening internally then though, but that was a strong team in Orlando to leave.  But Shaq did not go and sign with the Houston Rockets.  He went to another team and had it all came together as players matured around him.  It is not the same move that Lebron is making.  Shaq going to Houston and having a party calling him and Hakeem the twin towers would be what Lebron is doing. 

And what you said about what Lebron's non-committal did to the Cavs management is exactly what I have been saying.  It is not Lebron's job, true, but it was not a good situation with the Cavs because of the uncertainty in the future.  It is part of the business.  He does not need to literally build a team, but the greats make others better.  There was talent there and it just makes it such a different situation for him to leave the first place team.  I think leaving Cleveland is understandable though.  This is sports in the new millenium.  Free agency is part of the game.  I think fans love analyzing the general manager's strategies and free agency helps the game overall. 

I don't see why people are mad that Lebron is getting "downgraded."  He is not.  He is exactly who he is and some of us have seen that for a while.  He is not what Nike wishes he was when he signed with them at 18.  People can wish it all they want.  Joining Wade is a call for "help" no matter which way you spin it.  None of the pantheon players have every chosen this kind of help.  The fact that it was 100% his choice to ride the coattails of another player is big for people who appreciate NBA history.  The $100 million dollar contracts which the media calls a paycut, the party they had before even playing a game, the decision, everything.  It is rubbing people the wrong way.  And it does not matter to James, probably, because it is who he is.  We should appreciate him as hoops fans and not give him expectations for something that he is not. 

Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 11, 2010, 09:25:20 PM
That is interesting that you think the east was not good in the 1990s but was better in this past decade.  The east with teams like New Jersey and Philadelphia winning it was one of the weakest I have ever seen.  The NBA Finals have been snoozers for the most part this decade because the east was so weak.  The 1990s had strong teams like the Knicks, Pacers, Magic, and Heat.  All four of those teams would have dominated this decade in the east.  It was sorry basketball. 

LA was not at all stacked when Shaq went there.  A team developed around him as Fisher and Kobe came up, Fox and Horry came later, and Phil put it all together with a few vets like Ron Harper and Glenn Rice.  I was shocked back then that Shaq wanted to leave that Orlando team.  Who knows what was happening internally then though, but that was a strong team in Orlando to leave.  But Shaq did not go and sign with the Houston Rockets.  He went to another team and had it all came together as players matured around him.  It is not the same move that Lebron is making.  Shaq going to Houston and having a party calling him and Hakeem the twin towers would be what Lebron is doing. 

And what you said about what Lebron's non-committal did to the Cavs management is exactly what I have been saying.  It is not Lebron's job, true, but it was not a good situation with the Cavs because of the uncertainty in the future.  It is part of the business.  He does not need to literally build a team, but the greats make others better.  There was talent there and it just makes it such a different situation for him to leave the first place team.  I think leaving Cleveland is understandable though.  This is sports in the new millenium.  Free agency is part of the game.  I think fans love analyzing the general manager's strategies and free agency helps the game overall. 

I don't see why people are mad that Lebron is getting "downgraded."  He is not.  He is exactly who he is and some of us have seen that for a while.  He is not what Nike wishes he was when he signed with them at 18.  People can wish it all they want.  Joining Wade is a call for "help" no matter which way you spin it.  None of the pantheon players have every chosen this kind of help.  The fact that it was 100% his choice to ride the coattails of another player is big for people who appreciate NBA history.  The $100 million dollar contracts which the media calls a paycut, the party they had before even playing a game, the decision, everything.  It is rubbing people the wrong way.  And it does not matter to James, probably, because it is who he is.  We should appreciate him as hoops fans and not give him expectations for something that he is not. 

We are talking about the easts that Lebron and Jordan each faced, so obviously I am not talking about early 2000s east, only the last 4-5 years. In that time, he went up against a great Celtics team that is way better than Indiana, Miami, or NY were in the 90's. I would also put Orlando as an equal of any of those teams. You might disagree, but for me that was one of the darkest eras of NBA basketball, Jordan and all. Ugly, negative basketball. The early 2000s were absolutely horrible, but power has been shifting back to the east and there is no easy path to the finals like MJ often had.  
Who do you pick, 7 game series---2008 Boston or 1999 Knicks? I say Celtics, hands down.

How can you honestly say that Indiana would dominate this east??? What were the matchups that team presented to opponents that would allow them to dominate Orl, Bos, Cle? Please defend that. Any team led by Reggie Miller is severely limited in any greatness discussion (and I'm a big Reggie fan). 08 Celtics or 09 Magic were much stronger teams. And if the east was so strong in the 1990s, why didn't any of them ever win a title or challenge MJ? (besides Orl once when Jordan was still rusty from hitting ground balls) I don't think theres any way any of those teams could've beaten Kobe's 08 Lakers. Do you?

Whether the Lakers were stacked the year before Shaq arrived is besides the point-the entire time he was there they were loaded, as Kobe, Fisher, and Shaq all arrived the same offseason.  Its not like Shaq would have pledged his entire career to the Lakers, promising to stay as the patiently developed. I'm sure he went there fully expecting them to fill the roster around him. If things didn't work out, he wouldv'e forced his way out.

You say the Cavs had talent in place--where?
PG-Mo Williams-solid guy, never steps up much when needed most, wildly inconsistent. Declining as he ages. At best, #3 option.
SG-Delonte West-total headcase, again insanely inconsistent, really not all that good even on a good night.
PF-Jamison-shell of his former self, totally lost his shot, got dominated down low by Boston
C-Shaq-Added absolutely nothing to the roster. Varejao I like but hes not a top player.

Hickson looks like he could be something, but he is years away from being a major contributor, and I don't think his upside is much more than 15 and 8/game. This group wasn't going to win. You seem to downgrade Lebron because he left what he saw was a losing cause. I actually applaud him for making what was no doubt a very hard, emotional decision for him.

Quote from: MarkCharles on July 11, 2010, 10:30:43 PM
We are talking about the easts that Lebron and Jordan each faced, so obviously I am not talking about early 2000s east, only the last 4-5 years. In that time, he went up against a great Celtics team that is way better than Indiana, Miami, or NY were in the 90's. I would also put Orlando as an equal of any of those teams. You might disagree, but for me that was one of the darkest eras of NBA basketball, Jordan and all. Ugly, negative basketball. The early 2000s were absolutely horrible, but power has been shifting back to the east and there is no easy path to the finals like MJ often had.  
Who do you pick, 7 game series---2008 Boston or 1999 Knicks? I say Celtics, hands down.

How can you honestly say that Indiana would dominate this east??? What were the matchups that team presented to opponents that would allow them to dominate Orl, Bos, Cle? Please defend that. Any team led by Reggie Miller is severely limited in any greatness discussion (and I'm a big Reggie fan). 08 Celtics or 09 Magic were much stronger teams. And if the east was so strong in the 1990s, why didn't any of them ever win a title or challenge MJ? (besides Orl once when Jordan was still rusty from hitting ground balls) I don't think theres any way any of those teams could've beaten Kobe's 08 Lakers. Do you?

Whether the Lakers were stacked the year before Shaq arrived is besides the point-the entire time he was there they were loaded, as Kobe, Fisher, and Shaq all arrived the same offseason.  Its not like Shaq would have pledged his entire career to the Lakers, promising to stay as the patiently developed. I'm sure he went there fully expecting them to fill the roster around him. If things didn't work out, he wouldv'e forced his way out.

You say the Cavs had talent in place--where?
PG-Mo Williams-solid guy, never steps up much when needed most, wildly inconsistent. Declining as he ages. At best, #3 option.
SG-Delonte West-total headcase, again insanely inconsistent, really not all that good even on a good night.
PF-Jamison-shell of his former self, totally lost his shot, got dominated down low by Boston
C-Shaq-Added absolutely nothing to the roster. Varejao I like but hes not a top player.

Hickson looks like he could be something, but he is years away from being a major contributor, and I don't think his upside is much more than 15 and 8/game. This group wasn't going to win. You seem to downgrade Lebron because he left what he saw was a losing cause. I actually applaud him for making what was no doubt a very hard, emotional decision for him.

The downgrade is not because he left the Cavs, it is that he went to the Heat.  The Spurs, Lakers, or Celtics would have been the same.  I have no interest in knocking James.  I am just calling it as it is.  I am not crowning him the King at age 18 so it creates an assumption of greatness.  There is no burden on me to prove that James isn't the King.  The burden is on people who say he is.  He is one of the best athletes to ever play the game and he has above average talent.  He has a high IQ.  His freak athleticism allows him to dominate.  He is one of the best players in the league.  Cleveland was a good club.  No one can say they overachieved by getting to the second round.  Most would say that they underachieved, especially this year. 

We brought up how good the east was in the context of James getting to the NBA Finals.  That was probably the easiest path to the finals that any team will get short of the years the Nets made the finals earlier in the decade.  And yes, I do think those Knicks, Heat, and Pacers teams would be very competitive late in this decade because of their defense.  The defensive 3 seconds changes some stuff, but those teams could play, and just had a dynasty that they could not beat.

Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 11, 2010, 11:11:42 PM
The downgrade is not because he left the Cavs, it is that he went to the Heat.  The Spurs, Lakers, or Celtics would have been the same.  I have no interest in knocking James.  I am just calling it as it is.  I am not crowning him the King at age 18 so it creates an assumption of greatness.  There is no burden on me to prove that James isn't the King.  The burden is on people who say he is.  He is one of the best athletes to ever play the game and he has above average talent.  He has a high IQ.  His freak athleticism allows him to dominate.  He is one of the best players in the league.  Cleveland was a good club.  No one can say they overachieved by getting to the second round.  Most would say that they underachieved, especially this year. 

We brought up how good the east was in the context of James getting to the NBA Finals.  That was probably the easiest path to the finals that any team will get short of the years the Nets made the finals earlier in the decade.  And yes, I do think those Knicks, Heat, and Pacers teams would be very competitive late in this decade because of their defense.  The defensive 3 seconds changes some stuff, but those teams could play, and just had a dynasty that they could not beat.

Ok, you view his choice differently than I do. Agree to disagree.

You said it yourself--Cleveland underachieved this year. And last year. And the year before that. In the Playoffs Because that team was built to be great in the regular season, not the playoffs. Any very good-to great team, like the Celtics, was able to find and exploit their deficiencies in a 7 game series. That group was simply not built to win a title.

When I think about Lebron's decision, Kevin Garnett comes to mind. Both were loyal to their original clubs for a while. Garnett longer, but don't you think Garnett wishes he got out of Minn before he did? He wasted a lot of years playing for a team that was not going to win a title. Lebron didn't want to do that. That puts no tarnish on his greatness. He will be considered an all-time great if he plays like one, not simply because he wins multiple titles.

THe year the Cavs made the Finals, the east was very weak. Lebron was not ready.  But that is not the time that I consider him to have taken the step towards greatness. That has been the last 2-3 years, and the east has been anything but easy in that time. Cleveland's playoff results in that time should illustrate that. I've been talking about Lebron in the context of his inability to win a title with a seemingly great team, and his decision to do something about that other than hope for development from role players. Believe me, I have never called him the King. I believe, and I assume Lebron does too, that that stuff was a major hindrance for his maturity.

Again, I'd like to hear your defense of how you think the Pacers could dominate this east. Or the Heat. How exactly would either of those rosters dominate Dwight Howard? Lebron James? Rajon Rondo + the three hall of famers around him?

Quote from: MarkCharles on July 12, 2010, 12:05:23 AM


Again, I'd like to hear your defense of how you think the Pacers could dominate this east. Or the Heat. How exactly would either of those rosters dominate Dwight Howard? Lebron James? Rajon Rondo + the three hall of famers around him?

I'll quickly run through the decade as Indiana/Miami/NYK/Orl v. any of the Eastern Conference champs.  Any one of those teams would have been better than Philadelphia, beat New Jersey both times, played both of Detroits teams close, played close with the Heat with Shaq/Wade, demolished the Cavs, the Celtics in 08 would take any of those teams, and Orlando and 2010 Boston would have been close.

Interior defense, general toughness and competitiveness, ability to score at guard and inside, etc would have allowed those teams runner up teams from the 1990s to get to the Finals 5/10 times.  This decade was not the eastern conference's finest hour, with most of the bad happening at the beginning of the decade whereas the 1990s eastern conference was a grind where a lot of good teams were outshown by Chicago.  You seem to be a lot more impressed with players like James, so we may have to agree to disagree. 

Should be a good NBA season coming up.  Things are getting competitive these last few years so hopefully it stays fun.

My prediction: Miami wins a couple a championships but what will become completely clear is that Wade is a better player than James and will be viewed that way by everyone. In other words, by going to Miami Lebron James just became Scottie Pippen.

Quote from: ohiomarqfan on July 12, 2010, 08:36:23 AM
My prediction: Miami wins a couple a championships but what will become completely clear is that Wade is a better player than James and will be viewed that way by everyone. In other words, by going to Miami Lebron James just became Scottie Pippen.

It was very clear during the introduction party in Miami, that while they are happy to have James, it is DWade's team and town.

Go D Wade, but screw the Heat and LBJ...

"I got a goal, and that's to bring an NBA Championship to CLeveland. And I won't stop until I get it" -LeBron James.

Quote from: ohiomarqfan on July 12, 2010, 08:36:23 AM
My prediction: Miami wins a couple a championships but what will become completely clear is that Wade is a better player than James and will be viewed that way by everyone. In other words, by going to Miami Lebron James just became Scottie Pippen.

It's become clear to me that LBJ wants to be Scottie Pippen. He doesn't want the pressure of having a franchise and an entire fanbase depending on him to bring home titles, and he doesn't want to be blamed if he doesn't deliver. When the Bulls came up short against Detroit, did anyone place blame on Pippen? No! It was all on Jordan. If LBJ stayed in Cleveland or went to Chicago or NY, the pressure all would have been on him. That pressure would have been huge and I don't think LeBron had any interest in dealing with it. He just wants to play basketball and have fun. In Cleveland, he always had the fall-back of "it's not his fault, the supporting cast is bad" but as the Cavs improved their roster, the pressure on LeBron became greater and greater...so he bolted for some place safer.

In Miami, LeBron has the protection of two other big-name players, including one that has already won a title in that city. The Heat are D-Wade's team and Miami is D-Wade's city (and county). That's a huge part of the appeal for LeBron. What he fails to realize is that if this experiment doesn't result in championships, many people are still going to pin the blame on him simply because he's the biggest name.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 13, 2010, 01:15:06 PM
It's become clear to me that LBJ wants to be Scottie Pippen. He doesn't want the pressure of having a franchise and an entire fanbase depending on him to bring home titles, and he doesn't want to be blamed if he doesn't deliver. When the Bulls came up short against Detroit, did anyone place blame on Pippen? No! It was all on Jordan. If LBJ stayed in Cleveland or went to Chicago or NY, the pressure all would have been on him. That pressure would have been huge and I don't think LeBron had any interest in dealing with it. He just wants to play basketball and have fun. In Cleveland, he always had the fall-back of "it's not his fault, the supporting cast is bad" but as the Cavs improved their roster, the pressure on LeBron became greater and greater...so he bolted for some place safer.

In Miami, LeBron has the protection of two other big-name players, including one that has already won a title in that city. The Heat are D-Wade's team and Miami is D-Wade's city (and county). That's a huge part of the appeal for LeBron. What he fails to realize is that if this experiment doesn't result in championships, many people are still going to pin the blame on him simply because he's the biggest name.

+ 1
Another reason his decision was a head scratcher. If he wins a title, people will say 'Great, but he needed two other star players to carry him along.' If he doesn't win a title or, perhaps more likely, multiple titles,  he'll get more than his share of the blame. After all, Wade already has proven he could win one without LeBron. So the problem, the thinking will go, must be LeBron.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZr2qOXQJ4w&feature=player_embedded


hilarious.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on July 13, 2010, 01:15:06 PM
When the Bulls came up short against Detroit, did anyone place blame on Pippen? No! It was all on Jordan.

In 1990, Scottie got a migraine in game 7 against Detroit and blew it.  People did (and still do) blame him for that 1990 loss.  But the fans were not necessaily relying on Scotte to step up in the big game, so your general point is right.  MJ could not get it done.

Lebron will take ALL the heat when they lose. 

Quote from: HoopsMalone on July 13, 2010, 04:48:16 PM
In 1990, Scottie got a migraine in game 7 against Detroit and blew it.  People did (and still do) blame him for that 1990 loss.  But the fans were not necessaily relying on Scotte to step up in the big game, so your general point is right.  MJ could not get it done.

Lebron will take ALL the heat when they lose. 

And Wade will get all the credit if they win. LBJ really put himself in an odd position where the best case scenario paints him as the guy who couldn't get it done alone, whereas for Wade the worst case scenario will put the blame on James. Win-win for DW3 and lose-lose for LBJ.

Quote from: jeffreyweee on July 13, 2010, 04:44:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZr2qOXQJ4w&feature=player_embedded


hilarious.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

The think I love about Lebron and Bosh joining Dwade in Miami is that, no matter how many championships they win together, D-Wade will always have 1 more. 

Somehow, the Heat have managed to put together a roster.  Signing their third center in as many days along with other players earlier in the week.

How were they able to do this?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 17, 2010, 09:55:13 PM
Somehow, the Heat have managed to put together a roster.  Signing their third center in as many days along with other players earlier in the week.

How were they able to do this?

Wait a second, people on this board said they would only be able to sign the big three and a bunch of minimum contract scrubs.  Are you telling me that Pat Riley knows more about his team and the salary system in the NBA than MUScoopers?  That can't be.

Pretty simple how they were able to do this.

Each of the big three gave up about 2 million per year from their max contracts with Wade giving up about 2.5 million in first year. I have not seen the numbers for the out years of the contract, but as I understand it, each succeeding year is about 8 % higher than the prior year.

I believe that for the first year, the Heat had an additioinal about $7 million in cap room, and with trade of Beasley, this created another couple million for this upcoming year.

Don't know the exact number, but I'm guessing that the Heat ended up with about $8 million to play with in first year, giving them enough to sign Miller, Ilgauskas and Haslem. If Ilgauskas agreed to veteran's minimum, that does not even count against cap, and because Haslem and Anthony were already Miami roster, they may not have all of their salary counted against the cap.

Pretty complicated, but the Heat definitely knew what they are doing!!! They probably still have a few million to go.

Quote from: willie warrior on July 18, 2010, 10:02:10 AM
Pretty simple how they were able to do this.

Each of the big three gave up about 2 million per year from their max contracts with Wade giving up about 2.5 million in first year. I have not seen the numbers for the out years of the contract, but as I understand it, each succeeding year is about 8 % higher than the prior year.

I believe that for the first year, the Heat had an additioinal about $7 million in cap room, and with trade of Beasley, this created another couple million for this upcoming year.

Don't know the exact number, but I'm guessing that the Heat ended up with about $8 million to play with in first year, giving them enough to sign Miller, Ilgauskas and Haslem. If Ilgauskas agreed to veteran's minimum, that does not even count against cap, and because Haslem and Anthony were already Miami roster, they may not have all of their salary counted against the cap.

Pretty complicated, but the Heat definitely knew what they are doing!!! They probably still have a few million to go.

Yup.  Which is why the idea it would be the big 3 and just stiffs surrounding them was a bit much.  The irony is that they will have more flexibility in the years to come.  The toughest cap year for them is the first year.

Stop traffic, they traded a player that was on their team (Beasley) and signed a player in his place (Miller).  Then they re-signed their own guy in Haslem.  Ilgauskus is exactly the type of player I was expecting them to fill around.

You can't draw a line between stiffs and not stiffs and then when it appears to you that a player signing is in the "not stiff" category that everyone on this board was off base for questioning the Heat roster.  If Ilgauskas is not a stiff, I don't know who is, but I guess we are all free to have our own opinion of stiff.

They had the big 3 and beasley and now have the big 3 and Mike Miller.  Not much else around them.  Maybe you guys see it differenly but there are not guys like Brad Miller taking the veteran minimum when he has a $5 million offer.  They aren't getting good players down there in my opinion. 

Matt Barnes would be a nice signing for them.  But I imagine players like Juwand Howard and Jason Williams on the team.  I pray for Shaq to sign just to add a little more entertainment.

The problem, hoops, is that some people were saying it would be 9 minimum salary guys and the big 3.  That was nonsense then and it's nonsense now.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/roster?team=mia

This lists the salaries.  They are already at $57 million without Ilgauskas included.  I am surprised Mike Miller had a front loaded contract but it makes some sense I guess with the 10.5% raises the big 3 get in coming years.

It's a good team, but the consequence is the big three, beasley or mike miller, and most veteran minium players.  I am not sure where the "I told you so" posts are appropriate?  Haslem was nice, I will admit that.  He took $4 million instead of $5 million to stay in his hometown and Haslem is the consequence of the paycut.  But are people gloating that the Heat picked up Ilgauskas?  You have to sign 13 players by league rule and these are the guys you are going to get.

It's not a "I told you so post".  Riley is a smart guy and so are the players on that team.  They will do fine, they probably will not win it this year, may not even finish in the top 3 in the East, but longer term they should be fine because of how the cap works.

I don't disagree that Ilgaukus is not a top center, but how many top centers are there in the NBA?  5? 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 18, 2010, 12:40:43 PM
It's not a "I told you so post".  Riley is a smart guy and so are the players on that team.  They will do fine, they probably will not win it this year, may not even finish in the top 3 in the East, but longer term they should be fine because of how the cap works.

I don't disagree that Ilgaukus is not a top center, but how many top centers are there in the NBA?  5? 

We probably do agree.  Riley is doing a good job.  When Bosh and Wade signed, he had a choice between taking the safe route and signing Brendan Haywood and Raymond, Felton, developing Beasley, and maybe adding Kyle Korver or something.  That is a safe team that has a high chance of winning one ring.  Instead, he chose James, which means it might not work, they could have injuries, and may have weaknesses defensively at center and PG, but it gives them the chance to win 3-5 titles, rather than one.  I think he made the right choice as you can't pass on James.   No one will blame him if they don't win one.  You have to go for the dynasty. 

I think the Heat will get a top 3 record in the East and most likel number 1.  What affects the Heat is how stacked their division within the East.  The winners of each division get the top 3 seeds which favors Boston who does not have much to contend with and Chicago who I think will edge out Milwaukee.  So, that leaves the Heat, Magic, and Hawks battling for the 1, 4, and 5 seed.  Then two of those teams will likely play each other in the second round, and then face Chicago or Boston in the third round.  Not an easy path to the Finals next year for anyone in the East.  If Atlanta really adds Shaq, they are a dangerous team.  So much talent there, but they have not been able to put it together.

Finding a top center in the NBA is just as tough as it is for Buzz to find one at Marquette.  I mean, $5 million per year for Brad Miller?  The talent is so rare.  I guess the top centers are Howard, Bynum if healthy, Pau who usually plays the 5, Yao when healthy and Duncan (who is now basically the 5) and then there is a drop off to guys like Bogut, Shaq, Noah, Nene, Brendan Haywood, Tyson Chandler, and those types of guys who give you nice production but aren't exactly game changers on both ends of the floor. 

Dallas did a nice job of adding two nice 5 men in Chandler and Haywood.  It's also pretty crazy that the Lakers have two top 5 centers probably as Bynum is pretty solid when he is healthy. Bynum might be debatable as a top center, but look at what Bynum was giving the Lakers earlier in the season as a third or fourth option-  http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/gamelog?playerId=2748

I'd say Bogut classes as a top center. Granted, he averages a couple points less, but his rebound and block numbers are favorable stacked up against Gasol, Duncan, and Yao. Of course Howard is the cream of the crop, but after him, I think Bogut is top five.

But regardless, on topic, I still look at the Heat as the Big Three and scrubs. Miller is a fine signing, but not a stud. Ilgauskus' numbers are dropping like a rock and he's already 35. Who are the other players there? Joel Anthony? Dexter Pittman? It's pretty obvious that other than the big three, Chalmers and Miller are the two best players. I'm not saying they can't improve with time, but this won't be a good team as far as having an actual rotation and bench for another 2 years or so.

Quote from: brewcity77 on July 18, 2010, 02:42:51 PM
I'd say Bogut classes as a top center. Granted, he averages a couple points less, but his rebound and block numbers are favorable stacked up against Gasol, Duncan, and Yao. Of course Howard is the cream of the crop, but after him, I think Bogut is top five.

But regardless, on topic, I still look at the Heat as the Big Three and scrubs. Miller is a fine signing, but not a stud. Ilgauskus' numbers are dropping like a rock and he's already 35. Who are the other players there? Joel Anthony? Dexter Pittman? It's pretty obvious that other than the big three, Chalmers and Miller are the two best players. I'm not saying they can't improve with time, but this won't be a good team as far as having an actual rotation and bench for another 2 years or so.

I wouldn't call Udonis a scrub. He is a very solid player who took much less money to stay in Miami. Also Anthony is a young developing center. Same for the PG. Carlos Arroyo is a solid PG backup. With the addition of Magluire at center, Ilgauskus will not be a needed factor.

This is an interesting move.  The Heat bought out this guy's contract and then gave him the minimum.  A little fishy, but it looks like we have our first guy who left a good amount of money on the table:  http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5390603


If you have an owner willing to spend, this could be a way to get around the salary cap.  Buy out a guy, shake his hand with a wink, and re-sign him to the minimum.  I guess it depends how much the buy out counts against the salary cap, if at all.  It could be a good way to get guys out of long term deals though.

Several have posted here, calling it the Big Three and scrubs and calling some of the other signees stiffs.

Naturally with getting the big 3, there will not be much opportunity to attract more all stars right now with the salary cap.

Haslem and Miller are about 10 year vets who will fill in off the bench and do a good job. Ilgauskas has been in the league aboot 12 years and has a career average of about 14ppg and 8 rebounds. he is a two time all star, so he is not a stiff.

With Wade, James and Bosh supplying about 80% of the horse/fire power, the Heat only need role players, and are landing more than adequate ones.