Assuming Gardner is eligible to play I think it makes a lot of sense to put the Redshirt on Mbao. With the descriptions of how Otule's game has improved this would be an ideal time to give Mbao a year to build his body and work on his skills. Gardner can get a handful of college minutes during the Non-Con part of the schedule and then play a little if you get someone in foul trouble. I like the idea of getting a freshman in and seeing what you have to work with, THEN redshirting in the Soph year. That will put Chris and Mbao in separate class years (otherwise next year they are both Sophs) which is very important. Then in 2011-2012 you will effectively have a 4th year Junior and a 3rd year Soph at center and you can probably redshirt Gardner (unless he shows as a freshman that he is really ready).
That is how you build a front line that can compete in the BE until you can start to pull in top flight Center talent.
Redshirts use a scholarship. We can have 13 scholarships. Redshirting anyone doesn't reduce the number of players on scholarship.
Quote from: T-Bone on May 03, 2010, 07:43:30 PM
Redshirts use a scholarship. We can have 13 scholarships. Redshirting anyone doesn't reduce the number of players on scholarship.
I'm not sure, but I don't think he was recommending this for purposes of saving a scholarship. I think he was just suggesting a redshirt to give Mbao another year to develop. He was, I think, just suggesting that as long as Garner is eligible to play, we won't have such a pressing need for Mbao.
Reports from Rosiak's blog are that one of our new recruits will be going to prep school, so that would open up the extra scholarship. Mbao red shirting would still use a scholarship but he would still be on the team, albeit not able to play in this scenario.
StillA Warrior has it. I wasn't recommending this to get an additional scholarship. That will need to be dealt with by one of the new guys going to Prep School. I'm talking about building a program that can match up in the BE without having to play a small forward at center or throwing a hopelessly over matched freshman into the void.
i agree with the redshirt for Mbao, gardner can provide everything Mbao could in the upcoming year how necessary would an unprepared 3rd center be? Go with otule and Gardner at the 5 or go small with the same type of combos as last year subbing Crowder for Lazar. Redshirt Mbao work on his skill set and strentgh
Put me in the camp of posters that don't want to redshirt any of the three. I love hearing about the progress of Otule and am excited to see his progress, but you can't ignore the history of injuries. With the three centers on the roster, you have three different skill sets. Chris sounds like he is developing a good all-around game. Gardner won't be pushed around. Mbao will be pushed around, but the height could cause match-up problems if Mbao can develop his basketball skills. Either way, it's 15 fouls to give at the 5. There may be a time when we are able to redshirt players, but I want a year of depth (and insurance for injuries) before limiting our roster. I know the redshirt can come off at any time, but I'd like to see the guys get early minutes against the easier teams. That way, a guy isn't removing the redshirt to have his first game against Pitt or Nova.
Not a terrible idea if the staff thinks he has long term potential. I'm guessing Crowder at the 5 is more desirable than Mbao next season if injuries should strike. He probably won't see much meaningful PT anyway next year, might as well bank it to develop some post game.
You can always blow Mbao's redshirt if enough injuries arise, as well.
Quote from: Ready2Fly on May 03, 2010, 08:34:54 PM
Not a terrible idea if the staff thinks he has long term potential. I'm guessing Crowder at the 5 is more desirable than Mbao next season if injuries should strike. He probably won't see much meaningful PT anyway next year, might as well bank it to develop some post game.
Agree with everything. Unless a miracle happens, he's not going to do anything next year that makes us thankful we didn't redshirt him. If there's improvement, then we get to keep him around with three more years available to continue to improve. If there's no improvement, there's no loss that he didn't play in 25 garbage minutes in November and December. The garbage minutes won't determine whether he improves - if not, maybe he'll be pushed out then, but if he can work hard and be coached up it's a reward to get a chance to contribute an extra year.
I can't disagree with your arguments. I guess part of my rationale is that I like the trajectory of Buzz's recruiting, and he has now shown he can land a big man. I would rather let Mbao's scholarship ride through the system at a normal pace and continue to improve upon the level of recruits we get. If he contributes, great, but if he doesn't, at least we have a free scholarship in three years for a higher-level player.
Quote from: sroirraw on May 03, 2010, 10:04:23 PM
I can't disagree with your arguments. I guess part of my rationale is that I like the trajectory of Buzz's recruiting, and he has now shown he can land a big man. I would rather let Mbao's scholarship ride through the system at a normal pace and continue to improve upon the level of recruits we get. If he contributes, great, but if he doesn't, at least we have a free scholarship in three years for a higher-level player.
?
Agree. I think Crowder's recruitment give Buzz enough of a buffer that we wont need have Yous ride the bench for an extra year.
Yous and Gardner practicing against Otule and Crowder will really do a lot of good and my hope is that Yous and Gardner get 7+ minutes of garbage time in the non con and lower big east games.
Never know with injuries though and dare I say MU is actually thin at guards this year (in terms of experience)
Although he is only a freshman, Mbao is already 20. I think that he is against red shirting. If he can't get far enough along in b-ball in the next three years to play professionally, I think that he wants to get on with his life.
I actually think Fulce will see significant time at the 5 this season, not Crowder. If he and Jimmy hit the weights this summer, then Buzz can play Crowder, Jimmy, and Fulce as three forwards. That would be a strong interior defensive lineup. I think Fulce and Otule will get the bulk of the minutes at the 5, with Gardner and Mbao playing limited roles if anything.
I do not see Crowder in much at the 5 with everyone healthy. I see him playing the 4 with Jimmy or DJO at the 3 in certain lineups. Forwards are pretty interchangeable in Buzz's scheme. I just don't see Buzz going with three guards, Crowder, and Butler too often with Otule and Fulce available. He may have to at times, but hopefully Fulce and Otule can handle it.
Redshirting Mbao might be ideal. See how the athletic 7-footer develops with some extra time. Depends on Gardner's shape I guess, but he is also a candidate for redshirting if he cannot keep up.
Also, red isn't really Mbao's color. That was a big factor in him choosing MU.
I think the Mbao will contribute but I don't think that a redshirt is the way to go. I think that we are going to see better players coming due to Buzz' recruiting acumen. It was already occurring with the 1s, 2s and 3s. Now with the 4's too (is Jimmy really a 3 or a 4, 4 for us but ...) Let Mbao play, then let him finish school and get better recruits when he graduates.
+1
I do not disagree with the opinion that maybe pushing Mbao thru in 4 years versus the option of better devloping him over 5 might be the way to go. I think we will all know alot more about Buzz's assessment of Mbao's long term upsaide based on what is done this fall.
I think if Mbao plays then buzz has determined that even the extra year would not make Mbao the player we all want him to be. If he redshirts then it indicates that Buzz really likes his potential in ayear or two and wants to keep him aroundd for that 5th year even though it it might take a scholly away for ayear from someone else.
time will tell.
I agree. The decision needs to be made based on the coaching staff's accessment of Mbao's potential. At least now we have the option.
QuoteI agree. The decision needs to be made based on the coaching staff's accessment of Mbao's potential. At least now we have the option.
If anything this may be a little bit of an eye opener for the big guys on our team as we are beginning to obtain more options/depth at the 4 and 5 positions. I'm not saying that they are slacking off at all, it's just nice to know that a big body will be practicing against another big body and they will be pushing each other for minutes.
First of all, Crowder is 6'6" 220 pounds. He's not a center so I don't understand why so many people assume he'll step in and play the 5 effectively.
Second, what makes people think Gardner will be able to contribute more than Mbao right off the bat? He's out of shape (though Buzz will fix that eventually) and it sounds like he doesn't have much experience playing against players who are similar in height.
Third, Gardner is obviously younger and it sounds like he has more potential than Mbao, so why wouldn't they redshirt him?
Fourth, why are people so in love with redshirting? What's wrong with having 3 big men on the "active" roster?
Finally, many players make the biggest jump between their freshman and soph seasons. Keep in mind that Mbao got a somewhat late start last year. I don't think he even arrived in Milwaukee until right before class started. Give him a full summer of working out and playing ball and see how far he's come before you declare that he should be a redshirt.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on May 04, 2010, 09:01:23 AM
First of all, Crowder is 6'6" 220 pounds. He's not a center so I don't understand why so many people assume he'll step in and play the 5 effectively.
Second, what makes people think Gardner will be able to contribute more than Mbao right off the bat? He's out of shape (though Buzz will fix that eventually) and it sounds like he doesn't have much experience playing against players who are similar in height.
Third, Gardner is obviously younger and it sounds like he has more potential than Mbao, so why wouldn't they redshirt him?
Fourth, why are people so in love with redshirting? What's wrong with having 3 big men on the "active" roster?
Finally, many players make the biggest jump between their freshman and soph seasons. Keep in mind that Mbao got a somewhat late start last year. I don't think he even arrived in Milwaukee until right before class started. Give him a full summer of working out and playing ball and see how far he's come before you declare that he should be a redshirt.
Well said, I completely agree with you on all points.
If I'm not mistaken, Buzz played a big part in the recruiting of Otule, who is now being touted as a guy ready to compete in the Big East. Mbao, despite needing to fill out, was still a top 150 type recruit according to at least one publication who has plenty of room to develop. And now we have Gardner, a big freshman who will likely need to improve his conditioning, but is another solid looking big.
Bottom line, Buzz has been instrumental in recruiting three big men that people are or have been high on. Is there any reason to believe that in the next 2-3 years, he won't find more contributing bigs, and that he can't keep getting guys who are ranked higher and higher? If he's pulling down a top-50 in the nation center in 2 years, it's likely he'll be ready to start by his sophomore season. I know this is probably somewhat optimistic, but I really think redshirting these guys would only be a good idea if we weren't looking at continued success. I expect Buzz to keep producing results, and to keep recruiting good players, so let's keep our depth and when they're done, let them make way for the new kids that we'll be just as excited about when they arrive, if not even more so :)
One thing Buzz has shown is that he simply will not play guys who can't (or aren't ready to) play defense. I believe Center is the most challenging position to learn to defend because you not only have to play your man but you are usually the last line of defense for everybody else's man. How you manage that and at the same time stay out of foul trouble is very difficult for a High School kid to learn. Add to that the fact it is a position that is much more about strength which usually grows with age as opposed to the perimeter which is much more about quickness which is pretty much god given. Finally High School centers have bigger adjustment because they have never played night in and night out against guys that are their size. As a result they have to learn different ways of doing things. Guards, like Vander, get to college and while the game is certainly faster, size wise they are playing against guys that are pretty much what they've seen regularly in High School. I think all this argues in favor of redshirting your centers as your "going in position". Sure if you sign Greg Monroe you change your position. But none of these 3 are in that category, for that matter most of the guys we are likely to have access to in the near future aren't either. I mean Wiscy redshirted Butch for crying out loud. Rather than have these guys just burn eligibility sitting on the bench lets start building something.
Quote from: brewcity77 on May 04, 2010, 11:29:52 AM
If I'm not mistaken, Buzz played a big part in the recruiting of Otule, who is now being touted as a guy ready to compete in the Big East. Mbao, despite needing to fill out, was still a top 150 type recruit according to at least one publication who has plenty of room to develop. And now we have Gardner, a big freshman who will likely need to improve his conditioning, but is another solid looking big.
Bottom line, Buzz has been instrumental in recruiting three big men that people are or have been high on. Is there any reason to believe that in the next 2-3 years, he won't find more contributing bigs, and that he can't keep getting guys who are ranked higher and higher? If he's pulling down a top-50 in the nation center in 2 years, it's likely he'll be ready to start by his sophomore season. I know this is probably somewhat optimistic, but I really think redshirting these guys would only be a good idea if we weren't looking at continued success. I expect Buzz to keep producing results, and to keep recruiting good players, so let's keep our depth and when they're done, let them make way for the new kids that we'll be just as excited about when they arrive, if not even more so :)
The story i was told and it may even be in print somewhere was that Otule was a Buzz find/recruit and Crean did not think he was good enough to offer. So the story goes Buzz really lobbied hard for Otule and asked crean to give him a chance which Crean was completely against but relented. Whtehr that is true or not we may never know and as to who was right and who was wrong we will see over the next 3 years
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on May 04, 2010, 03:29:14 PM
The story i was told and it may even be in print somewhere was that Otule was a Buzz find/recruit and Crean did not think he was good enough to offer. So the story goes Buzz really lobbied hard for Otule and asked crean to give him a chance which Crean was completely against but relented. Whtehr that is true or not we may never know and as to who was right and who was wrong we will see over the next 3 years
You heard wrong. Buzz has explained the the Otule recruitment this way. Buzz was recruiting Otule, but didn't think that Otule was far enough long in his development to make an offer to until farther in the recruiting season when MU would know better where it stood with its other recruits and got to see how Otule progressed during his senior year. Crean did not want to take a chance on losing out on Otule, if he did show real progress as a senior and have his recruitment take off, so
Crean told Buzz to offer Otule immediately. Buzz then somewhat awkwardly made the offer to Otule in his coach's office. The awkwardness was due to the fact that Buzz had told Otule's coach very recently that Marquette would be following Otule's progress as a senior, but Buzz had also shared his evaluation from above that Otule's game definitely needed to develop.
Quote from: LittleMurs on May 05, 2010, 11:21:30 PM
You heard wrong. Buzz has explained the the Otule recruitment this way. Buzz was recruiting Otule, but didn't think that Otule was far enough long in his development to make an offer to until farther in the recruiting season when MU would know better where it stood with its other recruits and got to see how Otule progressed during his senior year. Crean did not want to take a chance on losing out on Otule, if he did show real progress as a senior and have his recruitment take off, so Crean told Buzz to offer Otule immediately. Buzz then somewhat awkwardly made the offer to Otule in his coach's office. The awkwardness was due to the fact that Buzz had told Otule's coach very recently that Marquette would be following Otule's progress as a senior, but Buzz had also shared his evaluation from above that Otule's game definitely needed to develop.
This is according to...?
If Ooze says "coach, i want to play." than he won't get redshirted, and they probably aren't even discussing it. This is the same coach who didn't red shirt JC and let James play.
We pick up a chubby 6'8 freshman and that makes people think he'll get 0 minutes next year. He's 7'2 and athletic, he's worth having on the bench.
who is Ooze?
Anyway this thread is not a perdiction of what will happen. Its a fan's opinion of what would be wise to do.
There is also a big difference between letting your star senior finish his final year or your star freshman play when you have a seven man rotation and keeping two centers both of which need development time to have any reasonable impact, when you've got two upper classmen playing the single postion ahead of them.
Add to that the fact that you never would normally recruit 2 centers in the same class but due to CO's redshirt both he and Mbao are now in the same class.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on May 06, 2010, 02:14:53 PM
who is Ooze?
Anyway this thread is not a perdiction of what will happen. Its a fan's opinion of what would be wise to do.
There is also a big difference between letting your star senior finish his final year or your star freshman play when you have a seven man rotation and keeping two centers both of which need development time to have any reasonable impact, when you've got two upper classmen playing the single postion ahead of them.
Add to that the fact that you never would normally recruit 2 centers in the same class but due to CO's redshirt both he and Mbao are now in the same class.
ouch, what was i smoking?
And due to chris' injuries i want Mbao to get game experience. He'll get better or we'll pick up better players and wouldn't want him here for year 5 anyway.
Besides, I don't think it's good for moral to play Mbao one year, have him work out all offseason, then sign a fat freshman and tell Mbao he isn't good enough, a project, and needs to red shirt. Part of this game is dealing with people.
Quote from: RawdogDX on May 07, 2010, 02:30:29 PM
ouch, what was i smoking?
And due to chris' injuries i want Mbao to get game experience. He'll get better or we'll pick up better players and wouldn't want him here for year 5 anyway.
Besides, I don't think it's good for moral to play Mbao one year, have him work out all offseason, then sign a fat freshman and tell Mbao he isn't good enough, a project, and needs to red shirt. Part of this game is dealing with people.
I dont think he would appreciate hearing you calling him "fat." The kids do read these boards ya know... Oh and by the way, hes trimmed down 30lbs to 290 ;)
Either he ignores me or he decides to use some random loser poster who has never seen him before as inspiration. Any other response and he isn't big east material. Just don't give the guy my IP address.