Is there any way we could get Providence and Seton Hall to leave the Big East? Both of those programs really bring no value to the Big East and probably would be better off in the Atlantic 10 where they would still be no better than middle of the pack teams in that conference as well.
Seton Hall is only in the conference because Rutgers originally said no to join the Big East during its formation many years ago. I agree NJ is a big market to have but now that we have Rutgers Seton Hall is expendable unless PJ Carlissimo comes out of retirement and creates the same late 80's magic.
Meanwhile Providence brings some patrons who live in the Rhode Island area but their program has been on a steady slide since Pete Gilliam left in the late 90's with no exciting foreseeable future either.
St. John's and DePaul at least bring major markets with them and both just hired two pricey "B" list coaches so they at least have an upside.
Marquette is in a small far west market of the Big East but we at least bring a state of the art basketball program that produces a lot of revenue and a very recent proud pipeline of players and teams and a sky's the limit future with our current coach and recruiting pipeline. Thank God we made coaching mistakes we did in the early 90's and not now as we too could be a Providence/Seton Hall type program. Kudos to Cords and Cottingham for making three successful coaching hires in a row with O'Neal, Crean and Williams who were all the best feasible candidates available during each vacancy that have kept us on this steady path up from the lowly early 90's MCC days.
I just think with all the expansion talk the Big East would be in a better place to attract Kansas, Central Florida, Boston College, Memphis, etc. with 6 excellent basketball only teams and then 10-12 football only teams and keeping it at 16 teams and possibly stretching it to 18 teams. This would make for a formidable football conference while still continuing to bring the best college basketball to the country during the winter months.
BTW I forgot about Mike Deane after O'Neil and before Crean. I liked Deane personally as I met him one night at an alumni function and I found him to be very down to earth, straight, funny and overall very likeable. He was a pretty good X & O coach but clearly didn't love spending time on the road recruiting and hence why the program had a miny slump toward the his tenure's end when the O'Neil recruits all graduated. However Dean'e last class was underated with Henry, Harris, Diggs and Namaka (spelling ?) who could have been part of a Sweet 16 run if wasn't for the disaster game against Tulsa....of course Dwyane Wade with the three stooges would still be a pretty formidable team. But once again kudos to Cords for making the move that he did by firing Deane as he expected more out of the coach and the program.
I think that it is possible. All it really would take to tempt them would be for an influential MU alum such as yourself to gather together with his school chums and raise... oh, 20 million or so a school, and I believe that both schools would have to at least consider the idea.
You were close on the spelling of Nnamaka's name, you just missed an "n" in there.
Jeez, are we really worried about attracting Central Florida?
If Rutgers leaves to the Big Ten, we would need Seton Hall to keep the Jersey market, and The Big East may not even exist without Providence. Just be glad we're in this conference, my guess is to the powers that be in the Big East, Providence and Seton Hall make much more sense than a small Midwestern basketball-only school that has yet to deliver so much as one Sweet 16's worth of credibility to the conference.
We will need them if football schools start leaving.
I think we need to be careful when talking about pushing schools out. There are cycles to everything. Imagine if we didn't rebuild things from 1999 to 2003...would we have even been accepted to the Big East? Where would we be now if we hadn't?
It's too easy to look at the here and now, but some of the historical can't be overlooked. Seton Hall made the NCAAs under Louis Orr and made the NCAAs 2 of the last 3 years he was there...then they fired him. Providence, as one of the founding members, I'd say the same thing. They might be down right now, but I don't think they should be asked to leave. It's just my sappy, Socialist way. ;D
Quote from: bilsu on June 07, 2010, 06:45:53 PM
We will need them if football schools start leaving.
If the football schools start leaving, turn out the lights, the Big East is done.
Quote from: bma725 on June 07, 2010, 07:16:05 PM
If the football schools start leaving, turn out the lights, the Big East is done.
No question about it...well, at least done in it's current format. You could see the basketball schools keep the Big East name, pilfer the A-10 top schools and create a very nice Big East basketball league, but definitely the Big East football brand will be gone.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 07, 2010, 07:18:27 PM
No question about it...well, at least done in it's current format. You could see the basketball schools keep the Big East name, pilfer the A-10 top schools and create a very nice Big East basketball league, but definitely the Big East football brand will be gone.
At that point, it's Big East in name only. When this all shakes out, basketball only schools are going to be 2nd or 3rd class citizens at best.
Quote from: bma725 on June 07, 2010, 07:23:16 PM
At that point, it's Big East in name only. When this all shakes out, basketball only schools are going to be 2nd or 3rd class citizens at best.
Wow, you guys may it sound like the end of the world. "Buy gold and guns, the Big East will be gone!!!"
Quote from: rocky_warrior on June 07, 2010, 07:34:32 PM
Wow, you guys may it sound like the end of the world. "Buy gold and guns, the Big East will be gone!!!"
Not the end of the world, but it's not going to be good if it shakes out like it could. No need to ignore the reality of it. This is why I wanted the expansion to 96 (and we were told literally 2 days prior that it was all but a done deal by the networks involved).
We are not in a strong situation...not the end of the world....but we very easily could be in a spot where we go from an 8 bid league to a 3 or 4 bid league due to strength of schedule, etc. With the expansion, it meant more bids for non BCS conferences. If this shakes out like it could, we will not be in a BCS conference anymore which means it will be harder for us to get into the NCAAs.
that post from wade is a joke. We are in NO position to push anyone anywhere.
Quote from: bma725 on June 07, 2010, 07:23:16 PM
At that point, it's Big East in name only. When this all shakes out, basketball only schools are going to be 2nd or 3rd class citizens at best.
I agree with this statement that's why I'm coming up with crazy and unrealistic scenarios that give me an array of fantasy and hope as is if the football schools bail and we just become a "catholic conference" then all we'll have to talk about is the glory days of the 70's, 00's and the early 10's. However I still expect Buzz & Co. to kick some butt the next two years with the team he has assembled before the potential official realignment that would take place no earlier than two years from now due to by-laws about notice and monetary penalty to break away.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on June 07, 2010, 07:34:32 PM
Wow, you guys may it sound like the end of the world. "Buy gold "
I did when my Senator got elected President in 11/08...$730/ounce.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on June 07, 2010, 07:34:32 PM
Wow, you guys may it sound like the end of the world. "Buy gold and guns, the Big East will be gone!!!"
Think of it like this.....realignment is going to screw over a school like Kansas, a school that three years ago was in a BCS bowl game and two years ago won the NCAA championship in basketball. We're quite a ways down the ladder from them, so the fallout is going to be that much worse.
Reminds me of a post on the other board that suggests the football schools, MU, Nova, GTown, and Notre Dame or St. John's leave the Big East to attract four football schools to join a 16 member, 12 football team conference. Sounds pretty outlandish, but I'll agree with the main point: without 12 football schools and still 18 or less members, the Big East's survival as a football conference and premier basketball conference is always going to be in jeopardy.
The short-term thinking idea of replacing Notre Dame with a football school balances the schedule, but it still doesn't appease anyone. And getting any desirable football schools to join as the 18th or 19th member is also a poor fix. Even a large television contract doesn't maximize revenue because there's no championship game. One football school balances the schedule, two or three are poor ploys for a better television deal and creating more and more of a "round robin" basketball schedule that fails to capatalize on made for television matchups that help the conference as a whole (yes, this is "about football", but it's also unwise to completely disregard and/or mismanage that area compromising 25-30% of revenue and leave money on the table). So in a sense, yes, the surplus of non-football schools is what is ruining the Big East. It can have some, but not 8 of them if it's to be one of the strongest conferences in the country. And if someone had to decide which four basketball schools to keep there are one or two making nobody's list.
Quote from: bma725 on June 07, 2010, 08:01:34 PM
Think of it like this.....realignment is going to screw over a school like Kansas, a school that three years ago was in a BCS bowl game and two years ago won the NCAA championship in basketball. We're quite a ways down the ladder from them, so the fallout is going to be that much worse.
I was just going to post the same thing. Kansas is absolutely freaking out right now and they HAVE football and are one of the 5 greatest basketball programs of all time. Yet, they could be without a BCS conference.
The BCS gets you a seat at the table, it's really that simple due to how things are constructed.
The one hope is the Big 12 can stay together and the Big Ten only goes after Notre Dame, but I'd say that is looking less and less likely. Not a good spot for Marquette to be in.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 07, 2010, 07:43:38 PM
Not the end of the world, but it's not going to be good if it shakes out like it could. No need to ignore the reality of it. This is why I wanted the expansion to 96 (and we were told literally 2 days prior that it was all but a done deal by the networks involved).
We are not in a strong situation...not the end of the world....but we very easily could be in a spot where we go from an 8 bid league to a 3 or 4 bid league due to strength of schedule, etc. With the expansion, it meant more bids for non BCS conferences. If this shakes out like it could, we will not be in a BCS conference anymore which means it will be harder for us to get into the NCAAs.
Not to mention the revenue disparities that will impact the competitive balance of every sport.
Quote from: chapman on June 07, 2010, 08:13:26 PM
Reminds me of a post on the other board that suggests the football schools, MU, Nova, GTown, and Notre Dame or St. John's leave the Big East to attract four football schools to join a 16 member, 12 football team conference. Sounds pretty outlandish, but I'll agree with the main point: without 12 football schools and still 18 or less members, the Big East's survival as a football conference and premier basketball conference is always going to be in jeopardy.
The short-term thinking idea of replacing Notre Dame with a football school balances the schedule, but it still doesn't appease anyone. And getting any desirable football schools to join as the 18th or 19th member is also a poor fix. Even a large television contract doesn't maximize revenue because there's no championship game. One football school balances the schedule, two or three are poor ploys for a better television deal and creating more and more of a "round robin" basketball schedule that fails to capatalize on made for television matchups that help the conference as a whole (yes, this is "about football", but it's also unwise to completely disregard and/or mismanage that area compromising 25-30% of revenue and leave money on the table). So in a sense, yes, the surplus of non-football schools is what is ruining the Big East. It can have some, but not 8 of them if it's to be one of the strongest conferences in the country. And if someone had to decide which four basketball schools to keep there are one or two making nobody's list.
This is a good post....Marquette has a lot to offer bball wise if we can stay in a BCS conference but we need to fight for our survival at this point and not be politically correct and be prepared to throw some teams under the bus to protect our own hide. We did it to SLU when joining the Big East and we should be prepared for any remote scenario again that gives us a chance to stay relevant.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on June 07, 2010, 07:34:32 PM
Wow, you guys may it sound like the end of the world. "Buy gold and guns, the Big East will be gone!!!"
Don't forget ammo. ;)
If the Big East and Big 12 collapse leaving only the other four conferences (where KU probably lands in the SEC), then couldn't there be a scenario where they take some basketball only schools?
Can't the Big Ten just take Marquette and DePaul? Or the expanded ACC which could include UConn and the Cuse just take Nova, St. John's, and Georgetown? Could the Pac-10 just take Gonzaga? The SEC could take Xavier.
Besides DePaul, all of those teams usually make the tournament. Many times at large. The conferences could give these teams less of a say in matters and obviously not touch the football revenue. Even cut the share in the Big Ten Network. These schools are such easy cashflows, plus they bring the big conference product to urban areas. I know there is talk of the big schools having their own tournament and just pocketing all of the money, but there is still some charm to Northern Iowa beating KU where not having games like that could hurt the overall revenue of the tournament. More people know about that, I would bet, than could name the Final Four participants this year.
I mean, Marquette is just a nice set up cash flow in men's hoops that we have to make financial sense to a conference somewhere. We would not be asking for the football cash and we would have to be a positive cash flow for any conference.
I would think Uconn and any other school that is facing probation should worry about being invited to join another conference. Why invite a school that could give your conference a black eye. Besides that Uconn was a non-entity before Calhoun and he will not be around much longer.
Quote from: bilsu on June 08, 2010, 08:38:03 AM
I would think Uconn and any other school that is facing probation should worry about being invited to join another conference. Why invite a school that could give your conference a black eye. Besides that Uconn was a non-entity before Calhoun and he will not be around much longer.
Yeah, but the players Calhoun sent to the NBA should help make them at least legit after calhoun is gone. I heard Kevin Ollie, as soon as he signs his retirement papers, is interested in coaching. Same with Donyell Marshall. maybe they find an experienced head coach and make those two alums assistants/recruiters. Not a bad coaching bench right there.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on June 07, 2010, 10:15:49 PM
If the Big East and Big 12 collapse leaving only the other four conferences (where KU probably lands in the SEC), then couldn't there be a scenario where they take some basketball only schools?
Can't the Big Ten just take Marquette and DePaul? Or the expanded ACC which could include UConn and the Cuse just take Nova, St. John's, and Georgetown? Could the Pac-10 just take Gonzaga? The SEC could take Xavier.
Besides DePaul, all of those teams usually make the tournament. Many times at large. The conferences could give these teams less of a say in matters and obviously not touch the football revenue. Even cut the share in the Big Ten Network. These schools are such easy cashflows, plus they bring the big conference product to urban areas. I know there is talk of the big schools having their own tournament and just pocketing all of the money, but there is still some charm to Northern Iowa beating KU where not having games like that could hurt the overall revenue of the tournament. More people know about that, I would bet, than could name the Final Four participants this year.
I mean, Marquette is just a nice set up cash flow in men's hoops that we have to make financial sense to a conference somewhere. We would not be asking for the football cash and we would have to be a positive cash flow for any conference.
Keep dreaming. MU would bring nothing to the BT that it doesn't already have.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on June 08, 2010, 11:16:40 AM
Keep dreaming. MU would bring nothing to the BT that it doesn't already have.
A positive cash flow is a positive cash flow. That is all I am saying. MU, Gonzaga, Georgetown, Villanova are all positive cash flows for a conference. Even if it is a little, why turn it down? It's like a merger and acquisition.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on June 08, 2010, 11:32:39 AM
A positive cash flow is a positive cash flow. That is all I am saying. MU, Gonzaga, Georgetown, Villanova are all positive cash flows for a conference. Even if it is a little, why turn it down? It's like a merger and acquisition.
How much do they increase the revenue share? Shared revenue comes from television and post-season play. Does MU vs. Big Ten Team increase revenue for the Big Ten Network? And does MU making the postseason create more revenue or does it likely cannibalize a big another team would get? Does any increase in revenue from the BTN plus posteason still provide a guaranteed revenue increase when basketball revenue is split one more way? Just so much less adding a small private basketball school vs. a large state school with football games and bowl games to air.
Georgetown and the ACC I can agree with - don't see how the ACC would turn them down. The ACC doesn't have its own network and negotiating a television deal while promising Georgetown vs. Duke, UNC, Maryland, and BC will have the opportunity to air not once, but twice each year to a national audience that would eat it up and adding a school that will get into the NCAA tournament more often than not makes it pretty appealing for a conference like the ACC, certainly enough to split basketball revenue one additional way.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on June 08, 2010, 11:32:39 AM
A positive cash flow is a positive cash flow. That is all I am saying. MU, Gonzaga, Georgetown, Villanova are all positive cash flows for a conference. Even if it is a little, why turn it down? It's like a merger and acquisition.
I don't think MU would be a positive cash flow. They don't add any cable boxes for the BTN than it doesn't already own. So MU's share of the revenue would be very small. Furthermore, do you think the "regular members" would want to compete on a basketball level with a school that might take a post season bid away from them? Plus it's another "voice in the room" that will have to be listened to.
Honestly, as a MU fan, I would rather see us in the A10 than jump in that shark tank with those schools.
It's Pete Gillen not Gilliam... and also PC Basketball has always been decent. They had a dominating era and will come back. I don't know why something so foolish would be sad
Marquette being a positive NPV for hoops is speculative either way, but here is how it is possible:
These numbers are all hypothetical. Lets say the Big Ten makes $150 million in football and splits it 15 ways after adding ND, Nebraska, Mizzou, and Rutgers. Marquette would not be a part of that. (who knows, they would probably try to get an even 16)
Then lets say 15 football schools net $2 million each on average. Let's say a school like Iowa nets $750,000 and schools like Mich State gets $3 as I am just trying to do and it just averages out. So, with 15 teams, there is a net $30 million split between 15 teams.
Now, if MU keeps up its attendance and post season bids and is a proven $3 million net team which it could be like a Michigan State, $33 million/16 is better than $30 million/15.
Even if MU went to the A-10, you have to think that we get some at-large bids anyway. Why not take the cash flow?
As far as canabalizing bids, I think Marquette actually would help the credibility of Big Ten hoops. Adding Rutgers and Nebraska just adds cake teams for MSU, Purdue, Illinois, and Indiana (typically). If everyone thinks the Big Ten is a joke for hoops, then it does not help them get multiple bids. They might as well let the whole ACC in if UConn and Cuse go. And just because hoops is less important than football now, hoops is still a money maker in general. It could get to be more of a money maker in the future.
It's definately trivial compared to the football money for sure, but a positive cash flow is a positive cash flow. Marquette puts a lot of alums in Milwaukee, Chicago, and the Twin Cities and while it might not add cable subscriptions, adding Marquette would add more eyes to the Big Ten Network.
I have no basis for these hypothetical football mega-conferences caring about hoops. But, if MU can show added value to a conference, then there is always the possibility.
Hoops, it's about marginal revenue. If Marquette doesn't bring in more revenue than its share, than it isn't worth it for the B10. And while MU may provide more eyeballs, the real value of those eyeballs is probably not all that great in the giant pool that is the B10. And when you consider the "cost" of having to listen to a basketball only member, it's just not worth it for the conference.
MU would bring a lot more revenue into a conference like a BE/A10 merger. And we fit better there anyway.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on June 08, 2010, 11:16:40 AM
Keep dreaming. MU would bring nothing to the BT that it doesn't already have.
Oh yeah, I forgot, they already took Crean.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on June 08, 2010, 01:58:24 PM
Hoops, it's about marginal revenue. If Marquette doesn't bring in more revenue than its share, than it isn't worth it for the B10. And while MU may provide more eyeballs, the real value of those eyeballs is probably not all that great in the giant pool that is the B10. And when you consider the "cost" of having to listen to a basketball only member, it's just not worth it for the conference.
MU would bring a lot more revenue into a conference like a BE/A10 merger. And we fit better there anyway.
I do get what you are saying, and all I am saying is that the best bball only schools (Nova, G-town, MU) might have enough revenue to increase everyone's marginal revenue. And if those schools only vote on bball related issues (like maybe the location of the conference tourney) then you could justify adding them.
But I could see a BE/A-10 merger as better than C-USA so in the big picture it might be all right if that happens. Especially if St. John's and DePaul figure it out.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on June 08, 2010, 04:53:22 PM
I do get what you are saying, and all I am saying is that the best bball only schools (Nova, G-town, MU) might have enough revenue to increase everyone's marginal revenue. And if those schools only vote on bball related issues (like maybe the location of the conference tourney) then you could justify adding them.
But I could see a BE/A-10 merger as better than C-USA so in the big picture it might be all right if that happens. Especially if St. John's and DePaul figure it out.
Well, where I think the bball only schools help is in NCAA Tourney units. Those are split within a conference but earned by the participating schools.
Unfortunately, the $$ of those units are pretty darn small compared to what a football school takes in on a Saturday or from their television contracts.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on June 08, 2010, 05:30:52 PM
Well, where I think the bball only schools help is in NCAA Tourney units. Those are split within a conference but earned by the participating schools.
Unfortunately, the $$ of those units are pretty darn small compared to what a football school takes in on a Saturday or from their television contracts.
No doubt that football money destroys bball money. These conferences are going to be made off of football. The Big 10 will be made based off of football for sure.
But if they go to four conferences and the ACC grabs Pitt, UConn, and Syracuse for football and bball and the SEC grabs Kansas and Louisville for both, the Big Ten is probably the worst conference for men's hoops. There could be, however unlikely, a scenario where they would want to improve it's basketball image by adding bball only schools, especially if the ACC does it with Georgetown and Nova as well.
Bball money is not much, but the NCAA tourney is a chance to make profits. And you don't know if college football will give these insane profits forever or if the public might get more interested in men's hoops in the future.
Sultan is probably right about a BE/A10 type of conference, but I don't think Marquette, Georgetown, or Nova would be completely useless in the four mega conferences.
Profit is profit, even if Marquette only adds $100,000 per school. Heck, that is a bunch of TA's each school could add so it could get on the table.
It could be real bad, but it actually could end up being ok. If football is the main catalyst, and Notre Dame wants to remain independent, that means u have a core conference of
ND
Georgetown
Marquette
Providence
Seton Hall
Depaul
Villanova
St. Johns
This conference would retain the big east name, and would retain the rights to have their tournament at MSG every year, which means something. This also means, that the new big east would be able to literally pick and choose whichever basketball members they would want to add. You add an Xavier, Butler, and a few others, and you have a very strong basketball conference. I know this realignment really sucks down the line, but this conference would be a happy balance between dismal conference USA, and probably the more than generous big east membership.