For the nth time, Bo lost today because he did not have a plan B. All he has is his system. When a team is ready for his system and beats it, he has nothing to fall back on. He can only win one way. There are no adjustments. That is why he can do well in conference, because he can go 12-6 and have a successful year. In a one-and-done format, having only one way to play will eventuallly get you beat. But at least you will get beat the right way.
What will be the excuse this time form our friends to the west, they don't have the urban basketball moniker to use for this game.
Quote from: sailwi on March 21, 2010, 07:36:12 PM
What will be the excuse this time form our friends to the west, they don't have the urban basketball moniker to use for this game.
Maybe they'll blame the refs like we did.
If that's the case, don't you think the B10 teams would have figured out a way to beat him by now? They play Bo and the Badgers at least two times a year, so I would think they'd be beating Bucky night in and night out.
I'm an MU fan, but I think you have to give Bo and the Badgers some credit for being a pretty solid program over an extended period of time.
Last week on Mike and Mike they were talking about how you could judge a coach based on the ability to get more from his talent (a valid way of looking at it). Anyway they talked about who the really great coaches were. They mentioned Bo along with Roy Williams and a couple others. Anyway they said Roy's weakness was that if you could "beat his system you could beat him because he was unwilling to adapt during the game." They acted like Bo had this ability. Now I think Bo is a great coach and does a great job of getting the most out of his guys BUT adaptable he is NOT. I still remember when he stubbornly refused to play zone against MU during our win in Madison and allowed his guys to get beat time after time off the dribble.
Today he didn't do anything to take Cornell out of their comfort zone. No full court press, no traps, no zone. Just, here we are, this is how we play if you can beat it then go ahead.
I'm not sure the Badgers could have won anyway Cornell was really hot but they certainly didn't give them anything else to think about.
Can you really blame refs when you lose by twenty?
No system is perfect. Bo's system is very, very good. No matter how good a system is, you have to have the players. Look at Williams' results this year at UNC. Didn't have the players so it didn't work.
People who say Bo can never win a National Championship... I cannot agree with this. If he ever got the right players, look out. Chances are he will not win a title because UW-Madison doesn't recruit well enough. But if they have 2-3 perfect recruiting classes in a row they could be a true contender.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on March 21, 2010, 09:33:15 PM
People who say Bo can never win a National Championship... I cannot agree with this. If he ever got the right players, look out. Chances are he will not win a title because UW-Madison doesn't recruit well enough. But if they have 2-3 perfect recruiting classes in a row they could be a true contender.
I'm one of those that says UW will never win a national title because their system does not allow them to recruit well enough, nor do I think their system allows them to play well from behind. I always feel their system makes average players good and great players good, so they will always be good but never great. It's perfect for MU. You have a coach in Bo that isn't going anywhere, and we rarely have to compete with him for recruits. If he was landing the Diener's, Novak's, Mathew's, etc... MU wouldn't be where they are now.
Quote from: avid1010 on March 21, 2010, 09:59:42 PM
I'm one of those that says UW will never win a national title because their system does not allow them to recruit well enough, nor do I think their system allows them to play well from behind. I always feel their system makes average players good and great players good, so they will always be good but never great. It's perfect for MU. You have a coach in Bo that isn't going anywhere, and we rarely have to compete with him for recruits. If he was landing the Diener's, Novak's, Mathew's, etc... MU wouldn't be where they are now.
Boy, you are right on. Well said avid.
QuoteI always feel their system makes average players good and great players good, so they will always be good but never great.
+1
I think the most valuable thought experiment is to ask what kind of players would constitute a great recruiting class for Bo? His system since his UW extension days is predicated on essentially the same types of players he gets now. Its similar to Iowa getting Horizon players the past couple years. Bo just gets the best of the average fellas to go to Madison. Not only do the best players in the mold of slashers and swingmen and scorers not want to play in Bo's system, but the system also hides those talents in the guys he does get.
Quote from: tower912 on March 21, 2010, 06:30:48 PM
For the nth time, Bo lost today because he did not have a plan B. All he has is his system. When a team is ready for his system and beats it, he has nothing to fall back on. He can only win one way. There are no adjustments. That is why he can do well in conference, because he can go 12-6 and have a successful year. In a one-and-done format, having only one way to play will eventuallly get you beat. But at least you will get beat the right way.
Hasnt Boeheim run the same defense for 34 years? 4 final fours, 1 NC.
Hasnt Phil Jackson run the same triangle offense since he's been with the Lakers?
Every coach runs a certain "system." To say he coach doesnt make adjustment is just plain naive. He wouldnt be coaching a B10 program if he didnt adjust during timeouts or halftime. Maybe his players arent executing properly...? You would have no way of knowing unless your head is inside the timeout huddle.
Quote from: goodgreatgrand on March 21, 2010, 11:08:11 PM
Hasnt Boeheim run the same defense for 34 years? 4 final fours, 1 NC.
Hasnt Phil Jackson run the same triangle offense since he's been with the Lakers?
Every coach runs a certain "system." To say he coach doesnt make adjustment is just plain naive. He wouldnt be coaching a B10 program if he didnt adjust during timeouts or halftime. Maybe his players arent executing properly...? You would have no way of knowing unless your head is inside the timeout huddle.
I had my ears around Bo Ryan plenty of times, and his system, like any, has its positives and negatives. Everyone on this board will agree that Bo gets as much out of his players' abilities as any coach in D1. So, if that's the case, why don't more teams play his style of ball and run the swing? To try to equate the style of basketball Bo plays to a zone defense or an NBA offense is ridiculous. Bo's system is about making reads, not adjustments. If they get in a situation where they can no longer use 35 seconds of the shot clock they're in trouble.
Cornell's system looked pretty good yesterday. ::)
It is my opinion that it was not the Badgers offensive system it was their lack of being able to stop Cornell. They average giving up 54 pts, they gave up 87!!
The Badgers looked lost and were completely outhustled on every play. Dare I say it? Outcoached?
Quote from: Michaelindz on March 22, 2010, 07:35:19 AM
Cornell's system looked pretty good yesterday. ::)
It is my opinion that it was not the Badgers offensive system it was their lack of being able to stop Cornell. They average giving up 54 pts, they gave up 87!!
Yep. They scored 69 points today. When Wisconsin scores 69 points, they pretty much will win that game 95% of the time. The problem today is that they gave up 87. You can denigrate the system all you want, but when you play defense that poorly, no system is going to be able to make adjustments and come back against that.
As mentioned in another thread, Bo has successfully recruited a number top 100 players. However, he likes to fill his classes out early - he already has two verbals for 2011 and is on the short list for 6'11" Marshall Plumlee - a 4 star with the brothers who play at Duke. He doesn't seem to have a lot of interest in going balls out for the higher rated guys.
Doug Gottlieb was saying this morning that two good coaches got out coached over the weekend - Bill Self and Bo Ryan. He talked about Self's staff not having a good game plan for UNI and Bo Ryan not making adjustments to try and stop Cornell.
Cornell had the perfect game plan Vs UW. Play a pesky trap, not really designed to force a turnover but make your burn clock. This reduced the number of times uw got to run through the swing offense. After running the trap fall back to a sagging man to man or zone which eliminated the affectiveness of the swing. As has been said, UW does not have a counter to this. Furthermore, I would expect cornell to attempt a similar thing against Kentucky. Once again employing the half court trap, not to turn over Kentucky but to all but eliminate the fast break and force kentucky to diagnose the trap and get into a half court offensive game. Of course if Cornell isnt scoring this will be very difficult to accomplish. kentucky on the other hand will be much more comfortable attempting to score with 20-25 seconds to run their offense vs UW in that same situation.
Quote from: Michaelindz on March 22, 2010, 07:35:19 AM
Cornell's system looked pretty good yesterday. ::)
It is my opinion that it was not the Badgers offensive system it was their lack of being able to stop Cornell. They average giving up 54 pts, they gave up 87!!
In all fairness, Cornell was crazy efficient yesterday, averaging 1.4 points per possession.
Good analysis Blender. I think the UK game will highlight some of UW/Bo's perpetual problems. Not only will UK be more comfortable running abbreviated half court sets and taking the first available path to the basket (although they seemed to pop a lot of jumpers for a team of so-so shooters vs. Wake) but I am also skeptical as to how well that 3/4-full court trap will work on UK anyway. They have a couple of one man press breakers that UW doesn't and guys like John Wall or Bledsoe might try to get out and run with Cousins despite the pressure.
Not to say that comparing UW to UK is a perfect analysis of the different systems (considering UK's out of this world recruiting class from last year). However I think that UK's ability to recruit great athletes and then adjust on the fly will shine over UW's system that recruits mediocre athletes who, by no fault of their own, can't combine to adjust to a variety of pressure and athleticism.
Quote from: Rollout-the-Barrel on March 21, 2010, 09:25:33 PM
Can you really blame refs when you lose by twenty?
Some did, but most didn't.
I loved Steve Lavin's comments, I need to get the video. "Cornell took Bo Ryan's team to the woodshed"
The problem yesterday for the Badgers was Trevon Hughes decided he was done playing basketball in red and white... as he played in my eyes the worst game of basketball I have seen him play in quite some time.
I talked about this earlier (made a thread about it around 2 months ago) about Bo's system. It will win a lot of games, because it frustrates the hell out of most teams. What kills Bo, is two things, a team that gets hot (like Cornell) or a ridiculously athletic / skilled team (like Kentucky would have been next round)...
Yes, you could say this about every team, but it is no secret as to why Bo's Badgers make it to round 2 or sweet sixteen every year and get beat. Any time they run into an extremely skilled athletic team, they would get stomped. Washington would have beaten them, I am confident that Marquette would have beat them at the end of the year. His system is designed to work in a conference like the Big Ten, a conference in which you get 2 wins from NW, PSU, Iowa, Michigan, Indiana .. and then split with MSU, Purdue, IL, Minnesota .. and you got 12 conf wins. To get 10 wins in the Big Ten is extremely easy, because every year you get to play teams like NW and Iowa and Penn St twice. Yes the BE has cupcakes, but you aren't guarenteed two games with them. Bo also runs the refs better than any coach I have seen, and when he doesn't get his way, he blows up at them (see yesterday).
And yes, reading the Badger board, they have been blaming the refs, those posts have been deleted for the most part, but hell.. you lose by 18... can't blame the refs
And you can say that they outperform MU every year, and its close to true... however what makes me proud to be a Marquette fan, is MU has a bigger UPSIDE then Bucky. If your satisfied with maximum sweet sixteen, for sure 2nd round, then be a Badger fan... if you want more, be a Marquette fan.
Quote from: Mayor McCheese on March 22, 2010, 01:38:43 PM
The problem yesterday for the Badgers was Trevon Hughes decided he was done playing basketball in red and white... as he played in my eyes the worst game of basketball I have seen him play in quite some time.
I talked about this earlier (made a thread about it around 2 months ago) about Bo's system. It will win a lot of games, because it frustrates the hell out of most teams. What kills Bo, is two things, a team that gets hot (like Cornell) or a ridiculously athletic / skilled team (like Kentucky would have been next round)...
Yes, you could say this about every team, but it is no secret as to why Bo's Badgers make it to round 2 or sweet sixteen every year and get beat. Any time they run into an extremely skilled athletic team, they would get stomped. Washington would have beaten them, I am confident that Marquette would have beat them at the end of the year. His system is designed to work in a conference like the Big Ten, a conference in which you get 2 wins from NW, PSU, Iowa, Michigan, Indiana .. and then split with MSU, Purdue, IL, Minnesota .. and you got 12 conf wins. To get 10 wins in the Big Ten is extremely easy, because every year you get to play teams like NW and Iowa and Penn St twice. Yes the BE has cupcakes, but you aren't guarenteed two games with them. Bo also runs the refs better than any coach I have seen, and when he doesn't get his way, he blows up at them (see yesterday).
Good basketball is good basketball. If UW played in the ACC or Big Tweleve this year they still would have made the dance with a decent seed. You get a decent seed with a good basketball team..... you have a chance at the Final Four. Bo does not have the players right now. He may never have the players.
However, original point was about the system can only take him so far. The system is not the issue. If Bo and his coaches were dynamite recruiters no one would be talking about the system since they would probably would have made the Final Four by now. Look at Georgetown... not the most interesting system to sell a recuit but they get talent. Good enough to make the Final Four in 2007. I don't see why UW-Madison would be any different
if they could get the players.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on March 22, 2010, 01:51:45 PM
Good basketball is good basketball. If UW played in the ACC or Big Tweleve this year they still would have made the dance with a decent seed. You get a decent seed with a good basketball team..... you have a chance at the Final Four. Bo does not have the players right now. He may never have the players.
However, original point was about the system can only take him so far. The system is not the issue. If Bo and his coaches were dynamite recruiters no one would be talking about the system since they would probably would have made the Final Four by now. Look at Georgetown... not the most interesting system to sell a recuit but they get talent. Good enough to make the Final Four in 2007. I don't see why UW-Madison would be any different if they could get the players.
Right...and the idea that "the system" prevents Bo from getting the players is a false one. He doesn't get the players because he doesn't really like recruiting all that much.
I like how the JS Online blog has about 400 different posts and a TON of them are calling for Bo's head...
Quote from: MarquetteDano on March 22, 2010, 01:51:45 PM
Good basketball is good basketball. If UW played in the ACC or Big Tweleve this year they still would have made the dance with a decent seed. You get a decent seed with a good basketball team..... you have a chance at the Final Four. Bo does not have the players right now. He may never have the players.
However, original point was about the system can only take him so far. The system is not the issue. If Bo and his coaches were dynamite recruiters no one would be talking about the system since they would probably would have made the Final Four by now. Look at Georgetown... not the most interesting system to sell a recuit but they get talent. Good enough to make the Final Four in 2007. I don't see why UW-Madison would be any different if they could get the players.
Also located in DC. Not Madison, WI with a bunch of homers from Antigo.
/I'm from Wisconsin, just speaking tongue-in-cheek
LOL....to the woodshed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dyuYom2wbg
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 22, 2010, 01:57:35 PM
Right...and the idea that "the system" prevents Bo from getting the players is a false one. He doesn't get the players because he doesn't really like recruiting all that much.
The thought that he could get good players if he wanted to is a joke. Is it too hard to recruit Vander, Novak, Diener, Mathews, etc... He can't even get the top talent in the state to play for him. The system totally prevent Bo from getting players, and Vander clearly made that comment when deciding to go with MU.
Quote from: avid1010 on March 22, 2010, 05:23:02 PM
The thought that he could get good players if he wanted to is a joke. Is it too hard to recruit Vander, Novak, Diener, Mathews, etc... He can't even get the top talent in the state to play for him. The system totally prevent Bo from getting players, and Vander clearly made that comment when deciding to go with MU.
I don't know if I buy he just doesn't want to recruit... sounds like classic UW propaganda. Bo cooled on recruiting! He isn't that good of a recruiter. He may not like it... people often don't like things they don't excel at.
I still say you cannot blame the "system" however. Georgetown's system is not flashy but they get big time recruits. I think UW could as well... they just don't have big time recruiters anywhere on their bench.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 22, 2010, 02:00:48 PM
LOL....to the woodshed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dyuYom2wbg
and lavin loves the badgers.
Quote from: avid1010 on March 22, 2010, 05:23:02 PM
The thought that he could get good players if he wanted to is a joke. Is it too hard to recruit Vander, Novak, Diener, Mathews, etc... He can't even get the top talent in the state to play for him. The system totally prevent Bo from getting players, and Vander clearly made that comment when deciding to go with MU.
1. He has gotten top Wisconsin talent...Marcus Landry, Keaton Nankivil, Tim Jarmuz and Evan Anderson come to mind. (Ryan wasn't at UW when Diener chose MU BTW.)
2. Vander doesn't have the come to Jesus meeting with UW's academic staff, he might still be wearing red and white next year.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 22, 2010, 08:24:04 PM
Marcus Landry, Keaton Nankivil, Tim Jarmuz and Evan Anderson come to mind. (Ryan wasn't at UW when Diener chose MU BTW.)
Thanks for proving my point for me.
I had thought Diener could have been part of Bo's first class, was it a year before Bo arrived? Either way it would be unfair to hold that against him.
I just can't believe anyone is going to go with the belief that Bo could recruit better players if he simply wanted to. Not to mention the importance that assistant coaches play in that process. I don't know many assistants that believe they can move up the coaching ladder without being a strong recruiter. Like I said, if you really believe Bo could recruit top notch players if he chose to do so, or if you believe he does, we're wasting our time debating it because I simply believe he does not and is not able to.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 22, 2010, 08:24:04 PM
1. He has gotten top Wisconsin talent...Marcus Landry, Keaton Nankivil, Tim Jarmuz and Evan Anderson come to mind. (Ryan wasn't at UW when Diener chose MU BTW.)
2. Vander doesn't have the come to Jesus meeting with UW's academic staff, he might still be wearing red and white next year.
C'mon Sultan... you are a knowledgable poster... getting the top Wisconsin talent isn't enough to win a National Championship. Tell me you don't believe either of the following two statements:
- If Ryan put his mind to it, he would have a Top 10 recruiting class
- Ryan would have a Top 10 recruiting class if it wasn't for the Harvard-like academic requirements for athletes
The reality is that Ryan isn't a very good recruiter. And I don't blame the "system" on that
Quote from: goodgreatgrand on March 21, 2010, 11:08:11 PM
Hasnt Boeheim run the same defense for 34 years? 4 final fours, 1 NC.
Hasnt Phil Jackson run the same triangle offense since he's been with the Lakers?
Every coach runs a certain "system." To say he coach doesnt make adjustment is just plain naive. He wouldnt be coaching a B10 program if he didnt adjust during timeouts or halftime. Maybe his players arent executing properly...? You would have no way of knowing unless your head is inside the timeout huddle.
Did you go to the GT games this weekend. I don't think Paul Hewitt runs a system. Gottlieb should have talked about the weaknesses of coaches who run no system.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on March 22, 2010, 10:05:32 PM
C'mon Sultan... you are a knowledgable poster... getting the top Wisconsin talent isn't enough to win a National Championship.
I know that. I was just refuting avid's point that he doesn't get top Wisconsin talent.
Quote from: avid1010 on March 22, 2010, 09:17:36 PM
Thanks for proving my point for me.
I had thought Diener could have been part of Bo's first class, was it a year before Bo arrived? Either way it would be unfair to hold that against him.
I just can't believe anyone is going to go with the belief that Bo could recruit better players if he simply wanted to. Not to mention the importance that assistant coaches play in that process. I don't know many assistants that believe they can move up the coaching ladder without being a strong recruiter. Like I said, if you really believe Bo could recruit top notch players if he chose to do so, or if you believe he does, we're wasting our time debating it because I simply believe he does not and is not able to.
OK...I don't mean to say that if he put his mind to it, he could do it better. I'm not sure he *could* do it better even if he wanted to. But his recruiting classes are generally filled early (he already has two 2011 verbal commits) which leads me to believe that he would rather settle for a 3 star early than work to get the 4 and 5 stars. Regardless, I don't think it is "the system" that holds him back.
And I'm sorry, but those four players that I named were all recruited by MU...with the possible exception of Jarmuz. We went head-to-head with Bo and we lost.
Diener was part of the same HS class as Devin Harris. I know that Bo "inherited" Harris from Bennett.
Quote from: mu77vegas on March 22, 2010, 08:02:38 AM
Doug Gottlieb was saying this morning that two good coaches got out coached over the weekend - Bill Self and Bo Ryan. He talked about Self's staff not having a good game plan for UNI and Bo Ryan not making adjustments to try and stop Cornell.
Here is Gottlieb's direct quote:
"I was dumbfounded by Bo Ryan's attack," Gottlieb continued. "They just basically sat back and tried to play man-to-man defense against Cornell, which had equal, and in this case, better personnel. They shot the hell out of the basketball. It was a clinic. You either had to press or trap or pick up (earlier). Do something other (than man-to-man).
"To me, when you get ready to play a team like Cornell with this great record - they were better than a 12 seed, the 12 seed was kind of a crime - wouldn't you call teams that have beaten them and say, how did you beat them?" Gottlieb said. "Because they lost to Seton Hall. Seton Hall pressed them. They lost to Penn. Penn ran a 1-3-1 the entire game.
"I understand Wisconsin said this is who we are and this is what we do. You had a limited time to prepare for it because you don't know - are you going to play Temple, are you going to play Cornell. They had to worry about Wofford, and Mike Young's team nearly beat them. They were lucky to survive Wofford. But I cannot believe that they never really changed how they were defending Cornell, and Cornell made 16 of 19 shots inside the paint."
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 23, 2010, 08:12:09 AM
OK...I don't mean to say that if he put his mind to it, he could do it better. I'm not sure he *could* do it better even if he wanted to. But his recruiting classes are generally filled early (he already has two 2011 verbal commits) which leads me to believe that he would rather settle for a 3 star early than work to get the 4 and 5 stars. Regardless, I don't think it is "the system" that holds him back.
And I'm sorry, but those four players that I named were all recruited by MU...with the possible exception of Jarmuz. We went head-to-head with Bo and we lost.
Diener was part of the same HS class as Devin Harris. I know that Bo "inherited" Harris from Bennett.
The reason why MU loses recruits to Wisconsin is because at a young age many kids in this state are given teh impression that Wisconsin is the holy land, and that to make it big in life (whether through athletics or academics) you need to go to Wisconsin-Madison. Thats why I am proud of the school I teach at, which has in the last two years sent kids playing sports to MU (one in volleyball, one in Track), its a good place to be where Marquette is a highly regarded destination
Bo can recruit... lets face it, he won 4 national championships with UW-Platteville. Being an alum of the school, it is quite amazing, because there isn't much to sell out there, especially in the 90's. Not much to do, no girls (although recently this has changed, being a recent alum, I can attest to this), etc. Bo can recruit, but in a system in which almost asks of you for 4 years (not many UW kids leave early), he also has many red shirts, kids don't want to do that, they also don't want to play grind it out basketball.
Even in interviews, Trevon Hughes has talked about how his freshman year it was very difficult to get used to, and the reason why he sat a ton his frosh year.
I also think and believe that Bo is pressured by alums and boosters to recruit in house (WI) players. For some odd reason Wisconsin loves Wisconsin born talent, regardless of if there is greener pastures (which there are)
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 23, 2010, 08:04:06 AM
I know that. I was just refuting avid's point that he doesn't get top Wisconsin talent.
He doesn't...look at the players that MU has gotten from within the state compared to Bo. I'll take MU's any day. So either MU is getting better players, is better at developing player, both, etc.
I don't get into the recruiting stuff too much, but I'd be very interested to know how hard we recruited the kids you mentioned, and I can't believe we ever looked twice at a player like Jarmuz.
Quote from: avid1010 on March 23, 2010, 11:45:08 AM
He doesn't...look at the players that MU has gotten from within the state compared to Bo. I'll take MU's any day. So either MU is getting better players, is better at developing player, both, etc.
Top state players recruited in the Bo Ryan era (and I had forgotten some in a previous post):
MU: Novak, Matthews, Blue
UW: Butch, Steimsma, Landry, Hughes, Nankivil, Jarmuz, Anderson, Gasser, and a number of others.
My recollection is we went hard after Butch, Steimsma, Landry, Hughes and Anderson. UW went hard after Novak, Matthews and Blue.
To me, it's pretty much a toss up. We probably don't go after them as hard, especially with the early verbals like Steimsma and Anderson gave. However, you have a McDs All American and another NBAish player in Landry.
It's just silly to say that Bo can't recruit Wisconsin.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 23, 2010, 11:57:09 AM
Top state players recruited in the Bo Ryan era (and I had forgotten some in a previous post):
MU: Novak, Matthews, Blue
UW: Butch, Steimsma, Landry, Hughes, Nankivil, Jarmuz, Anderson, Gasser, and a number of others.
My recollection is we went hard after Butch, Steimsma, Landry, Hughes and Anderson. UW went hard after Novak, Matthews and Blue.
To me, it's pretty much a toss up. We probably don't go after them as hard, especially with the early verbals like Steimsma and Anderson gave. However, you have a McDs All American and another NBAish player in Landry.
It's just silly to say that Bo can't recruit Wisconsin.
Throw in Maymon for MU... although he isn't with us anymore
Some of those players that you put with UW are questionable "top" recruits... Jarmuz... Gasser... even Anderson isn't very impressive
Quote from: Mayor McCheese on March 23, 2010, 12:27:51 PM
Throw in Maymon for MU... although he isn't with us anymore
Some of those players that you put with UW are questionable "top" recruits... Jarmuz... Gasser... even Anderson isn't very impressive
Yeah...I forgot about Maymon! :D
I will defend Anderson because both programs were interested. The other two are fine to leave out. But essentially if you look at the top 3 that each program wanted, and only one got, it is essentially a toss up (Matthews, Novak, Blue) v. (Butch, Landry, Steimsma)
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 23, 2010, 12:56:00 PM
Yeah...I forgot about Maymon! :D
I will defend Anderson because both programs were interested. The other two are fine to leave out. But essentially if you look at the top 3 that each program wanted, and only one got, it is essentially a toss up (Matthews, Novak, Blue) v. (Butch, Landry, Steimsma)
Yes... but is landing Steimsma and Butch really Bo recruiting.. or more of "I live in a Wisconsin city where the WHOLE TOWN wants me to go to Wisconsin so I have no other choice".. lots of times players here in Wisconsin are pressured to go to Wisconsin for athletics because.. It's Wisconsin, It's Wisconsin and really, they don't have another choice
Quote from: Mayor McCheese on March 23, 2010, 01:39:51 PM
Yes... but is landing Steimsma and Butch really Bo recruiting.. or more of "I live in a Wisconsin city where the WHOLE TOWN wants me to go to Wisconsin so I have no other choice".. lots of times players here in Wisconsin are pressured to go to Wisconsin for athletics because.. It's Wisconsin, It's Wisconsin and really, they don't have another choice
What? How many conditions are you going to put on the argument?
First, I'm told that Bo can't recruit Wisconsin....but then I list a bunch of players that shows that he can. Second, I'm told that MU gets better players...but then I show that this isn't really the case. And now finally, I'm told that it has nothing to do with Bo...it's because poor little Greg Steimsma would never be able to show his face in Randolph again if he chose MU over UW.
Seriously, it would be nice if people would just admit they were wrong once in awhile.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 23, 2010, 02:12:32 PM
What? How many conditions are you going to put on the argument?
First, I'm told that Bo can't recruit Wisconsin....but then I list a bunch of players that shows that he can. Second, I'm told that MU gets better players...but then I show that this isn't really the case. And now finally, I'm told that it has nothing to do with Bo...it's because poor little Greg Steimsma would never be able to show his face in Randolph again if he chose MU over UW.
Seriously, it would be nice if people would just admit they were wrong once in awhile.
You've mentioned that you lived in Madison before, but in the smaller towns in Wisconsin this does happen.
I don't have a horse in this race, just sayin'
Quote from: LancesOtherNut on March 23, 2010, 02:21:09 PM
You've mentioned that you lived in Madison before, but in the smaller towns in Wisconsin this does happen.
I have never heard about this happening once....not once. In fact, my experience is that if the small town kid choses a different school, the town is more apt to adopt that school as the one they follow rather than shunning the kid.
That's what happened in Wausaukee with Anthony Pieper. People on this board have told me that when Al recruited a kid from up north somewhere (Merril? Antigo?) that the same thing happened.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 23, 2010, 02:32:00 PM
I have never heard about this happening once....not once. In fact, my experience is that if the small town kid choses a different school, the town is more apt to adopt that school as the one they follow rather than shunning the kid.
That's what happened in Wausaukee with Anthony Pieper. People on this board have told me that when Al recruited a kid from up north somewhere (Merril? Antigo?) that the same thing happened.
That could be the case for those that play ball. For those that just go to MU over UW, the backlash is surprising, to say the least.
Quote from: LancesOtherNut on March 23, 2010, 02:35:24 PM
That could be the case for those that play ball. For those that just go to MU over UW, the backlash is surprising, to say the least.
First, I do not believe that this happens on even an occasional basis. Second, since we are talking about kids that "play ball," it is irrelevant to the discussion anyway.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 23, 2010, 02:40:53 PM
First, I do not believe that this happens on even an occasional basis. Second, since we are talking about kids that "play ball," it is irrelevant to the discussion anyway.
That's fine. I'm not trying to convince you of anything.
I'm convinced you didn't grow up in WI, though. Or if you did, it certainly wasn't in a place as small as Merrill or Antigo.
EDIT: I'm not saying the community openly shuns them. It's more subtle than that. But it's there.
Quote from: LancesOtherNut on March 23, 2010, 02:50:46 PM
That's fine. I'm not trying to convince you of anything.
I'm convinced you didn't grow up in WI, though. Or if you did, it certainly wasn't in a place as small as Merrill or Antigo.
I grew up in Madison. However, I have family all over the state...big cities and small towns...a couple of which went to MU. I have not heard of one instance of any sort of backlash against them. I know growing up in Madison, I got a lot of "why Marquette???" comments, but that's about it.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 23, 2010, 02:58:16 PM
I grew up in Madison. However, I have family all over the state...big cities and small towns...a couple of which went to MU. I have not heard of one instance of any sort of backlash against them. I know growing up in Madison, I got a lot of "why Marquette???" comments, but that's about it.
Fair enough.
I've got nothing more on this, as I've already went further than my original post intended.
I have to agree with Lance on this, and it's kind of absurd to think otherwise. There's always pressure on local top athletes to go to the big State U. In a state like WI with only one big state school, there's even more pressure on them, especially if they're from outside the Milwaukee area, and especially since UW remembered they have a basketball program a little over 10 years ago. I remember reading stories about Butch saying random people would come up and tell him he should go to Wisconsin. I know Diener got a lot of crap, but he was a different breed since he was heckled his entire HS career because of the redshirting issue. UW didn't even want Maymon, and look at the reception he got when he played at the Kohl Center this year.
Quote from: Litehouse on March 23, 2010, 03:27:59 PM
I have to agree with Lance on this, and it's kind of absurd to think otherwise. There's always pressure on local top athletes to go to the big State U. In a state like WI with only one big state school, there's even more pressure on them, especially if they're from outside the Milwaukee area, and especially since UW remembered they have a basketball program a little over 10 years ago. I remember reading stories about Butch saying random people would come up and tell him he should go to Wisconsin. I know Diener got a lot of crap, but he was a different breed since he was heckled his entire HS career because of the redshirting issue. UW didn't even want Maymon, and look at the reception he got when he played at the Kohl Center this year.
And Appleton is a bustling metropolis compared to Randolph.
Read the comments under the Diener stories a couple weeks ago in the JS online, people are still pissed at him.
EDIT: Made an incoherent reference, deleted
Quote from: Litehouse on March 23, 2010, 03:27:59 PM
I have to agree with Lance on this, and it's kind of absurd to think otherwise. There's always pressure on local top athletes to go to the big State U. In a state like WI with only one big state school, there's even more pressure on them, especially if they're from outside the Milwaukee area, and especially since UW remembered they have a basketball program a little over 10 years ago. I remember reading stories about Butch saying random people would come up and tell him he should go to Wisconsin. I know Diener got a lot of crap, but he was a different breed since he was heckled his entire HS career because of the redshirting issue. UW didn't even want Maymon, and look at the reception he got when he played at the Kohl Center this year.
I remember going to the Kohl Center for Marquette v Wisconsin when the trio were freshman.
Wesley Matthews reception wasn't very kind, as I had 50-70 year old alums around me shouting "f-----g traitor!" ... they also started yelling at me because I applauded when he was announced. An old lady turned around and said "why would you applaud a player who turned his back on his state"
People believe that all good players from WI should go to Bucky.
the best part about this whole culture of the state going gaga over Bucky is how disparate the views and lifestyles are at UW-Madison (Berkeley of the East) compared to the rest of pink state WI. I don't bring this up to be political, but merely to point out that I think a lot of folks in the northern half of WI really would be shocked if they went to Madison and saw a drum circle on every other street corner. The folks in the post above me at the Kohl Center obviously were in Madison, so they might not be the greatest example. But I can tell you that in NEW, kids going off to Bucky, and coming back radically liberal to parents' shaking heads is a regular occurrence.
It's kind of funny that the beliefs of (most?) people in WI are more congruent with the mission and beliefs of MU than UW, yet when you go to MU, you are a traitor.
Quote from: MUBurrow on March 24, 2010, 08:15:27 AM
the best part about this whole culture of the state going gaga over Bucky is how disparate the views and lifestyles are at UW-Madison (Berkeley of the East) compared to the rest of pink state WI. I don't bring this up to be political, but merely to point out that I think a lot of folks in the northern half of WI really would be shocked if they went to Madison and saw a drum circle on every other street corner. The folks in the post above me at the Kohl Center obviously were in Madison, so they might not be the greatest example. But I can tell you that in NEW, kids going off to Bucky, and coming back radically liberal to parents' shaking heads is a regular occurrence.
It's kind of funny that the beliefs of (most?) people in WI are more congruent with the mission and beliefs of MU than UW, yet when you go to MU, you are a traitor.
Well... Wisconsin has been a democrat state for some time, so no, most of the peoples beliefs in WI aren't unlike those found in Madison... possibly not that radical however.
maybe I was overstating the position a bit - the election that stuck in my mind was Bush-Gore when MKE and Dane counties essentially carried the state, even though a majority of counties went red. but the more important point is that there is a general belief in much of (especially northern WI) that Madison really is ____ sq. miles surrounded by reality. there are TONS of guys walking around in Bucky gear while complaining about the hippies in Madison, the liberals in Madison, etc etc. yet when recruits go to MU, they are traitors. just an observation on the dissonance that exists in a lot of the state over the pride for Bucky contrasting with the general outlook toward the rest of the school, students, culture, etc.
Quote from: MUBurrow on March 24, 2010, 08:37:46 AM
maybe I was overstating the position a bit - the election that stuck in my mind was Bush-Gore when MKE and Dane counties essentially carried the state, even though a majority of counties went red. but the more important point is that there is a general belief in much of (especially northern WI) that Madison really is ____ sq. miles surrounded by reality. there are TONS of guys walking around in Bucky gear while complaining about the hippies in Madison, the liberals in Madison, etc etc. yet when recruits go to MU, they are traitors. just an observation on the dissonance that exists in a lot of the state over the pride for Bucky contrasting with the general outlook toward the rest of the school, students, culture, etc.
You clearly do not know outstate Wisconsin very well.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/president/33703659.html
Northern Wisconsin is about as much of a "swing" area as any. Hell, it has elected Dave Obey to Congress regularly. It is hardly Republican...nor would I really call it conservative. Waukesha and Ozaukee Counties are by far the most "red" counties in the state.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on March 22, 2010, 01:51:45 PM
Good basketball is good basketball. If UW played in the ACC or Big Tweleve this year they still would have made the dance with a decent seed. You get a decent seed with a good basketball team..... you have a chance at the Final Four. Bo does not have the players right now. He may never have the players.
However, original point was about the system can only take him so far. The system is not the issue. If Bo and his coaches were dynamite recruiters no one would be talking about the system since they would probably would have made the Final Four by now. Look at Georgetown... not the most interesting system to sell a recuit but they get talent. Good enough to make the Final Four in 2007. I don't see why UW-Madison would be any different if they could get the players.
Agree with everything but they have 0% chance of ever winning a title. It just won't go to a team who can't kick it into high gear when some team starts running and puts up 40 in a half. It will happen at some point and they can't handle it. I think they are a team that runs a grind it out offence in today's nfl (like the bears).
And your point about the recruits is true. But there are many people who question if going to wisconsin will help a player reach the NBA, those questions are in large part due to the system. GT has produced Hilbert, that guy on the thunder and soon to have a top 10 pick in monroe. So those questions don't exist.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 24, 2010, 11:40:19 AM
Northern Wisconsin is about as much of a "swing" area as any. Hell, it has elected Dave Obey to Congress regularly. It is hardly Republican...nor would I really call it conservative. Waukesha and Ozaukee Counties are by far the most "red" counties in the state.
The point is still valid...
I'm from Washington county, which is one of the most conservative counties in the nation, and I get the MU-stare everywhere I go. "Why didn't you go to Madison?" is a question I receive quite often.
Quote from: shiloh26 on March 24, 2010, 01:53:30 PM
The point is still valid...
I'm from Washington county, which is one of the most conservative counties in the nation, and I get the MU-stare everywhere I go. "Why didn't you go to Madison?" is a question I receive quite often.
Combine that with telling them how you weren't wait-listed at Madison and then watch their head explode.
Quote from: shiloh26 on March 24, 2010, 01:53:30 PM
The point is still valid...
I'm from Washington county, which is one of the most conservative counties in the nation, and I get the MU-stare everywhere I go. "Why didn't you go to Madison?" is a question I receive quite often.
That is far from the "Marquette hatred" that everyone says that they have experienced and is prevalent throughout the state.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 24, 2010, 02:01:52 PM
That is far from the "Marquette hatred" that everyone says that they have experienced and is prevalent throughout the state.
True, but I think the person you were responding to wasn't really saying "MU hatred" so much as "bucky-blowing."
I agree that its more MU indifference combined with UW love than it is just MU hate. It still pisses me off to no end.
Quote from: LancesOtherNut on March 24, 2010, 01:58:20 PM
Combine that with telling them how you weren't wait-listed at Madison and then watch their head explode.
Wait, so you could have gone to UW and you didn't?! :o
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 24, 2010, 02:01:52 PM
That is far from the "Marquette hatred" that everyone says that they have experienced and is prevalent throughout the state.
You clearly seem to have a different set of standards for anti-MU reactions. If I tell someone I went to MU and they say "why didn't you go to Madison?", that bugs me and I find it anti-MU that people can't conceive that anyone would choose to go to MU over UW.
Quote from: shiloh26 on March 24, 2010, 02:08:11 PM
Wait, so you could have gone to UW and you didn't?! :o
A girl I graduated High School with was wait-listed and then denied from UW while being accepted at Michigan, Emory, and another great school I can't recall. She however went through 3-4 appeals and ended up getting accepted in June. I remember being chastised by a teacher cause I happened to question why she didnt just attend one of the other great schools and transfer to UW if she wished. The response was along the lines of "But its Wisconsin! An amazing university and the flagship school of our home state!" I wish I was exaggerating or kidding...but sadly I am not.
Quote from: Litehouse on March 24, 2010, 02:12:45 PM
You clearly seem to have a different set of standards for anti-MU reactions. If I tell someone I went to MU and they say "why didn't you go to Madison?", that bugs me and I find it anti-MU that people can't conceive that anyone would choose to go to MU over UW.
Yes. I clearly am not nearly as sensitive as other are on here.