MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: ChicosBailBonds on July 01, 2010, 03:42:32 PM
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Look, this is pretty simple. People can spin this all over the place and say he was told about Prep school, or other schools do it, or basketball is big time business, etc, etc.
Let's get to the heart of the matter.
If you sign a kid to a NLI, it is a CONTRACT...a COMMITMENT.
What is the RIGHT THING TO DO....knowing he was academically qualified and hadn't broken any laws (like Saunders which Pakuni skipped over in his comparison).
Now, some of you might say the right thing to do is honor the commitment but we got better so you don't care about Newbill. Fine, just admit it.
Some of you might say we should honor the commitment no matter what. It's part of what MU should be all about. Fine.
Some of you might say a commitment never existed, in which case I'd love to ask you what the hell a NLI is.
This is pretty simple. What was the RIGHT THING TO DO?
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It must be nice to see the world in black/white terms.
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Why do you hate everything Buzz does?
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It must be nice to see the world in black/white terms.
So when a kid signs a NLI, MU should not honor it....assuming he hasn't broken any laws and is academically eligible? Is that what you're saying? Forget about the nonsense of a prep school, I'm asking a straight, fundamental question. Should we honor our commitments?
As for the prep school, it makes no damn sense. Why on earth would someone sign a NLI if he were going to prep school? Why? On what planet does that provide any type of advantage at all for the student athlete? I'd love to hear the non black and white answer on that.
Thanks
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Look, this is pretty simple. People can spin this all over the place and say he was told about Prep school, or other schools do it, or basketball is big time business, etc, etc.
Let's get to the heart of the matter.
If you sign a kid to a NLI, it is a CONTRACT...a COMMITMENT.
What is the RIGHT THING TO DO....knowing he was academically qualified and hadn't broken any laws (like Saunders which Pakuni skipped over in his comparison).
Now, some of you might say the right thing to do is honor the commitment but we got better so you don't care about Newbill. Fine, just admit it.
Some of you might say we should honor the commitment no matter what. It's part of what MU should be all about. Fine.
Some of you might say a commitment never existed, in which case I'd love to ask you what the hell a NLI is.
This is pretty simple. What was the RIGHT THING TO DO?
Last time you went with the bold, your foot was planted firmly in your mouth.
Does a NLI have to be upheld, but a man's word to another man doesn't?
If contracts should not be broken, should TC still be at MU and Buzz in Orleans?
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So we should have honored the commitment and hired the dean from Seattle. Actually, in this case, I lean in your direction. Even though it was technically allowable, it feels icky.
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Buzz's job is to make Marquette basketball the best it can be. He told DJ what would happen if someone better came yet DJ still chose to sign it. Someone better came and what Buzz told him would happen did.
Buzz made the right move and made Marquette basketball better.
As for NLIs, they are pretty worthless in my opinion. A player can ask out of a NLI for any BS reason they can think of.
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Apparently the right thing to do is to have as many threads as possible actively talking about this subject.
Wasn't there some concept going around that MU was only able to do this because DJ had yet to submit his application to the school? If that's the case, the right thing to do was to recognize that the kid has yet to even apply to the school and a better option became available, so we replaced the kid that seemingly was already dilly dallying around his his commitment to MU.
It's a two way street. After reading one of the other threads I was under the assumption that DJ had yet to fulfill his part of the commitment, allowing MU to back out of their end. If that assumption is correct, then I believe MU did the right thing.
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So when a kid signs a NLI, MU should not honor it....assuming he hasn't broken any laws and is academically eligible? Is that what you're saying? Forget about the nonsense of a prep school, I'm asking a straight, fundamental question. Should we honor our commitments?
As for the prep school, it makes no damn sense. Why on earth would someone sign a NLI if he were going to prep school? Why? On what planet does that provide any type of advantage at all for the student athlete? I'd love to hear the non black and white answer on that.
Thanks
In your world, there is only one type of NLI . . . an absolute, binding, black/white NLI. If IWB's story is to be believed, there are shades of NLIs (some absolute, binding, black/white and some that are contingent on other factors beyond the student's control).
You're trying to take what happened and jam it into your world where there are only absolute, binding, black/white NLIs. That's not reality.
2nd paragraph: There are plausible explanations. He hoped against hope that Buzz wouldn't find anyone for "his" scholarship and he'd get to come here. He was able to walk around for months and say he had a BE offer. The recruiting process is a difficult time for athletes (being pressured) and signing an NLI ends that.
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I tend to agree with this analysis. Admittedly, I don't pay close attention to recruiting, but "wait listing" someone who you've given an offer to, and they've accepted it via NLI, seems irregular. I mean, it works out great for the school, as they can dump the ugly girl for a prettier one. But the recruit gets hosed.
One would expect future border line / hidden gem type recruits would heed this story before ending their recruitment process and selecting MU.
This whole episode seems so .. Un-Buzz like.
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As for the prep school, it makes no damn sense. Why on earth would someone sign a NLI if he were going to prep school? Why? On what planet does that provide any type of advantage at all for the student athlete? I'd love to hear the non black and white answer on that.
Looks like Echo beat me to it. Apparently MU was his "dream school" so why not sign the NLI and hope no one better comes along?
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So when a kid signs a NLI, MU should not honor it....assuming he hasn't broken any laws and is academically eligible? Is that what you're saying? Forget about the nonsense of a prep school, I'm asking a straight, fundamental question. Should we honor our commitments?
As for the prep school, it makes no damn sense. Why on earth would someone sign a NLI if he were going to prep school? Why? On what planet does that provide any type of advantage at all for the student athlete? I'd love to hear the non black and white answer on that.
Thanks
Why shouldn't head coaches honor their contracts...it's a commitment. Why do players transfer or opt out of their commitments? (Trevor Mbwake, Tyshawn Taylor, etc) There are so many more issues in play now a days that you can't live in black in white especially in a "what have you done for me lately" world. If Buzz doesn't win he looses his job...and why don't we wait 3-5 years to see if this happens again...we seem to have to wait to justify his early success but not his early mistakes.
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You're trying to take what happened and jam it into your world where there are only absolute, binding, black/white NLIs. That's not reality.
That is reality. The NLI is 100% binding on the player's side of the agreement. The player can ask out all he wants, but the school is under no obligation to actually grant the release. Apparently the same cannot be said of the school's side of the agreement.
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That is reality. The NLI is 100% binding on the player's side of the agreement. The player can ask out all he wants, but the school is under no obligation to actually grant the release. Apparently the same cannot be said of the school's side of the agreement.
You said it yourself, it's not binding on the school and the school can put caveats on it (we'll honor this IF . . .) So, as I said previously, 100% binding (100% meaning both sides) NLI do not exist, contrary to what CBB and apparently you think.
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The right thing to do was honor the commitment. If a coach and university extends a LOI to a recruit and then accepts it when the athlete sends it back in, then the school should honor the commitment. If the coach tells the recruit that they will take the kid as long as they can't find someone else at another position or someone better, then the scholarship should not be offered until the coach is satisfied that is the case. Once the coach accepts the LOI then the player should not be given a release just because a better player is available.
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You said it yourself, it's not binding on the school and the school can put caveats on it (we'll honor this IF . . .) So, as I said previously, 100% binding (100% meaning both sides) NLI do not exist, contrary to what CBB and apparently you think.
Not to start trouble here, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you haven't read Newbill's NLI. Neither have I. None of us knows what the letter said, so I think it's kind of silly for any of us to base our argument on what was in that letter. I won't dispute that the letter might have had caveats, but I have no idea.
If I'm wrong, and you have seen the letter, my apologies.
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You said it yourself, it's not binding on the school and the school can put caveats on it (we'll honor this IF . . .) So, as I said previously, 100% binding (100% meaning both sides) NLI do not exist, contrary to what CBB and apparently you think.
I was being sarcastic with my last statement, because if that's true then the whole concept of a NLI is a horrible, horrible thing that needs to be done away with entirely. A contract that exists solely to protect giant institutions from the big, bad 18 year old amateur student-athletes?
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Unfortunately, Newbill's rampant lesbianism got in the way. Buzz should have known better.
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The right thing to do? If you are Newbill, and you expect a 4-year irrevocable schollie regardless of talent progression, then go to Wisconsin.
If you are Buzz, and people expect (and you are paid) to field the best team possible, then you tell DJ that the contingency on his offer has gone into effect, and he will have to go prep or go elsewhere.
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Not to start trouble here, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you haven't read Newbill's NLI. Neither have I. None of us knows what the letter said, so I think it's kind of silly for any of us to base our argument on what was in that letter. I won't dispute that the letter might have had caveats, but I have no idea.
If I'm wrong, and you have seen the letter, my apologies.
I don't know what the letter said. I was basing my statement off of IWB's post on the other message board . . . which Newbill's disappointed/surprised reactions don't seem to contradict.
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Unfortunately, Newbill's rampant lesbianism got in the way. Buzz should have known better.
I'll admit it...I laughed. Out loud. Somebody should come up with an easier way for me to express my amusement...
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I was being sarcastic with my last statement, because if that's true then the whole concept of a NLI is a horrible, horrible thing that needs to be done away with entirely. A contract that exists solely to protect giant institutions from the big, bad 18 year old amateur student-athletes?
Yeah, that's basically how an NLI works. Total protection for the schools, none for the student athletes. It should also be stated that student-athletes are not required to sign a NLI by the NCAA. Why they choose to do so, I have no idea.
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The right thing to do was honor the commitment. If a coach and university extends a LOI to a recruit and then accepts it when the athlete sends it back in, then the school should honor the commitment. If the coach tells the recruit that they will take the kid as long as they can't find someone else at another position or someone better, then the scholarship should not be offered until the coach is satisfied that is the case. Once the coach accepts the LOI then the player should not be given a release just because a better player is available.
OK, that's your opinion. It can be done that way and was done that way (according to the IWB post on the other message board).
If a 17 year-old-kid + a gaggle of advisers agree to a situation where the kid gets a scholarship if the team doesn't find anyone better and gets released if they do . . . I don't have a problem with that. Apparently you do.
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Yeah, that's basically how an NLI works. Total protection for the schools, none for the student athletes. It should also be stated that student-athletes are not required to sign a NLI by the NCAA. Why they choose to do so, I have no idea.
If DJ would have:
1. Submitted his application
2. Been accepted to MU
3. Sign a NLI to MU
Could MU have backed out after that point?
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So we should have honored the commitment and hired the dean from Seattle. Actually, in this case, I lean in your direction. Even though it was technically allowable, it feels icky.
Chicos, If I remember correctly, you were OK withdrawing the offer to Jodi O'Brien. How do you square that with your post on this topic?
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The thing I keep having a problem with is...
Didn't Buzz say that one of our players is going prep, and he knows who he is?
Yet DJ...
May not be going prep, could go to another school.
Hoped/didn't think he was going prep, but was going to MU.
I don't recall Buzz qualifying it with a maybe, but maybe my memory is going. So if this was the plan all along, why didn't someone tell DJ that it was a sure thing that he wouldn't be on the MU court this year?
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OK, that's your opinion. It can be done that way and was done that way (according to the IWB post on the other message board).
If a 17 year-old-kid + a gaggle of advisers agree to a situation where the kid gets a scholarship if the team doesn't find anyone better and gets released if they do . . . I don't have a problem with that. Apparently you do.
Yep, I do. The coach should not have offered the scholarship if that was the case. It's not fair to the student athlete, makes a mockery of the LOI and it can cause damage to the coach's reputation when it comes to future recruits.
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In your world, there is only one type of NLI . . . an absolute, binding, black/white NLI. If IWB's story is to be believed, there are shades of NLIs (some absolute, binding, black/white and some that are contingent on other factors beyond the student's control).
You're trying to take what happened and jam it into your world where there are only absolute, binding, black/white NLIs. That's not reality.
2nd paragraph: There are plausible explanations. He hoped against hope that Buzz wouldn't find anyone for "his" scholarship and he'd get to come here. He was able to walk around for months and say he had a BE offer. The recruiting process is a difficult time for athletes (being pressured) and signing an NLI ends that.
From the NLI website
ADDITIONAL GUIDELINES
For additional information regarding the NLI program, visit the NLI Web site:
ANNUAL INSTITUTIONAL COMMITMENT: Each NLI member institution is required to file with its conference office on an annual basis a copy of the NLI Institutional Commitment form. The document must be signed and dated by the institution's director of athletics prior to submission to the conference office.
DELIVERY OF THE NLI: Per NCAA Bylaw 13.1.6.7, any in-person, off-campus contact made with a prospective student-athlete for the purposes of signing an NLI or other commitment to attend the institution or attendance at activities related to the signing of an NLI or other commitment to attend the institution, shall be prohibited. Further, per NCAA Bylaw 13.1.6.7.1, in-person, off-campus delivery of an NLI by an institutional staff member shall be prohibited. The NLI may be delivered and received by express mail, courier service, regular mail, facsimile machine or electronic mail.
NO ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS ALLOWED TO NLI: No additions or deletions shall be made to the NLI or the Release Request form.
Seems to me there's only one version of the NLI according to the NCAA.
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From the NLI website
ADDITIONAL GUIDELINES
For additional information regarding the NLI program, visit the NLI Web site:
ANNUAL INSTITUTIONAL COMMITMENT: Each NLI member institution is required to file with its conference office on an annual basis a copy of the NLI Institutional Commitment form. The document must be signed and dated by the institution's director of athletics prior to submission to the conference office.
DELIVERY OF THE NLI: Per NCAA Bylaw 13.1.6.7, any in-person, off-campus contact made with a prospective student-athlete for the purposes of signing an NLI or other commitment to attend the institution or attendance at activities related to the signing of an NLI or other commitment to attend the institution, shall be prohibited. Further, per NCAA Bylaw 13.1.6.7.1, in-person, off-campus delivery of an NLI by an institutional staff member shall be prohibited. The NLI may be delivered and received by express mail, courier service, regular mail, facsimile machine or electronic mail.
NO ADDITIONS OR DELETIONS ALLOWED TO NLI: No additions or deletions shall be made to the NLI or the Release Request form.
Seems to me there's only one version of the NLI according to the NCAA.
Ebanks and Holloway, New York City area stars from the Class of 2008, both originally signed Letters of Intent to attend Indiana. But both - knowing that then Indiana coach Kelvin Sampson had already left one school (Oklahoma) for another (Indiana) - added provisions, saying they would be released from their commitment if Sampson were no longer the coach.
Their concern about Sampson proved fortuitous. Sampson did not leave for another school but he was forced to resign in the wake of a phone call scandal. Both Ebanks and Holloway were released from their commitments.
Such stipulations have since been outlawed by the NCAA, which says recruits are making a commitment to a school, not a coach. But in an era when coaches show little loyalty to their schools and schools show little loyalty to their coaches - four from major conferences have been fired already - some wonder why recruits lose their ability to move on if the coach that recruited them is no longer there.
http://nj.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1066420
I didn't mean it literally, but you are correct.
Apparently (I think, from doing some cursory reading on the subject), a LOI is not binding in the institution until the kid is accepted. So, schools can refuse to honor a LOI for academic reasons. Once the kid is accepted, (I think) it's a done-deal.
This is probably why Newbill was not accepted yet and what I meant by a non-black and white LOI.
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"What's the right thing to do?"
1) Support the coach. Something tells me you didn't rail on TC when essentially the same thing was done to Damian Saunders (even though the timing of that was much worse).
2) Support the team's newest member - welcome to MU, Jamil!
3) Stop talking about it when you don't know the whole story. Your just stirring the pot. This has been beaten to death over and over and over...
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It must be nice to see the world in black/white terms.
He said, yes, but I can’t ignore my numbers –
I’ve got a chart that spells it out in black and white.
I said, yes, but I see the world in color –
kind of puts it all in a different light.
- David M. Bailey
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If DJ would have:
1. Submitted his application
2. Been accepted to MU
3. Sign a NLI to MU
Could MU have backed out after that point?
It appears not:
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/nli/NLI/About+the+NLI/ (http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/nli/NLI/About+the+NLI/)
Although number 2 is totally in the hands of the institution. They can not admit him at any point, ala Damian Saunders.
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From May 10
Buzz was very candid at the event in LA.
We are going to have a few more signings and he said some of the current players signed will not be coming in. Very interesting comments as to why he has signed so many guys with the intention some will not enroll. buzz went on to say the guys know who they are and it is not a suprise.
He also said Roseboro left because his dad is seriously ill. He was not run off, contrary to reports.
JB was singed sight unseen by Buzz. That was something I was not aware of. He was touted by his coach and Buzz signed him.
He addressed the Big 10 issue. If Rutgers go, who cares. If Rutgers and a few opthes go it will have a negative impact on MU. The BE has been very good financially to MU. There are so many scenarios it is hard to quantify until it happens.
Recruiting is a dirty business. VERY few programs are on the up and up.
Buzz talked and took questions for over 90 minutes and then stayed after to chat with folks. Solid turnout in LA.
Buzz said campus visits are totally overrated and add almost no value. 48 hours anywhere will not convince a kid to go anywhere. Interesting take.
If we take Buzz at his word, then DJ knew he might not be playing at MU. Still does not make it right in my book, but as Buzz said, college recruiting is a dirty business.
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Since Chicos wants to see the World in black and white, can I see this from a completely objectivist point of view?
Buzz can either make the team better when given the opportunity
or
Buzz can choose not to make the team better when given the opportunity
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Right thing for Buzz Williams to do is put the best possible basketball product on the court each season, within NCAA guidelines. The move this week only helps accomplish that goal.
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Why do you hate everything Buzz does?
I don't hate everything he does, not even close. I'm very pleased he's our coach, that doesn't mean I'm pleased at this decision. I love my kids, but there's crap they do that is wrong. What we are doing is wrong. Why are you covering for this action? Does Rivals.com hate everything Buzz does? Why are they coming to the same conclusion? When is a commitment not a commitment?
I have to laugh at the continued Damian Saunders comparisons. Saunders BROKE THE LAW, for some reason this little factoid seems to be glossed over, not sure why. Nevertheless, I don't like the idea of over signing to begin with. All it does is invite this kind of crap. I could not care less if other programs are doing it. This just in, these are KIDS and these are their futures and their lives we are talking about. Some of you make this out like we're trading wheat futures.
Yeah, it's a business. Yeah, other programs do it. Yeah, some guys cheat on their wives. Yeah, some people fudge their taxes. What is the RIGHT THING TO DO. This has nothing to do with hatred, it's an easy question. He signed a NLI, honor it.
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I have to laugh at the continued Damian Saunders comparisons. Saunders BROKE THE LAW, for some reason this little factoid seems to be glossed over, not sure why.
That might be a valid point if MU refused to admit Saunders for that reason.
But Tom Crean very clearly stated that the arrest had nothing to do with Saunders being denied admission. To the contrary, Crean went out of his way to say he believed Saunders was guilty of little more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people. In fact, the university denied his admission at least two months after learning of his arrest. If the arrest were the reason, why wait so long? And why not say it's the reason? Certainly denying admission based on a criminal offense would not have caused much indignation among the Marquette faithful.
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Why do you hate everything Buzz does?
Better question, how did he amass 7,000 posts on a message board.
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What we are doing is wrong. Why are you covering for this action? Does Rivals.com hate everything Buzz does? Why are they coming to the same conclusion? When is a commitment not a commitment?
Yeah, it's a business. Yeah, other programs do it. Yeah, some guys cheat on their wives. Yeah, some people fudge their taxes. What is the RIGHT THING TO DO. This has nothing to do with hatred, it's an easy question. He signed a NLI, honor it.
Are you okay with what happened if it played out just as IWB said it did?
Do you think/know that Buzz saying that the current group of recruits weren't going to all show up was kept a secret from DJ?
You say that he signed a NLI and we should honor it, yet you say we shouldn't honor in the case of an athlete doing something illegal. So what you're really saying is he signed a NLI and we should honor it unless he makes a mistake. Was not filling out the paperwork on time a sign to Buzz that he wasn't focused enough to show the improvement a player of his caliber would need to make to play BEAST ball? What's a big enough mistake to warrant not honoring the NLI?
Could DJ have done something to upset MU, but Buzz is taking the high road and not making it public, while DJ throws a fit that MU is now not taking him? Which would actually make Buzz look better in the eyes of those that matter (future recruits).
I doubt all or even some of the above happened, but my point is you don't know, so everything you type is an assumption. Should MU honor all NLI's if the player does exactly what is asked of him? I'm not sure they need to if they clearly tell the player that he could end up needing to give his spot up if they find a better fit for MU.
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Before this I thought NLIs were a case of black & white as Chicos insinuates. I'm now convinced there are numerous shades of gray. IWB's story seems very plausible and acceptable. How naive I was!
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I have to laugh at the continued Damian Saunders comparisons. Saunders BROKE THE LAW, for some reason this little factoid seems to be glossed over, not sure why. Nevertheless, I don't like the idea of over signing to begin with. All it does is invite this kind of crap. I could not care less if other programs are doing it. This just in, these are KIDS and these are their futures and their lives we are talking about. Some of you make this out like we're trading wheat futures.
Saunders was arrested for carrying that 'dank' aka the sticky green. This is hardly a major offense in any sense. Remember people make laws and sometimes those laws are flawed and laughable. With that logic I guess if abortion is illegal and a women gets an abortion then she BROKE THE LAW and should be banished. You know else BROKE THE LAW slaves who escaped from 'their owners' and so did most of the south before Lyndon Johnson came along used the national guard to enforce the existing civil rights laws. Laws have changed over time so the logic of using the 'broke the law' argument is fatally flawed as is your 'do the right thing' mantra.
DJ should have followed up with Williams every couple of weeks if he was serious. I don't like it but then again it is Williams job to place the best team on the court since that is part of the job. Sometimes the means justify the end and in this case they do!
So quit with the 'do the right thing' crap and get off your high moral horse. . . you come across at a total tool with a limited capacity to understand things.
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Chicos says what's the right thing to do, as if he REALLY cares about the welfare of DJ Newbill.
I'm willing to bet that Chicos could give a rat's ass about DJ Newbill. This whole thread is just about feeding his massive ego and an attempt to disparage Buzz.
There's lots of suffering in the world, Chicos. You must be so upset, how are you dealing with it?
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I've changed my position on this. Chicos is right. We made a committment and we should honor it even if LeBron James got his eligibility and wanted to come to MU. We are bigger than any one player and have a responsibility to live up to our Jesuit ideals.
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I've changed my position on this. Chicos is right. We made a committment and we should honor it even if LeBron James got his eligibility and wanted to come to MU. We are bigger than any one player and have a responsibility to live up to our Jesuit ideals.
Here, here. This is about doing the right thing. Shades of gray are convenient for those who lack integrity. Saying we don't know the full story.... convenient excuse. Saying other institutions do the same thing or worse... justifying.
Even if the IWB story of things is 100% true, I still find issues on how this was handled. At the very least the perception of the matter is not good.
Marquette boosters can convince themselves nothing was handled wrong here but a true neutral party would have concerns. I hope I'm wrong about this but if Newbill's statement to the press was an actual quote.... not good.
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Marquette University Athletics Department
Our mission is to strive for excellence in academics, athletics, leadership, and service to others in the Jesuit tradition, while embracing equity in opportunity, good sportsmanship, and ethical conduct.
The information is still hazy and evolving (and confusing to me), but in the end, does this pass MU AD's mission? The key missing piece for me is why the kid had not completed his admission application which would include sending in his transcripts? Not so clear cut then to me. That seems to indicate that MU and Newbill had a conditional agreement...and along came Wilson.
As sour as it is, the reality is this kid would be the 14th man off the bench behind Frozena. Better that he move on and find a place where he can go for his goals. I don't think doing a You Tube interview about MU will help him in the coaching circle to find a new suitor. And, the fact is, Buzz will be less inclined to help him in that case.
Whatever the case, this was clearly one of a few pr recruiting mistakes by Buzz as he is shoots for the stars (although the trade is better). Frankly, this kid should never have been signed a couple of months ago. Clearly a major pr stumble that won't soon go away.
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Even if the IWB story of things is 100% true, I still find issues on how this was handled. At the very least the perception of the matter is not
That's fine, but I don't think Buzz was unethical if that's the case. Was is a dumb move, probably, but it wouldn't seem unethical to me. I just hope that's how it really played out.
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Since Chicos wants to see the World in black and white, can I see this from a completely objectivist point of view?
Buzz can either make the team better when given the opportunity
or
Buzz can choose not to make the team better when given the opportunity
I want Buzz to make the program better, without crapping on a person's life in the process. Sorry, that's just how I am.
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Right thing for Buzz Williams to do is put the best possible basketball product on the court each season, within NCAA guidelines. The move this week only helps accomplish that goal.
There is a right way to do things. Winning is important, winning at all costs is not. I would hope we aspire to some standards above and beyond just what is written in the NCAA guidelines.
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Are you okay with what happened if it played out just as IWB said it did?
No, I'm not because I don't understand why on earth we would have let a kid sign a NLI and take away all his options if he was going to Prep school. Further, I don't think this is exactly how it happened. If Wilson doesn't come along, are we to believe that Newbill was going Prep? Don't think so.
Do you think/know that Buzz saying that the current group of recruits weren't going to all show up was kept a secret from DJ? I don't know, he, his AAU coach and his high school coach sure seemed surprised by it? Why is that the case? Either really piss poor communication by our staff or a LOT of people on the other side heard it wrong.
You say that he signed a NLI and we should honor it, yet you say we shouldn't honor in the case of an athlete doing something illegal. So what you're really saying is he signed a NLI and we should honor it unless he makes a mistake. Was not filling out the paperwork on time a sign to Buzz that he wasn't focused enough to show the improvement a player of his caliber would need to make to play BEAST ball? What's a big enough mistake to warrant not honoring the NLI?
No, what I'm really saying is that an ILLEGAL act (not just a mistake) is grounds for the NLI being pulled. I think this is common sense. I wouldn't want a school to be forced to take a kid who just committed rape, busted for drugs trafficking, etc.....ILLEGAL behavior that results in a PUBLIC arrest is a lot different than not finishing his application yet. We all know that if this was a 4 star or 5 star player, the application canard would never have been pulled. It's a total BS excuse, and embarrassing quite frankly. Can you imagine if another coached pulled that one, this board would be going insane.
Could DJ have done something to upset MU, but Buzz is taking the high road and not making it public, while DJ throws a fit that MU is now not taking him? Which would actually make Buzz look better in the eyes of those that matter (future recruits).
Yup, that's possible. If that's the case, then Buzz isn't playing the game right because public perception is that this kid got thrown under the bus.
I doubt all or even some of the above happened, but my point is you don't know, so everything you type is an assumption. Should MU honor all NLI's if the player does exactly what is asked of him? I'm not sure they need to if they clearly tell the player that he could end up needing to give his spot up if they find a better fit for MU.
Correct, I don't know...I'm going off what I see, hear, etc. I find it a bid odd that we would sign a kid to a NLI and cut him....only when just by happen stance a better player is available. Much too convenient. I find it even odder that a kid would sign a NLI with a school that supposedly told him there was a very good chance he would never step on campus...why in the hell would a kid do this? Makes zero sense. I believe we should honor commitments.
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Things would really get interesting if Newbill decided to sue to enforce the contract. As far as I understand it an NLI is binding for one year, unless the player is not admitted to the university. The fact that Newbill has not submitted some paper work is or was a correctable error.
The right thing to do was not have Newbill sign an NLI in the first place. If Newbill wanted to go to MU so bad, he could have waited to see if a spot was oepn and not sign NLI, which limits his current options.
The right thing to do, since the NLI was signed, would be for the Big East to allow Newbill to sign with any other Big East school. The fact that he can't is my biggest issue.
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I want Buzz to make the program better, without crapping on a person's life in the process. Sorry, that's just how I am.
I'm sorry, but playing college basketball for Marquette is NOT somebody's life for Christ sake.
He can still go play college basketball somewhere. He can still go get a quality education somewhere. Hell, he could use this as motivation, go blow up somewhere, make the NBA, raise a family have grandkids and die a happy old man, completely content with his lot in life.
Get real.
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Anyone else get the feeling that Chico's date dumped him the night before the prom so that she could go with the star athlete?
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I'm sorry, but playing college basketball for Marquette is NOT somebody's life for Christ sake.
He can still go play college basketball somewhere. He can still go get a quality education somewhere. Hell, he could use this as motivation, go blow up somewhere, make the NBA, raise a family have grandkids and die a happy old man, completely content with his lot in life.
Get real.
You get real. On June 30th, what college options are available to him that were available to him back in March? Few, if any. This is a person's life. If this was your son or daughter, you would be pissed as hell. It doesn't matter if the kid can go play somewhere else, his options have been curtailed seriously at this point. Does he now have to go somewhere he didn't really want to go? Does he have to sit out a year? Etc, etc. Those are life decisions and LIFE AFFECTING. Sorry you can't see the obvious and make it sound like he can just pick up the phone and get added to a DI team on July 1st, less two months before school starts and after almost all scholarships around the country are GONE!
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You get real. On June 30th, what college options are available to him that were available to him back in March? Few, if any. This is a person's life. If this was your son or daughter, you would be pissed as hell. It doesn't matter if the kid can go play somewhere else, his options have been curtailed seriously at this point. Does he now have to go somewhere he didn't really want to go? Does he have to sit out a year? Etc, etc. Those are life decisions and LIFE AFFECTING. Sorry you can't see the obvious and make it sound like he can just pick up the phone and get added to a DI team on July 1st, less two months before school starts and after almost all scholarships around the country are GONE!
If it was my son then he wouldn't have signed knowing that this scenario was a very real possibility. I feel for DJ because I think he got some bad advice from the people close to him.
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Why do you all pretend we know the whole story, then dig into a postion? None of us know anything - at least not much.
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You get real. On June 30th, what college options are available to him that were available to him back in March? Few, if any.
Apparently plenty, at least according to Brad Forster:
" Many schools have already called to offer DJ a scholarship. He will weigh all offers and probably make a decision in the very near future. "
Does he now have to go somewhere he didn't really want to go?
Ummm. No. I feel fairly confident saying nobody will force DJ Newbill to go anywhere he doesn't want to go. Especially with the offers rolling in. Probably even from a few schools that aren't one of "those" programs, like Marquette.
Does he have to sit out a year?
No. See: Roseboro, Brett; Saunders, Damian.
In fact, you already knew the answer to this question, but somehow saw fit to throw it in anyhow.
Cause it was dramatic.
Etc, etc. Those are life decisions and LIFE AFFECTING. Sorry you can't see the obvious and make it sound like he can just pick up the phone and get added to a DI team on July 1st, less two months before school starts and after almost all scholarships around the country are GONE!
And yet that's exactly what Brett Roseboro and Damian Saunders did.
They accomplished the impossible, it seems.
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Even if Newbill signs with North Carolina and becomes a lottery pick what does that after to do with whether Marquette did the right thing? I hope Newbill lands somewhere he is happy with but even if he does, it does not mitigate whether Marquette did something that may have lacked integrity.
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Chico's - it's time to take your man-crush on Tom Crean and be a full time Indiana fan (oh, crap, the tan one runs off as many recruits as any one in college basketball so not sure how your morals will fit there as well).
Really - whether one approves or disapproves of the recent events of MU recruting, your desire to bash Buzz at every given moment is unwelcome and time for you to stop being a MU fan (and stop posting here),
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So, we have all these phantom offers from other BEast schools, but today in an articel from DJ's own mouth:
Newbill said LaSalle, Drexel, Niagara and Rider also had expressed interest in him.
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/breaking/sports_breaking/20100701_Marquette_withdraws_scholarship_offer_to_Newbill.html#ixzz0sUWAHHou
I thought I paid attention to Marquette basketball. Perhaps Chico can enlighten me. Which one of those schools are in the Big East?
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My guess is since he can't go to another Big East school there would be no Big East interest, unless the school tries to do what UW did with Brust and appeal. However, I always thought when he committed that the offers could be coming from those Big East schools, not that he had them in hand. I'm probably misremembering.
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He was talking about when he committed to Marquette.
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Yup your right. My mistake.
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Here, here. This is about doing the right thing. Shades of gray are convenient for those who lack integrity. Saying we don't know the full story.... convenient excuse. Saying other institutions do the same thing or worse... justifying.
Even if the IWB story of things is 100% true, I still find issues on how this was handled. At the very least the perception of the matter is not good.
Marquette boosters can convince themselves nothing was handled wrong here but a true neutral party would have concerns. I hope I'm wrong about this but if Newbill's statement to the press was an actual quote.... not good.
+1
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Anyone else get the feeling that Chico's date dumped him the night before the prom so that she could go with the star athlete?
LOL.
If you only knew....I married the Homecoming Queen numb nuts.
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If it was my son then he wouldn't have signed knowing that this scenario was a very real possibility. I feel for DJ because I think he got some bad advice from the people close to him.
And how do you know this scenario existed? How do you know this is what was communicated to DJ? His AAU Coach, High School coach and Newbill sure haven't expressed that. Or are you automatically only going to gravitate to one version?
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Why do you all pretend we know the whole story, then dig into a postion? None of us know anything - at least not much.
For me it's because I still have a problem even with the most positive spin that has been put out by those trying to rationalize the MU side of things.
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Chico's - it's time to take your man-crush on Tom Crean and be a full time Indiana fan (oh, crap, the tan one runs off as many recruits as any one in college basketball so not sure how your morals will fit there as well).
Really - whether one approves or disapproves of the recent events of MU recruting, your desire to bash Buzz at every given moment is unwelcome and time for you to stop being a MU fan (and stop posting here),
Madtown, I don't bash Buzz at every given moment, you're just wrong. I just don't have koolaid blinders on. I've complimented Buzz many many times over, you just don't bother to read it or ignore it on purpose.
I also don't have a man-crush on Crean...I had to work for the guy, I know what a complete a-hole he is more than 99% of people on here. It's one thing to deal with TC for 30 minutes at a function or an hour here or there, quite another to spend 60 to 70 hours a week.
And don't ever question my MU fandom...ever.
So now that you're 0 for 3, try again.
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For me it's because I still have a problem even with the most positive spin that has been put out by those trying to rationalize the MU side of things.
Why do you hate Buzz? You should stop posting here
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LOL.
If you only knew....I married the Homecoming Queen numb nuts.
You married your high school sweetheart?? How sad to not explore what is out there.
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Yeah, that's basically how an NLI works. Total protection for the schools, none for the student athletes. It should also be stated that student-athletes are not required to sign a NLI by the NCAA. Why they choose to do so, I have no idea.
Maybe because it is the only way for a kid to get a commitment (and a written one at that) from the school he expects to attend, and play for.
Maybe because signing (and having the school accept it) demonstrates that a decision has been made and the kid can stop looking elsewhere and other schools should stay off recruiting him.
It is only no protection for the student athlete when schools begin to undermine the integrity of the NLI, to pull back from the NLI as a demonstration of the school's commitment to the athlete. Almost regardless of the other things floating around this situation, Marquette did pull out of the NLI, and did so under Buzz's leadership.
Though I recognize that I don't know the extenuating circumstances, I can't quite move beyond this, especially in that Buzz presents himself as both honest and full of integrity. He may have been honest throughout, but I worry that his integrity has suffered (or at least the appearance of it).
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And how do you know this scenario existed? How do you know this is what was communicated to DJ? His AAU Coach, High School coach and Newbill sure haven't expressed that. Or are you automatically only going to gravitate to one version?
And how do you know this scenario did NOT exist? How do you know this was NOT communicated to DJ? Or are you automatically only going to gravitate to one version?
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Madtown, I don't bash Buzz at every given moment, you're just wrong. I just don't have koolaid blinders on. I've complimented Buzz many many times over, you just don't bother to read it or ignore it on purpose.
I also don't have a man-crush on Crean...I had to work for the guy, I know what a complete a-hole he is more than 99% of people on here. It's one thing to deal with TC for 30 minutes at a function or an hour here or there, quite another to spend 60 to 70 hours a week.
And don't ever question my MU fandom...ever.
So now that you're 0 for 3, try again.
I've only been on this site a few months, can't say I know you well enough to really make a fair judgment one way or the other. But when the controversies and MU-bashing come up, you do most often seem to be one of the guys spearheading the argument. Of your own accord, you seem to have done more criticizing than even the most ardent Bucky fan.
Again, I haven't really been here long enough to say, but when it comes to your fandom, it seems hard to balance your love for the program with your routine distaste for it. Maybe you're trying the tough love approach...just doesn't really seem that way.
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I've only been on this site a few months, can't say I know you well enough to really make a fair judgment one way or the other. But when the controversies and MU-bashing come up, you do most often seem to be one of the guys spearheading the argument. Of your own accord, you seem to have done more criticizing than even the most ardent Bucky fan.
Again, I haven't really been here long enough to say, but when it comes to your fandom, it seems hard to balance your love for the program with your routine distaste for it. Maybe you're trying the tough love approach...just doesn't really seem that way.
I've been on this site for a long time and I've personally known Chico for even longer. Anybody who thinks he doesn't absolutely love Marquette is completely wrong. There's a lot more I could say but this is enough: he's the biggest Marquette fan I know and nobody should ever doubt that.
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I posted this in another thread but I think it also answers the original question.
My synical guess is that these types of things happen more often than people realize but are usually managed by PR machines to prevent fans from seeing the proverbial cow being butchered.
I have problems with how this APPEARS to have been handled but I am also not naive enough to think that similliar situations don't happen across college sports on a consistent basis, and have probably happened at MU.
You're right, where is the line? That is an honest question. It is a slippery slope we college sports fans often find ourselves on. Is it fair/right for athletes to get accepted to a university that would not accept them as a general student? Is it okay to take risks on kids with character issues because they have talent? Is it right to recruit more athletes than a school has scholarships to keep those players from attending other schools? All of these things happen and are largely accepted as long as teams are winning.
I want to see MU win and I don't want MU to break the rules to do it. I also don't want MU to be perceived as more shady than the norm. Alot of that has to do with PR and image management. Buzz didn't break the rules but it APPEARS that we are getting awfully close to being perceived as a program that pushes the limits of the grey area. I think Buzz needs to learn from this and tighten up the ship a little bit.
College sports are not a black and white world. That being said, I don't want MU to break the rules or perpetually live in the grey area. I think if many took off the blue and gold colored glasses they would agree with me. I also think if this situation had happened during Crean's tenure, Chico's would be explaining how it may not be the best decision but it's a grey area. Likewise, many that are vehmently defending Buzz would be disgusted by the same action were it perpetuated by a more tan, less bald coach.
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+10
Excellent post, MUSF.
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You married your high school sweetheart?? How sad to not explore what is out there.
No need for that cheap shot. Getting married at an early age is easy. Staying married for so long is amazing. Good for him. His wife must have the patience of a saint though. ;)
For the record, I am disappointed that Marquette allowed the LOI to be signed. Hopefully it doesn't happen in this manner again.
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No need for that cheap shot. Getting married at an early age is easy. Staying married for so long is amazing. Good for him. His wife must have the patience of a saint though. ;)
For the record, I am disappointed that Marquette allowed the LOI to be signed. Hopefully it doesn't happen in this manner again.
For the record, no, I got married when I was 29....and we didn't even date in high school....I went to the Homecoming dance with the Senior princess. ;D
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And how do you know this scenario did NOT exist? How do you know this was NOT communicated to DJ? Or are you automatically only going to gravitate to one version?
Because logically speaking, it makes no sense. You don't sign a NLI to go to a school that may say you're not going to make it and you'll be cut. Why on earth would you do this and put yourself at risk? Makes no sense.
Quite frankly, we shouldn't be accepting LOIs from student athletes unless we're 100% committed, that way this stuff doesn't happen. That's the shame in all of this.
This action puts MU in a terrible light.
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Man, I cannot believe all the vitriol, slams, name calling etc. going on here.
Oh, I guess I can--just like politics.
The long and short is that Newbill get hosed, whether it was by MU or his advisers--likely it was by both.
This episode does not make me real proud of MU, although I will still follow them through thick and thin. I just get queasy looking at some of these recent deals: Roseboro, Maymon, Newbill, Mbao (and throw in M. Clark offer) and wonder if there is a trend here. It seems like we are averaging about two judgmental errors per year on recruits. Since you usually bring about 4 guys per year, a 50% failure rate sucks.
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Madtown, I don't bash Buzz at every given moment, you're just wrong. I just don't have koolaid blinders on. I've complimented Buzz many many times over, you just don't bother to read it or ignore it on purpose.
I also don't have a man-crush on Crean...I had to work for the guy, I know what a complete a-hole he is more than 99% of people on here. It's one thing to deal with TC for 30 minutes at a function or an hour here or there, quite another to spend 60 to 70 hours a week.
And don't ever question my MU fandom...ever.
So now that you're 0 for 3, try again.
You spent 70 hours a week with Crean? Explains many, many things. Doesn't excuse them, mind you. But it does explain them.
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Because logically speaking, it makes no sense. You don't sign a NLI to go to a school that may say you're not going to make it and you'll be cut. Why on earth would you do this and put yourself at risk? Makes no sense.
In other words, you don't know.
Logically speaking, a player might do this because 1) he didn't fully understand the agreement, 2) he didn't think MU would sign another player, 3) his advisors told him MU wouldn't sign another player, 4) his advisors kept him largely in the dark on this agreement, 5) he's a kid earning a scholarship to play college basketball and only heard what he wanted to hear.
I obviously don't know if any of this is true, but neither does anyone else on these boards. Therefore, I'm not going to present my presumptions as facts.
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Sometimes thinking logically doesn't get you the answer in recruiting and dealing with high school kids. I know you could look at some of my decisions when I was that age and I didn't make the logical choice.
It is a very real possibility that there was a breakdown in communication somewhere as alluded to in other threads and stuff. Maybe like was said an adviser handled a large part of the recruitment and didn't relay the information correctly to DJ. Maybe Monarch didn't relay it to the adviser or Newbill the right way. I think we just have to wait for more details to come out, I'm sure they will. There was an email circulating about the Maymon incident, maybe that will happen with this. However, we will probably never know the full story. Depending on who tells the story, it will be from a certain perspective.