With Oregon apparently hiring Altman (assuming he doesn't have another change of heart), it means that the first 'Buzz-to' rumor has come and gone. Is this something we are going to have to hear every year? If he keeps saying the same things about not leaving MU, how long until other schools start believing it? Should MU sign him to a long-term extension? (I absolutely think we should) How big a raise should he get? How big a raise as he actually earned?
I don't think it's the first bullet that was dodged with another available coaching opportunity. If you are successful at all in college sports as a coach rumors spread about any opening.
I don't see Buzz going anywhere for a long time but I'm a realist and understand that anything can happen. Just be happy while we have him and hope he has a good run as coach and they have some deep runs in the tourney.
Coaches are vagabonds so I don't put much creedence in any of the sh*t they spout out about how happy they are where they are coaching at the time or whatever. Granted, I want to believe Buzz is truly honest but wasting time thinking about is useless.
I just want MU to get a serviceable big so they can really have a shot at doing some damage in the tourney.
Say hi to your mother for me.
Quote from: tower912 on April 24, 2010, 07:44:30 PM
With Oregon apparently hiring Altman (assuming he doesn't have another change of heart), it means that the first 'Buzz-to' rumor has come and gone. Is this something we are going to have to hear every year? If he keeps saying the same things about not leaving MU, how long until other schools start believing it? Should MU sign him to a long-term extension? (I absolutely think we should) How big a raise should he get? How big a raise as he actually earned?
Rumors are the price Marquette fans (and most other college basketball fans) pay for success. If Jamie Dixon and Ben Howland can be mentioned for such a piss poor job as DePaul and if Mark Few can be rumored for every opening available there's no way to stop speculation in the media about Buzz. I'm not naive enough to think that there are no circumstances under which he'll leave, but I believe him when he he says he's happy at MU and wants to stay for the forseeable future. I'm either hopelessly gullible or a good judge of character - time will tell. In the meantime I'm not going to worry about it.
First blank dodged. Two more years of success for Buzz and the rumors will be real and frequent.
First rumor was Iowa. This is the second.
So when does "Marquette" become the job?
Quote from: NCMUFan on April 24, 2010, 10:15:08 PM
So when does "Marquette" become the job?
In the minds of the media it will be once we're a state school.
Quote from: NCMUFan on April 24, 2010, 10:15:08 PM
So when does "Marquette" become the job?
If Pitt and UCLA aren't "the job" (see Dixon and Howland rumored to lowly DePaul) Marquette won't be anytime soon. Maybe only KU, UK, UNC and Duke are.
Quote from: NCMUFan on April 24, 2010, 10:15:08 PM
So when does "Marquette" become the job?
Right now we are a decent but not great BE team (two consecutive 5th place finishes). Maybe a top 25 program in the country (out of >300). To advance to the next level, we need to win in a big way and recruit in a big way at the same time.
When we are a year removed from a final four, with three McDonald's AA on the team and a top 5 recruiting class coming in, then we become "the job." (I just described 'nova)
When Marquette consistently performs in the top 15 teams in the nation, year after year, and gets some deep penetration into the tourney (with elite 8s and a final 4 or better), then we can look at Marquette and say we can compete with any team in the nation. At that point, we are one of "the jobs" that will be coveted.
We are on the way - we just have to get better and better. We need to bring in and develop some bigs to take us to the next level - maybe we need an assistant who is known for developing bigs on staff to land and develop. I'm just thinking out loud, but Marquette can be one of "the jobs" if we continue to move in the right direction.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 25, 2010, 11:10:09 AM
If Pitt and UCLA aren't "the job" (see Dixon and Howland rumored to lowly DePaul) Marquette won't be anytime soon. Maybe only KU, UK, UNC and Duke are.
Don't forget to include IU.
As long as MU is having success under Buzz, his name will continue to get mentioned for jobs.
If we go in the tank, his name wont be mentioned.
Which scenario would you rather have?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 25, 2010, 11:37:16 AM
Don't forget to include IU.
IU fell off that list (appropriately) on April Fools Day, 2008.
Quote from: NCMUFan on April 24, 2010, 10:15:08 PM
So when does "Marquette" become the job?
And is Wisconsin "the job"? When's the last time you heard Bo Ryan to X?
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on April 25, 2010, 12:41:04 PM
And is Wisconsin "the job"? When's the last time you heard Bo Ryan to X?
That's because to Bo, it is "the job." For him, UW was a destination job.
Quote from: GOMU1104 on April 25, 2010, 01:10:21 PM
That's because to Bo, it is "the job." For him, UW was a destination job.
Bo Ryan also is not necessarily a coach who can rescue a program, or at least perceived that way. He has had some success and is a good coach, but I think his "genius" is very over-hyped. Bo was finishing towards the top of the Big Ten with 5-star players like Butch and Krabbenhoft. He also has had a lot of 4-star level players. With tons of talent, Bo gets a team into the tourney and the top of the Big Ten. Stop traffic.
Bo Ryan is not taking 3-star players like Acker and Cubillan and Butler and making them into Big East contenders and NCAA tournament team. He takes NBA players to the tournament.
Bo Ryan also does not have Tom Crean's CEO abilities that would be attractive to a team trying to rebuild its program.
Bo gets local talent to come to Wisco and does all right with that talent. He already had players and a good program built for him. Not much more than that. Talent makes coaches look good, but I think Bo and his brilliant offensive schemes and coaches are overblown.
Thats fine...none of that changes the fact that Bo saw the UW coaching job as a "destination job," and will likely never coach anywhere else.
I was never really worried about buzz leaving.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on April 25, 2010, 01:25:51 PM
Bo Ryan also is not necessarily a coach who can rescue a program, or at least perceived that way.
First off, Bo Ryan most definately rescued UWM. Secondly, if Bo were by UW fired today, he would be a head coach at a BCS-level program within a year. I mean, yeah I don't think he is a great recruiter, but don't you think a school like Iowa, Penn State, etc. would want Bo Ryan if he were available???
Finally, I love Buzz, but at this point I think more ADs would want Bo versus Buzz. Maybe that will change over the course of the next few years, but Bo is perceived as a good coach.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 25, 2010, 02:15:33 PM
First off, Bo Ryan most definately rescued UWM. Secondly, if Bo were by UW fired today, he would be a head coach at a BCS-level program within a year. I mean, yeah I don't think he is a great recruiter, but don't you think a school like Iowa, Penn State, etc. would want Bo Ryan if he were available???
Finally, I love Buzz, but at this point I think more ADs would want Bo versus Buzz. Maybe that will change over the course of the next few years, but Bo is perceived as a good coach.
Bo turns 63 this year. That makes him 67 before any of his initial recruiting class would graduate. His recruiting network is mostly limited to Wisconsin and northern Illinois. Any AD who would prefer that scenario to hiring a young and energetic up and comer like Buzz should be fired on the spot.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 25, 2010, 11:10:09 AM(see Dixon and Howland rumored to lowly DePaul)
Sportswriters need to learn the difference between "DePaul's AD is an idiot and has no chance of landing these guys that she's calling" and "This guy took the phone call and listened to the offer."
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 25, 2010, 02:52:26 PM
Bo turns 63 this year. That makes him 67 before any of his initial recruiting class would graduate. Any AD who would prefer that scenario to hiring an up and comer like Buzz should be fired on the spot.
Coach K is already 63. I guess no AD should hire him over Buzz either. ::)
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 25, 2010, 02:15:33 PM
First off, Bo Ryan most definately rescued UWM. Secondly, if Bo were by UW fired today, he would be a head coach at a BCS-level program within a year. I mean, yeah I don't think he is a great recruiter, but don't you think a school like Iowa, Penn State, etc. would want Bo Ryan if he were available???
Finally, I love Buzz, but at this point I think more ADs would want Bo versus Buzz. Maybe that will change over the course of the next few years, but Bo is perceived as a good coach.
I completely disagree. Buzz is the better catch. I appreciate Bo as a coach and it's not crazy to say you would want Bo over Buzz, but I just see it differently. Buzz has been a top assistant for Billy G and Tom Crean and has shown his teams can coach his teams to overachieve. He also is a great recruiter with a knack for finding the best JUCOs and getting 4-stars to come to an upper middle tier Big East team.
Bo is definately perceived as a good coach, and I think he is a good coach. He is a better recruiter than he gets credit for too. But I think his genius is overblown. People act like he runs this great offense and coaches mediocre talent and takes them all the way.
He has had tons of talent and does well in the Big Ten who have had two great teams in my opinion, this decade in Oden's Ohio State team and Deron William's Illinois team. Bo has not done that much to get the legendary treatment that he seems to get in the state of Wisconsin. Throw 5-star recruits out there in the Big Ten and of course you are going to be in the top half and make the tourney.
He still has an NBA talent this year in Jon Leuer, but we will see how this great swing offense works without multiple 4 and 5 star recruits out there like he has had in the past.
Bo is definately a good BCS level coach, and someone would pick him up of course. But I think he very much over rated in Wisconsin.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on April 25, 2010, 03:28:00 PM
I completely disagree. Buzz is the better catch. I appreciate Bo as a coach and it's not crazy to say you would want Bo over Buzz, but I just see it differently. Buzz has been a top assistant for Billy G and Tom Crean and has shown his teams can coach his teams to overachieve. He also is a great recruiter with a knack for finding the best JUCOs and getting 4-stars to come to an upper middle tier Big East team.
Bo is definately perceived as a good coach, and I think he is a good coach. He is a better recruiter than he gets credit for too. But I think his genius is overblown. People act like he runs this great offense and coaches mediocre talent and takes them all the way.
He has had tons of talent and does well in the Big Ten who have had two great teams in my opinion, this decade in Oden's Ohio State team and Deron William's Illinois team. Bo has not done that much to get the legendary treatment that he seems to get in the state of Wisconsin. Throw 5-star recruits out there in the Big Ten and of course you are going to be in the top half and make the tourney.
He still has an NBA talent this year in Jon Leuer, but we will see how this great swing offense works without multiple 4 and 5 star recruits out there like he has had in the past.
Bo is definately a good BCS level coach, and someone would pick him up of course. But I think he very much over rated in Wisconsin.
I am not disagreeing with you. But both of us are biased. I was just saying who I think most ADs would chose if given a choice between the two.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 25, 2010, 03:18:58 PM
Coach K is already 63. I guess no AD should hire him over Buzz either. ::)
K and Ryan aren't even in the same discussion. Ever.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 25, 2010, 03:18:58 PM
Coach K is already 63. I guess no AD should hire him over Buzz either. ::)
Coach K was a lock hall of famer before Ryan even coached a D1 game. Where have all these ADs who covet Bo been all his life? He didn't get a D1 gig til he was in his 50's and has never coached a game outside the state of Wisconsin. To think a guy with this resume and age is suddenly in demand among D1 ADs is nonsense.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 25, 2010, 04:22:25 PM
Coach K was a lock hall of famer before Ryan even coached a D1 game. Where have all these ADs who covet Bo been all his life? He didn't get a D1 gig til he was in his 50's and has never coached a game outside the state of Wisconsin. To think a guy with this resume and age is suddenly in demand among D1 ADs is nonsense.
Stop shifting the goalposts. I never said that Bo was as good as Coach K. I was simply saying that your argument that Bo wouldn't be in demand because of his age was...well...dumb.
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on April 25, 2010, 03:47:42 PM
K and Ryan aren't even in the same discussion. Ever.
Especially when you take it out of context.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 25, 2010, 04:55:36 PM
Stop shifting the goalposts. I never said that Bo was as good as Coach K. I was simply saying that your argument that Bo wouldn't be in demand because of his age was...well...dumb.
And to say that a 62 year old coach who didn't get a sniff from an AD until he was in his 50's, has never had a gig outside of the state of Wisconsin and whose recruiting contacts are regional at best would be the choice of AD's over a young, quality coach who is full of energy and has already proven to be an outstanding national recruiter is...well...dumb.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 25, 2010, 07:54:20 PM
And to say that a 62 year old coach who didn't get a sniff from an AD until he was in his 50's, has never had a gig outside of the state of Wisconsin and whose recruiting contacts are regional at best would be the choice of AD's over a young, quality coach who is full of energy and has already proven to be an outstanding national recruiter is...well...dumb.
Bo Ryan got many sniffs from ADs outside of Wisconsin early on when he was at Platteville and later on at Milwaukee. He didn't want to leave Wisconsin and made that clear from the beginning. In fact, I remember regular stories linking him with lower level D1 programs almost every year, and the only reason he took UWM is because it was in the state. Just because you don't know about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Furthermore, there have been a number of 60+ yo guys hired at BCS programs. Knight at Texas Tech, Bennett at Washington State, Montgomery at Cal. Hell, Oregon was hot after Tubby Smith and he's 59. At the non-BCS level, Rick Majerus and Tom Davis were both 60+ when hired at their last gigs.
And as for recruiting contacts, MU hired a guy two years ago whose primary contacts are in Texas. Gimme a break.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 26, 2010, 07:54:58 AM
Bo Ryan got many sniffs from ADs outside of Wisconsin early on when he was at Platteville and later on at Milwaukee. He didn't want to leave Wisconsin and made that clear from the beginning. In fact, I remember regular stories linking him with lower level D1 programs almost every year, and the only reason he took UWM is because it was in the state. Just because you don't know about something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Furthermore, there have been a number of 60+ yo guys hired at BCS programs. Knight at Texas Tech, Bennett at Washington State, Montgomery at Cal. Hell, Oregon was hot after Tubby Smith and he's 59. At the non-BCS level, Rick Majerus and Tom Davis were both 60+ when hired at their last gigs.
And as for recruiting contacts, MU hired a guy two years ago whose primary contacts are in Texas. Gimme a break.
Bo Ryan was at UW-Platteville for 15 years before landing a D1 job at then low/mid major UWM. If the D1 BCS AD's were sniffin' around I guess they didn't like the way things smelled.
Bob Knight (60), Mike Montgomery (61) and Dick Bennett (59) were all younger than Bo is now when they took their most recent jobs. Each took a significant drop in prestige from their most recent coaching job to go back to work (Indiana to Texas Tech, the NBA to Cal and Wisconsin to Washington State). So could Bo land a D1 job if he had a falling out with the folks at UW? Probably, if he's willing to take a drop in class (ala Knight, Montgomery, Bennett and Tubby when he got canned by Kentucky). But is he a hot commodity (who will only get hotter) like Buzz? No freakin' way.
Bo Ryan is a very capable coach, but to AD's looking to build or sustain a program he's yesterday's newspaper.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 26, 2010, 11:23:57 AM
Bo Ryan was at UW-Platteville for 15 years before landing a D1 job at then low/mid major UWM. If the D1 BCS AD's were sniffin' around I guess they didn't like the way things smelled.
Bob Knight (60), Mike Montgomery (61) and Dick Bennett (59) were all younger than Bo is now when they took their most recent jobs. Each took a significant drop in prestige from their most recent coaching job to go back to work (Indiana to Texas Tech, the NBA to Cal and Wisconsin to Washington State). So could Bo land a D1 job if he had a falling out with the folks at UW? Probably, if he's willing to take a drop in class (ala Knight, Montgomery, Bennett and Tubby when he got canned by Kentucky). But is he a hot commodity (who will only get hotter) like Buzz? No freakin' way.
Bo Ryan is a very capable coach, but to AD's looking to build or sustain a program he's yesterday's newspaper.
completely disagree.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 25, 2010, 12:15:40 PM
IU fell off that list (appropriately) on April Fools Day, 2008.
I know you dislike Crean and all, but if you're going to make the claim that IU doesn't belong on the list, you'd at least show SOME basketball intelligence if you used the day they fired Bob Knight.
Quote from: Marquette84 on April 26, 2010, 01:09:38 PM
I know you dislike Crean and all, but if you're going to make the claim that IU doesn't belong on the list, you'd at least show SOME basketball intelligence if you used the day they fired Bob Knight.
I can't agree with you on this one. If Indiana fell off the list of "destination" programs when Knight left then how did they get Sampson away from Oklahoma where he was doing quite well? If IU wasn't still on the list prior to 4/01/08 why would Crean have taken it? IU is still and for some time will be in the top five programs for number of weeks listed in the AP top 25. The fan support won't dissipate that quickly, nor will IU's rep among Indiana's HS basketball coaches, although the program may have an occasional bump in the road over a particular coach.
Quote from: LittleMurs on April 24, 2010, 09:18:01 PM
First blank dodged. Two more years of success for Buzz and the rumors will be real and frequent.
Buzz just had one fantastic year on the heels of a good solid year. Last year was not as impressive because he still had the three amigos AND Lazar. So now he has
three years of head coaching experience at two different schools. One of which he left after one year and was sued for leaving. (BTW, I am not in any way suggesting Buzz was wrong to leave Loyola NO, I'm just pointing out how his resume looks at this point in time.) Right now he would be attractive to any schools who would also be looking at top assistants at top programs. Next year, if he wins the BE regular season or tourney or gets to the final 16 in the NCAA, he'll be the subject of REAL interest, not just rumors. If he doesn't accomplish that next year then two more years like the last two will get him there too. At that point no more rumors, he WILL be at the top of every AD's list.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 26, 2010, 11:23:57 AM
Bo Ryan was at UW-Platteville for 15 years before landing a D1 job at then low/mid major UWM. If the D1 BCS AD's were sniffin' around I guess they didn't like the way things smelled.
Bo Ryan is a very capable coach, but to AD's looking to build or sustain a program he's yesterday's newspaper.
Well, we are going to have to agree to disagree on the last point.
However, I am going to simply say that it is factually untrue that Bo didn't have opportunities to leave Platteville prior to going to UWM. He had very personal reasons for wanting to stay in the UW System, and the salaries offered at the time by the low majors made it not worth leaving where he was. In fact, he almost didn't take the UWM job.
You are just going to have to trust me on this one.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 26, 2010, 02:09:50 PM
Well, we are going to have to agree to disagree on the last point.
However, I am going to simply say that it is factually untrue that Bo didn't have opportunities to leave Platteville prior to going to UWM. He had very personal reasons for wanting to stay in the UW System, and the salaries offered at the time by the low majors made it not worth leaving where he was. In fact, he almost didn't take the UWM job.
You are just going to have to trust me on this one.
You are an avid Marquette fan AND the Sultan of South Wayne. Of course I trust you.
Quote from: LittleMurs on April 26, 2010, 01:36:25 PM
I can't agree with you on this one. If Indiana fell off the list of "destination" programs when Knight left then how did they get Sampson away from Oklahoma where he was doing quite well? If IU wasn't still on the list prior to 4/01/08 why would Crean have taken it? IU is still and for some time will be in the top five programs for number of weeks listed in the AP top 25. The fan support won't dissipate that quickly, nor will IU's rep among Indiana's HS basketball coaches, although the program may have an occasional bump in the road over a particular coach.
Sounds like you're disagreeing with Lenny--he's the one that said IU is no longer an elite program.
I'm just saying that if one claims IU has slipped (as Lenny does), then the triggering event occurred long before 4/1/08.
He might not like Crean, but to say Crean
caused the decline of IU from elite status is simply his bias showing through.
Quote from: Marquette84 on April 27, 2010, 12:09:43 AM
Sounds like you're disagreeing with Lenny--he's the one that said IU is no longer an elite program.
I'm just saying that if one claims IU has slipped (as Lenny does), then the triggering event occurred long before 4/1/08.
He might not like Crean, but to say Crean caused the decline of IU from elite status is simply his bias showing through.
I guess that to clarify my view, I believe that Indiana has been and - due to its extremely strong history - is likely to remain an elite program. Even elite programs cycle through down times, as I believe Indiana is now doing. I would put the timing of the current down cycle prior to 4/01/08, but just prior, like a month or so before when Sampson got the axe. The responsibility for Indiana's current woes sits squarely with Kelvin Sampson. If he could have confined himself to following the contact rules, he wouldn't have been banished to the NBA by the NCAA for five years or whatever, and Indiana wouldn't have had to hire a new coach while the team disintegrated. The couple of players Crean dropped from the team had to be dropped for disciplinary reasons, and they were questionable players for Sampson to have recruited to Indiana for that reason. So, I'm saying that Crean (gladly) walked into a mess that he wasn't responsible for.
That being said, Crean will ultimately be judged on how well he did (or didn't) reverse the trend to bring Indiana back to prominence. As he said: "It's Indiana", so he can't deny that the task should be doable. At this point, I think that the results have been mixed, but the most current indicators aren't encouraging. If Crean's recruiting for 2011 an 2012 doesn't rally soon, his chances for staying on, particularly at his salary won't be good.
For the real fall guys in Indiana's recent decline, I really think that you have to look to the administration. Knight was so successful that they let his boorish behavior go unchecked until it reached a point where the Indiana administration no longer had any realistic chance to rein it in, and so they had to let him go. Then the decision to hire Sampson (yes, I know that Sampson wasn't hired immediately after Knight) who was on the run from a mess he had just made at Oklahoma was just asking for trouble, and they got it.
It sucks to be an Indiana fan right now, just not as bad as it sucked to be a MU fan during the Dukiet regime.