MUScoop

Why is it every time someone posts something hopeful and/or optimistic about the survival of The Big East as we currently know it you two are always and I mean always there to burst their bubble?  For example if someone says Big 10 will stop expanding or the Big East might expand to 20 and add Kansas you both immediately jump in how that won't happen, won't last, won't work, won't make enough money,  and then spew more doom and gloom while praising the concept of the "mega-conference" expansion. 

No matter how much I might be against Nancy Pelosi and her agenda to sell the merits of her national health plan I knew her motivation as she had skin in the game and her legacy to her far left supporters was attached to getting it passed.   What I don't understand is why someone who posts 20 times a day about Marquette basketball would also be someone who constantly lays out their destruction.....seems counter-intuitive to me.

This current conference realignment is the biggest threat to the future of Marquette that we may ever have faced in our history.  This is bigger than any NCAA tournament game, bigger than losing a coach, a star player, recruit, etc.  If things spin not in our favor then we'll become at best a nice little mid-major like Dayton or something like that who gets some ok recruits and has a couple "big" opponents a year like Xavier that get the local alumni's dick in a knot but no national attention or viewers otherwise.  If things spin in our favor I think Buzz can win a national championship as I've mentioned before that I think Buzz is a budding basketball legend who does everything well from recruiting, to coaching to having a killer instinct.

I'm fully aware of the ramifications of all this potential movement and how it could impact a basketball only school like Marquette no matter how many strong selling points Marquette might have on the basketball front.   Marquette basketball is one of my passions that gives my life zest ....few things make me jump up and down and scream in joy like a Jimmy Butler buzzer beater. 

Having said the above all I can do is to be optimistic (fool that I may be) and hope we are stay "safe" and enjoy when people post happy/positive scenarios  that can keep us on our current plateau that won't have us on the outside looking in.  If you were a Wisconsin fan I could understand your posts as they will be sitting pretty if Marquette gets hurt and won't be losing any more key in-state recruits to us.  However if you're a Marquette fan do you really want to be one of ten posters left on this board in five years from now if Marquette is in a conference with Duquesne and St. Bonaventure?

I don't know...because we're realists.  Because the name of the game is money and of the 6 BCS conferences, the Big East is dead last by a HUGE margin in money.


Listen, I hope KU and KSU or some other combination can make a go of it, but in the end it seems patchwork to me and not long term.

The History of the Big East for basketball is gonna do more than you think. Jimmy B and Dixon are gonna have their way and keep their teams in the Big East

Quote from: jhags15 on June 13, 2010, 08:20:27 PM
The History of the Big East for basketball is gonna do more than you think. Jimmy B and Dixon are gonna have their way and keep their teams in the Big East

I hope you are right, but college basketball revenue is a spec of dust on an elephant.  That's why this is happening.

Don't believe it....why is one of the 3 greatest basketball programs of all time right now about to be WITHOUT A CONFERENCE or have to go to the MOUNTAIN WEST?  I'm talking of Kansas.

Because football runs the show gents.

Sorry but I'm realistic.  I don't think many on here have a good grasp on the resources that the SEC, Pac 10 and Big 10 will generate that the Big East will not be able to.  And we are getting all excited because a couple of schools that were rejected by the above three *might* join the Big East?  And that we are competing with a conference with membership the likes of Wyoming and New Mexico who doesn't even have a BCS bid?  Not to mention that if any of the big three invited them they'd turn the BE down pretty much instantly.  C'mon....

Even if the BE survives in a decent form, and MU stays part of it, the playing field has become even more skewed.  We will be playing against schools that are leveraging massive resources that we cannot touch.  Believe me, there is nothing I want more than status quo.  But the big schools are using their popularity to cause even more differentiation in revenue, and that is only going to hurt us in the long run.

Quote from: jhags15 on June 13, 2010, 08:20:27 PM
The History of the Big East for basketball is gonna do more than you think. Jimmy B and Dixon are gonna have their way and keep their teams in the Big East

Well, considering that not of the big conferences seems to want their schools, that's an easy thing to say.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 13, 2010, 08:15:08 PM
I don't know...because we're realists.  Because the name of the game is money and of the 6 BCS conferences, the Big East is dead last by a HUGE margin in money.


Listen, I hope KU and KSU or some other combination can make a go of it, but in the end it seems patchwork to me and not long term.

Chicos you remind me of a guy at the airport with me when I was once stranded at an airport in Cancun, Mexico for 12 hours.  Every 30 minutes he came back with more bad news and had a big smile on his face each time.  He was getting pleasure from bursting everyone's bubble and was almost crestfallen when a plane finally did come as he had no more bad news to deliver and had to go home and have a good night's sleep like the rest of us.  Sure he was a realist too and doubt he would even hold a job at Disney.


So I guess it's over......a sport where top coaches make $3MM a year and fill college arenas throughout the winter is "spec of dust on an elephant" and is not a profitable or sizeable niche of any kind worth preserving. 


Hopefully you'll read about a Texas sized meteor headed for earth tomorrow that will extinct the planet......that should be worth another 100 bubble bursting posts that you can provide about how we're all doomed.....an early Xmas present for you. 

Quote from: duanewade on June 13, 2010, 08:46:20 PM
Chicos you remind me of a guy at the airport with me when I was once stranded at an airport in Cancun, Mexico for 12 hours.  Every 30 minutes he came back with more bad news and had a big smile on his face each time.  He was getting pleasure from bursting everyone's bubble and was almost crestfallen when a plane finally did come as he had no more bad news to deliver and had to go home and have a good night's sleep like the rest of us.  Sure he was a realist too and doubt he would even hold a job at Disney.


So I guess it's over......a sport where top coaches make $3MM a year and fill college arenas throughout the winter is "spec of dust on an elephant" and is not a profitable or sizeable niche of any kind worth preserving. 


Hopefully you'll read about a Texas sized meteor headed for earth tomorrow that will extinct the planet......that should be worth another 100 bubble bursting posts that you can provide about how we're all doomed.....an early Xmas present for you. 

Duane, I'm actually quite a positive guy for most things.  I hope this all works out, nothing would make me happier.  The last thing in the world I want for MU is to be disadvantaged which is why all of this stuff breaks my heart.  I'm only taking my years of experience sports and television and coming to a realistic conclusion.  It's certainly nothing I'm cheering for, that I can assure you.

My opinion, however, is that some of you don't realize that basketball revenue is such a small thing that it doesn't matter much.  It matters a crapload to you, to me, to MU fans....but in the world of big time college athletics, it is a small small matter.  If it wasn't, Kansas and Kansas State (two top 5 programs last year, one top 3 all time) would not be sweating like crazy...would they?

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on June 13, 2010, 08:35:56 PM
Sorry but I'm realistic.  I don't think many on here have a good grasp on the resources that the SEC, Pac 10 and Big 10 will generate that the Big East will not be able to.  And we are getting all excited because a couple of schools that were rejected by the above three *might* join the Big East?  And that we are competing with a conference with membership the likes of Wyoming and New Mexico who doesn't even have a BCS bid?  Not to mention that if any of the big three invited them they'd turn the BE down pretty much instantly.  C'mon....

Even if the BE survives in a decent form, and MU stays part of it, the playing field has become even more skewed.  We will be playing against schools that are leveraging massive resources that we cannot touch.  Believe me, there is nothing I want more than status quo.  But the big schools are using their popularity to cause even more differentiation in revenue, and that is only going to hurt us in the long run.


Well, considering that not of the big conferences seems to want their schools, that's an easy thing to say.

No you're not a realist at all....a realist knows to expect the unexpected as there is no such thing as a sure thing and to never underestimate your enemies. 

Japan became an economic world power within 20 years after their country was decimated by war and did it by having to import all their natural resources and the extra expenses associated with this.....no one was predicting the "Japanese Miracle" and no one was predicting Butler to be a basket from winning the national championship three months ago in spite of the big resource disparity you eluded to. 

Chicos, I for one appreciate your posts and have no idea why this guy is busting your chops over this.

Fanaticism is a belief or behavior involving uncritical zeal, particularly for an extreme religious or political cause or in some cases sports, ...(wiki)
Skepticism  is an attitude of doubt or a disposition to incredulity either in general or toward a particular object.(Id)

You guys in this thread are "fans", in the truest, pure sense, who are critical of skeptics, that frustrate or force the restraint of our fanatical hopes and desires.

I see both sides to be needed--- maybe even on the same side of the coin--example: having rooted for teams intensely, but sufferring so much from losses, my skeptic overcomes my fan...so I tape the show...too nervous (or jinxing) to watch it, until I know I can "live" with the outcome. Time tested,extreme fans are coping by the healthy use of skeptic responses....both sides contribute to this board.

I trust both Chicos and Sultan have seen me disagree w/them too but I try to lay out facts, links or reasons...your personal frustrations are pointless, personal and counterproductive. And...in defense...I have never seen either of them  not be very open and responsive to factual inquiry and discussion (look at a current post betw each of us to see gentlemanly disagreements--now pending-lol).
Lets back it down and restrain from frustrations coming from all our extreme fan based views---we all are MU fans, never wanting anything but the best for us.

The monopolies will decide all this.  We heard from BTN/DTV.  PAC 10 is Fox Sports but Texas is the power player with where they want to go with a TV deal.  The East Coasters are with Disney.  Next up Comcast/NBC/Versus.  SEC with CBS.  ND far more important in all this than they are given credit for with their NBC deal.  Comcast and DTV/BTN have been at odds at every deal (NHL/BTN).  There is a reason Tagliabue is involved with the BE.  

Chicos is the expert here but I somehow don't think that Disney/ESPN/ABC is gonna let go of their East Coast trenchhold very easily...and the NBC/Comcast deal is the new wildcard.  

Quote from: duanewade on June 13, 2010, 09:00:02 PM
No you're not a realist at all....a realist knows to expect the unexpected as there is no such thing as a sure thing and to never underestimate your enemies. 

Japan became an economic world power within 20 years after their country was decimated by war and did it by having to import all their natural resources and the extra expenses associated with this.....no one was predicting the "Japanese Miracle" and no one was predicting Butler to be a basket from winning the national championship three months ago in spite of the big resource disparity you eluded to. 

Of course, because they got to rebuild their entire nation, start over, no legacy systems.  Tons of money was poured into Japan.


Let's be perfectly clear on the basketball situation, I have not (nor has Sultan...that I'm aware of) said that you can't compete if you're not a BCS member.  All we said is that it's EASIER to compete as a BCS member.  Butler is a fine example.  Gonzaga.  Xavier.  George Mason.  By no means does it mean the program is dead or screwed or whatever, nor has anyone said that.  However, if you have a choice to be in a BCS conference or not in a BCS conference....you take BCS 100 times out of 100 times.  That is the concern.  For every Butler, Gonzaga, and George Mason....almost every other Final Four slot has been filled with a BCS school.

That's all anyone is saying.  MU is still going to spend a ton of money on basketball and will still be very viable, but if they are not in a BCS conference, it will be tougher.  I think you would agree with this...maybe not.  My position is that it will be tougher....tougher to get bids...tougher to schedule....tougher from a financial perspective.

Quote from: duanewade on June 13, 2010, 08:46:20 PM
Chicos you remind me of a guy at the airport with me when I was once stranded at an airport in Cancun, Mexico for 12 hours.  Every 30 minutes he came back with more bad news and had a big smile on his face each time.  He was getting pleasure from bursting everyone's bubble and was almost crestfallen when a plane finally did come as he had no more bad news to deliver and had to go home and have a good night's sleep like the rest of us.  Sure he was a realist too and doubt he would even hold a job at Disney.


So I guess it's over......a sport where top coaches make $3MM a year and fill college arenas throughout the winter is "spec of dust on an elephant" and is not a profitable or sizeable niche of any kind worth preserving. 


Hopefully you'll read about a Texas sized meteor headed for earth tomorrow that will extinct the planet......that should be worth another 100 bubble bursting posts that you can provide about how we're all doomed.....an early Xmas present for you. 

It's not just the Big East/conference expansion rumors.

Every time I see a "Buzz is great" thread, there invariably is a Chicos post with something along these lines:  "yeah he's great, but I'm such a hardcore realist, I'm going to reserve judgment...so that, if the day actually comes when Buzz lets us all down, I can say ha ha, I told you so, and then I will feel great about myself, b/c it's really all about me..."

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on June 13, 2010, 09:22:05 PM
The monopolies will decide all this.  We heard from BTN/DTV.  PAC 10 is Fox Sports but Texas is the power player with where they want to go with a TV deal.  The East Coasters are with Disney.  Next up Comcast/NBC/Versus.  SEC with CBS.  ND far more important in all this than they are given credit for with their NBC deal.  Comcast and DTV/BTN have been at odds at every deal (NHL/BTN).  There is a reason Tagliabue is involved with the BE.  

Chicos is the expert here but I somehow don't think that Disney/ESPN/ABC is gonna let go of their East Coast trenchhold very easily...and the NBC/Comcast deal is the new wildcard.  

I second the Comcast point. My Brother is the news editor at the Houston NBC affilliate owned by post/newsweek/CNN , and he indicated NBC sources indicate Comcast may be ready with big $ to jump into multi channel sports packages , like ESPN/ABC. How can they  bet on just Leno--lol?

Quote from: duanewade on June 13, 2010, 09:00:02 PM
No you're not a realist at all....a realist knows to expect the unexpected as there is no such thing as a sure thing and to never underestimate your enemies. 

I understand that.  But that doesn't mean that blind hope and optimism will rule the day.

I think you also have to understand that Chicos (I believe) used to work in athletics and currently works in television.  I work in university administration and in fact am participating in a meeting tomorrow morning at 9:00 where we are talking about this very topic.  I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, and I very well could be proven wrong, but don't get on my case for being negative when I look at the universe of higher education, a universe I live and work in every day, and see how the trends are going.

The schools in the Big Ten, SEC and the potentially new Pac Ten are huge.  They have large, wealthy alumni bases who are loyal and love to watch their teams on television.  They give a lot of money to support their athletic programs.  They generate a huge amount of research dollars and the indirect resources that come from that.  The gap between these schools and schools like MU have been growing continuously over the past few decades.  Butler was such a neat story last year because they have become the exception.  

Do you realize that the last non-BCS school to win the NCAA tournament was UNLV in 1990?  Despite being the majority as far as the number of schools in D1, only six non-football, non-BCS schools have made the final four in the last ten years.  6 out of a possible 40.  

Do you see a trend there?  Isn't it simply logical to assume that concentrating more resources at the highest levels is just going to continue those trends?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 13, 2010, 09:32:46 PM
Of course, because they got to rebuild their entire nation, start over, no legacy systems.  Tons of money was poured into Japan.


Let's be perfectly clear on the basketball situation, I have not (nor has Sultan...that I'm aware of) said that you can't compete if you're not a BCS member.  All we said is that it's EASIER to compete as a BCS member.  Butler is a fine example.  Gonzaga.  Xavier.  George Mason.  By no means does it mean the program is dead or screwed or whatever, nor has anyone said that.  However, if you have a choice to be in a BCS conference or not in a BCS conference....you take BCS 100 times out of 100 times.  That is the concern.  For every Butler, Gonzaga, and George Mason....almost every other Final Four slot has been filled with a BCS school.

That's all anyone is saying.  MU is still going to spend a ton of money on basketball and will still be very viable, but if they are not in a BCS conference, it will be tougher.  I think you would agree with this...maybe not.  My position is that it will be tougher....tougher to get bids...tougher to schedule....tougher from a financial perspective.

I agree with this and you're logic above but what I don't understand why you get a woody every time our BCS affiliation becomes in jeopardy.....come up with a plan of action to potentially save us no matter how far fetched it may be rather than costantly being the "Debbie Downer" of the board.  

Quote from: duanewade on June 13, 2010, 09:41:55 PM
I agree with this and you're logic above but what I don't understand why you get a woody every time our BCS affiliation becomes in jeopardy.....come up with a plan of action to potentially save us no matter how far fetched it may be rather than costantly being the "Debbie Downer" of the board.  

Well, I have said this.  What I think MU needs to do is have conversations with the other "basketball schools" of the BE and see where they stand.  They can be powerful as a bloc.  They can either be part of the BE, or be a significant force in the creation of a conference that includes the plumb basketball schools outside of the BCS.

Anything more far-fetched than that isn't really worth anyone's time.

Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on June 13, 2010, 09:22:05 PM
The monopolies will decide all this.  We heard from BTN/DTV.  PAC 10 is Fox Sports but Texas is the power player with where they want to go with a TV deal.  The East Coasters are with Disney.  Next up Comcast/NBC/Versus.  SEC with CBS.  ND far more important in all this than they are given credit for with their NBC deal.  Comcast and DTV/BTN have been at odds at every deal (NHL/BTN).  There is a reason Tagliabue is involved with the BE.  

Chicos is the expert here but I somehow don't think that Disney/ESPN/ABC is gonna let go of their East Coast trenchhold very easily...and the NBC/Comcast deal is the new wildcard.  

No question that tv companies will play a role, but many are set in stone contractually.  The Pac Ten, for example, is with Versus and Fox because that's where they got the best deal.  ABC\ESPN also pays the Pac Ten for football.   So they are getting dollars from a number of broadcasters.

Comcast NBC is going to be very interesting because Comcast has been so anti-sports rights for so many years.  They have always complained very loudly on the costs of sports fees.  That deal has a long way to go before it's approved, and if it is there will be considerable strings attached to it on the part of Universal\Comcast.

Conferences go where the money is.  ESPN has the SEC signed up long term as well as the Big East.  The Fox Sports deal comes due for the Pac Ten next year, as does the Pac Ten ESPN deal.  The SEC is signed on through 2023-2024 season.  Big Ten through the 2016 season.  ACC through 2023.  Big East through 2013.

The interesting one is the Big 12...the television deals from Fox expire in 2012 and the ABC\ESPN deal expires 2016.  What will ESPN do with that money if the Big 12 implodes in one year or two years?  It's about a $500 million deal (not per year)


Just to give you an example of the ESPN dollars at stake (doesn't include Fox or other deals)

Big Ten: $242M
SEC: $205M
Big 12: $78M
ACC: $155 M
Pac 10: $58M
Big East: $33M

Quote from: duanewade on June 13, 2010, 09:00:02 PM
No you're not a realist at all....a realist knows to expect the unexpected as there is no such thing as a sure thing and to never underestimate your enemies. 

Japan became an economic world power within 20 years after their country was decimated by war and did it by having to import all their natural resources and the extra expenses associated with this.....no one was predicting the "Japanese Miracle" and no one was predicting Butler to be a basket from winning the national championship three months ago in spite of the big resource disparity you eluded to. 

My recollections are that both Chicos and Sultan share your enthusiasm for Buzz.  Butler has had tremendous success coming from a mid-major conference with few (if any) recruits that made any of the Guru's top 100 lists.  If a poster on this board stated that with all the changes in conferences, Marquette was doomed to never have an impact on the national level, I believe that neither Chicos or Sultan would endorse that position.  One or both of them might bring up Butler, Xavier, Northern Iowa, and Memphis as counter examples.  Yet, they are both too in touch with the realities of how the BCS schools' can best optimize their cash and national exposure from their athletic departments primarily from football on TV, to not note that the fortuitous circumstances that led to the Big East becoming a 50/50 football & basketball/basketball conference may well be disappearing.  If that comes to happen, Marquette and a lot of (if not all) other quality basketball programs from schools without football will not be in a BCS conference.  

As a member of a basketball only conference we won't get anywhere near the same revenue from TV as the BCS guys, but we'll still get recruits, we'll have being the "top dogs" on campus to use as a selling point, we'll be okay.  We were fortunate to be a part of a BCS conference because the football guys needed some more schools to ensure their survival.  When that is no longer the case, it will be inevitable that the basketball only schools will be squeezed out.  Chicos and Sultan are only the messengers of what is likely to happen.  If you want fantasy, I honestly don't know what to tell you, this board isn't going to give it to you.  If its just too tough to hear that Marquette may have to face greater, but by no means insurmountable challenges in the future, I suggest that you take a three week hiatus from the board.  When the conference stuff is all shaken out, I'm sure you'll find plenty of posters here talking about how Marquette will be able to handle the changes well.  Although if posters wander off into fantasy land positive OR negative Chicos, Sultan, and who knows who else will probably still be here to provide perspective.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 13, 2010, 09:48:32 PM

Comcast NBC is going to be very interesting because Comcast has been so anti-sports rights for so many years.  They have always complained very loudly on the costs of sports fees.  That deal has a long way to go before it's approved, and if it is there will be considerable strings attached to it on the part of Universal\Comcast.

Interesting insight on all this Chicos--don't know why everyone's shorts are in a bundle about your expertise as this is all complicated.  With the NHL ratings for the SCF the highest in 36 years...and with the Versus ratings up, they may be a bit less selective.  The Versus model to be very targeted has been very successful and interesting but let's see how that translates to mainstream TV.  The network deals are as fractured as the conferences as all this technology melds.  It is so uncertain, I think it is wiser for these conferences to go slowly.  

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 13, 2010, 08:58:56 PM
My opinion, however, is that some of you don't realize that basketball revenue is such a small thing that it doesn't matter much.  It matters a crapload to you, to me, to MU fans....but in the world of big time college athletics, it is a small small matter.  If it wasn't, Kansas and Kansas State (two top 5 programs last year, one top 3 all time) would not be sweating like crazy...would they?

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on June 13, 2010, 09:39:38 PM

I understand that.  But that doesn't mean that blind hope and optimism will rule the day.

I think you also have to understand that Chicos (I believe) used to work in athletics and currently works in television.  I work in university administration and in fact am participating in a meeting tomorrow morning at 9:00 where we are talking about this very topic.  I'm not trying to toot my own horn here, and I very well could be proven wrong, but don't get on my case for being negative when I look at the universe of higher education, a universe I live and work in every day, and see how the trends are going.

The schools in the Big Ten, SEC and the potentially new Pac Ten are huge.  They have large, wealthy alumni bases who are loyal and love to watch their teams on television.  They give a lot of money to support their athletic programs.  They generate a huge amount of research dollars and the indirect resources that come from that.  The gap between these schools and schools like MU have been growing continuously over the past few decades.  Butler was such a neat story last year because they have become the exception. 

Do you realize that the last non-BCS school to win the NCAA tournament was UNLV in 1990?  Despite being the majority as far as the number of schools in D1, only six non-football, non-BCS schools have made the final four in the last ten years.  6 out of a possible 40. 

Do you see a trend there?  Isn't it simply logical to assume that concentrating more resources at the highest levels is just going to continue those trends?

This is why there's a lot to be concerned about.  1/4 to 1/3 of revenue matters a whole lot, especially when the margins are better.  But it comes easily, and at a higher margin when football is already in place.  Basketball is a great business when it's an "add on".  In a conference without football schools, without the large, interested alumni bases, it's tougher to compete and get the "easy money".  MU currently has some of that "add on" advantage without the football investment.  In a way, the Big East as a whole is a little backwards - the "basketball tradition" mentioned might be a decision some of the Big East schools make, but that's a "keep the family business" decision, not based on money and not all that realistic.

If I can try an analogy, think of this (without overthinking it  ;)): football is a big expensive office printer, basketball is the ink cartridge.  The company makes more margin on the ink cartridges, but without selling the big printer the ink doesn't matter all that much.  MU's currently making branded ink just like the printer companies, which is a pretty sweet deal.  If things change, a basketball school in a conference with only basketball teams trying to get a television deal and make a name for itself is like the ink refill service at Walgreen's: selling another product cheap, only found in a couple of places, and only works for certain home deskjet models.  Even being in a football conference but not a BCS conference is still like making branded ink for Lexmark or Epson when the BCS conferences are Xerox, HP, and Canon.

Quote from: LittleMurs on June 13, 2010, 10:01:40 PM

As a member of a basketball only conference we won't get anywhere near the same revenue from TV as the BCS guys, but we'll still get recruits, we'll have being the "top dogs" on campus to use as a selling point, we'll be okay.  

Speaking of fantasy......come to Marquette and play against St. Louis but be "top dog" on campus.  I'm sure that will play great with the next potential Vander Blue who has offers to play at MSU who play OSU, Michigan, Wisconsin, Illinois, etc. twice a year on national TV while Marquette will be playing in the new Atlantic 10 in stature even though we might be still called the Big East in name. 

If all this happens Marquette basketball as we currently know and love it will be damaged.....that is the message....being unemotional and analytical about it and talking about the lesser aftermath to me is futile....what we should talk about is how to save our butts.....I don't want to see Marquette going from having consecutive top 20 recruiting classes, top 10 attendance figures and five straight NCAA appearances and on a consistent uptick every year and then turn around and go to a team that is on a permanent down tick.  In other words after dating Christy Brinkley she ends up dumping me and breaks my heart I don't have any interst in dating Roseanne Barr instead and rather go without another girl again even though Roseanne is also a female celebrity who is 5'8 inches tall.  Michael Jordan's fervor for his job was based on winning championships and my fervor for Marquette is watching us be able to compete at the highest level and not be an after thought program like we were in the early 90's.     

Quote from: duanewade on June 13, 2010, 09:41:55 PM
I agree with this and you're logic above but what I don't understand why you get a woody every time our BCS affiliation becomes in jeopardy.....come up with a plan of action to potentially save us no matter how far fetched it may be rather than costantly being the "Debbie Downer" of the board.  

You think I'm happy (get a woody) over this?  Good Lord.  Sorry, I'm anything but excited about this. Not sure where you get the idea I'm happy about any of this.

Quote from: duanewade on June 13, 2010, 10:31:47 PM
Speaking of fantasy......come to Marquette and play against St. Louis but be "top dog" on campus.  I'm sure that will play great with the next potential Vander Blue who has offers to play at MSU who play OSU, Michigan, Wisconsin, Illinois, etc. twice a year on national TV while Marquette will be playing in the new Atlantic 10 in stature even though we might be still called the Big East in name.  

If all this happens Marquette basketball as we currently know and love it will be damaged.....that is the message....being unemotional and analytical about it and talking about the lesser aftermath to me is futile....what we should talk about is how to save our butts.....I don't want to see Marquette going from having consecutive top 20 recruiting classes, top 10 attendance figures and five straight NCAA appearances and on a consistent uptick every year and then turn around and go to a team that is on a permanent down tick.  In other words after dating Christy Brinkley she ends up dumping me and breaks my heart I don't have any interst in dating Roseanne Barr instead and rather go without another girl again even though Roseanne is also a female celebrity who is 5'8 inches tall.  Michael Jordan's fervor for his job was based on winning championships and my fervor for Marquette is watching us be able to compete at the highest level and not be an after thought program like we were in the early 90's.      

Well Duane, you and I agree....this is why I said "I hope Cottingham and MU have a plan".  Of course, as soon as I said that I get slammed.  Go figure.

Besides, Buzz said he would stay at MU as long as we want him.  So he won't be leaving.  (I did not put that in teal, and I'm not sure if I should or not because I don't know what Buzz would do.  I have to take him at his word, he seems like an honest fellow...if he can continue what he's done so far, then he'll be able to keep things going at MU.  If he left, and was dishonest about what he said, then that would suck and things could be different.)

Quote from: duanewade on June 13, 2010, 10:31:47 PM
Speaking of fantasy......come to Marquette and play against St. Louis but be "top dog" on campus.  I'm sure that will play great with the next potential Vander Blue who has offers to play at MSU who play OSU, Michigan, Wisconsin, Illinois, etc. twice a year on national TV while Marquette will be playing in the new Atlantic 10 in stature even though we might be still called the Big East in name. 

If all this happens Marquette basketball as we currently know and love it will be damaged.....that is the message....being unemotional and analytical about it and talking about the lesser aftermath to me is futile....what we should talk about is how to save our butts.....I don't want to see Marquette going from having consecutive top 20 recruiting classes, top 10 attendance figures and five straight NCAA appearances and on a consistent uptick every year and then turn around and go to a team that is on a permanent down tick.  In other words after dating Christy Brinkley she ends up dumping me and breaks my heart I don't have any interst in dating Roseanne Barr instead and rather go without another girl again even though Roseanne is also a female celebrity who is 5'8 inches tall.  Michael Jordan's fervor for his job was based on winning championships and my fervor for Marquette is watching us be able to compete at the highest level and not be an after thought program like we were in the early 90's.     

Xavier has been getting some very nice recruiting classes even though its stuck in the Atlantic 10.  Memphis seems to still recruit (ahem) well as a member of CUSA.  What if all the non-BCS basketball powers linked up?  Good recruiting classes would not be a fantasy.  Jeez, I thought you had faith in Buzz.

Quote from: LittleMurs on June 13, 2010, 10:38:44 PM
Xavier has been getting some very nice recruiting classes even though its stuck in the Atlantic 10. Memphis seems to still recruit (ahem) well as a member of CUSA. What if all the non-BCS basketball powers linked up?  Good recruiting classes would not be a fantasy.  Jeez, I thought you had faith in Buzz.

Only thing I want to correct you on the above is Memphis buys their recruits....my friend's nephew knows all the Chicago coaches and says Slick Rick and Calipari are two of the most dirty coaches in the business and I don't think their new coach is such an amazing recruiter that he was able to sign the best class in the country in spite of being in his first year as a head coach.....I think it had more to do with the money they were able to pay their handlers for their commitments. 

I agree with Chicos post the other day that basketball is twice as corrupt as football and I also agree with Cottington is the X factor in all of this (see we agree on something)......Steve C. he was smart enough to push for a relatively unknown coach named Buzz Williams to succeed Crean in spite of probably being in the minority from those also having their say in the decision.  Maybe he and other Big East brass are working behind the scenes on something ingenious that they will unveil shortly while playing the public with a Ali ropa dope routine but have a hidden right hook in their back pocket.  Once again hope is my best ally right now. 

Quote from: duanewade on June 13, 2010, 11:03:14 PM
Only thing I want to correct you on the above is Memphis buys their recruits....my friend's nephew knows all the Chicago coaches and says Slick Rick and Calipari are two of the most dirty coaches in the business and I don't think their new coach is such an amazing recruiter that he was able to sign the best class in the country in spite of being in his first year as a head coach.....I think it had more to do with the money they were able to pay their handlers for their commitments. 

I agree with Chicos post the other day that basketball is twice as corrupt as football and I also agree with Cottington is the X factor in all of this (see we agree on something)......Steve C. he was smart enough to push for a relatively unknown coach named Buzz Williams to succeed Crean in spite of probably being in the minority from those also having their say in the decision.  Maybe he and other Big East brass are working behind the scenes on something ingenious that they will unveil shortly while playing the public with a Ali ropa dope routine but have a hidden right hook in their back pocket.  Once again hope is my best ally right now. 

The reality is that Buzz is our head coach because Tom Crean pushed him hard on MU.  Said he was the guy and MU should hire him.

Yes, but as pointed out on cracked sidewalks, 94 percent of 4-stars chose either a bcs school or memphis last year, and every 5-star did.  Of the other 283 non-bcs schools, xavier and four others got ONE 4istar recruit and 278 got ZERO 4-stars.  A GREAT recruiting class for a non-bcs school is one with one 4-star recruit, unless we can repeat memphis magic.

Chicos insights are great - and please keep them coming.  However, everyone is looking at the elephant from a different angle.  Chicos sees the overwhelming force behind the guys with the bucs for tv deals, and should keep posting, but I also see potential other compnents from the political arena and egos in different regions of the country that are equally true.

Texas ego, us senators who will get a lot of votes if they stop their state schools from being left out, and athletic directors with recent tv deals who still don't buy that they can get a better deal dividing revenue 16 ways are all other factors.

Quote from: marquette99 on June 14, 2010, 12:24:56 AM
Yes, but as pointed out on cracked sidewalks, 94 percent of 4-stars chose either a bcs school or memphis last year, and every 5-star did.  Of the other 283 non-bcs schools, xavier and four others got ONE 4istar recruit and 278 got ZERO 4-stars.  A GREAT recruiting class for a non-bcs school is one with one 4-star recruit, unless we can repeat memphis magic.

Chicos insights are great - and please keep them coming.  However, everyone is looking at the elephant from a different angle.  Chicos sees the overwhelming force behind the guys with the bucs for tv deals, and should keep posting, but I also see potential other compnents from the political arena and egos in different regions of the country that are equally true.

Texas ego, us senators who will get a lot of votes if they stop their state schools from being left out, and athletic directors with recent tv deals who still don't buy that they can get a better deal dividing revenue 16 ways are all other factors.

It really is going to hinge on what Texas and A&M do this week.  If they both pledge to stay in the B12, then things stabilize as far as membership.  The problem is that the BE will continue to see the gap widen when it comes to resoruces.

Quote from: LittleMurs on June 13, 2010, 10:01:40 PM
As a member of a basketball only conference we won't get anywhere near the same revenue from TV as the BCS guys, but we'll still get recruits, we'll have being the "top dogs" on campus to use as a selling point, we'll be okay.  

I agree with this.  I think if we end up in a league with Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's, Xavier, etc. we will be fine.  Clearly the premier "non-BCS" basketball league.  Is it going to be harder?  Yes.  But we have great tradition, wonderful facilities and an up-and-coming coach.  The last time we got to the final four it was as a member of CUSA.  We would be able to compete in a new conference.

And honestly, I go back and forth on this.  Being 1 of 10 or 12 schools in a conferece like the one above may actually be preferable than 1 out of 20 in some enormous BE conference.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on June 14, 2010, 07:47:16 AM

I agree with this.  I think if we end up in a league with Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's, Xavier, etc. we will be fine.  Clearly the premier "non-BCS" basketball league.  Is it going to be harder?  Yes.  But we have great tradition, wonderful facilities and an up-and-coming coach.  The last time we got to the final four it was as a member of CUSA.  We would be able to compete in a new conference.

And honestly, I go back and forth on this.  Being 1 of 10 or 12 schools in a conferece like the one above may actually be preferable than 1 out of 20 in some enormous BE conference.

As a fan I've got mixed feelings.  I think a conference like this could be great to compete in - a chance to compete for a championship instead of trying to be one of the best three or four and having it be a crapshoot from there, keeping it at 12-14 teams lets you actually have rivalries with some schools rather than traveling to Florida every other year, and many are very similar to us.  But in a worst-case scenario I can type "ESPN3.com" into my browser to see any game, and have another game between members of our conference on ESPN as well.  SportsCenter goes down the line of the BE slate before anything else during the season.  It's a far cry from being in the best conference ever assembled. 
But if you take that list of non-BCS schools getting four star recruits, how many are going to turn down competition in a league with Georgetown, Villanova, MU, and Xavier?  That league will land some solid talent – maybe not current Big East level where a three star recruit is practically a disappointment, but it'll look a lot more like a BCS conference than the Missouri Valley.  It's up to the schools that focus on basketball, have a tradition of basketball success, and heavy basketball investment to compete from there, and the best ones should without a doubt be able to compete with the best BCS schools.  One suggestion for keeping that "Basketball BCS" status is to avoid the Old Dominions and VCUs of the world like the last CS post suggested - keep it at 12-14 and get schools rooted in deep basketball tradition that are strong pieces of a national brand.  If one or two Big East football schools get shafted and land in the MAC for football they're worth keeping around.  Otherwise don't make it a free-for-all or try to get up to 16 just because the current Big East is.  I'd put the short list at Xavier, Butler, Temple, Dayton, St. Joe's, and Richmond, and take 4-6.  It might be in the best interest of the conference to keep the schedule at 16 games, giving some flexibility to schedule BCS schools to keep the competition up and keep the schools as part of the national scene.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 13, 2010, 11:50:46 PM
The reality is that Buzz is our head coach because Tom Crean pushed him hard on MU.  Said he was the guy and MU should hire him.

LOL.  Revisionist history to the fullest.   That has very little to do with why Buzz Williams was hired.

 Cottingham had his man from the get go because Buzz was influential in landing talent and had shown Cottingham he was a tireless worker.  

Many people who knew college b-ball knew Buzz was a rising star which is why me and a few others on message boards were pushing Buzz  long before Crean said anything on the matter.

And believe me Cottingham wasn't staking his job on the opinions of the man who just burned him and us.  

Makes me question your objectivity when you credit Crean with the hiring of Buzz..... I'm guessing if Buzz turned out to be a bum you wouldn't have made such a nutso claim. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 13, 2010, 11:50:46 PM
The reality is that Buzz is our head coach because Tom Crean pushed him hard on MU.  Said he was the guy and MU should hire him.

The reality is that Tom Crean made himself persona non grata with the athletic department and the administration because of the way he left. The myth that Tom Crean was in any way, shape or form responsible for Buzz getting the job was made up and planted by the Tom Crean pr machine. It was Tom Crean being Tom Crean, saying "Look at me. I'm important. They still love me and listen to me at Marquette. And I'm still helpin' them out because that's who I am." How can you fall for this BS? The last person that Fr wild or Steve Cottingham wanted to consult regarding the head coach opening (or anything else) was and is Tom Crean.

Quote from: Stone Cold on June 14, 2010, 08:53:01 AM

LOL.  Revisionist history to the fullest.   That has very little to do with why Buzz Williams was hired.

 Cottingham had his man from the get go because Buzz was influential in landing talent and had shown Cottingham he was a tireless worker.  

Many people who knew college b-ball knew Buzz was a rising star which is why me and a few others on message boards were pushing Buzz  long before Crean said anything on the matter.

And believe me Cottingham wasn't staking his job on the opinions of the man who just burned him and us.  

Makes me question your objectivity when you credit Crean with the hiring of Buzz..... I'm guessing if Buzz turned out to be a bum you wouldn't have made such a nutso claim.  

Follow the decision making...Crean leaves for IU and tells Buzz to stay back at MU as possible candidate for MU....MU goes after two outside coaches and fails in 24 hours...Dick Strong ultimately pays for coach of MU....Dick Strong and TC communicate during process.........

You don't have to believe that Cottingham wasn't taking opinions of the man that just burned him.....you better damn well believe he was taking the opinions of the man that would pay Buzz's salary....follow the money boys, follow the timeline...there's a reason why Buzz didn't go to IU in that first week.....or, just ask a few well placed sources.  LOL

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 14, 2010, 09:35:26 AM
Follow the decision making...Crean leaves for IU and tells Buzz to stay back at MU as possible candidate for MU....MU goes after two outside coaches and fails in 24 hours...Dick Strong ultimately pays for coach of MU....Dick Strong and TC communicate during process.........

You don't have to believe that Cottingham wasn't taking opinions of the man that just burned him.....you better damn well believe he was taking the opinions of the man that would pay Buzz's salary....follow the money boys, follow the timeline...there's a reason why Buzz didn't go to IU in that first week.....or, just ask a few well placed sources.  LOL

You might be right... I have no idea.

But who cares?? No need to even bring it up.

Let's all agree to move beyond these things (TC). It's going to degenerate into the same garbage again...

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 14, 2010, 09:35:26 AM
Follow the decision making...Crean leaves for IU and tells Buzz to stay back at MU as possible candidate for MU....MU goes after two outside coaches and fails in 24 hours...Dick Strong ultimately pays for coach of MU....Dick Strong and TC communicate during process.........

You don't have to believe that Cottingham wasn't taking opinions of the man that just burned him.....you better damn well believe he was taking the opinions of the man that would pay Buzz's salary....follow the money boys, follow the timeline...there's a reason why Buzz didn't go to IU in that first week.....or, just ask a few well placed sources.  LOL

LOL. You spend months ripping Cottingham for making a "risky" decision when people like Lowery, Keno Davis and Brownell were available. But when it turns out to be an inspired decision, Tom Crean becomes the one responsible. WOW. LOL, indeed.

Cottingham sent Buzz to meet with Strong just before he announced Buzz as HC...is the timeline.   It's apparent Strong wasn't sold on Buzz until after the meeting, hence the need for a meeting in the first place.

Chicos proves to be a..  with this thread.  

Crean was busy touring Bloomington in a limo when Cottingham was meeting with Buzz.
(http://c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000kBnMx9Y7aV4/s)

Quote from: Stone Cold on June 14, 2010, 10:28:11 AM
Cottingham sent Buzz to meet with Strong just before he announced Buzz as HC...is the timeline.   It's apparent Strong wasn't sold on Buzz until after the meeting, hence the need for a meeting in the first place.

Chicos proves to be a ... with this thread.  

Crean was busy touring Bloomington in a limo when Cottingham was meeting with Buzz.
(http://c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000kBnMx9Y7aV4/s)

yikes, have fun in the timeout room.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on June 14, 2010, 10:35:26 AM
yikes, have fun in the timeout room.

off your meds, old man??

Quote from: Stone Cold on June 14, 2010, 10:37:14 AM
off your meds, old man??

I just wouldn't be using the words you did. :)

IMO the schools doing all this for football are really just telling their basketball kids that they don't really matter. I was thinking last night about Kentucky. They are in a football conference but basketball is their main thing IMO, and their football team is not good. If a playoff system comes to be and all of these bowls only the team's loyal fans watch wont they lose the money that would be given to them for making these bowls? The kids make the programs. Who would want to play for a team like Colorado. They are not good in football. The kids don't get this money the schools do. A college is all about the people who go there and the revenue made off their tuition is what makes the school truly what it is.

Quote from: Stone Cold on June 14, 2010, 10:28:11 AM
(http://c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000kBnMx9Y7aV4/s)

It continues to amaze me that we had an oompa loompa as our head coach and he kept his identity secret until the very end.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 14, 2010, 10:15:03 AM
LOL. You spend months ripping Cottingham for making a "risky" decision when people like Lowery, Keno Davis and Brownell were available. But when it turns out to be an inspired decision, Tom Crean becomes the one responsible. WOW. LOL, indeed.

Nope.  Go back to what I originally said in April of 2008 and after, you have distorted again with the comments above.   I said it was a risky hire (always will be) because it was done on the timeline it was done on.  Could have waited another week or even longer.  But that wasn't the point of my comment....it just KILLS you guys that Crean had a major hand in him getting the job.  I find that amusing as hell....I gotta admit.  Just as I find it equally amusing about all the credit given to Cottingham on the hire, when in at least one interview he said he didn't even know much about Buzz until the interview process....apparently the year prior when both were there SC was too busy trying to get all those outside Athletic Director interviews setup while he was the interim.  LOL, indeed.

Let's hope he has a plan for MU when the dust settles.

Darn, it looks like I missed the Stone Cold personal assaults.  Maybe he can email them to me instead.   8-)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 14, 2010, 12:39:05 PM
Nope.  Go back to what I originally said in April of 2008 and after, you have distorted again with the comments above.   I said it was a risky hire (always will be) because it was done on the timeline it was done on.  Could have waited another week or even longer.  But that wasn't the point of my comment....it just KILLS you guys that Crean had a major hand in him getting the job.  I find that amusing as hell....I gotta admit.  Just as I find it equally amusing about all the credit given to Cottingham on the hire, when in at least one interview he said he didn't even know much about Buzz until the interview process....apparently the year prior when both were there SC was too busy trying to get all those outside Athletic Director interviews setup while he was the interim.  LOL, indeed.

Let's hope he has a plan for MU when the dust settles.

You're "misremembering" here. Yes, you ripped the "process" because it all happened too quickly in your (but {at least according to your "sources"}not in Dick Strong and Tom Crean's) mind but you ALSO didn't like the hire because it was TOO RISKY.  You wanted one of the  "more proven" coaches who were available. Remember how you said we were now an "established" program (thanks of course to Tom Crean) for whom such risks were no longer necessary? And you put it ALL on Cottingham. I don't recall you once ripping Crean for having any role whatsoever in what you felt was both a flawed process and a questionable hire. Now that it looks like a home run you're saying it's all Crean's doing. That's the ultimate in having it both ways.

As for having a plan for when the dust settles, why not just let Tom Crean continue to run things? That's one sure way to turn at least one vocal critic around ;D

Correct, I wanted a more proven coach or to wait until taking the risky hire who would have been there anyway.  I've never said differently.  I'm just laughing at the role TC played in all this and how much that bothers so many of you.  LOL. 

Quote from: Stone Cold on June 14, 2010, 10:28:11 AM
Cottingham sent Buzz to meet with Strong just before he announced Buzz as HC...is the timeline.   It's apparent Strong wasn't sold on Buzz until after the meeting, hence the need for a meeting in the first place.

Chicos proves to be a..  with this thread.  

Crean was busy touring Bloomington in a limo when Cottingham was meeting with Buzz.
(http://c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000kBnMx9Y7aV4/s)

I've heard the exact same time line as Stone Cold.  from a "friend of the program."

Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on June 14, 2010, 02:30:22 PM
I've heard the exact same time line as Stone Cold.  from a "friend of the program."

When faced with conflicting "sources" I'll believe the one that seems most logical. Is it logical to anyone (other than a hardcore Creanophile) that Marquette would hire a coach because the guy who just stabbed them in the back thought it was a good idea? No. Is it logical for a master pr guy to try to create that impression in order to salvage a tarnished reputation? You bet.

I'm with you and Stone Cold on this one.

Duane, you should be a happy camper.  The Big East, likely, is safe...for now...at least for awhile.  The contract disparities are still gigantic but it probably buys MU another two years...hopefully.

Can't wait to hear who put a stop to all of this.  I'm sure ESPN was part of it, but they can't be the only ones.  The next few weeks will be fun as all the info dribbles out.  Maybe Mr. Tagliabue had a hand in it.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on June 14, 2010, 02:57:08 PM
When faced with conflicting "sources" I'll believe the one that seems most logical. Is it logical to anyone (other than a hardcore Creanophile) that Marquette would hire a coach because the guy who just stabbed them in the back thought it was a good idea? No. Is it logical for a master pr guy to try to create that impression in order to salvage a tarnished reputation? You bet.

I'm with you and Stone Cold on this one.

You mean like when Kevin O'Neill bailed (stabbed them in the back")  on Marquette and hand picked Mike Deane as the successor....you mean like that?  Don't believe me on that one....talk to Father DiUlio, Bill Cords and a few others.  LOL

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 14, 2010, 08:12:19 PM
Duane, you should be a happy camper.  The Big East, likely, is safe...for now...at least for awhile.  The contract disparities are still gigantic but it probably buys MU another two years...hopefully.

I think it buys us more than that.  I have a feeling that this got everyone to the brink...and the future can be a scary place sometimes.  The B10 is going to take awhile to integrate Nebraska, and unless Notre Dame comes calling, expansion will be on hold for quite a while.

Does this stoppage of expansion include Crean's forehead?  Any inside info on this would be very helpful......

I've been out all day and not current on all the going ons today besides I heard Texas is staying put which means the rest of the Big 12 will follow......if that is the case then the Pac 10 still needs to add one more team to get to 12 (I'm guessing Utah) and the Big 12 needs to add two to replace Nebraska and Colorado and I'm guessing TCU and anyone's guess on the 12th team....could even add Memphis as their 12th due to the FexEx CEO money but I'm not sure if Memphis even has a big time college football stadium that is worthy of the Big 12......even if they don't have enough of their own fans to fill it the traveling Texas & Oklahoma fans will need them to have a big stadium to accomodate their masses.  

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 13, 2010, 09:32:46 PM
Of course, because they got to rebuild their entire nation, start over, no legacy systems.  Tons of money was poured into Japan.

You have no idea what you are speaking about. My Master's thesis from an Ivy League university was on the postal subscription program and capital formation during the SCAP period of Japanese history. Japan is entirely about "legacy systems" as you put it. Despite the profound efforts of MacArthur's revisionist machine, Japan reverted to traditional form in every way after SCAP left Japan. While the LDP ruled Japan for more than 50 years, it was little more than a continuation of the pre-war ruling oligarchs, political and zaibatsu financial titans minus the military, controlling the destiny of Japan. When one removes spending by the Allied occupation forces more direct foreign investment was "poured" into every western European nation than Japan after WW II. More direct foreign investment was  "poured" into the Philippines than Japan after WWII. US direct foreign investment in Japan approximated $400 million until the outbreak of the Korean War. It was only with the advent of those hostilities and US concerns about containment in Asia that SCAP revised its policy about Japanese reindustrialization; theretofore, SCAP planned for Japan to be an agrarian society (one of the reasons Japanese farmers have disproportionate electoral power to this very day.) From 1951 onward direct foreign investment in Japan increased in order that Japan serve as an anti-Communist bulwark to communist expansion. Despite what you have written here the truth is that the Japanese rebuilt their nation on their own through iron discipline and incredible sacrifice.

Your ill-informed comments are not just incorrect but racially insensitve. Once again you prove how little you really do know. 錯覚の愚か者である

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on June 14, 2010, 09:18:09 PM

I think it buys us more than that.  I have a feeling that this got everyone to the brink...and the future can be a scary place sometimes.  The B10 is going to take awhile to integrate Nebraska, and unless Notre Dame comes calling, expansion will be on hold for quite a while.

Agree, this settles things down and hopefully will let the Big East work out some issues.  We'll now at least get to see what the Big East does about its television.  Assuming the deal is up for 2013 and expansion has halted for this year, the soonest anyone would join a new conference would be for 2012, so the focus may be on getting the best deal possible.  Still going to be a huge disadvantage negotiating a deal with 8 teams that provide a total of 28 conference games (4 games per week for 7 weeks) when the 12 team conferences provide at least 49 games (6 games per week for 8 weeks plus a championship).  They should be able to land a nice basketball deal, though it won't make up for the football disadvantage.

Quote from: ListerineSting on June 15, 2010, 12:36:17 AM
You have no idea what you are speaking about. My Master's thesis from an Ivy League university was on the postal subscription program and capital formation during the SCAP period of Japanese history. Japan is entirely about "legacy systems" as you put it. Despite the profound efforts of MacArthur's revisionist machine, Japan reverted to traditional form in every way after SCAP left Japan. While the LDP ruled Japan for more than 50 years, it was little more than a continuation of the pre-war ruling oligarchs, political and zaibatsu financial titans minus the military, controlling the destiny of Japan. When one removes spending by the Allied occupation forces more direct foreign investment was "poured" into every western European nation than Japan after WW II. More direct foreign investment was  "poured" into the Philippines than Japan after WWII. US direct foreign investment in Japan approximated $400 million until the outbreak of the Korean War. It was only with the advent of those hostilities and US concerns about containment in Asia that SCAP revised its policy about Japanese reindustrialization; theretofore, SCAP planned for Japan to be an agrarian society (one of the reasons Japanese farmers have disproportionate electoral power to this very day.) From 1951 onward direct foreign investment in Japan increased in order that Japan serve as an anti-Communist bulwark to communist expansion. Despite what you have written here the truth is that the Japanese rebuilt their nation on their own through iron discipline and incredible sacrifice.

Ouch.

Quote from: ListerineSting on June 15, 2010, 12:36:17 AM
Your ill-informed comments are not just incorrect but racially insensitve. Once again you prove how little you really do know. 錯覚の愚か者である

Really, you're going to pull out the "racially insensitive" card?  You yourself said that his line of thinking was from the "MacArthur revisionist machine" - implying that his is a commonly held, but misinformed belief.  Being misinformed about history does not automatically make one racially insensitive.  You may not believe this, but most of the rest of us didn't write a master's thesis for an Ivy League school about post WWII Japan. 

For review: point out where the poster went wrong and correct him - no problem.  Call the poster racist because he doesn't know as much about a topic as you do - kinda makes you sound like a jerk.

Quote from: TJ on June 15, 2010, 08:55:32 AM
Really, you're going to pull out the "racially insensitive" card?  You yourself said that his line of thinking was from the "MacArthur revisionist machine" - implying that his is a commonly held, but misinformed belief.  Being misinformed about history does not automatically make one racially insensitive.  You may not believe this, but most of the rest of us didn't write a master's thesis for an Ivy League school about post WWII Japan. 

For review: point out where the poster went wrong and correct him - no problem.  Call the poster racist because he doesn't know as much about a topic as you do - kinda makes you sound like a jerk.

MacArthur's SCAP government attempted a wholesale revision of Japanese society. (The use of the term "revisionist" is not perjorative.) This fact is entirely separate from Chicos' statement that Japan was given massive amounts of aid following the war. The notion that an Asian nation could only rebuild through the charity and financial largesse of a white majority sponsor is indeed a racially insensitive bias. While you might not understand this perspective it does not mean that the case for racial insensitivity is invalid. It also does not give you the right to suggest one is a "jerk" since you cannot fathom that validity. But that is not the essential point. Chico once again made a grand pronouncement based on opinion rather than fact.

Quote from: ListerineSting on June 15, 2010, 12:36:17 AM
You have no idea what you are speaking about. My Master's thesis from an Ivy League university was on the postal subscription program and capital formation during the SCAP period of Japanese history. Japan is entirely about "legacy systems" as you put it. Despite the profound efforts of MacArthur's revisionist machine, Japan reverted to traditional form in every way after SCAP left Japan. While the LDP ruled Japan for more than 50 years, it was little more than a continuation of the pre-war ruling oligarchs, political and zaibatsu financial titans minus the military, controlling the destiny of Japan. When one removes spending by the Allied occupation forces more direct foreign investment was "poured" into every western European nation than Japan after WW II. More direct foreign investment was  "poured" into the Philippines than Japan after WWII. US direct foreign investment in Japan approximated $400 million until the outbreak of the Korean War. It was only with the advent of those hostilities and US concerns about containment in Asia that SCAP revised its policy about Japanese reindustrialization; theretofore, SCAP planned for Japan to be an agrarian society (one of the reasons Japanese farmers have disproportionate electoral power to this very day.) From 1951 onward direct foreign investment in Japan increased in order that Japan serve as an anti-Communist bulwark to communist expansion. Despite what you have written here the truth is that the Japanese rebuilt their nation on their own through iron discipline and incredible sacrifice.

Your ill-informed comments are not just incorrect but racially insensitve. Once again you prove how little you really do know. 錯覚の愚か者である

LOL.

Yeah, I'm racially insensitive....hey, guess what...I was the first person in Marquette history to earn a minor in East Asian Studies (gee, for someone that is anti-Japanese, as you claim, how strange for me to do that  ::) ).  Oh, and after Marquette, I attended the University of Kansas to earn my Masters in .....drum roll....East Asian Languages and Cultures with an emphasis on Japanese interests......wow, how strange that someone anti-Japanese, as you claim, would do this.    My thesis, in fact, was built around Japan's lack of natural resources in the energy segment (oil, in particular). I  spent considerable time going through the renewal of Japan's industry and their ability to "start over" because their legacy systems were annihilated during the war.

Today, my family and I live in a city that is more than 50% Asian, a community we CHOSE to live in and love....wow, how strange that I, as a Japanese racist, would choose to do this.   How strange that I would dedicate my time to help out at the school, Little League, etc, involving....drum roll...Japanese students and players....seeing how I'm a racist toward Japanese.


Now, if you would have taken actually 4 seconds to understand what I was saying about LEGACY SYSTEMS, you would know  I meant modernization, infrastructure, etc.   Japan, essentially, got to start over with a modern plant and not be reliant on legacy systems.


You can apologize when you wish, but I doubt you will.  You're plain wrong, OWN UP TO IT.


あなたは間違っている。 謝りなさい

Quote from: ListerineSting on June 15, 2010, 09:44:50 AM
MacArthur's SCAP government attempted a wholesale revision of Japanese society. (The use of the term "revisionist" is not perjorative.) This fact is entirely separate from Chicos' statement that Japan was given massive amounts of aid following the war. The notion that an Asian nation could only rebuild through the charity and financial largesse of a white majority sponsor is indeed a racially insensitive bias.

He never said that an Asian nation could only rebuild through the charity and financial largesse of a white majority sponsor...he never implied it. 

He did imply that a loser in a major war that devastated that country's economy could only rebuild through the charity and financial largesse of the victor in said war.  While that may not be entirely accurate in this case, it certainly wasn't racially biased.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 15, 2010, 09:54:17 AMafter Marquette, I attended the University of Kansas to earn my Masters in .....drum roll....East Asian Languages and Cultures with an emphasis on Japanese interests.

Then you must know Dr Maggie Childs. She is a friend and colleague of mine. Maggie's specialty is Heian literature and her work on Makura no Soshi is superb. Her translation of Murakami's Genji Monogatari still stands as the most unique departure from traditional views of Japanese court life. I know for certain she would agree with my view of your statement since we discussed the subject of White Imperial attitiudes towards post Meiji industrialized Japan a symposium at Columbia in 1992.  I would think a graduate of the KU EALC would know better about Japanese post war history and demonstrate greater sensitivity towards one of the world's great cultures.

間違っている。 謝らなければならないのはである

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on June 15, 2010, 09:58:39 AM

He never said that an Asian nation could only rebuild through the charity and financial largesse of a white majority sponsor...he never implied it. 

He did imply that a loser in a major war that devastated that country's economy could only rebuild through the charity and financial largesse of the victor in said war.  While that may not be entirely accurate in this case, it certainly wasn't racially biased.

No big deal, this guy thinks there are 5 star hotels in Lubbock.   ;D   And poor guy is the most unlucky bastard in Texas since he's pulled over everywhere he goes in his late model Euro sports car. 

He may want to read Up From the Ashes which is all about the rebuilding of Japan.    Or "From Hiroshima With Love", is another one that is pretty good.

He's absolutely correct about his comments regarding an agricultural society, problem is that he misunderstood my comments entirely and attempted to pigeonhole them as a societal claim, and not one of modernization and industrialization. 

彼は詐欺である

Quote from: ListerineSting on June 15, 2010, 09:44:50 AM
Chico once again made a grand pronouncement based on opinion rather than fact.

Oh, so this is all just because Chicos likes Tom Crean.  I get it.

Seriously, though, where in the world do you see anything remotely resembling this

QuoteThe notion that an Asian nation could only rebuild through the charity and financial largesse of a white majority sponsor

before you typed it?  He never said rebuilding without charity etc. couldn't happen.  He said it didn't happen, which you have asserted is incorrect.  Either way, no implication was made that that was the only way to rebuild Japan.

Quote from: ListerineSting on June 15, 2010, 10:14:11 AM
Then you must know Dr Maggie Childs. She is a friend and colleague of mine. Maggie's specialty is Heian literature and her work on Makura no Soshi is superb. Her translation of Murakami's Genji Monogatari still stands as the most unique departure from traditional views of Japanese court life. I know for certain she would agree with my view of your statement since we discussed the subject of White Imperial attitiudes towards post Meiji industrialized Japan a symposium at Columbia in 1992.  I would think a graduate of the KU EALC would know better about Japanese post war history and demonstrate greater sensitivity towards one of the world's great cultures.

間違っている。 謝らなければならないのはである

You really don't get it....it's as if you don't bother reading.  So now I'm just insensitive, but not racist...is that the tact you're taking now?  Again, if I had any anti-Japanese feelings of any kind, why would I have chosen the path in life I have taken, which has been to EMBRACE Japanese culture.

As for your Japanese above, I'm rusty as hell since I only took 2.5 years and haven't used it in over a decade.  It looks like you're apologizing, but not quite sure.  I'll need to run this by one of my best friends, Mr. Kuwahara (damn, there I go again, being a Japanese racist but having a Japanese friend...go figure), for the complete translation.  My Kanji is bad, but my Hiragana and Katakana are still decent.


And yes, Dr. Childs was at KU when I was there, though I never took a course with her.  Dr. Gerbert was on of my profs in EALC.   There was another, a male prof, whose name escapes me at the moment.  I doubt he's still there...hell, I doubt he's still living.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 15, 2010, 10:36:38 AM
There was another, a male prof, whose name escapes me at the moment.  I doubt he's still there...hell, I doubt he's still living.

Nice ageist comment you threw in there.  You insensitive @#$&%!

Chicos loves Tan Tommy so much because Crean isn't Japanese.

The genetics report will take about 3 more years to come in on Buzz, though, so the jury's still out on that guy.  It's hard to get a clipping of Buzz's hair...

Quote from: StillAWarrior on June 15, 2010, 10:58:09 AM
Nice ageist comment you threw in there.  You insensitive @#$&%!

LOL.  If anything, it was an aging slam on me because my memory sucks now with each day. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 15, 2010, 10:36:38 AM
As for your Japanese above, I'm rusty as hell since I only took 2.5 years and haven't used it in over a decade.  It looks like you're apologizing, but not quite sure. 

My reply is late as I am returning today from two weeks in Shibuya. You position yourself as an "Asian expert" but I suggest that not only are your academic credentials wanting but your inability to speak Japanese condemns you to the ranks of not an expert at all. Rather than engage in informed respectful debate you lower the conversation through shrill diatribe. You, sir, should stick to the middle management of an entertainment company.   

Quote from: ListerineSting on June 23, 2010, 03:13:13 PM
My reply is late as I am returning today from two weeks in Shibuya. You position yourself as an "Asian expert" but I suggest that not only are your academic credentials wanting but your inability to speak Japanese condemns you to the ranks of not an expert at all. Rather than engage in informed respectful debate you lower the conversation through shrill diatribe. You, sir, should stick to the middle management of an entertainment company.   

Welcome back long time reader only recent poster   ::) 

I positioned myself as an Asian expert?  Hardly.  I know my limitations.  But your implication that I know nothing about Asia or Japan in particular, was incorrect.   Did you read either book on Japan after WWII that I suggested, or are they wrong, too?  Let's not forget who started throwing the verbal bombs...you did.  You were the one not debating respectfully, so your accusations don't hold much water with me.  Furthermore, you accusation of racism was bullcrap and needed to be called out.

Incidentally, your last Japanese statement left a lot to be desired.  As I mentioned, I couldn't make heads or tails out of it because my Kanji skills are very dated, so I asked a good friend of mine.


"間違っている。 謝らなければならないのはである 

Is this directed at you?  This sentence is very non-Japanese.  Terrible Japanese structure"
-T. Kuwahara

Anyone else having flashbacks when reading Listerine's posts to Goodwill Hunting, specifically the bar scene where the pompous ass in the ponytail attempts to humiliate Affleck and Matt Damon owns him.

"50 years from now you are going to do some thinking and come to realize there are 2 certainties in life: 1) Don't do that.  And 2) You dropped 150K on a f-ing education you could have got for $1.50 in late charges at your local library."

Carry on.  I was actually learning some things until racially insensitive started getting injected into things.

This thread makes Me So Horny.

Quote from: JWags85 on June 23, 2010, 04:13:11 PM
Anyone else having flashbacks when reading Listerine's posts to Goodwill Hunting, specifically the bar scene where the pompous ass in the ponytail attempts to humiliate Affleck and Matt Damon owns him.

"50 years from now you are going to do some thinking and come to realize there are 2 certainties in life: 1) Don't do that.  And 2) You dropped 150K on a f-ing education you could have got for $1.50 in late charges at your local library."

Carry on.  I was actually learning some things until racial insensitive started getting injected into things.

LOL...I was thinking the exact same thing before I even read your post. There is nothing more uninspiring than people that regurgitate text books - I just feel sorry for these types.

Quote from: JWags85 on June 23, 2010, 04:13:11 PM
Anyone else having flashbacks when reading Listerine's posts to Goodwill Hunting, specifically the bar scene where the pompous ass in the ponytail attempts to humiliate Affleck and Matt Damon owns him.

"50 years from now you are going to do some thinking and come to realize there are 2 certainties in life: 1) Don't do that.  And 2) You dropped 150K on a f-ing education you could have got for $1.50 in late charges at your local library."

Carry on.  I was actually learning some things until racially insensitive started getting injected into things.

Great call.....and for those with short memories, the video

http://www.youtube.com/v/ymsHLkB8u3s&hl=en_US&fs=1&

This Listerine Sting guy is awesome.   You have in a very short time realized that Chicos pretends to know everything about everything...yet in reality is a no nothing.  he simply likes to hear him self talk.  Listerine sting i will gladly buy you a beer anytime.  Your initial undressing of Chicos and calling him out has to be one of my favorite posts of all time.  Beers on me.

Sorry but there is no sting in Listerine when you start using the race card and regurgitating the inner cover of textbooks. What a yawn ... look at what I learned! ME ME! 
I hope you also acquired something useful like caligraphy

Quote from: Canadian Dimes on June 23, 2010, 08:09:52 PM
This Listerine Sting guy is awesome.   You have in a very short time realized that Chicos pretends to know everything about everything...yet in reality is a no nothing.  he simply likes to hear him self talk.  Listerine sting i will gladly buy you a beer anytime.  Your initial undressing of Chicos and calling him out has to be one of my favorite posts of all time.  Beers on me.

Well then, that seals it then.  Birds of a feather flock together.  You're made for each other.

Quote from: Canadian Dimes on June 23, 2010, 08:09:52 PM
This Listerine Sting guy is awesome.   You have in a very short time realized that Chicos pretends to know everything about everything...yet in reality is a no nothing.  he simply likes to hear him self talk.  Listerine sting i will gladly buy you a beer anytime.  Your initial undressing of Chicos and calling him out has to be one of my favorite posts of all time.  Beers on me.

Dimes, again, this is totally up to you, but....If a message writer wants strength,  and credence in his challenge, or insult to another person's intellect, or knowledge....the very least  effective words they could ever use , are to call the person a ...
"no nothing" .
lol

He is writing in Canadian not English cut him some slack or you may be outed as a Racist against Canadians