MUScoop

I'm not asking if Lazar's number should be retired today but should he eventually recieve the honor?

All time at Marquette, Lazar finished 2nd in scoring (1839) and 5th in rebounding (910).

If you add rebounding and scoring Lazar is in the company of other retired numbers:
1. Lazar Hayward 2749
2. Bo Ellis 2748
3. Don Kojis 2726
2. George Thompson 2461

Not bad for a guy playing out of position for four years and as the 4th option for three.

Also he's the only member of the 1800-900 club  :D

Eventually, I think so.  

But I think they should retire his first # at MU, #24 :)

Absolutely not. 

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 30, 2010, 12:12:12 PM
Absolutely not. 

Can I get some reasoning?

Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 30, 2010, 12:08:25 PM
Eventually, I think so.  

But I think they should retire his first # at MU, #24 :)

I think they should retire his name but not his number.  What are the chances another Lazar will come here?  And if he does he'll just have to have Lazar II.

If we retire Lazar's number, does that mean we also have to retire McNeal, James and Matthews?  Same logic applies.  If yes, then should we retire Deiner and Novak?  If yes, how about Tony Miller, Brian Wardle Chris Crawford and Jim Mac?  Going further back, how about Michael Wilson and Oliver Lee?

So I voted no.  Now if you can separate Lazar's achievements from the rest, I'll change my vote.  Otherwise a vote for Lazar is like saying we should have 15 more numbers in the rafters.

Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 30, 2010, 12:13:08 PM
Can I get some reasoning?

Sure.  He's a very good player on some good teams and he put up some nice statistics.  But, like Mc Neal, Matthews and DJ, he wasn't an elite player by any stretch.  He wasn't dominant.  He's kind of like a Tony Miller or a Tony Smith....if you put his jersey up there, you are going to have to put about a dozen more up there too.

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 30, 2010, 12:18:22 PM
If we retire Lazar's number, does that mean we also have to retire McNeal, James and Matthews?  Same logic applies.  If yes, then should we retire Deiner and Novak?  If yes, how about Tony Miller, Brian Wardle Chris Crawford and Jim Mac?  Going further back, how about Michael Wilson and Oliver Lee?

Lazar's numbers are more impressive than every guy you just named.

Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 30, 2010, 12:40:14 PM
Lazar's numbers are more impressive than every guy you just named.

But see, I'm not really all that excited about "accumulation statistics."  Players today play more seasons and more games than players before them did.  His numbers also benefit from the fact that there was a spot for him in which to play.  What if there had been an All-American at his position for his first two years, and then he only started the last two with similar results as his actual last two years?  Would you be arguing for his jersey being retired then?

And Tony Miller's numbers are better anyway.  I am fairly certain that no one will come close to his career assist totals.

Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 30, 2010, 12:40:14 PM
Lazar's numbers are more impressive than every guy you just named.

If this is the criteria, why was Wade's number retired?  He played only two seasons and did not accumulate the stats like could have had he stayed.

If what he did was "enough"  how about retiring Rjax's 55 too?  Many argue that without him, no final four.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 30, 2010, 12:44:10 PM
  What if there had been an All-American at his position for his first two years, and then he only started the last two with similar results as his actual last two years? 

But there wasn't.  I thought honors and awards were based on actual events not hypothetical situations.

No. He was not an AA (honorable mention doesn't count) nor an MVP of a region, FF or conference. I would put Jimmy Mac's DPOY into this category but that is just me. I think we are too eager to jump to retire peoples numbers now days just so we can see the new guys get some recognition. I think part of this is due to many people on these boards not having witnessed what the current crop has down outside of DWade.

Oh - have to have earned their degree should also be on there - but that is just me.

QuoteIf this is the criteria, why was Wade's number retired?  He played only two seasons and did not accumulate the stats like could have had he stayed.

Does what Wade has done in the NBA have any affect on his number being retired? I'm sure it didn't hurt.

So finishing in the top 5 of two huge categories means nothing?

Quote from: MU_B2002 on March 30, 2010, 12:53:21 PM
But there wasn't.  I thought honors and awards were based on actual events not hypothetical situations.

Yes, but IMO, I would rather put up a guy who was great for two years (Wade) rather than a guy who was very good for four years.  Hayward's stats exist because he played a lot - not because he was a great player.

I mean, should we really retire the jersey for a guy who was not even first team all-conference?

Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 30, 2010, 12:59:05 PM
So finishing in the top 5 of two huge categories means nothing?

It doesn't mean nothing, but it doesn't mean you are one of the all-time greats.  It just means you've played a lot. 

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 30, 2010, 01:02:22 PM

It doesn't mean nothing, but it doesn't mean you are one of the all-time greats.  It just means you've played a lot. 

Just to play devil's advocate, there are a lot of players who played a lot at MU but didn't put up numbers similar to the ones Lazar put up.

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 30, 2010, 12:49:32 PM
If this is the criteria, why was Wade's number retired?  He played only two seasons and did not accumulate the stats like could have had he stayed.

If what he did was "enough"  how about retiring Rjax's 55 too?  Many argue that without him, no final four.

Wade was a transcendent player.  He dominated games on a regular basis and his performance against Kentucky was one of the best in the history of the NCAA tournament.  Not to mention the fact that he is largely responsible for bringing the program back to national prominence, and yes, his NBA career has something to do with it.  Lazar is a good player but any attempt to compare him to Wade or most other players with numbers hanging in the Bradley Center rafters is simply a manipulation of stats to distort reality. 

You know what they say about statistics.  They are like bikinis.  What they reveal is suggestive but what they conceal is vital.

I don't think that statistics alone should get somene's number retired.  The player has to do something specail, like make a deep tournament run, or have a huge game on a huge stage.  Lazar didn't do any of those things so I don't think his number deserves to be retired.  I love Lazar, he is one of my favorite players of all time but he lacks the post season credentials to have his number retired.  

IMO you can't retire Lazar's jersey until you retire McNeal's.

Lazar was an HO all american, 2nd team BE and 2nd in scoring.

Jerel was 2nd team All American (In a much tougher field), 1st team BE (In a much tougher BE) and 1st in scoring.

I vote no and the only on of the latest "4" to retire their Jersey should be Jerel.

It's probably too late for this, but I'd like to see Marquette adopt a system where they have two categories: Retired Jerseys and Honored Jerseys. UNC does something similar (probably because they'd have no numbers left if they didn't). At UNC a player's Jersey/Number is retired if, and only if, he win a National Player of the Year award. Other players simply have their numbers hung in the rafters (aka "honored") but not retired.

Obviously, MU is no UNC in terms of basketball tradition, but I'd like to see players who are First Team All-Americans get their numbers retired and perhaps All-Conference performers honored (though that still might be too many). Recent players like Lazar, DJ, Wes, Diener, Novak, etc were great players for Marquette and it would be nice for them to be recognized, but none of them are in the same category as Wade or Thompson or Meminger.

I think it should be less about individual accomplishments and the mix of those accomplishments with team success.
We didn't have any post season success under lazar, wes, dj, or mcneal.

I wouldn't have a problem w/ retiring novaks or dieners because of their individual success and their final four appearance.

Quote from: DJO's Pump Fake on March 30, 2010, 01:18:44 PM
IMO you can't retire Lazar's jersey until you retire McNeal's.

Lazar was an HO all american, 2nd team BE and 2nd in scoring.

Jerel was 2nd team All American (In a much tougher field), 1st team BE (In a much tougher BE) and 1st in scoring.

I vote no and the only on of the latest "4" to retire their Jersey should be Jerel.

I believe Jerel's number will be retired. Jeronne Maymon was originally going to wear #22 at MU but switched to #25 prior to the season. Vander Blue wore #22 in HS but is apparently going to be wearing #2 at MU. It's also very possible that I'm simply reading too much into that.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 30, 2010, 01:21:19 PM
It's probably too late for this, but I'd like to see Marquette adopt a system where they have two categories: Retired Jerseys and Honored Jerseys. UNC does something similar (probably because they'd have no numbers left if they didn't). At UNC a player's Jersey/Number is retired if, and only if, he win a National Player of the Year award. Other players simply have their numbers hung in the rafters (aka "honored") but not retired.

Obviously, MU is no UNC in terms of basketball tradition, but I'd like to see players who are First Team All-Americans get their numbers retired and perhaps All-Conference performers honored (though that still might be too many). Recent players like Lazar, DJ, Wes, Diener, Novak, etc were great players for Marquette and it would be nice for them to be recognized, but none of them are in the same category as Wade or Thompson or Meminger.

That is false. Here is the criteria (which I also think MU should adopt):

To have his jersey honored, a player must have met one of the following criteria[34]:

   * MVP of a National Championship-winning team
   * Member of a gold medal-winning Olympic team
   * First- or second-team All-America
   * ACC Player of the Year
   * NCAA Tournament MOP

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 30, 2010, 01:21:19 PM
UNC does something similar (probably because they'd have no numbers left if they didn't). At UNC a player's Jersey/Number is retired if, and only if, he win a National Player of the Year award. Other players simply have their numbers hung in the rafters (aka "honored") but not retired.

You hit the nail on the head with the basketball tradition of UNC.  When you actually sit in the Dean Dome, look up at the rafters and see the immortal names on those jerseys you understand how truly great that program is.  There aren't many names up there that average basketball fans wouldn't recognize, Jordan, Worthy, Stackhouse, Carter, Jamison, Daugherty...  I don't think it would have the same awe inspiring effect at MU.

i would like to see Jerel's number retired because he is the program's leading scorer. i'm not a big fan of using stats over a career to make judgments as to jersey retirement either, but theres something that sticks out to me about the scoring record.  when you put the ball in the basket more times than anyone else in the history of the program, your jersey should be retired.  not particularly poetic, but eh, oh well.

Quote from: Chili on March 30, 2010, 01:25:50 PM
That is false. Here is the criteria (which I also think MU should adopt):

To have his jersey honored, a player must have met one of the following criteria[34]:

   * MVP of a National Championship-winning team
   * Member of a gold medal-winning Olympic team
   * First- or second-team All-America
   * ACC Player of the Year
   * NCAA Tournament MOP

My original statement is not false. You misunderstood what I wrote. You listed to the requirements to have your jersey honored by UNC.

Jersey Retirement: "For a North Carolina men's player to have his jersey retired, he must win at least one of six national player of the year awards: The Associated Press, the U.S. Basketball Writers Association, the National Association of Basketball Coaches, Sporting News, the Wooden Award and the Naismith Award."

Double post.

Based strictly on the numbers, I'd venture a guess this wouldn't even be the vaguest consideration if everyone didn't feel so emotionally invested in Lazar Hayward for the leadership he gave to this team. If it's based strictly on stats, he probably shouldn't - and probably won't - have his number retired. But he'll still go down in Marquette history as one of the best players this university has ever had.

Personally, I feel much sadder to see Lazar go then I did even seeing the Big Three go last year.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 30, 2010, 01:54:05 PM
My original statement is not false. You misunderstood what I wrote. You listed to the requirements to have your jersey honored by UNC.

Jersey Retirement: "For a North Carolina men's player to have his jersey retired, he must win at least one of six national player of the year awards: The Associated Press, the U.S. Basketball Writers Association, the National Association of Basketball Coaches, Sporting News, the Wooden Award and the Naismith Award."

You are correct. Rough day at work leads to misreading. My bad

Quote from: 96warrior on March 30, 2010, 02:03:50 PM
Based strictly on the numbers, I'd venture a guess this wouldn't even be the vaguest consideration if everyone didn't feel so emotionally invested in Lazar Hayward for the leadership he gave to this team. If it's based strictly on stats, he probably shouldn't - and probably won't - have his number retired. But he'll still go down in Marquette history as one of the best players this university has ever had.

Personally, I feel much sadder to see Lazar go then I did even seeing the Big Three go last year.

I love Lazar, I really do, but unfortunately, I think his place in history will diminish with time.  I will bet that 20 years from now Lazar will be that other really good player that played with the big three and had a really good senior year prior to the beginning of the next great MU player's career.

i voted yes before reading any of the posts. I didn't think I'd be in the minority. Lazar's stats and leadership deserve consideration in my opinion. I think its tough to argue tournament success is part of the criteria because if you're an amazing player on an otherwise mediocre team, you'll get over looked. If it was up to me I'd put Lazar's number up there. But I think there are good examples of players like that who haven't had their numbers retired (smith, Miller, Diener, Novak, Mac). Lazar may end up finding himself in this group, but I don't want him to.  

I think the key to the Post is "Someday." Ask me in 20 years. We'll see what comes of Lazar's and Marquette's future.  If Lazar and the big 3 end up being the peak of MU basketball or something along those lines or if Lazar has a great post MU career, maybe we will retire the jersey. Regardless of a retired number or not, he's still one of the best (statistically) and one of my personal favorites to wear the Warrior jersey.

Quote from: MUSF on March 30, 2010, 02:22:31 PM
I love Lazar, I really do, but unfortunately, I think his place in history will diminish with time.  I will bet that 20 years from now Lazar will be that other really good player that played with the big three and had a really good senior year prior to the beginning of the next great MU player's career.

Definitely see your point about the poignancy of Lazar and this year's team diminishing over time, but really hope that doesn't hold true. Had we made a deeper tourney run, this team would have been one for the ages. I still think that people will remember this year's team as being virtually written off early on, in the shadows after departure of the Amigos, remember how they blew away everyone's expectations and remember that the guy leading the charge was Lazar.

Sniff, tear....

Like a lot of other posters on here, I love Lazar.  He is one of my favorite players (ahead of any of last year's seniors).  I love the way he played, and I love that he played out of position without any apparent objection.  But, I voted no.

In the unlikely chance that Lazar reads this board:  thanks for four great years, Lazar.  You were a warrior and I loved the way you played the game and represented my university.  I am, and always will be, proud that you played for Marquette.

Definitely not.

Where does Hayward rank all-time in BE scoring? Where does he rank all-time in rebounding in the conference? Look at where he sits in these categories and it will give you a good perspective on things. Then, look at the players that have done more and you will see that a lot of other schools havent retired the numbers of those players. Hayward was a very good player, but i think it would be almost comical to retire his number. We would be setting the bar very low for the future. Look at programs like Pitt, Cuse, UConn....would they retire his number? Hell no. Those schools get a player of Lazar's calibur frequently.

Quote from: goodgreatgrand on March 30, 2010, 02:44:30 PM
Definitely not.

Where does Hayward rank all-time in BE scoring? Where does he rank all-time in rebounding in the conference? Look at where he sits in these categories and it will give you a good perspective on things. Then, look at the players that have done more and you will see that a lot of other schools havent retired the numbers of those players. Hayward was a very good player, but i think it would be almost comical to retire his number. We would be setting the bar very low for the future. Look at programs like Pitt, Cuse, UConn....would they retire his number? Hell no. Those schools get a player of Lazar's calibur frequently.

IMO, comparing players and stats across teams doesn't really make sense when it comes to retiring a jersey. Top tier programs get college players like D-Wade frequently as well. Should his number be taken down from the rafters?

Zar never had any true bigs on the teams he played on.  But, he was certainly a/the bulwark on NCAA teams his last 3 seasons.  Plus #2 in scoring and #5 in rebounding.  Plus he's been an outstanding representative for MU.  Also had honorable mention AA and played/started for the world University Games team.

Zar should have his uni honored at some point.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 30, 2010, 02:50:25 PM
IMO, comparing players and stats across teams doesn't really make sense when it comes to retiring a jersey. Top tier programs get college players like D-Wade frequently as well. Should his number be taken down from the rafters?

Wrong. A player of DWade is not acquired by anyone frequently. A year ago yesterday he played one of the greatest games ever witnessed in the NCAA tournament.

Here's how I see it.

Lazar was a good player. Lazar was not a great player.

Let me turn the tables on this.

Should Duke retire Jon Scheyer's number?

Quote from: marqptm on March 30, 2010, 03:23:27 PM
Here's how I see it.

Lazar was a good player. Lazar was not a great player.

Let me turn the tables on this.

Should Duke retire Jon Scheyer's number?

First of all, Lazar was and is a great player. Not good, great. I could say the same thing about Jerel and he's not even playing in the NBA. I do see your point on retiring the number and I don't think its going to happen either. Let's hope he can first make an impact like Wes is. Anyway, IMO the next retired jersey should be Diener.

Quote from: jwalsh on March 30, 2010, 03:41:22 PM
First of all, Lazar was and is a great player. Not good, great. I could say the same thing about Jerel and he's not even playing in the NBA. I do see your point on retiring the number and I don't think its going to happen either. Let's hope he can first make an impact like Wes is. Anyway, IMO the next retired jersey should be Diener.

How is he a great player? Not hating on LH, but let's be honest here.

In 10 years when you're sitting at a bar talking about Marquette legends like George Thompson, Butch Lee & Dwyane Wade. Lazar Hayward's name will be nowhere near the conversation.

Quote from: jwalsh on March 30, 2010, 03:41:22 PM
First of all, Lazar was and is a great player. Not good, great. I could say the same thing about Jerel and he's not even playing in the NBA. I do see your point on retiring the number and I don't think its going to happen either. Let's hope he can first make an impact like Wes is. Anyway, IMO the next retired jersey should be Diener.

Tony Miller >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Travis Diener

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 30, 2010, 03:48:25 PM

Tony Miller >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Travis Diener

+1

However, since TD was here more recently and more of a fan favorite, people will call for his number.

Diener
Novak
James
Matthews
Hayward

None of these players have even a slight chance of having their numbers retired.

Quote from: marqptm on March 30, 2010, 03:21:18 PM
Wrong. A player of DWade is not acquired by anyone frequently. A year ago yesterday he played one of the greatest games ever witnessed in the NCAA tournament.

You're kidding yourself if you believe this to be true. While I will agree that his triple-double against UK was one of the greatest tourney performances ever, that one game doesn't trump everything else. We're talking only about a player's college career yet you don't think that there are many players who are the same caliber as D-Wade?

I'm as big a D-Wade fan as anyone but you're completely delusion if you truly believe that.

 I loved Lazar as much as anyone else, but I think the main point on this argument is the perspective its being looked at from. I graduated in 2008, therefore my Marquette basketball knowledge doesn't expand much before 2004.

Many posters (judging by their arguing points) are either current students or alumni older than myself. I do not feel that his number should be retired, he was (arguably) the 4th best player on the team for 2 years and the best for one. I do believe he was a good player for Marquette, not great, I cannot figure what would make him great...

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 30, 2010, 04:05:47 PM
You're kidding yourself if you believe this to be true. While I will agree that his triple-double against UK was one of the greatest tourney performances ever, that one game doesn't trump everything else. We're talking only about a player's college career yet you don't think that there are many players who are the same caliber as D-Wade?

I'm as big a D-Wade fan as anyone but you're completely delusion if you truly believe that.

You said:

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 30, 2010, 02:50:25 PM
Top tier programs get college players like D-Wade frequently as well.

If you're going to call me delusional, please back your statement up.

Frequent - "coming at short intervals or habitually".

So let's say there are 10 'top tier' programs. According to your statement, they acquire Dwyane Wade like talent frequently. The average recruit class is four players? So, I'll be nice and limit the definition of frequently to half of the time. Meaning the 10 'top tier' programs acquire 2 players each year that are on Dwyane Wade's level. So that would mean in the decade that Dwyane Wade played in, there were 200 players equal or better than Dwyane Wade? You're crazy. However, there are more 200 players equal or better than Lazar Hayward in the decade that he has played in.

Players in the '00 Decade on Wade's Level:
Emeka Okafor
Carmelo Anthony
Tyler Hansbrough
Chris Paul
Kevin Durant
Blake Griffin
Kevin Durant
Shane Battier
Jason Williams
Stephen Curry

Anyone else to make that list more frequent?

Quote from: marqptm on March 30, 2010, 04:27:26 PM
You said:

If you're going to call me delusional, please back your statement up.

Frequent - "coming at short intervals or habitually".

So let's say there are 10 'top tier' programs. According to your statement, they acquire Dwyane Wade like talent frequently. The average recruit class is four players? So, I'll be nice and limit the definition of frequently to half of the time. Meaning the 10 'top tier' programs acquire 2 players each year that are on Dwyane Wade's level. So that would mean in the decade that Dwyane Wade played in, there were 200 players equal or better than Dwyane Wade? You're crazy. However, there are more 200 players equal or better than Lazar Hayward in the decade that he has played in.

Players in the '00 Decade on Wade's Level:
Emeka Okafor
Carmelo Anthony
Tyler Hansbrough
Chris Paul
Kevin Durant
Blake Griffin
Kevin Durant
Shane Battier
Jason Williams
Stephen Curry

Anyone else to make that list more frequent?

I'm not going to debate the semantics of the word "frequently" with you. I will, however, point out that Wade was a 1st Team Consensus All-American and every year there are 5 players who reach that status and another 5+ who are named to the 2nd Team. Over a 10 year span, that means there have been roughly 100 players who are at, or near, the same level as D-Wade.

I will condede that top tier programs don't have a pipeline of Wade-type players. I will also point out that nearly 25 major programs have had multiple Consensus All-Americans since 2000 (including Duke who has had 6, including 3 AP POYs, not counting Elton Brand in '99). That might not be your definition of "frequently" but if Marquette had a Consensus All-American every 4-5 seasons, most fans would be thrilled.

I think Lazar's jersey should be retired...after he plays some professional ball. Having a long and solid NBA career will DEFINITELY help the cause. (But Miller would be the exception.)

But first...
Jim Chones (did he eventually graduate?)
Tony Miller
Jim McIlvaine
Chris Crawford
Travis Diener
Steve Novak
Jerel McNeal


Possibly?
Wes Matthews
Dominic James
Lazar Hayward


A sniff but probably not:
Anthony Pieper
Brian Wardle
Aaron Hutchins (one of my fav all-time)

We could just go the UNC route, honor players up in the rafters, but saving jersey retirement for those select few.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 30, 2010, 09:45:39 PM
I'm not going to debate the semantics of the word "frequently" with you. I will, however, point out that Wade was a 1st Team Consensus All-American and every year there are 5 players who reach that status and another 5+ who are named to the 2nd Team. Over a 10 year span, that means there have been roughly 100 players who are at, or near, the same level as D-Wade.

I will condede that top tier programs don't have a pipeline of Wade-type players. I will also point out that nearly 25 major programs have had multiple Consensus All-Americans since 2000 (including Duke who has had 6, including 3 AP POYs, not counting Elton Brand in '99). That might not be your definition of "frequently" but if Marquette had a Consensus All-American every 4-5 seasons, most fans would be thrilled.

1st team All-Americans is a significantly flawed metric.  There are up years and down years for talent in the NCAA. One year's first teamer would be a second teamer in other years, not to mention, all all-americans are not created equal. 

77ncaachamps, I can't really respect anyone's opinion on this subject that would bring up Anthony Pieper as a potential jersey retirement canidate.  Did you mean to put that in teal?

Diener is a no-brainer.

Nobody else should be retired...and I continue to maintain that the fact that Doc Rivers number is in the rafters is an absolute outrage. I wonder whose idea that was?

Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on March 31, 2010, 10:58:58 AM
Diener is a no-brainer.

Nobody else should be retired...and I continue to maintain that the fact that Doc Rivers number is in the rafters is an absolute outrage. I wonder whose idea that was?

Agree 100% about Rivers, who I should love because I was at MU for his whole career. 

For those of you who think we ought to retire McNeal, James, Matthews, Lazar, etc. note that those guys played together for three years and we won a grand total of 0 conference championships, 0 conference tournaments championships and 2 NCAA first round tournament games.  You should do TONS better than that if those guys were really three or four of your all-time greats.

All four were better players than Rivers at MU, I love 'em all, but none of them should have their numbers retired.  Also, their scoring and rebounding numbers are inflated by compoariosn for several reasons, including because we play a lot more games now, they were not fighting high quality players ahaed of them for playing time early in their careers, and finally, we play at a faster pace under Crean and Buzz than we did under Al, Raymonds, Majerus, Dukiet (well maybe not Dukiet), O'Neill and Deane.

Quote from: MUSF on March 31, 2010, 10:41:14 AM
77ncaachamps, I can't really respect anyone's opinion on this subject that would bring up Anthony Pieper as a potential jersey retirement canidate.  Did you mean to put that in teal?

Not to mention Chris Crawford.

Quote from: CTWarrior on March 31, 2010, 11:48:01 AM
Agree 100% about Rivers, who I should love because I was at MU for his whole career. 

For those of you who think we ought to retire McNeal, James, Matthews, Lazar, etc. note that those guys played together for three years and we won a grand total of 0 conference championships, 0 conference tournaments championships and 2 NCAA first round tournament games.  You should do TONS better than that if those guys were really three or four of your all-time greats.

Amen. When it comes down to it, team accomplishments should take precedent. I don't consider McNeal, James or Matthews to be "all time greats" at MU. I do think Lazar is one of the, perhaps, 30 greatest players in MU history.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, I actually think DJO is a better player than McNeal...and I'll throw Matthews in there as well. Wes has made it big in the NBA, but he was not a big time college player. James is, quite frankly, the most overrated player I can remember ever playing at Marquette.

Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on March 31, 2010, 12:54:01 PM
Amen. When it comes down to it, team accomplishments should take precedent. I don't consider McNeal, James or Matthews to be "all time greats" at MU. I do think Lazar is one of the, perhaps, 30 greatest players in MU history.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, I actually think DJO is a better player than McNeal...and I'll throw Matthews in there as well. Wes has made it big in the NBA, but he was not a big time college player. James is, quite frankly, the most overrated player I can remember ever playing at Marquette.

You say this, but you also believe that retiring Diener's number is no-brainer. What exactly did the team accomplish with Diener being more than just a role player?

Am I the only one who thinks NBA performance should be a factor? (no i didn't read all the posts)

Diener was a key member of the final four and has had a decent amount of NBA success.  I don't think Lazar's numbers set him apart from any of the big 3.  If Lazar goes in the 2nd, earns a spot, and starts getting some minutes in a few years I'll change my vote.

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 30, 2010, 12:49:32 PM
If this is the criteria, why was Wade's number retired?  He played only two seasons and did not accumulate the stats like could have had he stayed.

If what he did was "enough"  how about retiring Rjax's 55 too?  Many argue that without him, no final four.

You may also remeber the firestorm that occurred when announcing the retiement of DWades number.  All forced down the throughts by the Tan One.  Number retiring policy was one had to graduate.  Just like Mu all Time Great MAurice Lucas had to wait 25 years until he got his degree.  AAll American, Played in atitle game, All -star NBA acreer, Won an NBA title, left early  etc. but waited 25 years until he got his degree.  DWade was rushed thru so Cream could strike while the iron was hot.  Nothing better than pointing at his banner while telling a recruit he reminds him of DWade.  

Same classless loser that gave Lazar george thompson's retired number and created that whole firestorm.  Glad to see He has started coming back to games and Buzz has remebraced him back into the program after he walked away from it do to that whole fiasco.  Funny thing is he would not dare touch tradition at Iu, here he thought he was bigger than the program, there he knows he is not.  Karma will have it's day with that scumbag

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 31, 2010, 02:03:06 PM
You say this, but you also believe that retiring Diener's number is no-brainer. What exactly did the team accomplish with Diener being more than just a role player?

What!? Diener was a "role player?" Think again, muchacho!

Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on March 31, 2010, 02:48:16 PM
What!? Diener was a "role player?" Think again, muchacho!

Re-read what I wrote.

Diener was a role player as a freshman and as sophomore (when the team went to the Final Four). Yes, I know he scored 29 points against Holy Cross but he was still a role player on that team, and a very good one at that. When he was "the man," he led the team to 2 NIT appearances.

i voted no based on the fact that we have what 10 number retired?  All of them were first team all-americans on great great teams.  Except for Doc Rivers ( another crean reach around).  If Mu changes its standards to consider him for retirment then maybe but he would have to stand in line behind about 20 others first.  

While lazar was a very fine player i beleive people get too coaught up in career numbers.  Career numbers can over shadow or undershadow a players true greatness.  For example had Brian Wardle not come along during a weak time in MU's fortunes he would never have had the type of numbers he had.  On a very strong team he would most likely had much reduced shot attempts and minutes his first two years.  The same can be said for the 3 amigos and LAzar.  If those guys joined very strong teams ala the 70's they would not have been the stars of necessity that they were in years 1 and 2.  There career number probbaly would have followed a path more like that of a Chris Crawford who joined an already very talented team and had to bide his time.  Not comparing Chris Crawford to the 3 amigos or Lazar just saying they did not have all-conference or future NBA players in front of them when they were underclassmen. 

Now this could devolve into a post on Creans abyssmal recruitng and why that was the case but it wont

I can't imagine how anyone could advocate that Chris Crawford's jersey be retired.  That said I do like the notion of hanging the jersey's in a place of honor and retiring only those that acheive an extremely unique level of success. 

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on March 31, 2010, 12:20:10 AM
I think Lazar's jersey should be retired...after he plays some professional ball. Having a long and solid NBA career will DEFINITELY help the cause. (But Miller would be the exception.)

But first...
Jim Chones (did he eventually graduate?)
Tony Miller
Jim McIlvaine
Chris Crawford
Travis Diener
Steve Novak
Jerel McNeal


Possibly?
Wes Matthews
Dominic James
Lazar Hayward


A sniff but probably not:
Anthony Pieper
Brian Wardle
Aaron Hutchins (one of my fav all-time)

I would not put Chris Crawford on this list, nor Steve Novak ahead of Lazar.  Novak and Lazar had comparable senior seasons, but Lazar played 4 years in the Big East and has better career numbers in socring and rebounding than either Crawford or Novak.

I know that list I threw up there was just off the top of my head.
I used an NBA career (other than Tony Miller) to kind of guide me.

But looking back, Crawford doesn't belong. Love the fact that his name can be added as ex-MUers in the NBA.

Pieper's mention was under "a sniff but NO" so he would only get consideration for placing in the top 10 stat categories each year he played. But seriously, no way he'd make it.

And the list of possibly jersey replacements weren't in order of importance.