to MU's basketball program and Buzz if UW-Green Bay was playing for the NCAA Championship on Monday night?
Obviously, UWGB would be looked on as the preeminent program in the state. Would instate recruits see the young, cool, calm, and collected coach, as someone they wanted to play for and therefore, make it more difficult to keep homegrown talent? How 'bout Buzz? Would he be on the hot seat or begin to feel he can't take MU any farther? Man, a Horizon League team passing up a big time conference team right in your own state, go figure.
Happy Easter, Tom Crean.
Hard to believe IU is the fourth best program in Indiana.
Quote from: Jacks DC on April 04, 2010, 08:10:19 AM
Hard to believe IU is the fourth best program in Indiana.
You're sure that IU is better than Indiana State?
Or better then IUPUI and IPFW??
Even more importantly:
If a mid major like Butler, with a group of unknown kids can get this far (and may win the whole damn thing), then there is no excuse for our expectations to be low. All you need is good coaching, good camaraderie, some talent(even if not big name), and some luck.
We should expect similar results from our program--and no I am not saying Final 4 every year, but at least compete for regular season confernce Championship and Sweet 16 appearances. After all, we have a bigger budget, better confernce to recruit to and a greater recruiting base.
I really don't think it would have any of the effects you seem to feel it would. There may be some bragging rights and some local fans may catch some grief but in the overall scheme of things it won't have much effect on local schools. It solidifies Bulters position as "the Gonzaga of the East" and they will get the edge on kids that might otherwise go to other mid majors BUT a kid who could go to NC or Kentucky is not going to suddenly consider Butler. For instance someone like the Tokoto would not consider Butler because of this run. Regardless of what happens Bulter will play at UWM and Youngstown state next year and those games won't be on national TV. The top talent wants that exposure and that won't change much.
It proves that you don't have to be a state school from a big conference to win the title and in my opinion that is good for College Basketball and schools like MU.
Quote from: schubert33 on April 04, 2010, 08:45:54 AM
Or better then IUPUI and IPFW??
By this measure IU was barely the 8th best team in the state of Indiana this year. The good news is they have only direction to go.
Last RPI (March 14 http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_Men.html )
Butler = 12
Purdue = 16
ND = 49
IUPUI = 83
Indiana State = 88
Valpo = 186
Ball State = 220
IU = 222IPFW = 224
Quote from: NotAnAlum on April 04, 2010, 09:32:56 AM
I really don't think it would have any of the effects you seem to feel it would. There may be some bragging rights and some local fans may catch some grief but in the overall scheme of things it won't have much effect on local schools. It solidifies Bulters position as "the Gonzaga of the East" and they will get the edge on kids that might otherwise go to other mid majors BUT a kid who could go to NC or Kentucky is not going to suddenly consider Butler. For instance someone like the Tokoto would not consider Butler because of this run. Regardless of what happens Bulter will play at UWM and Youngstown state next year and those games won't be on national TV. The top talent wants that exposure and that won't change much.
It proves that you don't have to be a state school from a big conference to win the title and in my opinion that is good for College Basketball and schools like MU.
What if it was that other Horizon league team in the finals ... UWM. How would that change things?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 04, 2010, 07:15:28 AM
to MU's basketball program and Buzz if UW-Green Bay was playing for the NCAA Championship on Monday night?
Obviously, UWGB would be looked on as the preeminent program in the state. Would instate recruits see the young, cool, calm, and collected coach, as someone they wanted to play for and therefore, make it more difficult to keep homegrown talent? How 'bout Buzz? Would he be on the hot seat or begin to feel he can't take MU any farther? Man, a Horizon League team passing up a big time conference team right in your own state, go figure.
Happy Easter, Tom Crean.
The irony of your post is that the year before Tom Crean arrived, UWGB actually was ranked ahead of us.
1999 RPI:
123. Wisc.-Gr. Bay 18 11 .4777 178 .5176 124. Memphis 13 15 .5374 81 .5172
125. Maine 18 9 .4597 219 .5166
126. N. Arizona 18 8 .4476 252 .5163
127. San Diego 16 9 .4615 216 .5150
128. Niagara 17 12 .4919 149 .5150
129. Marquette 14 15 .5151 115 .5123 Keep in mind that this masks the fact that our SOS was boosted by a tougher schedule (MU's SOS was 115 compared to UWGB's rank of 178)
So, thank you, Tom Crean.
Quote from: Marquette84 on April 04, 2010, 09:53:46 AM
The irony of your post is that the year before Tom Crean arrived, UWGB actually was ranked ahead of us.
1999 RPI:
123. Wisc.-Gr. Bay 18 11 .4777 178 .5176
124. Memphis 13 15 .5374 81 .5172
125. Maine 18 9 .4597 219 .5166
126. N. Arizona 18 8 .4476 252 .5163
127. San Diego 16 9 .4615 216 .5150
128. Niagara 17 12 .4919 149 .5150
129. Marquette 14 15 .5151 115 .5123
Keep in mind that this masks the fact that our SOS was boosted by a tougher schedule (MU's SOS was 115 compared to UWGB's rank of 178)
So, thank you, Tom Crean.
Agreed. We were also facing the future of a Krunti Hester era as well. Guess posters like PRN and 4everwarriors conveniently forget about those thongs whilst they bash TC.
Quote from: willie warrior on April 04, 2010, 09:20:06 AM
Even more importantly:
If a mid major like Butler, with a group of unknown kids can get this far (and may win the whole damn thing), then there is no excuse for our expectations to be low. All you need is good coaching, good camaraderie, some talent(even if not big name), and some luck.
We should expect similar results from our program--and no I am not saying Final 4 every year, but at least compete for regular season confernce Championship and Sweet 16 appearances. After all, we have a bigger budget, better confernce to recruit to and a greater recruiting base.
But the fact that we're in a major conference makes it pretty hard to "expect" to compete for a conference championship every single year. Lots more competition than the Horizon League.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on April 04, 2010, 09:37:42 AM
By this measure IU was barely the 8th best team in the state of Indiana this year. The good news is they have only direction to go.
Last RPI (March 14 http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_Men.html )
Butler = 12
Purdue = 16
ND = 49
IUPUI = 83
Indiana State = 88
Valpo = 186
Ball State = 220
IU = 222
IPFW = 224
Evansville=250
Quote from: Marquette84 on April 04, 2010, 09:53:46 AM
So, thank you, Tom Crean.
Yes, and thank you Tom Crean for leaving. How's that dream job working out for ya, big timer?
I really don't expect butler's success to affect IU's recruiting. Most top players want exposure, and they will get much more at IU than at Butler
Quote from: willie warrior on April 04, 2010, 09:20:06 AM
Even more importantly:
If a mid major like Butler, with a group of unknown kids can get this far (and may win the whole damn thing), then there is no excuse for our expectations to be low. All you need is good coaching, good camaraderie, some talent(even if not big name), and some luck.
We should expect similar results from our program--and no I am not saying Final 4 every year, but at least compete for regular season confernce Championship and Sweet 16 appearances. After all, we have a bigger budget, better confernce to recruit to and a greater recruiting base.
So what team shouldn't expect to see the same success as Butler or as you put...regular season conference championships and sweet 16 appearances? Only 16 teams can do that...
How many Butler players were IU commits?
Butler does not get the respect that it deserves. I am pretty sure that if you compare MU's overall record to Butlers over the last 10-15 years you will find that Butler has won significantly more games than MU. It really is not fare to Butler consider UW Green Bay their equal. UW Green Bay beat UW Madison this year and it will have no major effect on UW.
Seriously, its over. He's gone. We are in a better spot. Its time to let go and give it up.
Quote from: willie warrior on April 04, 2010, 09:20:06 AM
Even more importantly:
If a mid major like Butler, with a group of unknown kids can get this far (and may win the whole damn thing), then there is no excuse for our expectations to be low. All you need is good coaching, good camaraderie, some talent(even if not big name), and some luck.
We should expect similar results from our program--and no I am not saying Final 4 every year, but at least compete for regular season confernce Championship and Sweet 16 appearances. After all, we have a bigger budget, better confernce to recruit to and a greater recruiting base.
Great point. Maybe a tad too ambitious, but certainly the expectations should be closer to that than the posters here.
Quote from: avid1010 on April 04, 2010, 06:46:25 PM
So what team shouldn't expect to see the same success as Butler or as you put...regular season conference championships and sweet 16 appearances? Only 16 teams can do that...
Like I said above, maybe willie's outline was just a tad too ambitious, but I read a poster here saying that we shouldn't expect next year's team to be able to repeat the success of this team - and that was only 11 conference wins for 5th place and a first round bow-out. We should most certainly expect at least that, and probably more.
Private schools like Butler, Marquette and Gonzaga don't have the margin for error that the state schools have. Those schools, especially those that have big time football programs, can afford to have down years...even down decades...but have the resources to return to prominence after they slip. The college football landscape is littered with private schools that were once powers who have come upon hard times. DePaul, Loyola, St. Johns, San Francisco, etc.
So honestly, IU is a better program than Butler. It's a program that has resources that Butler doesn't have and will be able to weather this downslide better than Butler would be able to weather one.
On a side note: The fact that Marquette was once a member of what is now the Horizon League, a league that DePaul at the time wouldn't even consider joining, and is now a member of the Big East is damn near miraculous. We owe a great deal to the visionary leadership of the MU administration, and the success of Kevin O'Neill and Tom Crean for getting us in this position.
Quote from: TJ on April 04, 2010, 11:04:26 PM
Great point. Maybe a tad too ambitious, but certainly the expectations should be closer to that than the posters here.
Like I said above, maybe willie's outline was just a tad too ambitious, but I read a poster here saying that we shouldn't expect next year's team to be able to repeat the success of this team - and that was only 11 conference wins for 5th place and a first round bow-out. We should most certainly expect at least that, and probably more.
I just get a kick out of people who see others doing well, and then expect MU to be no different. From an outsiders point of view there are plenty of teams with more $$$ than MU that don't do nearly as well. That same type of logic should be used to say we can do no better than them. So I think the only thing you can do is look at an individual team, and look at what they are doing to compete at a high level. By Willie's logic, UW-Milwaukee, UW-GB, etc. should all be competing at the level Butler is. I hate when people make demands, but offer no suggestions for how to get there. If Butler would have had Willie's type of attitude from the start, they wouldn't be where they are now.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on April 04, 2010, 07:15:28 AM
to MU's basketball program and Buzz if UW-Green Bay was playing for the NCAA Championship on Monday night?
Obviously, UWGB would be looked on as the preeminent program in the state. Would instate recruits see the young, cool, calm, and collected coach, as someone they wanted to play for and therefore, make it more difficult to keep homegrown talent? How 'bout Buzz? Would he be on the hot seat or begin to feel he can't take MU any farther? Man, a Horizon League team passing up a big time conference team right in your own state, go figure.
Happy Easter, Tom Crean.
Actually,
three big time conference teams right in your own state. (ND and Purdue, incl.) Which makes the point, Butler is
so good this year, I don't see any problem with being behind them. Finishing behind IUPUI, Indiana State, Valpo., and Ball State, now
that's a problem.
This could still work out for Mr. Crean. Verdell Jones III was a find for him, and all of the rest of his decent players are going to be sophomores and juniors next year, including his two best, who are both Freshmen. If they finish 50% next year, improve again the next year, AND he gets a respectable number of recruits out of Indiana's next two graduating classes which are great, then he'll be fine. And we'll have him to kick around a while longer.
Quote from: avid1010 on April 04, 2010, 06:46:25 PM
So what team shouldn't expect to see the same success as Butler or as you put...regular season conference championships and sweet 16 appearances? Only 16 teams can do that...
That's my point--we should be one of those 16. Why not? Here we go again--because it is too difficult!
Quote from: willie warrior on April 05, 2010, 09:14:37 AM
That's my point--we should be one of those 16. Why not? Here we go again--because it is too difficult!
So how do you get there? Why couldn't Calhoun, Williams, Howland, etc. live up to your expectations. Only 16 teams make it...how do you expect MU to be a top 16 team every year?
Quote from: avid1010 on April 05, 2010, 09:22:32 AM
So how do you get there? Why couldn't Calhoun, Williams, Howland, etc. live up to your expectations. Only 16 teams make it...how do you expect MU to be a top 16 team every year?
Because he's Willie...he doesn't often make sense or provide any real insight...other than the fact that WE NEED A DECENT BIG!!
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on April 05, 2010, 09:37:58 AM
Because he's Willie...he doesn't often make sense or provide any real insight...other than the fact that WE NEED A DECENT BIG!!
I don't often agree with willie, but he makes a half decent point here. We, as in everyone involved from top of MU to fans, need to raise expectations above expecting 11 wins and top half of BE if we ever want to consistently do better than that. This year's results should be considered acceptable, not successful. I know there were hardships and injuries and short benches, but we really didn't accomplish anything significant. The goal should certainly be set higher.
Quote from: avid1010 on April 05, 2010, 08:25:54 AM
I just get a kick out of people who see others doing well, and then expect MU to be no different. From an outsiders point of view there are plenty of teams with more $$$ than MU that don't do nearly as well. That same type of logic should be used to say we can do no better than them. So I think the only thing you can do is look at an individual team, and look at what they are doing to compete at a high level. By Willie's logic, UW-Milwaukee, UW-GB, etc. should all be competing at the level Butler is. I hate when people make demands, but offer no suggestions for how to get there. If Butler would have had Willie's type of attitude from the start, they wouldn't be where they are now.
Here is another reason UWGB (and others like them) will never really compete.
http://www.wisconsinrapidstribune.com/article/20100404/WRT02/4040499/1829/wrt02/Salary-could-be-an-issue-in-UWGB-coaching-search
Quote from: TJ on April 05, 2010, 10:43:40 AM
but we really didn't accomplish anything significant. The goal should certainly be set higher.
Really? What were your expectations coming into this year? What were the goals for MU this season? If you don't think MU accomplished anything this year I don't think you watched much MU basketball.
Quote from: avid1010 on April 05, 2010, 06:37:29 PM
Really? What were your expectations coming into this year? What were the goals for MU this season? If you don't think MU accomplished anything this year I don't think you watched much MU basketball.
Going into the season, I thought the situation was comparable to Novak's senior year (and I still do). My preseason expectation for this year was about 10-11 conf wins and a spot in the tourney, which I know is easy to say because that's what happened, but I am serious. I think the goals for the year should have been at least that, plus a tourney win or two. Set goals high and strive for them, don't set mediocre goals and bask in your mediocrity. And I didn't say MU didn't accomplish anything, I said MU didn't accomplish anything
significant. It was an entertaining, fun, frustrating season, but no one's going to look back on this season 10 years from now and feel pride that we beat every team below us in the standings at least once (except ND) and lost to every team above us. There won't be a banner that says "exceeded preseason expectations".
Now, what are your expectations for next year? What should the goals for 2010-2011 be? I think the goal should be at least 13-14 conf wins and a Sweet 16.
Quote from: TJ on April 06, 2010, 12:14:49 AM
Going into the season, I thought the situation was comparable to Novak's senior year (and I still do). My preseason expectation for this year was about 10-11 conf wins and a spot in the tourney, which I know is easy to say because that's what happened, but I am serious. I think the goals for the year should have been at least that, plus a tourney win or two. Set goals high and strive for them, don't set mediocre goals and bask in your mediocrity. And I didn't say MU didn't accomplish anything, I said MU didn't accomplish anything significant. It was an entertaining, fun, frustrating season, but no one's going to look back on this season 10 years from now and feel pride that we beat every team below us in the standings at least once (except ND) and lost to every team above us. There won't be a banner that says "exceeded preseason expectations".
Now, what are your expectations for next year? What should the goals for 2010-2011 be? I think the goal should be at least 13-14 conf wins and a Sweet 16.
Let's start out by stating that my goals for this year were very minimal when at the time the injuries occurred, I thought we lost our only true point guard and only true center...not to mention the Maymon fun. With such a small roster and short bench, I would have been thrilled if someone would have told me MU would be in every game and make the NCAA tourney. Some very knowledgeable people on this site were worried about MU's ability to defend and hit the three given past performance and size. So, to have a goal to reach the Sweet 16 and win the BEAST last year was fine, but to have fans who sit back in their Lazy Boy and act like they it's just a given that MU should do this on a yearly basis is a joke. They should be calling for the heads of Williams, Howland, and Calhoun. I guess I just get a kick out of alums and fans acting like if they demand something it will come true. It's like DePaul having an attitude that they just have to go hire a huge name coach, yet they haven't put themselves in the position to do so yet. If I managed my employees with simply one very high goal and no benchmarks I'd be setting them up for failure.
So if the goal for MU is to compete for BEAST championships and a Sweet 16 and better finishes in the NCAA tourney that's reasonable, but I think you need to realize they hit a number of benchmarks this year that will help them get to that point. Those benchmarks are most significant to me because they would really be the only tangible and fair measures of the year. I don't think it's at all okay to call this year insignificant because we didn't win the BEAST and make it to the Sweet 16. Buzz began to prove he can put a competitive team on the floor no matter the situation, and we had a number of both young and experienced players show huge improvements from the previous year. So I'm not looking for a BEAST championship or Sweet 16 appearance next year. I'm looking to see Buzz develop a talented freshmen class, I'm looking to see Butler and DJO take over the team, I'm looking to see guys like E-Will, Yous, Otule, Junior, etc. take big strides forward... I'm not sure that that translates to a BEAST championship or Sweet 16 run just yet, but it puts MU on track to get there.
Quote from: avid1010 on April 06, 2010, 07:37:25 AMIf I managed my employees with simply one very high goal and no benchmarks I'd be setting them up for failure.
There is a balance to strike of course, and I do recognize that willie went too far, but on the other hand you're not going to let your employees do the opposite and set really low goals with lots of insignificant benchmarks either. Achieving goals should be an accomplishment, not just what you're "supposed to do."
I felt going into the season that everyone here set their sights so low that they were bound to be happy by whatever was put on the floor. I'm hoping that doesn't happen next year.
Quote from: avid1010 on April 06, 2010, 07:37:25 AMI don't think it's at all okay to call this year insignificant because we didn't win the BEAST and make it to the Sweet 16. Buzz began to prove he can put a competitive team on the floor no matter the situation, and we had a number of both young and experienced players show huge improvements from the previous year.
If you remember that in 10 years, I'll be impressed. More likely you'll remember an average year with an average number of wins and a tourney loss. I'm not saying there wasn't anything to be happy about, but we shouldn't be going around pounding our chests and acting cocky either. We were a top 40 team, we won 20 games, 11 in conference, we made the tournament... all good things, but nothing lasting or significant.
Not to be a d*ck, but I hope we all know that "our expectations" have ZERO effect on how the team actually does.
If I expect Jimmy Butler to score 30/game next year, that doesn't really do anything.
There are a handful of people whose "expectations" need to be met (coach, president, AD, handful of major donors).
Outside of those people, it really doesn't matter what all of us think. The only impact we can really have is attendance, but that usually lags behind performance.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on April 06, 2010, 08:37:09 AM
Not to be a d*ck, but I hope we all know that "our expectations" have ZERO effect on how the team actually does.
If I expect Jimmy Butler to score 30/game next year, that doesn't really do anything.
There are a handful of people whose "expectations" need to be met (coach, president, AD, handful of major donors).
Outside of those people, it really doesn't matter what all of us think. The only impact we can really have is attendance, but that usually lags behind performance.
Mostly true, but if fans are happy, what motivation does leadership have to demand more?
Quote from: TJ on April 06, 2010, 08:40:59 AM
Mostly true, but if fans are happy, what motivation does leadership have to demand more?
Let's face it, on some levels, MU hoops is a marketing and revenue tool for MU. How well the team actually does doesn't really mean squat. If they are on TV a lot (marketing the school), sell out a lot of home games and sell merch (creating revenue), then a lot of people will be satisfied.
At the end of the day, MU is a school, not a pro basketball team. If the basketball team is creating revenue and adding value to the school, most of the board members and higher ups will be satisfied.
Now, what does MU need to do to keep selling out games and sell additional jerseys? Well, making the sweet 16 every few years will probably keep that ball rolling.