MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: LastWarrior on February 20, 2010, 11:39:58 AM
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I had the pleasure of talking to Father Wild at the game on Thursday. We talked about Buzz and the hiring process. I expressed how many of us alumni are very happy with the hire, the performance of the team, and in particular Buzz's ability to convey the beliefs and character of our faith & school. He said that there was a lot of internal concern with the alumni reaction to the hire and not everybody on the hiring committee was 100% behind it. They said the one thing they knew for sure was that he'd be able to recruit but weren't sure how he'd be with the players and his coaching ability. So they took a large leap of faith and received a lot of alumni backlash at the time.
I told him that while Buzz still seems to be learning and developing his in-game strategy, the way he's been able to get the team to perform this year with so many injuries and general lack of top-level talent has been tremendous. I told him that I was one of the alumni that was concerned about us not going after a big name hire and wondered about Buzz's lack of experience but was willing to give him a chance. I went on to say that Buzz first started to win me over with his honest and straight-forward personality which came across in his interviews and radio show. Then I completely bought in with the way he had the team playing last year before DJ's injury. As an alumnus, I was proud of Buzz, the team and their excellent effort... well maybe not on Thu! ;)
Looking back, I told him I thought Buzz was as close to a homerun hire as we could have hoped for and that the hiring committee and specifically Father Wild should be commended for making the hire. As an alumnus, I was very thankful for their decision. His response caught me slightly off-guard... he said " thanks, that means a lot because I haven't heard that from very many of the alumni". I responded by saying that all of my alumni friends share my sentiments and I'm surprised that he hasn't heard more positive alumni comments on Buzz.
So my question to my fellow MU fans is... are you still on the fence with the hire and if so, what are your concerns? If you think that Buzz is as good as hire as I do, please be sure to thank Father Wild for the hire next time you see him!
Lastly, for those of you who haven't met or talked with Father Wild, please introduce yourself next time you see him. He's a tremendous individual who deeply cares about Marquette and the alumni base. He was very generous with his time on Thursday to the point where I felt I was monopolizing his time! While we may not always agree with is decisions, I know that he is truly doing what he thinks is best for the University.
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I am fully behind Buzz.
For now. ;D
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LW, were you wearing Warrior gear?
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LW, were you wearing Warrior gear?
Funny you say that... I let a friend borrow my gameday standard Warriors Forever shirt for the game and I was going with my plain gold Marquette Basketball shirt. I didn't broach the Warriors subject as I really just wanted to compliment Father Wild on the hire and let him know how highly I thought about Buzz as a coach and representative of MU.
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Great post last Warrior. I agree with your statements 100%. Buzz's self-effacing and humble personality is refreshing in this time of larger than life college coaches. Buzz has a lot to learn, but don't we all. I have been in my current profession for over 25 years, but I still have much to learn. I hope we give Buzz the chance he deserves, as I believe it will pay dividends. Kudos to Father Wild.
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Has anyone, other than Rican and I, expressed to Fr. Wild what a breath of humble fresh air Buzz is, as opposed to the previous coach?
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Has anyone, other than Rican and I, expressed to Fr. Wild what a breath of humble fresh air Buzz is, as opposed to the previous coach?
Your underwear (er, agenda) is showing again. ::)
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Buzz has been fantastic. His personality is just night and day better than our previous guy...but I must say I still question the process that led to us hiring him. He has worked out, but he was absolutely not qualified to be a Big East head coach. I said it at the time, the fact he's become a head basketball coach at a high major university reminds me of the Peter Sellars movie "Being There." Chauncy Gardner. I have a very difficult time believing that Cottingham made this hire. I don't believe he did.
But I like him...no doubt about that.
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I have a very difficult time believing that Cottingham made this hire. I don't believe he did.
He did...however, MU only interviewed Buzz so it's kind of a mute point.
Buzz is greatly exceeding expectations. Here's to hoping he continues to improve.
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mute point.
Or moot. Whichever.
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Again, this comes down to being able to differentiate between the coach/results and the process that put him in place to be coach.
I've been nothing but thrilled with what Buzz has done so far. Sure there are a few things I'd do differently, but I'm sitting at home on my fat arse during games, not coaching with a lifetime spent in the game so what do I know. Last year gets tossed out somewhat due to the three seniors. But post DJs injury, he showed he could cobble an undersized and undermanned squad to win in the Big East. I'm also a realist and I know that while being the top of the Big East is our goal, we are a long way from that and need to build to get there. Buzz has/is doing that with the players that he has in place. That said...
The head coach of MU's hoops teams is the most public position at the school. And how the hoops team does goes miles towards the number of applications and donations the school gets. Also, the better the team does, the better the perception of the school. As alumni we want/need the team to do well to keep it in good standing with the public. That being said, whenever the day Buzz leaves, Cottingham and Wild friggin' better have a plan in place of who to contact the minute Buzz is leaving. It was clear Cottingham had no clue what he was doing when TC bolted. To say we got lucky would be an understatement.
Look at Michigan football right now. They got caught with their pants down and didn't have a #2 firmly lined up. When they didn't get their first choice (and second, and third...) panic set in and they settled on Rich Rod (yes, a good coach to settle with I still say and who my still be a success). And Rich Rod split the alumni right to the core. Look where they are now.
As long as MU learns from this, that's fine. But we can't roll those dice again. Hopefully Cottingham learned from that mistake.
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And if I ever have the pleasure of getting some time w/Father Wild I'll tell him that to his face. He's a great stand-up guy who we should all be proud of and I'm sure he's a big boy and can take/has taken this criticism. It's obvious that he has based on the comments he told you about not getting compliments on Buzz.
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He did...however, MU only interviewed Buzz so it's kind of a mute point.
Buzz is greatly exceeding expectations. Here's to hoping he continues to improve.
My point is that it was not Cottingham's decision. I understand his name is on it.
Buzz was hired by Dick Strong, on the recommendation of horse's ass Tom Crean.
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Tulsa University has had some good ones over the years Nolan Richardson, Tubby Smith and Bill Self. The problem has been holding on to a good one. Tulsa hired an assistant coach with area ties with the hope of holding on to a coach long term. It didn't work out. The school has some money to throw around and never found a long term fit.
Buzz might be that fit for Marquette. I think there's a chance there may be a statue of him someday at the Al.
Despite Marquette's fairly deep pockets. It's not a fit for every up and comer coach. If Marquette had hired Dick Bennett when he sought the job school history would have been different. Tony Bennett would have been a Marquette star and would be the school's head coach now.
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My point is that it was not Cottingham's decision. I understand his name is on it.
Buzz was hired by Dick Strong, on the recommendation of horse's ass Tom Crean.
Tony B was Dick's guy.
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Tony B was Dick's guy.
That may be, but we know for a fact that Strong interviewed Buzz. I'm guessing once Bennett (who I wanted us to hire) turned him down, he called in Buzz and hired him.
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Tony B was Dick's guy.
You sure Tony B wasn't the guy's Dick?
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Has anyone, other than Rican and I, expressed to Fr. Wild what a breath of humble fresh air Buzz is, as opposed to the previous coach?
Yawn... There would be no Buzz without the previous coach.
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It was clear Cottingham had no clue what he was doing when TC bolted. To say we got lucky would be an understatement.
As long as MU learns from this, that's fine. But we can't roll those dice again. Hopefully Cottingham learned from that mistake.
Sorry, but what is clear is that you have no clue about what Cottingham and the rest actually did. The description I got from a reliable insider was that Marquette did in fact have a plan in place, that it contacted Bennett, who contemplated taking the job before deciding to stay at Washington State, and two others who declined the job, then interviewed Buzz with some contingency plans in place in case he did not work out. They hardly threw a dart at a dart board while wearing a blindfold.
I am going to take the opinion of people who get paid to make such decisions over those of a guy on a message board whose knowledge of what is going on is limited to what he reads on message boards.
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Your underwear (er, agenda) is showing again. ::)
Have I ever pretended otherwise?
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I think Buzz has done an incredible job so far at Marquette. It is amazing how he has squeezed every last bit of abiliy out of Mo and Cubey. He also is such a great personality and is all about the program. He works extremely hard and is a fantastic recruiter. I hope he is here to stay.
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I'll stay consistent....so far so good but will make my full evaluation after year 4 or 5. I do not think he was a homerun hire as the first post stated.
He's done very well with Crean's players and I love. Butler and DJO. Jury is out on Williams, Buycks, bigs, etc.
But so far so good.
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I do not think he was a homerun hire as the first post stated.
Just to be clear, I did not say he was a homerun hire. I said... "Looking back, I told him I thought Buzz was as close to a homerun hire as we could have hoped for and that the hiring committee and specifically Father Wild should be commended for making the hire."
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Last year gets tossed out somewhat due to the three seniors.
I completely disagree with this mindset. Every year there are talented teams that underachieve...look at UConn this year. Mega talented team, yet underachieving.
You know which coaches make the Hall of Fame? Coaches who win, and win a lot. Who wins the most games? The coaches with the best players.
I just don't understand how the players get credit when teams win, and the coach is blamed when teams lose.
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I completely disagree with this mindset. Every year there are talented teams that underachieve...look at UConn this year. Mega talented team, yet underachieving.
You know which coaches make the Hall of Fame? Coaches who win, and win a lot. Who wins the most games? The coaches with the best players.
I just don't understand how the players get credit when teams win, and the coach is blamed when teams lose.
Right, but you are missing the point. They weren't HIS players. They were TC's. No knock on Buzz, but making the NCAA was all but assured last year, and to be frank, 1-1 in the tourney was an underachievement.
You really can't judge him based on last year, positively or negatively. No, he didn't blow it, but he didn't do anything spectacular either, given the circumstances. We shouldn't commend him just because we didn't pull a UCONN and underachieve.
I'd say this year however, he's done everything we could have asked of him and more. We're staying above water with his players. So based on that, I'd say (as of right now) he was a relatively good hire. Next year will be very important in terms of Buzz's legacy and future with MU. He got a bit of a pass this year and exceeded relatively low expectations. Next year the bar is set quite a bit higher.
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I'll stay consistent....so far so good but will make my full evaluation after year 4 or 5. I do not think he was a homerun hire as the first post stated.
He's done very well with Crean's players and I love. Butler and DJO. Jury is out on Williams, Buycks, bigs, etc.
But so far so good.
I'll also stay consistant....Buzz has done a far better job coaching TC's recruits than Crean himself did. He's also a better recruiter and a better guy. Game, set, match.
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To be completely honest, there is an inverse phenomenon to "You don't know what you've got till its gone." and its something like "You don't know what you could have until you've got it."
What I mean is that when the initial Buzz hire was made, I was actually concerned about how well he seemed to represent the identity of the institution. I was concerned that the administration overlooked the negative effects the hire would have on the success of the program in favor of a popular guy who would say all the right things. So now that we have both (a relatively successful program with the promise of more to come AND a great representative for the university) it looks like a great hire. So far so good, but my appreciation of the representative Buzz is at MU would fade if we saw 5 straight losing seasons.
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His ass won't be here 5 seasons into losing.
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Just to be clear, I did not say he was a homerun hire. I said... "Looking back, I told him I thought Buzz was as close to a homerun hire as we could have hoped for and that the hiring committee and specifically Father Wild should be commended for making the hire."
Sorry LW, I was reading your initial post an iPhone. You are correct. My apologies.
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I'll also stay consistant....Buzz has done a far better job coaching TC's recruits than Crean himself did. He's also a better recruiter and a better guy. Game, set, match.
Perhaps. Although I'd like to know on what premise you say this. Do you think last year under Crean MU would not have won the same number of games and gone to the 2nd round of the NCAA tournament?
I think you're wrong if you believe that, but whatever.
As far as a better recruiter, at the end of this season Crean will have been responsible for the number 1, number 3, number 5, number 8, number 11 and number TBD (Lazar) all time leading scorers in MU history (this doesn't even include Dwyane Wade, either). Also the #2, #3, & #7 all-time assist leaders. The number 1, 4 & 10 all time steals leaders. The best 3 point shooter in school history. The 5th & 7th best shot blockers in school history.
We'll see where Buzz's guys rank out over the course of history. So far so good, but as much as Crean is bashed as a recruiter, it's amazing how many quality players he got for us. Also amazing how many NCAA tournaments we went to considering how poor of a coach he was.
To stay consistent with your analysis Lenny, if Buzz is a better recruiter and better game coach, then MU should do BETTER under Buzz than Crean. That's a tall order. I hope you're right, but that HAS TO BE THE CONCLUSION based on your analysis.
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The Buzz hire has worked out VERY well for MU! He has done well with the players he inherited, he has recruited high major talent, he's coaching is improving and as a face of the program he has become known as someone the school can be proud of. Buzz has exceeded expecations.
I disagree with those who are stuck on the "process" being flawed. There was a process in place; there were more recognizable names we sought as first, second and third options but were turned down. Buzz was not first priority but after the first options were no longer viable ones, we "settled" for Buzz. For a position like this, after you keep swingin' n missin' with your first 3 options, the longer you keep searching, the more you seem desparate as a program. I'm glad we "settled". He has turned out to be a good hire.
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I'll admit that I'm still on the fence about hiring Buzz.
On the plus side, I like the fact that he gets his team to play hard every game, they have over-achieved thus far as to where the talent level would indicate they should be, and he seems to have a great work ethic. He also has come out with some good game plans this year to pull off some upsets.
On the negative side, I wish he would develop more of a bench and play more guys in early season games to get some experience, I wish he would use time outs better during games, and I'm not sure about his ability to work younger guys into the program. I also might be one of the few who thinks he comes off as a little too goofy in some of his radio interviews and sometimes puts down his players too much.
If Butler and DJO pick up their games even more next year and he can work the younger players into the lineup and develop an 8-9 man bench then I'll feel much more comfortable about the hire.
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I'll admit that I'm still on the fence about hiring Buzz.
On the plus side, I like the fact that he gets his team to play hard every game, they have over-achieved thus far as to where the talent level would indicate they should be, and he seems to have a great work ethic. He also has come out with some good game plans this year to pull off some upsets.
On the negative side, I wish he would develop more of a bench and play more guys in early season games to get some experience, I wish he would use time outs better during games, and I'm not sure about his ability to work younger guys into the program. I also might be one of the few who thinks he comes off as a little too goofy in some of his radio interviews and sometimes puts down his players too much.
If Butler and DJO pick up their games even more next year and he can work the younger players into the lineup and develop an 8-9 man bench then I'll feel much more comfortable about the hire.
+1.
Also agree with the analysis on Crean vs. Buzz by Chicos. If Buzz is better, will go to the postseason every year (and more often than not, the NCAA rather than the NIT) and average 20 wins, and make a Final Four somewhere in there. Can Buzz do this? Again, so far so good. But that's a pretty tall order. As much as Crean bugged me for lots of reasons, he did great things for MU, and let's not forget that.
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I like both Chicos and Lenny's remarks about the difference between Crean and Buzz. I've been watching MU since I was accepted in '75. Had a great freshman indoc into the program in '77. I liked Crean for getting us back onto the national picture, helping us into the BE, and keeping the program on an upswing. We had a lot of exciting moments under Crean. When Tom left, he became dead to me, and I feel the same way about him now as I did for IU when they defeated my new school in the '76 tournament. A fitting place for him to go as a new version of Benedict Arnold. Buzz' hire worried me a little to say the least, but if I was so smart, Fr Wild would have asked my advice (he didn't, by the way). The one thing I liked was Buzz was a recruiter. When your winter highs are usually in single digits, you need a real good one.
I've always been one to support those that I work for and those that work for me. Only way to have a chance at winning, so it was support Buzz and keep my mouth shut for while. Now I'm real glad I did. At this point, we have a diamond in the rough. He's recruiting very well (not perfect, but on an upswing). His coaching is not an easy job. A lot of complaining over the lack of playing time for this guy or that, use of timeouts, etc... Really folks, we've complained about everybody's coaching except Al's. I'm willing to bet if the boards were around back then, a few of his T's would have been heavily scrutinized.
Bottom line is Buzz is doing very well. At this point, I couldn't be happier that we are extremely likely to finish with 10+ wins, and the experts predicted we would be content with six or seven - and no NIT bid. Buzz seems to have a knack to motivate and gel young self-centered egotistical teens into unselfish men. If he takes on a "project," at this point I have to trust him. He finds solid talent where few saw it (Jimmy Butler for example). Our season has got to make some kids in high school look our way, as the team on the floor is one that is always the underdog and either wins, or makes the other team earn it. Pure character led by upperclassmen who play beyond what the critics think they can. Leadership starts at the top, and Buzz is doing a great job. I like him a lot better than Crean, and (sorry don't start a rant on this) I liked Crean.
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I'll admit that I'm still on the fence about hiring Buzz.
On the plus side, I like the fact that he gets his team to play hard every game, they have over-achieved thus far as to where the talent level would indicate they should be, and he seems to have a great work ethic. He also has come out with some good game plans this year to pull off some upsets.
On the negative side, I wish he would develop more of a bench and play more guys in early season games to get some experience, I wish he would use time outs better during games, and I'm not sure about his ability to work younger guys into the program. I also might be one of the few who thinks he comes off as a little too goofy in some of his radio interviews and sometimes puts down his players too much.
If Butler and DJO pick up their games even more next year and he can work the younger players into the lineup and develop an 8-9 man bench then I'll feel much more comfortable about the hire.
Very fair analysis, and I agree 100%.
I'm not "in love" with Buzz yet, but I like him so far and I'm optimistic for the future.
Also, even if MU was bad this year, I wouldn't "hate" Buzz. I really think it takes 3-5 years to evaluate any coach.
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Perhaps. Although I'd like to know on what premise you say this. Do you think last year under Crean MU would not have won the same number of games and gone to the 2nd round of the NCAA tournament?
I think you're wrong if you believe that, but whatever.
As far as a better recruiter, at the end of this season Crean will have been responsible for the number 1, number 3, number 5, number 8, number 11 and number TBD (Lazar) all time leading scorers in MU history (this doesn't even include Dwyane Wade, either). Also the #2, #3, & #7 all-time assist leaders. The number 1, 4 & 10 all time steals leaders. The best 3 point shooter in school history. The 5th & 7th best shot blockers in school history.
We'll see where Buzz's guys rank out over the course of history. So far so good, but as much as Crean is bashed as a recruiter, it's amazing how many quality players he got for us. Also amazing how many NCAA tournaments we went to considering how poor of a coach he was.
To stay consistent with your analysis Lenny, if Buzz is a better recruiter and better game coach, then MU should do BETTER under Buzz than Crean. That's a tall order. I hope you're right, but that HAS TO BE THE CONCLUSION based on your analysis.
Last year's team was 23-4, 12-2 in Big East play and #8 in the polls when DJ went down. Numbers only reached once during Crean's tenure - the final 4 team. Do I think TC could have done that with last year's group? No chance. You predicted MU to finish 9-9 in the Big East. At 12-6 (probably14-2, at least 13-3 without DJ's injury) Buzz blew away your prognostication. This year we are on the NCAA bubble with a team picked for 12th place BEFORE injuries to JR and OTule and Maymon's defection. Do I think TC could have done that with this year's group? No chance. Again, if I'm not mistaken you thought a 10-8 Big East record (prior to injuries and defection) would mean Buzz was Coach of the Year (don't remember if that was National or Big East). So by your own expectations Buzz has overachieved big time in each of his first two years. At most TC overachieved 3 times in his 9 years and in retrospect (as we now know Wade is the best current NBA player to play in college) the number is more fairly 1. Coaching advantage = cleary to Buzz.
As regards recruiting I am not a "Crean basher". However I'm not as seduced as you are by numbers skewed by an inordinate amount of 3 or 4 year starters that became the rule with TC's uneven recruiting.
Tom Crean had a .664 winning pct. at MU. In 9 years he went to 5 NCAA's and 3 NIT's. He was 7-8 in postseason and advanced past the 1st round in the NCAA tournament once. I don't know if Buzz will ever make the final 4 (Wade was a once in a lifetime perfect storm scenario) but I do believe his record will prove superior to Crean's in every other measurable way.
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Last year's team was 23-4, 12-2 in Big East play and #8 in the polls when DJ went down. Numbers only reached once during Crean's tenure - the final 4 team. Do I think TC could have done that with last year's group? No chance.
Why?
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No chance? LOL
Please explain. I'd like to hear this. Especially when you compare other years to other teams....each year is different. To compare other teams is beyond ridiculous. Last year's team was senior laden and there is nothing to suggest the previous regime doesn't get the same results.
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No chance? LOL
Please explain. I'd like to hear this. Especially when you compare other years to other teams....each year is different. To compare other teams is beyond ridiculous. Last year's team was senior laden and there is nothing to suggest the previous regime doesn't get the same results.
Well first of all, under Crean... Wes probably doesn't have as good of year and DJ doesn't turn into a PG and buy into the team philosophy.
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Well first of all, under Crean... Wes probably doesn't have as good of year and DJ doesn't turn into a PG and buy into the team philosophy.
How do we know that?
The truth is, we don't know anything, so any speculation is probably more based upon everybody's biases rather than any actual facts.
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How do we know that?
The truth is, we don't know anything, so any speculation is probably more based upon everybody's biases rather than any actual facts.
Speculation sure, but it's based off of their first three years at MU under Crean and then their performance with one year under Buzz.
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why is it speculation for three years Wesley was barely an option in a set based offense that had Wes standing around trying to force feed the ball to Jerel as the #1 option and usually DJ or LAzar as option #2 and #3. Also, crean's 'brilliance" tried to turn Dj into a SG #1 option in his sophomore year. Similply a terrible mis assement trying to make him a shooter/scorer. Buzz got him to understand that his best opportunity to be great and to make his team great was to be a great defender and a great distrbutor. Crean never saw it that way and tried to make DJ a SG, which hurt Dj and the team.
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How do we know that?
The truth is, we don't know anything, so any speculation is probably more based upon everybody's biases rather than any actual facts.
Thank God there is no room for speculation on this board!
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Speculation sure, but it's based off of their first three years at MU under Crean and then their performance with one year under Buzz.
hmmm... I know where you are going, but I think it's just too hard to say.
Jerel didn't become MU's all-time leading scorer because Buzz was at MU for 1 season. He was a great player for 4 years. Same can be said for Wes.
All 3 of them seemed to get a little better each season, and each seemed to have their best season their senior year. Is that because of Buzz Williams, or because they worked very hard and improved each year? (with assistance from the coaching staff).
Steve Novak had his best season as a senior. Is that because TC suddenly became a better coach, or because Novak improved each year and was at his best as a senior? Was it because the DJ joined the team?
Robert Jackson transferred to MU and had his best year as a senior. Was TC responsible for that? Not really. I think RJ was physically at his best as a senior because he worked his a** off and had other great players around him.
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What a stupid, idiotic conversation... that I am delighted to join.
The year before Buzz took over, the team was ranked the entire year. They reached as high as #10 (mostly early in the season) and spent the latter part of the season ranked in the twenties.
#1 - it's not that crazy to think that the team could have been better and ranked just as high the following season when all three players were seniors.
The year before Buzz took over, the team was better statistically than they were when Buzz was coach. 2008 overall ranking (#11). 2009 overall ranking (#19). Also, the team was a lot better defensively the year before Buzz was coach (#10 in 2008; #51 in 2009). They were, however, better offensively under Buzz (#24 in 2008; #9 in 2009)
#2 - In some measures, the team got worse under Buzz than they were under Crean. In some measures, they got better.
Here are Matthew's efficiencies from his Freshman year through his Senior Year. (99.1, 106.1, 111.2, 116.8). Anyone else notice a trend? The key difference, however, is the increase in possessions under Buzz (22.5%, 22.2%, 20.1%, 24.7%). Of course, Matthews was still getting plenty of possessions under Crean too.
#3 - Matthews would have still gotten better by the same amount, but the difference is that Buzz used him more.
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Now, lest I be accused of being a Crean lover or a Crean hater or a Crean anything, my point is that the team was pretty good the year before their senior season, so it's not crazy to think that Matthews would have still been good and that team would have still done good things. The team would have just looked different with most likely equivalent results.
Also, I like Buzz more than Crean.
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Thank God there is no room for speculation on this board!
Speculation? Yes.
Saying things like "It was Buzz who got DJ to understand how to be a PG" is a little too wild for me. Really? We know that? DJ looked like the same player with some improved decision making skills and better shot selection.
I mean, how the F do assign that credit to Buzz? Maybe DJ matured as a player. Certainly good coaching can foster that maturity, but ultimately the player has to mature in the decision making category.
Buzz should take the blame for Jerel's lack of decision making ability senior year, right? Same thing, no?
Should Crean get sole credit for Robert Jackson having his best year as a senior? Probably not. He certainly helped Rob, but RJ was a good player when he stepped on campus.
I'm not saying Buzz deserves NO credit, I'm just saying that the 4 seniors and Lazar would have been a pretty good team no matter if it was TC or Buzz coaching.
Let's not anoint Buzz quite yet. I really like him, but lets not forget the amount of talent last year's team really had.
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Also, I like Buzz more than Crean.
Hey! stick to numbers sugar. We don't keep you around for your opinions.
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Why?
Crean accomplished a similar start once in 9 years and that was in a WAY weaker conference. All he needed to do it was 2 outstanding bigs (Jackson and Merritt), 2 NBA players (Diener and Novak) and the 3rd greatest player in the world (Wade). Last year's team (playing in what some called the toughest conference EVER) was MUCH less talented than that group.
That's why.
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Well first of all, under Crean... Wes probably doesn't have as good of year and DJ doesn't turn into a PG and buy into the team philosophy.
Why do you say that? Almost every senior under Crean had awesome years. Steve Novak's senior year made him a NBA player. He was not a NBA player before his senior year. Travis Diener became a NBA player as a result of his senior year. This is what seniors do, they play like seniors. I suspect Wes would have had a terrific senior season last year....as good, who knows.
What I'm interested in is understanding what games we would have lost as a result of the previous regime coaching. I'm sorry, but I don't see any differences. EVERY one of our wins last year with the exception of two were by at least 5 points and most by double digits. The two that weren't were the Wisconsin game and NC State game. Now, perhaps Lenny is going to argue that we would have lost that Wisconsin game.....which would be interesting since we won at Madison the year prior.
Go line by line of the games we won and lost last year, I don't know how any reasonable person can say, "Yeah, that game there that we won we would have lost instead" without it being heavily doused in bias and hatred and not one iota of historical fact.
Lenny is right in his stats about the overall record, the NITs, etc, of course that also includes the first two years which were rebuilding years but he knows that.
Last Year's Results Game By Game
http://kenpom.com/team.php?y=2009&team=Marquette
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..."almost every senior under Crean had awesome years"......
Townsend, Merrit, Grimm, Chapman, Lott, Kinsella, MJax,
Hmmmm. The only players who had good senior years under Crean who played here 4 years are Henry, Novak and Diener (cut short). And about that list of players who left rather than finish their career under Crean. Bradley, Mason, Menard, Howard, Odartey, Matthews, Christian, Bell, Amo, Mort. Hmmmm, again. I liked Crean. I don't suffer unnatural man-love for Crean.
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If Crean had been here last year, I don't think DJ is. Remember, Taylor has already committed with an "understanding" feed to him by Crean that DJ would be gone/would not be returning for his senior year.
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If Crean had been here last year, I don't think DJ is. Remember, Taylor has already committed with an "understanding" feed to him by Crean that DJ would be gone/would not be returning for his senior year.
No.
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If Crean had been here last year, I don't think DJ is. Remember, Taylor has already committed with an "understanding" feed to him by Crean that DJ would be gone/would not be returning for his senior year.
What? Where was James going to go? The guy was never an NBA talent.
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Regarding Novak and Diener having successful senior years, they didn't have 2 other 4 year starters with them on the same team like Matthews would have. Novak had the 3 amigos but they were freshman, the only other senior I can really think of is Chapman and Grimm. Diener had Marcus Jackson and Townsend, but I wouldn't put those two near the level of a James and McNeal. Novak was a junior on that team and played a big role, however it was Diener's team and I don't think there was much doubt about that. I think to use Diener and Novak as proof Matthews would have followed that succession is wrong. These two were easily the number one options on those teams, I don't know if Crean were still there Matthews would have been above 4 with DJ, Mcneal, and Lazar all possibly ahead of them.
As far as Taylor, I though Hurley said in an interview when he was asking for the release that they were being told James would not be around the next year. Obviously we have to take it with a grain of salt based on Hurley's agenda at the time, but I'm sure I read he said that somewhere.
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Cheebs that's what I remember also, which is why I threw it out there.
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Crean accomplished a similar start once in 9 years and that was in a WAY weaker conference. All he needed to do it was 2 outstanding bigs (Jackson and Merritt), 2 NBA players (Diener and Novak) and the 3rd greatest player in the world (Wade). Last year's team (playing in what some called the toughest conference EVER) was MUCH less talented than that group.
That's why.
So you are comparing the program Crean walked into with the one Buzz was with for a year then inherited? And your comparison is that since Crean's first team was in a weaker conference, he should have had the success of Buzz's first year?
You don't think Crean's foundation has anything to do with the recruits Buzz was able to get to MU? You think that Crean's recruiting represents "all he needed to do" but not success in and of itself to get NBA talent to mke?
I honestly don't even understand what you are trying to say.
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Wes himself thanked Buzz for "unleashing" him for his senior year. Ask Wes under whose coaching he played better.
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Wes himself thanked Buzz for "unleashing" him for his senior year. Ask Wes under whose coaching he played better.
Absolutely true.
But, does that mean that MU would have been measurably worse if TC had been the coach last season?
As Sugar pointed out (with some statistical assumptions to support it), it's reasonable to think MU would have been about the same. Maybe a little better, maybe a little worse.
I don't think anybody can definitely say one way or the other.
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Absolutely true.
But, does that mean that MU would have been measurably worse if TC had been the coach last season?
As Sugar pointed out (with some statistical assumptions to support it), it's reasonable to think MU would have been about the same. Maybe a little better, maybe a little worse.
I don't think anybody can definitely say one way or the other.
Ah another one of those "nobody can be sure of anything" arguments you love so much ;)
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Wes himself thanked Buzz for "unleashing" him for his senior year. Ask Wes under whose coaching he played better.
Again, Wes got better by the same amount almost every year.
Wes went from using twelve possessions/game his soph year and ten possessions/game his junior year to fourteen possessions a game his senior year.
UNLEASHED!
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If the question is "would MU have been measurably worse if TC had been the coach last season", you really have to just compare the 08-09 season up until James went out. Until that happened, I'd say they were comparable. Crean left us a great team and Buzz kept them playing well.
But the 08-09 team was built around James. What would Crean have done with James going out? Buzz not only kept the team afloat, he got us past the first round of the dance and we very nearly made it to the Sweet 16. Give him credit for that.
No one expected anything from us this year and look where we are. I can't speak to how the team would be doing under Crean. All I know is Buzz has this particular group of guys playing harder than my wildest dreams. This year we're saying things like "the offense isn't executing as well with Acker out". Doesn't that say it all?
@Henry Sugar - Wes did get better every year, but I interpret his remark about being unleashed as him saying he didn't feel like he was playing to his highest potential. (and if that was the case, at least he didn't Maymon out on us...)
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If the question is "would MU have been measurably worse if TC had been the coach last season", you really have to just compare the 08-09 season up until James went out. Until that happened, I'd say they were comparable. Crean left us a great team and Buzz kept them playing well.
Agree.
But the 08-09 team was built around James. What would Crean have done with James going out? Buzz not only kept the team afloat, he got us past the first round of the dance and we very nearly made it to the Sweet 16. Give him credit for that.
I love the job Buzz did last year, I'm just not so sure that TC couldn't have gotten them to a similar place, even with James getting hurt. For me, there's just not enough evidence, but that's just me I guess.
No one expected anything from us this year and look where we are. I can't speak to how the team would be doing under Crean. All I know is Buzz has this particular group of guys playing harder than my wildest dreams. This year we're saying things like "the offense isn't executing as well with Acker out". Doesn't that say it all?
Agree wholeheartedly, but we're not talking about this year's team.
@Henry Sugar - Wes did get better every year, but I interpret his remark about being unleashed as him saying he didn't feel like he was playing to his highest potential. (and if that was the case, at least he didn't Maymon out on us...)
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Ah another one of those "nobody can be sure of anything" arguments you love so much ;)
Yea yea yea... I know you hate my "middle ground" stance. ;)
I'm not trying to be a wet blanket on the wild speculation of how Buzz taught MU how to win, I'm just trying to offer some perspective.
I really like Buzz, but let's not get ahead of ourselves and retroactively give him all of the credit for everything that happened in the program the past 2 seasons.
If we are going to start giving him that much credit, then we probably need to increase the amount of blame for the current makeup of the roster. He was a key recruiter for MU for the past 3 years. Doesn't he deserve some criticism for the current roster, or does that just fall under "TC is a douche"?*
The truth is, Buzz deserves some credit, and some criticism. I'm not sure he deserves the amount of credit that some people are bestowing upon him... But, I guess it's all conjecture...
*Edit, I don't blame Buzz for the current roster make-up, I'm simply pointing out that you can't give him that much credit (for helping MU improve) without giving him more blame (McNeal still turned the ball over, MU still doesn't have a real big man, etc. etc.)
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So you are comparing the program Crean walked into with the one Buzz was with for a year then inherited? And your comparison is that since Crean's first team was in a weaker conference, he should have had the success of Buzz's first year?
You don't think Crean's foundation has anything to do with the recruits Buzz was able to get to MU? You think that Crean's recruiting represents "all he needed to do" but not success in and of itself to get NBA talent to mke?
I honestly don't even understand what you are trying to say.
Nothing you say in your first two paragraphs has anything remotely to do with what I was saying.
Let me try to explain what I was saying. The question I was addressing was: Who is better at COACHING the game of basketball -Tom Crean or Buzz Williams? Nothing about inheritance, foundations or recruiting.
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Absolutely true.
But, does that mean that MU would have been measurably worse if TC had been the coach last season?
As Sugar pointed out (with some statistical assumptions to support it), it's reasonable to think MU would have been about the same. Maybe a little better, maybe a little worse.
I don't think anybody can definitely say one way or the other.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it does it make a sound? What is the sound of one hand clapping? You seem like a really nice guy, but I would hate to be stuck behind you waiting to vote on election day.
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If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it does it make a sound? What is the sound of one hand clapping? You seem like a really nice guy, but I would hate to be stuck behind you waiting to vote on election day.
LOL
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If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it does it make a sound? What is the sound of one hand clapping? You seem like a really nice guy, but I would hate to be stuck behind you waiting to vote on election day.
Touche.
Sorry for being the wet blanket on this one.
I guess I just don't see this as black and white as some others do.
I hope you are right about Buzz. For me, the jury is still out. TC might have been a douche, but his numbers are the second best in MU's history. I hope Buzz is better than that.
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Tom Crean had a .664 winning pct. at MU. In 9 years he went to 5 NCAA's and 3 NIT's. He was 7-8 in postseason and advanced past the 1st round in the NCAA tournament once. I don't know if Buzz will ever make the final 4 (Wade was a once in a lifetime perfect storm scenario) but I do believe his record will prove superior to Crean's in every other measurable way.
Crean accomplished a similar start once in 9 years and that was in a WAY weaker conference. All he needed to do it was 2 outstanding bigs (Jackson and Merritt), 2 NBA players (Diener and Novak) and the 3rd greatest player in the world (Wade). Last year's team (playing in what some called the toughest conference EVER) was MUCH less talented than that group.
But all of your evidence cites records and results. The things I falsely read into your post have to be included when you cite win/loss records and postseason appearances as evidence of who is a better basketball coach. The fact that Buzz had a great year with TC's guys last year doesn't come close to lending itself to the notion that Buzz is a better coach. College sports is riddled with these examples. Charlie Weis' first year at ND with Ty Willingham's guys comes immediately to mind.
The main point is that you cannot draw a line between TC's coaching and Buzz's results last year. Wes: sure he unleashed him more, but no mention of how TC helped Wes get over his injuries and focused on his developing an outside shot? Do you remember Wes' foot speed his first two seasons? Dom: PG is the hardest position to learn (and not that John Wall play the point like a 2 guard stuff) The things that everyone is lauding Buzz for in Dom's game last year didn't suddenly show up when Buzz came on the scene. That development was three years in the making. At the end of the day, Buzz's overachieving last year was based on the fact people thought the team would do worse because of Buzz - not due to the team he inherited.
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Why do you say that? Almost every senior under Crean had awesome years. Steve Novak's senior year made him a NBA player. He was not a NBA player before his senior year. Travis Diener became a NBA player as a result of his senior year. This is what seniors do, they play like seniors. I suspect Wes would have had a terrific senior season last year....as good, who knows.
What I'm interested in is understanding what games we would have lost as a result of the previous regime coaching. I'm sorry, but I don't see any differences. EVERY one of our wins last year with the exception of two were by at least 5 points and most by double digits. The two that weren't were the Wisconsin game and NC State game. Now, perhaps Lenny is going to argue that we would have lost that Wisconsin game.....which would be interesting since we won at Madison the year prior.
Go line by line of the games we won and lost last year, I don't know how any reasonable person can say, "Yeah, that game there that we won we would have lost instead" without it being heavily doused in bias and hatred and not one iota of historical fact.
Lenny is right in his stats about the overall record, the NITs, etc, of course that also includes the first two years which were rebuilding years but he knows that.
Last Year's Results Game By Game
http://kenpom.com/team.php?y=2009&team=Marquette
Surely you know that when you change a variable as important as a leader the entire equation is altered. To suggest that looking at final scores of games played can determine probable outcomes under such different conditions is ridiculous.
TC was indeed in a rebuiding process his first two seasons at MU. Much like Buzz is this year. But Chicos knows that.
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saying this year is a rebuilding year similar to TC's early years is near blasphemy.
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What a stupid, idiotic conversation... that I am delighted to join.
The year before Buzz took over, the team was ranked the entire year. They reached as high as #10 (mostly early in the season) and spent the latter part of the season ranked in the twenties.
#1 - it's not that crazy to think that the team could have been better and ranked just as high the following season when all three players were seniors.
The year before Buzz took over, the team was better statistically than they were when Buzz was coach. 2008 overall ranking (#11). 2009 overall ranking (#19). Also, the team was a lot better defensively the year before Buzz was coach (#10 in 2008; #51 in 2009). They were, however, better offensively under Buzz (#24 in 2008; #9 in 2009)
#2 - In some measures, the team got worse under Buzz than they were under Crean. In some measures, they got better.
Here are Matthew's efficiencies from his Freshman year through his Senior Year. (99.1, 106.1, 111.2, 116.8). Anyone else notice a trend? The key difference, however, is the increase in possessions under Buzz (22.5%, 22.2%, 20.1%, 24.7%). Of course, Matthews was still getting plenty of possessions under Crean too.
#3 - Matthews would have still gotten better by the same amount, but the difference is that Buzz used him more.
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Now, lest I be accused of being a Crean lover or a Crean hater or a Crean anything, my point is that the team was pretty good the year before their senior season, so it's not crazy to think that Matthews would have still been good and that team would have still done good things. The team would have just looked different with most likely equivalent results.
Also, I like Buzz more than Crean.
Solid post...thank you
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..."almost every senior under Crean had awesome years"......
Townsend, Merrit, Grimm, Chapman, Lott, Kinsella, MJax,
Hmmmm. The only players who had good senior years under Crean who played here 4 years are Henry, Novak and Diener (cut short). And about that list of players who left rather than finish their career under Crean. Bradley, Mason, Menard, Howard, Odartey, Matthews, Christian, Bell, Amo, Mort. Hmmmm, again. I liked Crean. I don't suffer unnatural man-love for Crean.
No one here suffers from unnatural man-love for Crean, though there are a few posters here that I think get the Viagra out for our current coach at times.
That's why I said almost. Do you think Grimm was a poorer basketball player as a Senior than his first three years? Chapman? Townsend? I don't. They were smarter, more skilled, etc. But their roles changed. You can't just base it on stats. They had other players younger that were vying for their jobs and their roles, minutes, etc, changed. Merritt, he was injured and never fully recovered. Look, not everyone is going to improve which is why I said almost, but MOST seniors are better as Seniors than they are years prior. Wes would have been no exception.
I disagree with your "only players" comment were Henry, Novak and Diener, but perhaps that's because you used the 4 year criteria. Dwyane Wade was certainly better when he left than when he came. Jackson had an All CUSA Senior Year...he was so unnoticeable down south that Estill from Kentucky said he had never heard of him.
Since DJ's stats were down last year, does that mean Buzz made him regress? I mean, that's essentially the argument you and others are making. Since from a "stats" perspective, some of those other players you mentioned didn't do as well so it must have been the coaching. Well, by that logic, Buzz must have caused DJ to regress then, especially FT shooting? ;) Of course, I don't believe that for a second but I'm just applying the same logic.
At the end of the day, if someone can look at our wins and losses last year and tell me that we wouldn't have won the same number of games, I'd like to know which ones and bring a coherent argument to back that up.
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So you are comparing the program Crean walked into with the one Buzz was with for a year then inherited? And your comparison is that since Crean's first team was in a weaker conference, he should have had the success of Buzz's first year?
You don't think Crean's foundation has anything to do with the recruits Buzz was able to get to MU? You think that Crean's recruiting represents "all he needed to do" but not success in and of itself to get NBA talent to mke?
I honestly don't even understand what you are trying to say.
I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees that. To compare the two considering the baseline jump off point is ridiculous.
But it's a tired argument. I'm glad TC, as horrible a recruiter and coach as he was, left us with Lazar, Wes, McNeal, James, etc so a true coach could take them where they could not have gone. I'm even more excited, per Lenny, that since our current coach is better at coaching and a better recruiter, we are going to kick some A S S in the next decade even more so than we did. And for that, I'm a very happy Marquette University basketball fan!!
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What a stupid, idiotic conversation... that I am delighted to join.
The year before Buzz took over, the team was ranked the entire year. They reached as high as #10 (mostly early in the season) and spent the latter part of the season ranked in the twenties.
#1 - it's not that crazy to think that the team could have been better and ranked just as high the following season when all three players were seniors.
The year before Buzz took over, the team was better statistically than they were when Buzz was coach. 2008 overall ranking (#11). 2009 overall ranking (#19). Also, the team was a lot better defensively the year before Buzz was coach (#10 in 2008; #51 in 2009). They were, however, better offensively under Buzz (#24 in 2008; #9 in 2009)
You may very well be right on your initial point, but as for the rest ... is it at all accurate to compare when the rosters were not the same? Crean's last team had Ooze and Fitzgerald playing a combined 34 mpg, and some PT out of Mbakwe at season's end. None great, impact players, but it gave the team some size they lacked last year. And Buzz really had nothing last year to replace them other than to give Lazar, Hazel and Burke more minutes in the post. Giving Lazar more minutes probably worked out in MU's favor ... but Ooze + Fitz >> Burke + Hazel.
Then there's the small matter of Dominic James' injury.
#2 - In some measures, the team got worse under Buzz than they were under Crean. In some measures, they got better.
See above
I'm not really arguing whether Crean could have done better or worse ... I just don't think one can compare the numbers of the 2007-08 team with those of last year's team and say the team got better or worse.
It wasn't the same team.
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You may very well be right on your initial point, but as for the rest ... is it at all accurate to compare when the rosters were not the same?
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I'm not really arguing whether Crean could have done better or worse ... I just don't think one can compare the numbers of the 2007-08 team with those of last year's team and say the team got better or worse.
It wasn't the same team.
The majority of possessions in 2008 were still consumed by James, McNeal, Matthews, Hayward, and then even Acker. There were a lot of constants between the two teams.
The original statement I was responding to was
Last year's team was 23-4, 12-2 in Big East play and #8 in the polls when DJ went down. Numbers only reached once during Crean's tenure - the final 4 team. Do I think TC could have done that with last year's group? No chance.
I believe that the team could achieved similar results, because the team, returning a tremendous amount of experience, was still good the year before.
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The majority of possessions in 2008 were still consumed by James, McNeal, Matthews, Hayward, and then even Acker. There were a lot of constants between the two teams.
Fine, but what does the majority of possessions have to do with the defensive numbers you cite?
And wouldn't it be correct to assume that the efficiency of those possessions is influenced by, if not somewhat dependent upon, who else is on the court when those possessions occurred? I'm not a numbers guru, but would it not stand to reason that, for example, Mo Williams possessions are going to be more efficient with LeBron James on court alongside him rather than Jamario Moon?
(note: obviously not saying Ooze is LeBron to Burke's Moon, just tossing out an extreme example)
Yes, there were plenty of constants, but it still wasn't the same team.
I believe that the team could achieved similar results, because the team, returning a tremendous amount of experience, was still good the year before.
As I said, you may very well be correct. Probably are correct. But it's really just speculation, either way, and it's not accurate to compare last year's figures with that of the previous year's team because the on-court situations were, while similar, not quite comprable.
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Wes himself thanked Buzz for "unleashing" him for his senior year. Ask Wes under whose coaching he played better.
Yup, no question about it (though he also elaborated on that comment about a week later in the press). Different system, different role, he was able to freelance more.
I'd still like to know what games we won last year that we wouldn't have under the previous regime.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees that. To compare the two considering the baseline jump off point is ridiculous.
But it's a tired argument. I'm glad TC, as horrible a recruiter and coach as he was, left us with Lazar, Wes, McNeal, James, etc so a true coach could take them where they could not have gone. I'm even more excited, per Lenny, that since our current coach is better at coaching and a better recruiter, we are going to kick some A S S in the next decade even more so than we did. And for that, I'm a very happy Marquette University basketball fan!!
Let's recap. We're both glad that TC left us and we're excited about our current coach. Since he is better at both coaching and recruiting we anticipate success even though he doesn't get to play in the minor leagues the first six years like TC did. We're rebuilding this year and next due to the previous regime but after that it will be seashells and ballons. Life is so much more pleasant when we agree.
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Let's recap. We're both glad that TC left us and we're excited about our current coach. Since he is better at both coaching and recruiting we anticipate sucess even though he doesn't get to play in the minor leagues the first six years like TC did. We're rebuiding this year and next due to the previous regime but after that it will be seahells and ballons. Life is so much more pleasant when we agree.
Man, did you just go to the Hayward school of spelling in that paragraph? LOL. Sucess, rebuiding, seahells (I love the seahells), ballons, etc. You sure you aren't Hayward in disguise?
I'll pass my judgment in a few more years on Buzz. He's done well with Crean's players. We'll disagree on whether Crean would have accomplished the same last year. I've given everyone a link to the results but I haven't seen anyone say GAME Y we would not have won. I don't see any there that we would not have won last year under the previous regime. Perhaps I missed it.
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. I've given everyone a link to the results but I haven't seen anyone say GAME Y we would not have won. I don't see any there that we would not have won last year under the previous regime. Perhaps I missed it.
That's a good point because Crean would have played basically the same lineups except Tyshawn Taylor would have had Jimmy's minutes and maybe Cubillan and Acker would have played more. Maybe we beat Dayton in the beginning of the year since the players would not have been adjusting to a new situation. I don't know if Crean would have put Acker on McAlernary (sp?) in the ND game. That was a difference maker.
The only objective difference is would you rather have Tyshawn Taylor or Jimmy Butler? I really don't know the answer to that, but I am happy to have a player with a little more size and I like Jimmy. Maybe I would say the same thing about Taylor. Who knows.
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wow, and not one mention about the name change to Golden Eagles, or bringing back the Warriors. Oh, I forgot, both Buzz and Crean coached the Golden Eagles.
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Partly my fault but we got way off topic on this thread.
The whole point of my post was to say if you think Buzz was a good hire, tell Father Wild!
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Partly my fault but we got way off topic on this thread.
The whole point of my post was to stay if you think Buzz was a good hire, tell Father Wild!
Do you think buzz was a good hire would be a very lopsided poll.
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Man, did you just go to the Hayward school of spelling in that paragraph? LOL. Sucess, rebuiding, seahells (I love the seahells), ballons, etc. You sure you aren't Hayward in disguise?
I'll pass my judgment in a few more years on Buzz. He's done well with Crean's players. We'll disagree on whether Crean would have accomplished the same last year. I've given everyone a link to the results but I haven't seen anyone say GAME Y we would not have won. I don't see any there that we would not have won last year under the previous regime. Perhaps I missed it.
Nobody has responded because that's one of the stupidest arguements I have ever seen anybody try to make. How in the hell could you possibly think that MU would have played almost exactly the same in every game? Would they have played better or worse or about the same? Who knows? But to try to go through a schedule game by game and then ask what would have been different under a differenct coach (style, system, player rotation, strategy...etc.) is simply asinine. Your "comparison" could not be less logical. There are far, far too many variables to compare Buzz to TC on a game by game basis.
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Yup, no question about it (though he also elaborated on that comment about a week later in the press). Different system, different role, he was able to freelance more.
I'd still like to know what games we won last year that we wouldn't have under the previous regime.
Since Wes is a starting guard on a Jerry Sloan coached 36-19 NBA team and DJ and Jerel are toiling in obscurity in God knows where do you think it's safe to say that Buzz was correct in "unleashing" Wes? Conversely, think maybe TC missed the boat by making him the proverbial third wheel? Just sayin.
Regarding last year's games TC would have lost, saying that there are none because we won most of our games handily ain't necessarily so. We turned several tight games into seemingly comfortable victories with great stretch play last year - not exactly a common occurance under the previous regime. Add that to the fact that changing one variable changes the entire equation(as jmayer1 points out so well). So I can't tell you which games. Maybe we beat Dayton and S Florida but lose to Villanova (H), at Georgetown, at Providence and at NC State. All I know is based on TC's past history 23-4, 12-2 and #8 with that level of talent was, to say the least, unlikely. You must have thought so too as you had this group at 9-9 and they were 12-2 when DJ went down.
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Wondering what the team would do last year under a different coach is futile. I do know that Buzz has yet to have a team quit on him. He's yet to lose a game by 47 points. He's yet to give a non-English speaking Israeli a scholarship -- sight unseen. He's yet to whiff on a JUCO and, when left with an open schollie, hand it to the guy's unrecruited teammate. He's yet to have 100 percent assistant coaching turnover two years in a row and he's yet to lose an entire recruiting class to transfer. He's yet to brag to the media about how much a useless training chamber costs and yet to ride into Midnight Madness on an ATV and wearing a JUDO suit. As far as I know, his wife has yet to berate Bradley Center employees about the food selection in the "green room." He's yet to demand a six figure salary for his father-in-law. He's yet to befriend local "celebrities" and have them sit along the baseline. He's yet to appear in the Brewers clubhouse and squirm his way into a story about the Brewers starting pitcher. He's yet to hold a "significant" press conference to announce a donation to a Marquette athletic project which is nominal compared to donations made by anonymous donors the same week. He's yet to unretire the number of a Marquette legend one year after orchestrating his ouster from the radio booth.
Oh...and he's yet to have a basketball camp and give every camper award to his own son.
So...Father Wild, if you're reading, this let me be one of the first to congratulate you on an inspired hire!!!
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Poetry in motion, Bro.
Buzz hasn't tried to shove Marquette Gold down our throats or tried to hang useless, self-serving banners from the rafters, or even had the media throw his name in the ring for countless other gigs.
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Wondering what the team would do last year under a different coach is futile. I do know that Buzz has yet to have a team quit on him. He's yet to lose a game by 47 points. He's yet to give a non-English speaking Israeli a scholarship -- sight unseen. He's yet to whiff on a JUCO and, when left with an open schollie, hand it to the guy's unrecruited teammate. He's yet to have 100 percent assistant coaching turnover two years in a row and he's yet to lose an entire recruiting class to transfer. He's yet to brag to the media about how much a useless training chamber costs and yet to ride into Midnight Madness on an ATV and wearing a JUDO suit. As far as I know, his wife has yet to berate Bradley Center employees about the food selection in the "green room." He's yet to demand a six figure salary for his father-in-law. He's yet to befriend local "celebrities" and have them sit along the baseline. He's yet to appear in the Brewers clubhouse and squirm his way into a story about the Brewers starting pitcher. He's yet to hold a "significant" press conference to announce a donation to a Marquette athletic project which is nominal compared to donations made by anonymous donors the same week. He's yet to unretire the number of a Marquette legend one year after orchestrating his ouster from the radio booth.
Oh...and he's yet to have a basketball camp and give every camper award to his own son.
So...Father Wild, if you're reading, this let me be one of the first to congratulate you on an inspired hire!!!
+1 - I think this post effectively ended all other posts trying to defend Tom Crean. bottom line..NOBODY expected this years team to be in the NCAA..nobody. Furthermore, take away DJO and Jimmy - Buzz guys..and this team isn't close to a NCAA bi. The fact we are competing with Mo Acker and David Cubiallan as starters, at 5'7" and 5'10" in the Big East and being successful is a testament to coach Buzz. Thanks Crean for what you did, but the best thing you will have done for MU basketball is have left for Indiana, but added Buzzx Williams to your staff before doing so. Thank you very much.
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Partly my fault but we got way off topic on this thread.
The whole point of my post was to say if you think Buzz was a good hire, tell Father Wild!
I'm ready to do that....in 3 more years. ;D If we maintain where we have been (or vault to unprecedented heights based on Lenny's comments since he's a better coach and better recruiter), then I'll send a telegram...hell, I'll send a candygram.
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Nobody has responded because that's one of the stupidest arguements I have ever seen anybody try to make. How in the hell could you possibly think that MU would have played almost exactly the same in every game? Would they have played better or worse or about the same? Who knows? But to try to go through a schedule game by game and then ask what would have been different under a differenct coach (style, system, player rotation, strategy...etc.) is simply asinine. Your "comparison" could not be less logical. There are far, far too many variables to compare Buzz to TC on a game by game basis.
Well jmayer, I agree that every game is different but are you really telling me that a coach that won 24 and 25 games the previous two years would not have equaled the 25 games that Buzz won last year?
Sorry, but I'm calling B.S. on that one. That's why I listed the games....which games would we have lost? Or if you think that's too hard since every game is different, then let's go with an aggregate argument. We won 24 and 25 games the two previous years with the Big 3 as Sophomores and Juniors, are you really telling me that same coach and staff couldn't get 25 wins again with them as Seniors?
Please
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+1 - I think this post effectively ended all other posts trying to defend Tom Crean. bottom line..NOBODY expected this years team to be in the NCAA..nobody. Furthermore, take away DJO and Jimmy - Buzz guys..and this team isn't close to a NCAA bi. The fact we are competing with Mo Acker and David Cubiallan as starters, at 5'7" and 5'10" in the Big East and being successful is a testament to coach Buzz. Thanks Crean for what you did, but the best thing you will have done for MU basketball is have left for Indiana, but added Buzzx Williams to your staff before doing so. Thank you very much.
Correct, no one did and he's done a great job. On the other hand, no one expected the ACC to have 1 team ranked in the top 25 going into the last week of February. No one expected the Pac Ten to be sending one team to the NCAA tournament. Etc, etc.
We have picked the perfect year to be an above average team (but not a great or even very good team) because no way in hell this team makes the NCAAs practically any other year. College hoops is pretty bad this year and we have benefited greatly. I'm not complaining, works out great for us, but let's be realistic, too, that the demise of teams around the country has made this the softest bubble perhaps in a decade or more.
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I'm ready to do that....in 3 more years. ;D If we maintain where we have been (or vault to unprecedented heights based on Lenny's comments since he's a better coach and better recruiter), then I'll send a telegram...hell, I'll send a candygram.
Never said unprecedented heights as Al will always be the gold standard. I do predict Buzz will have a better record than TC at MU.