Buzz or TC?
If you asked me before the season I would said Crean in a heartbeat, but not I'm not so sure. While MU's future looks bright, another year of blowouts at IU and the faithful will be screaming.
this requires a poll for scientific analysis
Quote from: ecompt on February 26, 2010, 10:08:42 AM
Buzz or TC?
If you asked me before the season I would said Crean in a heartbeat, but not I'm not so sure. While MU's future looks bright, another year of blowouts at IU and the faithful will be screaming.
Who are these "IU Faithfuls" you speak of? All I've seen since 2000 is a bunch of bandwagon jumpers.
Buzz will stay as long as MU will have him. Buzz has said on numerous occasions that as long as he is not kicked out, he is staying at MU. Now, one could argue that he's just saying that because that is what the fans/administration wants to hear and there is no upside in saying anything differently but I would argue that that is not his style. I think, at this time, he truly believes that.
Things change and who knows what the future will bring, but the gig he has now suits him perfectly for the following reasons:
-- Resources. MU provides lots of resources, whether it be chartered jets, top notch facilities
-- High Profile Program. He is building on a pretty high base in the best conference.
-- Pay. MU will pay him what he is worth.
-- Faith. This is not to be underestmated. Buzz seems pretty devout (even though he isn't catholic). I would say that the Christian aspect to the school appeals to him alot and allows him to be unrestrained in an important part of his life.
-- Intangibles The University mission which preaches service and excellence meshes well with his team first coaching philosophy. He is also given the freedom to pursue projects like Buzz's Bunch.
One thing to think about is Buzz's approach to the program and his ego. When it came time to do the coach's television show he refused the name of "The Buzz Williams Show" but instead named it "The Marquette Basketball Hour with Buzz Williams."
I just don't see him getting fired anytime soon. I also don't see him leaving for greener pastures anytime soon either. I do think that if his success continues he will get offers but I do not see ANY program right now as being greener for him. (however, I am not privy to his unspoken inner thoughts.)
Regarding the old coach, I don't know and really don't care.
Well said downtown85.
Quote from: downtown85 on February 26, 2010, 10:37:48 AM
Buzz will stay as long as MU will have him. Buzz has said on numerous occasions that as long as he is not kicked out, he is staying at MU. Now, one could argue that he's just saying that because that is what the fans/administration wants to hear and there is no upside in saying anything differently but I would argue that that is not his style. I think, at this time, he truly believes that.
Things change and who knows what the future will bring, but the gig he has now suits him perfectly for the following reasons:
-- Resources. MU provides lots of resources, whether it be chartered jets, top notch facilities
-- High Profile Program. He is building on a pretty high base in the best conference.
-- Pay. MU will pay him what he is worth.
-- Faith. This is not to be underestmated. Buzz seems pretty devout (even though he isn't catholic). I would say that the Christian aspect to the school appeals to him alot and allows him to be unrestrained in an important part of his life.
-- Intangibles The University mission which preaches service and excellence meshes well with his team first coaching philosophy. He is also given the freedom to pursue projects like Buzz's Bunch.
One thing to think about is Buzz's approach to the program and his ego. When it came time to do the coach's television show he refused the name of "The Buzz Williams Show" but instead named it "The Marquette Basketball Hour with Buzz Williams."
I just don't see him getting fired anytime soon. I also don't see him leaving for greener pastures anytime soon either. I do think that if his success continues he will get offers but I do not see ANY program right now as being greener for him. (however, I am not privy to his unspoken inner thoughts.)
Regarding the old coach, I don't know and really don't care.
I hope we are not naive about Buzz's dedication to MU. I'm sure he is dedicated to MU. If he hasn't gotten alot of attention before, he doesn't understand the allure. If he gets a big offer, it could change him. Hope not.
If Crean eventually gets the boot at IU, then Buzz will have direct examples of the two biggest name coaches he has worked with (Crean and Gillespie) jumping for the high profile job and flaming out badly. That has to influence him that staying in a long-term stable job at Marquette might be a good idea.
the potential for failure is part of what makes those jobs so intriguing to coaches. high risk, high reward. i think that although Buzz may sincerely believe he'll stay as long as we'll have him, that doesn't mean its a till death do us part matrimony. things happen, and if Buzz has enough success to draw bigger programs, we'll have to hold our breath just like we would with any other coach.
Quote from: Litehouse on February 26, 2010, 11:02:02 AM
If Crean eventually gets the boot at IU, then Buzz will have direct examples of the two biggest name coaches he has worked with (Crean and Gillespie) jumping for the high profile job and flaming out badly. That has to influence him that staying in a long-term stable job at Marquette might be a good idea.
Now this is a GREAT point!
i for one, can't wait till buzz gets his name mentioned for a "bigger" job. i want to see how he handles it. my thoughts and hopes going off of how he has handled everything to this point, would be that he right away comes out and shoots it down. nothing pissed me off more about crean (and i was a crean supporter) than how he used to drag out the drama once his name got mentioned. then crean would say something like "i knew all along i wasn't going to leave." then why not say it right away you drama queen?
plus, the first mention of buzz to a job opening means that Marquette legitimately did find a diamond in the rough.
downtown nailed it; Buzz could be just saying he'll stay as long as MU will have him, but that just seems to be so far afield from the character he presents it's hard to believe he's not being truthful.
Quote from: Litehouse on February 26, 2010, 11:02:02 AM
If Crean eventually gets the boot at IU, then Buzz will have direct examples of the two biggest name coaches he has worked with (Crean and Gillespie) jumping for the high profile job and flaming out badly. That has to influence him that staying in a long-term stable job at Marquette might be a good idea.
Very good point I didn't even think about. Now an even better reason to root for Crean to flame out badly and embarrassingly.
I would absolutley LOVE to see Marquette play Indiana next year. All of Tom Crean's players would be gone (Lazar, Acker, Cubey). It would be just Buzz's players vs. Crean's players. Marquette blowing out Indiana would just be awesome to see. We would win with a no name coach with a school with far less prestige and recruting tools. Wow... that would be a great feeling.
I'll take Buzz at his word until proven otherwise. He has repeatedly made a stronger statement on this issue than either Crean or O'Neill ever did. You're right. A key test is how he deals with it when his name is floated by Dickie V or the ESPN (tic) experts. If Buzz makes a Sherman like statement it reaffirms what he has said all along. As a former broadcaster there comes a time when I said enough with moving around. I put down roots and made a pretty good life. I wonder if some coaches do the same thing? Many times the brass ring is fools gold.
It all comes down to the 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes. It's really that simple. When IU had Creek earlier this year, they were beating teams like Pittsburgh, Creek was throwing up 31 on Kentucky, etc.
When he blew his knee out, it was all over. Totally different team. The 2011 and 2012 Indiana state talent is absolutely loaded. They will have to land a few of those kids. If they do, they'll be fine. If they don't, he'll be gone.
As for Buzz, he has a different scenario...he's going to have to prove he can do it without Crean's players over the next few years. If he does, then he'll be here for the long haul (hopefully, I'm sick of MU coaches leaving after 5 years). If he doesn't, then he'll be gone, too.
Very well done downtown85.
I would also add on to your reasons for to to stay. Going along with your resource mention, Marquette has no football making baksetball the number one priority for the athletic department.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 26, 2010, 11:39:48 AM
It all comes down to the 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes. It's really that simple. When IU had Creek earlier this year, they were beating teams like Pittsburgh, Creek was throwing up 31 on Kentucky, etc.
When he blew his knee out, it was all over. Totally different team. The 2011 and 2012 Indiana state talent is absolutely loaded. They will have to land a few of those kids. If they do, they'll be fine. If they don't, he'll be gone.
As for Buzz, he has a different scenario...he's going to have to prove he can do it without Crean's players over the next few years. If he does, then he'll be here for the long haul (hopefully, I'm sick of MU coaches leaving after 5 years). If he doesn't, then he'll be gone, too.
Let's get real for a minute - the only player of real value MU will lose from Tom Crean is Lazar. Mo and Cooby have done great for MU this year, and with Buzz's coaching have maximized their talent for sure - but losing these Cooby and MO and replacing them with more prototypical guards shouldn't be too tough. I'd have to believe that out of Vander, Reggie, Newbill or Cadougan - we shouldn't have much of a drop off from Mo and Cooby - even in these players freshman years.
I don't take coaches at their word especially regarding their feelings toward their job.
Way too many college coaches say the right things till the shiny offer comes along.
I've been a Buzz supporter since April 1, 2008 but nobody knows the true character of Buzz regarding job ambition or his motivations except probably those closest to him.
Don't forget this isn't Buzz's first head coaching job. He was at New Orleans. Hence, he probably realizes the great situation he has at Marquette.
I think Chicos is right and TC has Indiana headed in the right direction. I think he will get some of that Indiana talent and due to the School reputation he'll do OK in recruiting. They'll be much more competitive next year. The problem for TC at IU will be each point he reaches will then be considered the minimum acceptable next year. Unless IU has been humbled by this whole coaching mess they've been through they will soon expect to compete for the Big 10 title and deep tournament runs. You have to be a top 1% coach to hold to those expectations and while I don't think TC is a bad coach I'm not sure he is an elite coach either.
I think the MU fans are much more forgiving. If Buzz is competitive in the BE and goes to the tournament 3/4 of the time provided he doesn't lose every first round game he will be able to stay as long as he wants. I also don't think Buzz will be revered as a coaching genius to the point where a truly elite program will come after him. And as a BE coach I would think it would have to be an elite program. Texas is the one that jumps out at me but Barnes seems to be happy there and he is pretty young.
Recruits are going to quit caring about the storied program that is Indiana.
Indiana hasn't been consistantly good since the late 80's/early 90's. Why would a recuit give a damn about how good a program was 20 years ago before he was even born?
Quote from: Ners on February 26, 2010, 12:02:27 PM
Let's get real for a minute - the only player of real value MU will lose from Tom Crean is Lazar. Mo and Cooby have done great for MU this year, and with Buzz's coaching have maximized their talent for sure - but losing these Cooby and MO and replacing them with more prototypical guards shouldn't be too tough. I'd have to believe that out of Vander, Reggie, Newbill or Cadougan - we shouldn't have much of a drop off from Mo and Cooby - even in these players freshman years.
From a talent perspective, you are correct. From a leadership perspective, I think you're selling short the value of seniors at the guard position. There's a reason why we have so few turnovers...senior guards. Lazar will be brutally tough to replace.
If Buzz leaves for a high profile gig then we went far in the NCAA's so its a worthwhile trade, IMO.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on February 26, 2010, 12:22:11 PM
Recruits are going to quit caring about the storied program that is Indiana.
Indiana hasn't been consistantly good since the late 80's/early 90's. Why would a recuit give a damn about how good a program was 20 years ago before he was even born?
That's what kids used to say about Marquette, too. Until someone like TC came and changed that. That's the same thing they are looking for him to do at IU.
Quote from: TallTitan34 on February 26, 2010, 12:22:11 PM
Recruits are going to quit caring about the storied program that is Indiana.
Indiana hasn't been consistantly good since the late 80's/early 90's. Why would a recuit give a damn about how good a program was 20 years ago before he was even born?
And they obviously don't give a crap about guaranteed playing time at a Big Ten school, at least this specific Big Ten school.
In any case, Crean's not going anywhere for several years. Indiana gave him an immediate extension when they realized how bad it actually was, and they're not going to eat 6 or 7 years of his contract, not to mention firing him after not being able to dig out of that hole in 3 years is going to make everyone not want to go anywhere near that job.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 26, 2010, 11:39:48 AM
It all comes down to the 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes. It's really that simple. When IU had Creek earlier this year, they were beating teams like Pittsburgh, Creek was throwing up 31 on Kentucky, etc.
When he blew his knee out, it was all over. Totally different team. The 2011 and 2012 Indiana state talent is absolutely loaded. They will have to land a few of those kids. If they do, they'll be fine. If they don't, he'll be gone.
As for Buzz, he has a different scenario...he's going to have to prove he can do it without Crean's players over the next few years. If he does, then he'll be here for the long haul (hopefully, I'm sick of MU coaches leaving after 5 years). If he doesn't, then he'll be gone, too.
Hmm... Can't we say that 80% of the coaching jobs come down the the 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes? And what happen to the 2010 class... ya know, the players that might make an impact next season? I will agree that there are no guarantees. If Crean can get into some sort of Bubble talk (like Northwestern this season), then his job will be saved for another couple of seasons. And about Creek, that's fantastic that he is good but they still lost a bunch of games with the kid on the lineup. Personally, I think Crean is in trouble because a bunch of Big Ten teams' stocks are on the rise. Is Indiana's stock on the rise? Maybe marginally because they are so bad but if a major factor in their success next season is based on a kid that just blew out his knee, that's not a good situation. There is actually a good chance that they will be worse. And Crean could get fired next season if there is a perfect storm. By perfect storm, I mean another terrible season and if there is a really good coach on the market, Indiana will pull the trigger.
Look, I think my opinion of Crean has been pretty consist and pretty much the way 90% of Marquette community feels. I appreciate everything that Crean did but the way he left was a slap to the face of the University, students, alumni, fans, and sadly, his players. So I am trying to be objective about the situation and I think Crean is in a real tough spot. I think Buzz is in a better spot so odds are that Buzz will keep his job longer.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 26, 2010, 12:23:15 PM
From a talent perspective, you are correct. From a leadership perspective, I think you're selling short the value of seniors at the guard position. There's a reason why we have so few turnovers...senior guards. Lazar will be brutally tough to replace.
We are a jump shooting team. Its harder to commit a turnover shooting than putting the ball on the floor. I am not completely dismissing your senior guard point but there are other factors too.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 26, 2010, 11:39:48 AM
As for Buzz, he has a different scenario...he's going to have to prove he can do it without Crean's players over the next few years. If he does, then he'll be here for the long haul (hopefully, I'm sick of MU coaches leaving after 5 years). If he doesn't, then he'll be gone, too.
With the exception of Lazar, Buzz is proving he CAN do it with TC's players, and that's more impressive to me. When I look at the players he's brought in, I'm thinking they're an upgrade from Coobie and Mo.
Quote from: MU1984 on February 26, 2010, 12:24:09 PM
If Buzz leaves for a high profile gig then we went far in the NCAA's so its a worthwhile trade, IMO.
I don't....MU has finally shaken the stepping stone characterization. I hope Buzz is here for a LONG time because it means he's doing well (somehow this will be spun that I hate Buzz)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 26, 2010, 12:45:41 PM
MU has finally shaken the stepping stone characterization.
Umm, says who?
Quote from: downtown85 on February 26, 2010, 10:37:48 AM
Buzz will stay as long as MU will have him. Buzz has said on numerous occasions that as long as he is not kicked out, he is staying at MU. Now, one could argue that he's just saying that because that is what the fans/administration wants to hear and there is no upside in saying anything differently but I would argue that that is not his style. I think, at this time, he truly believes that.
Things change and who knows what the future will bring, but the gig he has now suits him perfectly for the following reasons:
-- Resources. MU provides lots of resources, whether it be chartered jets, top notch facilities
-- High Profile Program. He is building on a pretty high base in the best conference.
-- Pay. MU will pay him what he is worth.
-- Faith. This is not to be underestmated. Buzz seems pretty devout (even though he isn't catholic). I would say that the Christian aspect to the school appeals to him alot and allows him to be unrestrained in an important part of his life.
-- Intangibles The University mission which preaches service and excellence meshes well with his team first coaching philosophy. He is also given the freedom to pursue projects like Buzz's Bunch.
One thing to think about is Buzz's approach to the program and his ego. When it came time to do the coach's television show he refused the name of "The Buzz Williams Show" but instead named it "The Marquette Basketball Hour with Buzz Williams."
I just don't see him getting fired anytime soon. I also don't see him leaving for greener pastures anytime soon either. I do think that if his success continues he will get offers but I do not see ANY program right now as being greener for him. (however, I am not privy to his unspoken inner thoughts.)
Regarding the old coach, I don't know and really don't care.
+1 to everything except maybe a coaching offer at the University of Texas. One could hardly fault him for wanting to return home.
Quote from: MU1984 on February 26, 2010, 12:50:15 PM
Umm, says who?
Do you think we are still a stepping stone? Perhaps we are, but not like it was in the 1980's and 1990's. No coach going longer than 5 years, some as few as 3. Crean gave us 9 and could have jumped after the Final Four and several other times (he certainly had feelers out there). Him staying and the success that was brought to MU while playing in the Big East was HUGE. I'd hate to get back into a pattern of 5 year coaches. Not a good situation.
Quote from: avid1010 on February 26, 2010, 12:41:37 PM
With the exception of Lazar, Buzz is proving he CAN do it with TC's players, and that's more impressive to me. When I look at the players he's brought in, I'm thinking they're an upgrade from Coobie and Mo.
No disagreement from me at all. After this year, the book finally closes on TC at MU. No more leftovers. It's all Buzz. Good kids coming in, still don't have the height that so many here want, but we'll have to adjust. I'm always nervous about inexperienced point guards. That, and replacing Lazar Hayward, a candidate for Big East POY this year.
Quote from: downtown85 on February 26, 2010, 10:37:48 AM
Buzz will stay as long as MU will have him. Buzz has said on numerous occasions that as long as he is not kicked out, he is staying at MU. Now, one could argue that he's just saying that because that is what the fans/administration wants to hear and there is no upside in saying anything differently but I would argue that that is not his style. I think, at this time, he truly believes that.
Turns out Crean never considered Illinois. Why would he go house hunting if we was here for the long haul?
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/cusa/2003-04-22-crean-extension_x.htm
Buzz is a great guy, but just because he says he loves it at MU doesn't mean he won't be tempted if a KU or UK type job gets posted.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 26, 2010, 12:55:50 PM
Do you think we are still a stepping stone? Perhaps we are, but not like it was in the 1980's and 1990's. No coach going longer than 5 years, some as few as 3. Crean gave us 9 and could have jumped after the Final Four and several other times (he certainly had feelers out there). Him staying and the success that was brought to MU while playing in the Big East was HUGE. I'd hate to get back into a pattern of 5 year coaches. Not a good situation.
He still left to go to a "better" program. I would consider a program that is no longer considered a "stepping-stone" as Gonzaga, not Marquette...yet. I know we all would like to think Buzz wants to stay here for a long time and I'm sure he does right now. He has had a long, hard, strange trip to be a HC of a big conference school and I'm sure he is very happy to be here and we're more than happy to have him. That said, if we have any degree of success in the last weekend of March/first weekend of April, I still believe coaches will think the grass is greener away from Marquette, especially a guy who is from Texas and has zero ties to the area. I hope I'm wrong. I'm a huge fan, but we have to be realistic.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 26, 2010, 12:58:24 PM
No disagreement from me at all. After this year, the book finally closes on TC at MU. No more leftovers. It's all Buzz. Good kids coming in, still don't have the height that so many here want, but we'll have to adjust. I'm always nervous about inexperienced point guards. That, and replacing Lazar Hayward, a candidate for Big East POY this year.
As far as the height goes, we will be taller. Otule will probably get some productive minutes which will be an height improvement. And we are losing 2 of our shortest (2 of the shortest in the BEast) next year too. This year, we are undersized in almost every position. Next year, not so much.
To clarify: I don't think MU is a true stepping stone school. Mid-majors fit that profile, but I do think MU would be considered a tier-2 program, where the "step-up" would be to the elite schools, a la IU.
Quote from: ReneeRow on February 26, 2010, 12:55:35 PM
+1 to everything except maybe a coaching offer at the University of Texas. One could hardly fault him for wanting to return home.
I'm with you there. Unless its a major texas/southern program I think buzz stays in Milwaukee for good awhile.
Buzz is a family man with 4 kids that I believe are all under 8. Depending their ages if/when a major southern school job opens, he may not want to uproot them.
I think if he leaves MU it'll be at a point where he has done "everything he possibly could" at MU and he sees an opportunity to rebuild an above mentioned program.
Quote from: MU1984 on February 26, 2010, 01:11:56 PM
He still left to go to a "better" program. I would consider a program that is no longer considered a "stepping-stone" as Gonzaga, not Marquette...yet. I know we all would like to think Buzz wants to stay here for a long time and I'm sure he does right now. He has had a long, hard, strange trip to be a HC of a big conference school and I'm sure he is very happy to be here and we're more than happy to have him. That said, if we have any degree of success in the last weekend of March/first weekend of April, I still believe coaches will think the grass is greener away from Marquette, especially a guy who is from Texas and has zero ties to the area. I hope I'm wrong. I'm a huge fan, but we have to be realistic.
True, but he left to go to one of the 5 winningest programs in history. It's interesting you bring up Gonzaga. If Few leaves to take the Oregon job, not exactly a heavyweight job, does that change your perception?
When I say not a stepping stone, I mean when coaches are leaving to go to a women's basketball school (Kevin O'Neill) or taking an assistant job for the Milwaukee Bucks....that's big time stepping stone. Of course, when we're hiring the head coach from St. Peter's, that screams stepping stone as well. I agree that there are always going to be better jobs than MU, no question about that. It's when they leave for a lateral position that bothered me.
I don't have an issue when coaches are leaving for IU, KU, UK, UNC, UCLA.....it bugs the hell out of me when they are leaving for Tennessee.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 26, 2010, 04:11:09 PM
or taking an assistant job for the Milwaukee Bucks....that's big time stepping stone.
So, Indiana is a stepping-stone?
The battle for Branden Dawson could pit Crean, the homestate favorite from a better school, against Buzz. The kid may choose neither (especially with Purdue and MUS in his backyard), but it would be interesting to see how the two would do going head to head.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 26, 2010, 11:39:48 AM
As for Buzz, he has a different scenario...he's going to have to prove he can do it without Crean's players over the next few years. If he does, then he'll be here for the long haul (hopefully, I'm sick of MU coaches leaving after 5 years). If he doesn't, then he'll be gone, too.
So now Cubes and Acker are "Crean's players?" Their is only one Crean player on this team ... Lazar. No one ever thought Acker and Cubes would give us this kind of production ... even Crean!
Besides Acker quit and came back so he is now officially one of Buzz's players.
Quote from: copious1218 on February 26, 2010, 04:16:03 PM
So, Indiana is a stepping-stone?
LOL. In that case, it's a life saver with a rope attached to it. Sampson is criminal, can't believe the Bucks took him.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 26, 2010, 04:48:07 PM
So now Cubes and Acker are "Crean's players?" Their is only one Crean player on this team ... Lazar. No one ever thought Acker and Cubes would give us this kind of production ... even Crean!
Besides Acker quit and came back so he is now officially one of Buzz's players.
I mean recruited and played for Crean....thus Crean's players. The coach who convinced them to come to MU and play for his program..."Crean's players". Let's put it another way, they aren't at Marquette unless Tom Crean and his staff got them here, that's why I labeled them as such. Let's not read too much into this as I'm sure you're already well on the way to doing.
And yes, you're right, as freshmen and sophomores they aren't playing as well as seniors....crazy how that is the case for most players.
Quote from: martyconlonontherun on February 26, 2010, 12:59:35 PM
Turns out Crean never considered Illinois. Why would he go house hunting if we was here for the long haul?
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/cusa/2003-04-22-crean-extension_x.htm
Buzz is a great guy, but just because he says he loves it at MU doesn't mean he won't be tempted if a KU or UK type job gets posted.
That article actually makes me hate him more. I didn't think that was possible
Once TC is out of his recruiting probation situation Sampson got him in I think he will start to really build the program back up again. However, I hope Buzz can stay as long as he can.
Quote from: MU1984 on February 26, 2010, 01:11:56 PM
He still left to go to a "better" program. I would consider a program that is no longer considered a "stepping-stone" as Gonzaga, not Marquette...yet. I know we all would like to think Buzz wants to stay here for a long time and I'm sure he does right now. He has had a long, hard, strange trip to be a HC of a big conference school and I'm sure he is very happy to be here and we're more than happy to have him. That said, if we have any degree of success in the last weekend of March/first weekend of April, I still believe coaches will think the grass is greener away from Marquette, especially a guy who is from Texas and has zero ties to the area. I hope I'm wrong. I'm a huge fan, but we have to be realistic.
Agree with the draw that Texas would have to Buzz, and could one day see him leaving MU to go back home. That is realistic, and hard to fault a guy for that. I hope that doesn't turn out to be the case. Don't know that I agree that Gonzaga is a destination job, or not a stepping-stone program. I think it is unique that Few has chosen to stay as long as he has, but let's face it - he's got a good gig and thing going. The WCC is not that tough of conference, would he really want to compete in the Pac 10 or other BCS league? As far as other coachings wanting to go to Gonzaga?? Don't see it being that attractive. At least MU has the Big East, state of the art facilities, major urban environment, an ability to play pick up games agains professionals (Bucks) in the off season, play in a city that has an NBA team..and scouts in and out of Milwaukee consistently..etc.
Quote from: jwalsh on February 26, 2010, 05:07:11 PM
Once TC is out of his recruiting probation situation Sampson got him in I think he will start to really build the program back up again. However, I hope Buzz can stay as long as he can.
How does that have any impact?????
He was restricted a couple summers ago from some visits. Even II,II rescinded that after a bit. Oh yeah, they weren't allowed to go to a post season tourney last year. Not sure what tourney would have taken a 6 win team. They lost a scholarship the first year, which has since been reinstated.
Not sure how those severe penalities impacted his ability to recruit.
TC, Buzz leaves after MU wins the NCAA championship in 2012 ;D
Well whatever those probations are and for it says they stand for 3 years dating back to 2008.
Quote from: ecompt on February 26, 2010, 10:08:42 AM
Buzz or TC?
If you asked me before the season I would said Crean in a heartbeat, but not I'm not so sure. While MU's future looks bright, another year of blowouts at IU and the faithful will be screaming.
I didn't read any posts and not even sure why I am posting because I think this topic is discussed weekly. I hate Crean. I like Buzz. I vote Buzz.
The more I thought about it the less this makes sense. You are comparing two coaches who are connected by being MU coaches past and present. I get that. But one (Buzz) is overachieving this year and likely heading to the NCAA and then you have Crean who's team is getting sh!t canned every game. It doesn't makre for a very thrilling comparison...
First, I take Buzz at this word that he loves the job and place and intends to stay. However, I also think if the right job came along, he'd leave MU. "Right job" would be something in a more southerly clime, preferrably Texas. Second, as to the continued Crean bashing, I would only point out that for such a jerk, he sure recruited class student-atheletes, ie., Wade, Jackson, Novak Diener, James, Matthews, McNeal, Hayward..... MU's "presence" and reputation is reflected in these kinds of players all of whom were recruited by someone who many appear to believe was/is the Beelzebub of college coaches. All of the aforementioned players are class representatives of a great institution. For that alone, I'm glad Crean was there.
Just to jump in a little late on an earlier point, I think its incredibly difficult if not impossible for mid major jobs to ever be destination jobs. The best ones that come to mind are Gonzaga, Xavier, Memphis, and Butler. Of those, Xavier just lost its coach to Arizona (not elite, but certainly the next step down). Butler lost its coach to Iowa (ewww) not too long ago. Memphis, well, we all know where he is. And that leaves Gonzaga, where I still think Few is waiting for the perfect job to come along. More of a personal choice than a commentary on the school. Of those four mid major jobs that are among the best in the country, two have recently lost their coaches to non elite programs.
As for MU, in my head we fit into a sort of third tier of teams. Top tier are naturally the KU,UNC,UCLA,UK, etc etc. Then there is a second tier that would include programs such as Georgetown, Arizona, Texas, etc. Then there is the next level that is made up of a BCS schools that are great jobs, but lack the size or tradition, or money of the schools above them. Schools such as MU, Tennessee, Wisconsin, Georgia Tech, etc make up that tier.
I agree and that is really hard to say cause we want to think of MU as top tier. Well said.
Crean's got a long term contract which I believe keeps him at IU for at least 3 or 4 more years (his contract is for longer than that). If IU is not going to NCAA tourneys on a consistent basis at that point and showing signs of being a final four contender soon after that, he will be gone. Crean's got a lot of work to do as his incoming freshman class is O.K., but he needs more than O.K. There is always a ton of talent in Indiana, but I believe if he doesn't land Teague and Zeller for 2011, he's in trouble long term.
Buzz will stay at MU until he takes them to the final four and gets an offer from a better basketball school. In order for that to happen, I believe Buzz will have to be at Marquette for quite a while, so I'll go with Buzz.
Quote from: The Pickle on February 27, 2010, 07:24:05 AM
The more I thought about it the less this makes sense. You are comparing two coaches who are connected by being MU coaches past and present. I get that. But one (Buzz) is overachieving this year and likely heading to the NCAA and then you have Crean who's team is getting sh!t canned every game. It doesn't makre for a very thrilling comparison...
But the point is that it isn't really a direct comparison, like who is better, it's an inverse comparison, since Crean leaving means he failed and Buzz leaving means he succeeded wildly. So will Crean suck so bad at IU he gets fired before Buzz gets offered a job he can't refuse, I think that's what makes it a fun question.
When Buzz leaves Marquette after his championships, does MU rehire Crean away from the DII school where he will be coaching at that time? ;D
Quote from: Litehouse on February 27, 2010, 03:29:33 PM
But the point is that it isn't really a direct comparison, like who is better, it's an inverse comparison, since Crean leaving means he failed and Buzz leaving means he succeeded wildly. So will Crean suck so bad at IU he gets fired before Buzz gets offered a job he can't refuse, I think that's what makes it a fun question.
Ok, I see what direction this is being taken. In that case, I think we have awhile before Buzz is leaving for "a better job". If and when the opportunity arises, hopefully he will take a look around and realize he has it pretty good...
I'll name you two stepping stone schools...
Xavier and Butler. They're all in the NCAA every year.
I could give a rats tail about being called a stepping school. If Buzz leaves tomorrow I'm confident Fr. Wild will find a suitable replacement.
At this point, considering our conference instability we are a stepping stone job. IU is a much, much better job, which of course makes it hilarious that TC is floundering so much there.
Quote from: Schoolyard on February 27, 2010, 11:17:17 PM
I'll name you two stepping stone schools...
Xavier and Butler. They're all in the NCAA every year.
I could give a rats tail about being called a stepping school. If Buzz leaves tomorrow I'm confident Fr. Wild will find a suitable replacement.
At this point, considering our conference instability we are a stepping stone job. IU is a much, much better job, which of course makes it hilarious that TC is floundering so much there.
Yes, but those are both mid-major conferences which is a HUGE difference. When you're at the top of a mid-major and always winning, it's easier to recover with a new coach. When you're in a major conference and go on a down streak, it's very difficult to come back. See NC State, St. John's, DePaul, Seton Hall, etc, etc. The margin for error to come back is smaller because there are so many good teams in the conference. In the mid major conferences, the margin for error is much greater.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 28, 2010, 01:00:07 AM
Yes, but those are both mid-major conferences which is a HUGE difference. When you're at the top of a mid-major and always winning, it's easier to recover with a new coach. When you're in a major conference and go on a down streak, it's very difficult to come back. See NC State, St. John's, DePaul, Seton Hall, etc, etc. The margin for error to come back is smaller because there are so many good teams in the conference. In the mid major conferences, the margin for error is much greater.
Dont forget MU was in a mid major conference just 5 yrs ago. Its Indiana got us out according to you, kudos to him
Also dont forget that this season MU could have been one of those major conference teams that hires a new coach and goes on that down streak. Even though buzzsaw brought in a good class, injuries, transfers, and unsuccessful recruits along with losing the guys from last year could have led to the beginning of a downward spiral. Buzz Williams got us out of that, kudos to him
Quote from: mudimitri on February 28, 2010, 01:59:36 AM
Dont forget MU was in a mid major conference just 5 yrs ago. Its Indiana got us out according to you, kudos to him
Also dont forget that this season MU could have been one of those major conference teams that hires a new coach and goes on that down streak. Even though buzzsaw brought in a good class, injuries, transfers, and unsuccessful recruits along with losing the guys from last year could have led to the beginning of a downward spiral. Buzz Williams got us out of that, kudos to him
Conference USA was a hybrid and not a true Mid Major when we were there. The conference sent 4 or 5 teams a year to the NCAAs, at times sending more than the Big Ten did. That's not the same as the Horizon (where Butler plays...1 bid conference) or the A-10 (normally a 2 or 3 bid conference....this year being the exception)
What do you mean this year could have been one of those years we would have hired a new coach? Did Buzz almost leave after last season? Or are you saying Crean would have left after last season? Certainly possible, the timing would have been right, but what opening would he have taken that was available? Memphis?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 28, 2010, 02:03:38 AM
Conference USA was a hybrid and not a true Mid Major when we were there. The conference sent 4 or 5 teams a year to the NCAAs, at times sending more than the Big Ten did. That's not the same as the Horizon (where Butler plays...1 bid conference) or the A-10 (normally a 2 or 3 bid conference....this year being the exception)
What do you mean this year could have been one of those years we would have hired a new coach? Did Buzz almost leave after last season? Or are you saying Crean would have left after last season? Certainly possible, the timing would have been right, but what opening would he have taken that was available? Memphis?
Is 'hybrid' sorta like 'soft bubble'? I lost ya on the second point, but maybe because I just heard Lunardi say via skype that ND is the first team outta the dance... i think thats a little much just yet
Sorry, I was putting my clown makeup on.
Do you think that Conference USA with Cincinnati, Louisville, Marquette, etc was a mid major conference? There's a reason why CUSA sent several teams to the Final Four and other mid major conferences didn't. Because CUSA was not a mid-major conference.
You lost me on your original part about the hiring ..."Also dont forget that this season MU could have been one of those major conference teams that hires a new coach". What did you mean by this?
not to put words in his mouth, but im guessing he means with the three amigos gone MU could have taken a big step back and had a losing season with a coaching transition and all. It was not an unlikely scenario during preseason.
Buzz hands down. One of two things will happen with Tom Crean. Either he will be unsuccessful and eventually lose the gig or he will eventually achieve and be hired away by the NBA and the Indiana Pacers. Why? For no other reason than....... It's Indiana! ... It's Indiana! ;) :D
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 28, 2010, 02:26:24 AM
Sorry, I was putting my clown makeup on.
Do you think that Conference USA with Cincinnati, Louisville, Marquette, etc was a mid major conference? There's a reason why CUSA sent several teams to the Final Four and other mid major conferences didn't. Because CUSA was not a mid-major conference.
You lost me on your original part about the hiring ..."Also dont forget that this season MU could have been one of those major conference teams that hires a new coach". What did you mean by this?
People had they're jockstraps tied up in knots when Billy Packer called MU a mid-major. But, he was right. BTW, what has IU done since Davis took them to the FF? Still think it's a top 5 job? I never did. Was Bob Knight a top 5 coach? Absolutely, and that's why people think of the Hoosiers as a top 5 program. The Warriors were a top 5 program under Al and would have remained so had Al stayed longer than 13 years. The administration dropped their commitment to basketball when he left or didn't have the compass to continue on the right path.
Quote from: boyonthedock on February 28, 2010, 04:11:17 AM
not to put words in his mouth, but im guessing he means with the three amigos gone MU could have taken a big step back and had a losing season with a coaching transition and all. It was not an unlikely scenario during preseason.
Thats exactly what I meant, sometimes I complicate things
With the 3 seniors gone and a new coach in a tough conference, not to menion a recruiting class that didnt pan out as epected, MU could have gone into one hell of a tailspin
I say recruiting class that didnt exactly pan out because of an injury to junior, transfer of maymon, nonexistence of ewill and yous...Buzz has basically kept the program in the top half due to his JC signings of butler and djo and his coaching of this years undersized and undertalented overachieving squad
Quote from: 4everwarriors on February 28, 2010, 07:59:10 AM
People had they're jockstraps tied up in knots when Billy Packer called MU a mid-major. But, he was right. BTW, what has IU done since Davis took them to the FF? Still think it's a top 5 job? I never did. Was Bob Knight a top 5 coach? Absolutely, and that's why people think of the Hoosiers as a top 5 program. The Warriors were a top 5 program under Al and would have remained so had Al stayed longer than 13 years. The administration dropped their commitment to basketball when he left or didn't have the compass to continue on the right path.
IU is one of the top 5 Programs of all time, but most certainly not one one of the top 5 jobs at this point. I think I've been very consistent in those remarks that it's about the future and what it could be, not the present and what it is today.
Billy Packer was wrong and lazy
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on February 28, 2010, 02:26:24 AM
Sorry, I was putting my clown makeup on.
Do you think that Conference USA with Cincinnati, Louisville, Marquette, etc was a mid major conference? There's a reason why CUSA sent several teams to the Final Four and other mid major conferences didn't. Because CUSA was not a mid-major conference.
You lost me on your original part about the hiring ..."Also dont forget that this season MU could have been one of those major conference teams that hires a new coach". What did you mean by this?
haha nice chicos, i may have overreacted :o... I agree with you that it wasnt a typical mid major conf, but others might not. Same way that some disagree that its a soft bubble (jay bilas agrees with you by the way)
Quote from: mugrack on February 27, 2010, 03:48:02 PM
When Buzz leaves Marquette after his championships, does MU rehire Crean away from the DII school where he will be coaching at that time? ;D
In the 50's Wisconsin-born-and-raised Lisle Blackburn (sp?) was a successful head football coach at MU. Hired away by the Packers, he had a miserable experience (often called rookie Paul Hornung by the nickname "golden domer." - LOL) "Liz" was canned for by Green Bay, and found his way back to MU as a replacement for the incredibly inept Johnny Druze, who MU hired away from ND, because he was such a good recruiter. Marquette dropped football, ending LB's second tenure as head coach.
I have no idea why I posted this, except that the above suggested a parallel coaching tidbit from MU athletic history.
hooplooping bumper
Quote from: LancesOtherNut on March 21, 2014, 07:10:20 PM
Haha. You have wood, admit it.
Nope, and I'm worried about Lenny's health right now
Pretty funny. I'd have lost this bet and not for a reason I saw coming.