No surprise.
http://www.depaulbluedemons.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=15600&ATCLID=204928318
But WHY?! With Purnell there, the sky's the limit at DePaul!
Honestly, it is a bit sad to see how far DePaul has fallen. I always want us to be better than our rivals, but I don't want our rivals to become irrelevant or it makes the rivalry meaningless, much like how the fall of the Bears in the 1990s killed their rivalry with the Packers. Now the Packers care more about Vikings games, even though historically the more important rival is the one to the south.
Same with DePaul, if they continue their slide by losing their best players, it will diminish the importance of Marquette/DePaul, which for the most part has fallen by the wayside. I honestly hope Oliver Purnell can at least bring back a sense of respectability to DePaul. I don't expect them ever to be a perennial top 25, but at least punching their weight in the BE and playing regularly in postseason tournaments.
Perosnally, I'm fine with DePaul being a doormat. Give recruits an easy decesion.
Quote from: lab_warrior on April 14, 2010, 10:57:41 AM
But WHY?! With Purnell there, the sky's the limit at DePaul!
Clearly, he didn't want to be recruited over.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 14, 2010, 11:09:03 AM
Honestly, it is a bit sad to see how far DePaul has fallen. I always want us to be better than our rivals, but I don't want our rivals to become irrelevant or it makes the rivalry meaningless, much like how the fall of the Bears in the 1990s killed their rivalry with the Packers. Now the Packers care more about Vikings games, even though historically the more important rival is the one to the south.
Same with DePaul, if they continue their slide by losing their best players, it will diminish the importance of Marquette/DePaul, which for the most part has fallen by the wayside. I honestly hope Oliver Purnell can at least bring back a sense of respectability to DePaul. I don't expect them ever to be a perennial top 25, but at least punching their weight in the BE and playing regularly in postseason tournaments.
DePaul is the Big East's most underutilized (potential) asset. I think that the DePaul administration now realizes the need to improve the program, the more important question is do they have a clue as to how to do it. We'll see.
I would definitely consider DePaul a sleeping giant.
Quote from: brewcity77 on April 14, 2010, 11:09:03 AM
Honestly, it is a bit sad to see how far DePaul has fallen. I always want us to be better than our rivals, but I don't want our rivals to become irrelevant or it makes the rivalry meaningless, much like how the fall of the Bears in the 1990s killed their rivalry with the Packers. Now the Packers care more about Vikings games, even though historically the more important rival is the one to the south.
Same with DePaul, if they continue their slide by losing their best players, it will diminish the importance of Marquette/DePaul, which for the most part has fallen by the wayside. I honestly hope Oliver Purnell can at least bring back a sense of respectability to DePaul. I don't expect them ever to be a perennial top 25, but at least punching their weight in the BE and playing regularly in postseason tournaments.
I'm curious as to whether Syracuse, UConn or Georgetown fans are as concerned about the demise of St. Johns, Seton Hall or Providence as some of our fans seem to be about DePaul.
Quote from: LittleMurs on April 14, 2010, 12:28:55 PM
DePaul is the Big East's most underutilized (potential) asset. I think that the DePaul administration now realizes the need to improve the program, the more important question is do they have a clue as to how to do it. We'll see.
Doubtful.
The NYC area teams have been as irrelevant in Big East Basketball for almost as long as DePaul has been lousy in Chicago. St. Johns, Rutgers and Seton Hall are a long time removed from their glory days, yet NYC in general is still highly interested in the Big East.
Similarly, Chicago's two local entries in the Big Ten--Northwestern and the University of Chicago--haven't been relevant in years. U of C left the conference in the 40's, Northwestern has never been relevant in basketball, and has been only marginally relevant in football over the years. Yet Chicago is a huge Big Ten town.
If Notre Dame hasn't generated any interest for the Big East, I doubt DePaul's success in the Big East would do anything to alter that balance.
Much like the Packer's stellar performance in the 80's?
Marquette84,
I'd be interested to know if you've ever lived in Chicago. DePaul was a very big deal in Chicago when they were a top program in their pre Big East days. If they got (back) to a level of say Georgetown or Villanova, Chicago would definitely rally around them and that would create a great deal of interest in the Big East.
Notre Dame has too small an alumni base in Chicago, is too distant, and hasn't had the kind of success that would allow it to have the same impact.
Quote from: LittleMurs on April 14, 2010, 12:54:01 PM
Marquette84,
I'd be interested to know if you've ever lived in Chicago. DePaul was a very big deal in Chicago when they were a top program in their pre Big East days. If they got (back) to a level of say Georgetown or Villanova, Chicago would definitely rally around them and that would create a great deal of interest in the Big East.
Notre Dame has too small an alumni base in Chicago, is too distant, and hasn't had the kind of success that would allow it to have the same impact.
I don't know if I agree with that. Chicago and sports are so much different now. The Bulls have a much larger following then they did when DePaul was good. (In fact, DePaul's demise began right about when MJ joined the team.)
Chicago is a pro sports town.
Quote from: muarmy81 on April 14, 2010, 12:51:33 PM
Much like the Packer's stellar performance in the 80's?
The difference is that the games were still mostly competitive. The Packers may not have been a top team, but they were always giving their all when they played the Bears. In the 1990s, the Bears pretty much rolled over whenever #4 stepped on the field.
But regardless, I really LittleMurs hits the nail on the head. DePaul could be huge for the Big East. A quality DePaul team with a few NCAA appearances, along with continued success here would go a long way to helping make the Midwest a Big East territory. Of course it would still primarily be Big Ten and Big 12 country, but get two quality teams there and it would be a major inroad.
EDIT: And seeing Sultan's post, yes, Chicago places pro sports first and always will, but if any college basketball team has shown the ability to capture that city, it's certainly DePaul. Notre Dame, Northwestern, and UIC don't come close.
Funny, the University of Chicago still has more varsity sports big ten titles than Purdue or Northwestern even though they haven't competed in the conference for more than 60 years.
When DePaul was good, every single game was broadcast on WGN TV. I'd say if they got consistently good, they could very well experience a Blackhawks like resurgence. You can't buy a Hawks ticket these days...you couldn't give them away a couple years ago.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on April 14, 2010, 01:05:38 PM
I don't know if I agree with that. Chicago and sports are so much different now. The Bulls have a much larger following then they did when DePaul was good. (In fact, DePaul's demise began right about when MJ joined the team.)
Chicago is a pro sports town.
Chicago is a frontrunnners town. The fans follow the flavor of the day. Bears win, sellout. Bears suck...40,000 fans masquerade as empty seats (in old Soldier Field) Same with the Hawks. A few years ago they were near the bottom in attendance, now thay are 1st.
Trust me, if DePaul puts a program together, the fans will show.
Quote from: LittleMurs on April 14, 2010, 12:54:01 PM
Marquette84,
I'd be interested to know if you've ever lived in Chicago. DePaul was a very big deal in Chicago when they were a top program in their pre Big East days. If they got (back) to a level of say Georgetown or Villanova, Chicago would definitely rally around them and that would create a great deal of interest in the Big East.
Notre Dame has too small an alumni base in Chicagoalums are d-bags., is too distant, and hasn't had the kind of success that would allow it to have the same impact
In my opinion, Chicago sports fans loyalties are to:
1) pro teams
2) the individual fans alma mater
3) if you did not go to college=Notre Dame Football
As a Chicagoan, I'm not sure I agree with all the points made in this thread. the idea that Notre Dame has too small an alumni base strikes me as a bit off. Not only do they have a solid alumni base, the city is rife with fans that have latched on to Notre Dame and the Chicago Tribune helps foment that interest as a mouthpiece for the University.
As for the Bears, I cannot recall any time when there were 40,000 empty seats at Soldier Field.
And, as far as the Blackhawks go, it's true that there was a time when Blackhawk tickets were impossible to get (at the Old Stadium) and then an extended period where you couldn't give the tickets away. But that had less to do with Chicago being a "frontrunners" town and more to do with the fact that Bill Wirtz drove the franchise into oblivion by being a cheap, fan-unfriendly, no-tv showing, pathetic owner. Rocky Wirtz has turned the thing around by spending money, televising ALL games, and inviting stars like Stan Mikita and Bobby Hull back into the fold. That helps explain why there was a period when the Blackhawks drew nobody and the post-Jordan, horrible Bulls still drew a crowd. I may be completely wrong, but that's been my impression over the years.
mu84, you miss the point by making statements about UofC and NU that are erroneous. As pointed out, UofC has tons of big ten titles although absent for 60 years- which is when Northwestern joined. Northwestern might have more NCAA titles than UW, but not in mens bball and ftball. I know they have women's teams that have set NCAA records for the most consecutive titles. I also enjoy watching Northwestern's football team beat UW and finish higher in the conference with great regularity. I guess your definition of "irrelevance" is in question.
Quote from: LittleMurs on April 14, 2010, 12:54:01 PM
Marquette84,
I'd be interested to know if you've ever lived in Chicago. DePaul was a very big deal in Chicago when they were a top program in their pre Big East days. If they got (back) to a level of say Georgetown or Villanova, Chicago would definitely rally around them and that would create a great deal of interest in the Big East.
Notre Dame has too small an alumni base in Chicago, is too distant, and hasn't had the kind of success that would allow it to have the same impact.
Yes. My guess is that you weren't living in Chicago at the time.
During the DePaul heyday (1978 to 1982). . .
The Cubs averaged between 10672 (1980) and 20,353 (1978)
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/cubsatte.shtml
The WhiteSox no better ranging from 14,819 (1980) to 18523 (1978)
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teams/wsoxatte.shtml
The Bulls averaged under 10,000 per game
http://www.databasebasketball.com/teams/teamatt.htm?tm=chi&lg=n
The Bears needed help to avoid blackouts.
Illinois hadn't been to the NCAA (
or even the NIT!!!) between 1963 and 1980.
DePaul was popular because they were about the only winner in the city.
Consider what has changed.
1. PSLs & SkyBoxes. Nobody is going to put their sporting dollar into DePaul's coffers. They are financially committed to the pro franchises.
2. Huge $$$ to buy each of the teams. Sox were sold. Cubs were sold. Bulls were sold. Once the big money came in, the owners were committed to making moves to keep teams competitive and houses full.
3. Gentrification. When DePaul was popular, the Horizon was safe and easy to get to. Lakeview was dicey at best, and the west and south sides were bordering on war zones. People took clients to DePaul for entertainment because getting to any other sporting venue was less than impressive.
4. Networks. WGN is part of the CW--they no longer need help filling their programming time.
5. Winning. Every other major franchise has been a winner. Yes they've had ups and downs, but we don't see the 1963 to 1980 drought like the Bulls and Illini suffered.
6. Ray Meyer is gone. People liked to support DePaul because they felt good about Ray Meyer. Think anyone has had the warm fuzzies for Joey? Fat Pat? Leitao? Purnell?
Finally, at one time Loyola was similarly popular--even winning a national championship. Do you think that Chicago would rally around them again?
DePauls time has come and gone.
Quote from: augoman on April 14, 2010, 04:19:10 PM
mu84, you miss the point by making statements about UofC and NU that are erroneous. As pointed out, UofC has tons of big ten titles although absent for 60 years- which is when Northwestern joined. Northwestern might have more NCAA titles than UW, but not in mens bball and ftball. I know they have women's teams that have set NCAA records for the most consecutive titles. I also enjoy watching Northwestern's football team beat UW and finish higher in the conference with great regularity. I guess your definition of "irrelevance" is in question.
How much press does the Northwestern Women's Knitting Club or Tiddly Winks national championship get?
The Big Ten
Mens Football and
Mens Basketball coverage dominates sports pages in Chicago--significantly ahead of any other local college in any other sport.
And that's
not because NU's women's teams have been playing well or nostalgia for UofC's 60+ year old championships. Hell, most Chicagoans don't even realize UofC was in the Big Ten.
Chicago is Big Ten town--and its that way without a relevant local team. DePaul's success isn't going to change that
Quote from: mu-rara on April 14, 2010, 01:54:22 PM
Chicago is a frontrunnners town. The fans follow the flavor of the day.
Must be why the Cubs have had so much trouble filling up Wrigley over the last 25 years.
Seriously, I think most pro sports fans are this way with very few teams immune to the vagaries of fan interest. The Cubs are one of these teams. So are the Bears (never, ever seen 40,000 empty seats in Soldier Field, old or new.)
DePaul will do well in drawing fan interest if they have some consistent on-court success.
And then Marquette will plunge to Loyola-level depths. Because Marquette can't win unless DePaul is terrible.
Quote from: augoman on April 14, 2010, 04:19:10 PM
mu84, you miss the point by making statements about UofC and NU that are erroneous. As pointed out, UofC has tons of big ten titles although absent for 60 years- which is when Northwestern joined. Northwestern might have more NCAA titles than UW, but not in mens bball and ftball. I know they have women's teams that have set NCAA records for the most consecutive titles. I also enjoy watching Northwestern's football team beat UW and finish higher in the conference with great regularity. I guess your definition of "irrelevance" is in question.
Northwestern was a founding member of the Big Ten in 1896.
Quote from: groove
Funny, the University of Chicago still has more varsity sports big ten titles than Purdue or Northwestern even though they haven't competed in the conference for more than 60 years.
University of Chicago also has more Big Ten titles than Penn State has been able to garner in their 17 or so years.
What people fail to recognize with DU is back in the day when all of their games were on WGN, WGN was only one of two superstations (the other TBS with Atlanta Braves games) that were on every cable network. Today with TV rights, etc you will never have a similar situation plus DU like MU was an independent.
A lot of things have changed since the early 80's with the DU program and the worst hit was the divorce of the PSL by Sonny Landon Cox after the Teddy Grubbs incident. DU was unfairly blackballed by Sonny and the other PSL coaches, Teddy had mental health issues and it wasn't DU's fault and they did everything they could to help him. Joey did not tell Teddy to expose himself in the DU library.
Quote from: Marquette84 on April 14, 2010, 05:19:11 PM
How much press does the Northwestern Women's Knitting Club or Tiddly Winks national championship get?
The Big Ten Mens Football and Mens Basketball coverage dominates sports pages in Chicago--significantly ahead of any other local college in any other sport.
And that's not because NU's women's teams have been playing well or nostalgia for UofC's 60+ year old championships. Hell, most Chicagoans don't even realize UofC was in the Big Ten.
Chicago is Big Ten town--and its that way without a relevant local team. DePaul's success isn't going to change that
"Chicago is Big Ten town--and its that way without a relevant local team. DePaul's success isn't going to change that"
Well, if DePaul was successful, it would certainly change the fact that there isn't a relevant local team.
In its heyday, DePaul got
plenty of press attention, and I believe that should they get their act together, they will again.
I don't want top chicago players to have depaul as a legit option. With our alumni base there we can be top of mind there, buzz gets us texas, and the big east gives us new york. Keep buzz, stay in big east, and depaul stays down and the future is bright.
Marquette84....
It seems to me that you just like to take the unpopular opinion on everything and then produce one stupid opinion after another to support it. Then throw in a few facts that have nothing to do with it and beleive they actually support your opinion.
You are throwing out all these irrelavant attendance numbers.
Listen. Depaul was all over WGN and national television becuase they were a top 5 team loaded with future NBA talent a few of the teams were even season long #1's and undefeated. If you honestly beleive a top 5-10 team would not be hugely supported in Chicago or any freaking town in American then you truly are freaking delusional!
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on April 14, 2010, 08:26:45 PM
Marquette84....
It seems to me that you just like to take the unpopular opinion on everything and then produce one stupid opinion after another to support it. Then throw in a few facts that have nothing to do with it and beleive they actually support your opinion.
You are throwing out all these irrelavant attendance numbers.
Listen. Depaul was all over WGN and national television becuase they were a top 5 team loaded with future NBA talent a few of the teams were even season long #1's and undefeated. If you honestly beleive a top 5-10 team would not be hugely supported in Chicago or any freaking town in American then you truly are freaking delusional!
Okay, genius. Explain this one . . .
With all the success MU has had over the past five years, why isn't MILWAUKEE transformed into a huge Big East town?
If MU cannot do it for the Big East in Milwaukee, why do so many think that DePaul would be able to shift opinions significantly in Chicago?
DePaul needs either build an arena near campus or move the the United Center. Their fan base is pathetic - and one of the reasons is the dump they play at is one of the worst facilities in the country and it is not easy for the students and fans to get to. Then again, Chicago has a number of crappy facilities - Solider field, US Cellular field
There is no question that having all its games on WGN and shown nationwide was huge for DePaul. And the comments about the pro teams getting better is true. Chicago will go nuts for a DePaul team that is ranked #1 for most of the season, as they have been in the past, but that is not likely to happen. It is just too difficult for any program to reach and sustain that level.
That said, DePaul has an enormous alumni base in Chicago, and if they are successful, that fan base will come out. And while Ray is no longer around, there is a great charm to DePaul for city residents. Even the people who never went there know somebody who did. The whole idea of the "little school under the El tracks," even if it is not really true, resonates for Chicagoans.
I do not know that DePaul can reach the popularity it had at its highest point. I do not know that Marquette can either. However, I do think DePaul can be a successful program, and one of the better ones in the country.
US Cellular and Soldier Field as crappy facilities. Have you been in them recently? While the Cell may have been an eyesore when built back in 1990, the upgrades have been great. They lopped off the top, built a fan-friendly concourse in the outfield, moved the bullpens, and have some of the best food in professional sports. And Soldier Field, despite looking like an alien aircraft landed on it, doesn't have a bad seat in the house and is a great place to see a football game.
Quote from: Marquette84 on April 15, 2010, 08:30:34 AM
Okay, genius. Explain this one . . .
With all the success MU has had over the past five years, why isn't MILWAUKEE transformed into a huge Big East town?
If MU cannot do it for the Big East in Milwaukee, why do so many think that DePaul would be able to shift opinions significantly in Chicago?
MU has had tons of success in the past 5 years?
Quote from: marquette99 on April 14, 2010, 08:25:50 PM
I don't want top chicago players to have depaul as a legit option. With our alumni base there we can be top of mind there, buzz gets us texas, and the big east gives us new york. Keep buzz, stay in big east, and depaul stays down and the future is bright.
Marquette has landed exactly one "top" Chicago-area prospect in its last seven recruiting classes (and two since Dwyane Wade's class), yet has somehow managed to stay competitive.
That's what people in this whole DePaul argument seem to ignore ... we're very rarely competing with them for players. MU has had more key recruiting battles with Georgia Tech (Matthews, Shumpert, Taylor) in recent years than it has with DePaul. Perhaps we should be more concerned with the Yellow Jackets than the Blue Demons.
Getting Chicago players is great and certainly is a boost for MU, but having DePaul in the mix for a few of them won't make or break Marquette.
Quote from: Marquette84 on April 15, 2010, 08:30:34 AM
Okay, genius. Explain this one . . .
With all the success MU has had over the past five years, why isn't MILWAUKEE transformed into a huge Big East town?
If MU cannot do it for the Big East in Milwaukee, why do so many think that DePaul would be able to shift opinions significantly in Chicago?
Comparing our last 5 years with DePaul's golden era is absurd. Being a 6 seed three times, a 7 once and an 8 once doesn't come close to Depaul of the late 70's/early 80's.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 15, 2010, 09:11:04 AM
MU has had tons of success in the past 5 years?
Yes, we have.
How many other NCAA teams
--Have been to 5 straight NCAA tournaments
--won 10+ conference games in the big east or similar league
--Have four or more players in the NBA
--Have been consistently among the top 15/20 in attendance
--Have won 20+ games
--Play in one of the elite conference that regularly draw top 10 opponents to their home court.
--Gone into the last month of the season with a decent chance at a league title.
If you don't think that's success, there probably 325 other Division 1 programs that would swap places with us in a heartbeat.
Now, if given all that, if Marquette---with a far stronger tie to the local community and far less entertainment competition in the metro area--if WE haven't been able to move the needle on Big East interest in Milwaukee (which outside of its own fans, it hasn't), how in the world is DePaul going to do so in Chicago?
There is no way, no how, no matter how good DePaul ever gets that they stand a chance at getting Chicagoans to care more about Georgetown/Providence, USF/Cincinnati or Syracuse/UConn than they do about Purdue/Michigan State, or Illinois/Indiana, or Michigan/Ohio State. Period.
Its ain't gonna happen. Chicago isn't a Big East town.
Quote from: Marquette84 on April 15, 2010, 11:41:40 AM
Yes, we have.
How many other NCAA teams
--Have been to 5 straight NCAA tournaments
--won 10+ conference games in the big east or similar league
--Have four or more players in the NBA
--Have been consistently among the top 15/20 in attendance
--Have won 20+ games
--Play in one of the elite conference that regularly draw top 10 opponents to their home court.
--Gone into the last month of the season with a decent chance at a league title.
If you don't think that's success, there probably 325 other Division 1 programs that would swap places with us in a heartbeat.
Now, if given all that, if Marquette---with a far stronger tie to the local community and far less entertainment competition in the metro area--if WE haven't been able to move the needle on Big East interest in Milwaukee (which outside of its own fans, it hasn't), how in the world is DePaul going to do so in Chicago?
There is no way, no how, no matter how good DePaul ever gets that they stand a chance at getting Chicagoans to care more about Georgetown/Providence, USF/Cincinnati or Syracuse/UConn than they do about Purdue/Michigan State, or Illinois/Indiana, or Michigan/Ohio State. Period.
Its ain't gonna happen. Chicago isn't a Big East town.
And you think that's comparable to DePaul in the Mark Aguirre era?
Why do you keep bringing up the conference? Why does Chicago need to become a "Big East town" for them to follow DePaul? Indianapolis rallied behind Butler. Does that mean basketball fans in Indy have become huge supporters of the Horizon League? Are they eagerly anticipating next season's clash between Cleveland State and UWGB?
Marquette has seen a HUGE surge in popularity in Milwaukee in the last 10 years or so. Do you remember the Mike Deane era or the early Crean years when the team was playing in a half-empty arena and even played a few games at The Mecca?
If DePaul wins, Chicago will get behind them. Period. That doesn't have to mean that Chicagoans will all race home to watch St. John's and Cincy play on Big Monday.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on April 15, 2010, 11:55:38 AM
And you think that's comparable to DePaul in the Mark Aguirre era?
Why do you keep bringing up the conference? Why does Chicago need to become a "Big East town" for them to follow DePaul? Indianapolis rallied behind Butler. Does that mean basketball fans in Indy have become huge supporters of the Horizon League? Are they eagerly anticipating next season's clash between Cleveland State and UWGB?
I bring up conference because that was exactly the argument that I disagreed with:
Quote from: LittleMurs on April 14, 2010, 12:28:55 PM
DePaul is the Big East's most underutilized (potential) asset. I think that the DePaul administration now realizes the need to improve the program, the more important question is do they have a clue as to how to do it. We'll see.
Just as you claim Butler's success won't translate into general interest in the Horizon, I don't believe DePaul's success will translate into any general interest in the Big East.
As you point out, Marquette has seen a HUGE surge in popularity in Milwaukee in the last 10 years or so. It has not translated into a surge of popularity for the Big East.
Therefore, I think its fair to say that DePaul is not an "asset" that the Big east can "leverage".
Quote from: Marquette84 on April 15, 2010, 12:37:41 PMAs you point out, Marquette has seen a HUGE surge in popularity in Milwaukee in the last 10 years or so. It has not translated into a surge of popularity for the Big East.
What about all of the Syracuse, Georgetown etc, gear bought on the days Marquette has home games against these teams by UW and UWM fans?
The days of believeing the success of a college basketball team is directly correllated with the size of the market in which the school recruits are gone. Most D1 programs recruit natioanlly, internationally. With recruiting budgests, assistants, etc, the reach of a program is much broader. Evidence Northern Iowa having a better team this year than St Johns and DePaul, UCLA. The Big east model developed in the early 80's should be reconsidered. I hate to say it but there is a bigger correlation with the size of the bball budget and success than the size of the market and success. The budget is influenced by conference.
If Vermont was in the Big East, it could compete with the DePaul after several years...