In the Jae Crowder thread, that discussion has devolved into what bigs were still available for MU to sign in the late signing period this year (and last year). Obviously, many of us can obsess about wanting to sign a Big, but when you think about it - Where would this year's team be if Buzz signed a big last spring, instead of DJO?
From all data presented, 1 player put up good numbers (Derrick Williams - Arizona - averages 27 minutes, 15 points a game and 7 rebounds) the other 14 "bigs" signed in last year's spring signing period are averging approximately 13 minutes PT, 2.5 points per game and 2 rebounds per game.
Would we rather have a big like the above or DJO? Are we over-reacting to the need for a "big," when Otule will be back next year, and all of our guards are major size upgrades over this year's team?
Quote from: Ners on February 18, 2010, 10:00:00 AM
In the Jae Crowder thread, that discussion has devolved into what bigs were still available for MU to sign in the late signing period this year (and last year). Obviously, many of us can obsess about wanting to sign a Big, but when you think about it - Where would this year's team be if Buzz signed a big last spring, instead of DJO?
From all data presented, 1 player put up good numbers (Derrick Williams - Arizona - averages 27 minutes, 15 points a game and 7 rebounds) the other 14 "bigs" signed in last year's spring signing period are averging approximately 13 minutes PT, 2.5 points per game and 2 rebounds per game.
Would we rather have a big like the above or DJO? Are we over-reacting to the need for a "big," when Otule will be back next year, and all of our guards are major size upgrades over this year's team?
I do not believe Otule is a BE caliber center.
there are like 5 big east quality centers in the entire big east.
Quote from: 79Warrior on February 18, 2010, 10:01:56 AM
I do not believe Otule is a BE caliber center.
Disagree as he was coming on when he had his last injury. Buzz was planning to start Chris when he was hurt in November.
Quote from: Ners on February 18, 2010, 10:00:00 AM
In the Jae Crowder thread, that discussion has devolved into what bigs were still available for MU to sign in the late signing period this year (and last year). Obviously, many of us can obsess about wanting to sign a Big, but when you think about it - Where would this year's team be if Buzz signed a big last spring, instead of DJO?
From all data presented, 1 player put up good numbers (Derrick Williams - Arizona - averages 27 minutes, 15 points a game and 7 rebounds) the other 14 "bigs" signed in last year's spring signing period are averging approximately 13 minutes PT, 2.5 points per game and 2 rebounds per game.
Would we rather have a big like the above or DJO? Are we over-reacting to the need for a "big," when Otule will be back next year, and all of our guards are major size upgrades over this year's team?
hmm... that's a funky argument. Of course everyone would want a player that looks like a star in the making and the future. How about this. Would you rather have a Big or Fulce? What about even a Big or Buycks? I might want the big.
In college basketball, its very true that you play the best 5 players on your team. If its 4 G's and a F, then that's what you play. But I think everyone knows that to be truly elite (I am referring to maybe Kansas this year and the UConn's, Pitt's, and UNC's of last year) you need the ability to play a balanced attack on offense and defense. I stress "ability" in that you don't necessarily have to play that way but if the other team dares you to play that way, you can and you still win.
So, can we win with a small lineup dominated by guards? Yes. Will we be elite without a quality big? No. And I think that is what everyone wants. MU to be an elite team.
Quote from: 79Warrior on February 18, 2010, 10:01:56 AM
I do not believe Otule is a BE caliber center.
There has been a lot of talk of Mo not being a BE caliber PG...and that seems to be working out!
Quote from: Nukem2 on February 18, 2010, 10:05:17 AM
Disagree as he was coming on when he had his last injury. Buzz was planning to start Chris when he was hurt in November.
I do agree that Otule showed a TON of improvement at the beginning of this year. In fact I think he played very well in the Open Scrimmage, competed well against some of the Bucks in open gym, (according to Rosiak blogs) and put up decent numbers in MU's first two games. He may not ever qualify as an "elite" big man, but definitely think he can be serviceable, and evolve into an Ousmane Barro type player.
DJO is the man. A big would be great to have, but right now I'd much rather have DJO and his 12 pts/game. If anything he needs to shoot more.
Quote from: 79Warrior on February 18, 2010, 10:01:56 AM
I do not believe Otule is a BE caliber center.
How would you have felt about Amal McCasskill or Aaron Gray at similar stages of their college careers?
Obviously I'm not saying that Otule will (or won't) become a player similar to those, but it's impressive that based upon his 85 minutes played you already can tell he won't develop over the next three years.
Quote from: Pakuni on February 18, 2010, 10:33:43 AM
How would you have felt about Amal McCasskill or Aaron Gray at similar stages of their college careers?
Obviously I'm not saying that Otule will (or won't) become a player similar to those, but it's impressive that based upon his 85 minutes played you already can tell he won't develop over the next three years.
McIlvaine was not very skilled at all as a frosh, but he made an impact purely b/c of his size. I'd say he turned out ok in the end.
I wouldn't trade DJO for ANY other BEAST player.
"I would not trade DJO for any other BEAST player" i hope that is a joke... DJO is awesome, but there are many big east players i would rather have than DJO. Wesley Johnson, scottie renolds, luke harangody, dominique jones, Jeremy Hazell just to name a few.
Quote from: warriorsforever on February 18, 2010, 11:18:05 AM
"I would not trade DJO for any other BEAST player" i hope that is a joke... DJO is awesome, but there are many big east players i would rather have than DJO. Wesley Johnson, scottie renolds, luke harangody, dominique jones, Jeremy Hazell just to name a few.
I got this Hards...
Johnson: NBA next year
Reynolds: Graduating
Harangody: Injured, graduating and overrated
Dominque Jones: NBA or Eurpoe next year, and I would still take DJO
Hazell: One year of eligibility, compared to DJO's 2, and he might test the NBA waters too, and I would still take DJO
Any more?
Quote from: warriorsforever on February 18, 2010, 11:18:05 AM
"I would not trade DJO for any other BEAST player" i hope that is a joke... DJO is awesome, but there are many big east players i would rather have than DJO. Wesley Johnson, scottie renolds, luke harangody, dominique jones, Jeremy Hazell just to name a few.
All those guys may be better than DJO - OK, are better - but most, if not all, will be done playing college ball in a little more than a month. DJO should be around two more full seasons.
Certainly something to consider. I'm sure there still are some Big East underclassmen I'd seriously consider ahead of DJO, but if I had to choose today, I think I might take him above the names you mentioned.
Quote from: reinko on February 18, 2010, 11:25:09 AM
I got this Hards...
Johnson: NBA next year
Reynolds: Graduating
Harangody: Injured, graduating and overrated
Dominque Jones: NBA or Eurpoe next year, and I would still take DJO
Hazell: One year of eligibility, compared to DJO's 2, and he might test the NBA waters too, and I would still take DJO
Any more?
Your kidding right... look at his stats dude. No one is game planning DJO, if you don't game plan Gody, he will eat you alive.
Why would we have to trade DJO to get a big? Those aren't the alternatives. Last year we got DJO and a big, with Mbao. And we'll already have DJO going into next year.
The debate should really be whether we would rather have a 6th guard (Newbill) or a 3rd big-man project (which we didn't get).
Quote from: reinko on February 18, 2010, 11:25:09 AM
I got this Hards...
Johnson: NBA next year
Reynolds: Graduating
Harangody: Injured, graduating and overrated
Dominque Jones: NBA or Eurpoe next year, and I would still take DJO
Hazell: One year of eligibility, compared to DJO's 2, and he might test the NBA waters too, and I would still take DJO
Any more?
Ebanks, Rosario, Monroe... just to name a couple more
Quote from: ErickJD08 on February 18, 2010, 11:28:35 AM
Your kidding right... look at his stats dude. No one is game planning DJO, if you don't game plan Gody, he will eat you alive.
Nope, not kidding. Stats are one thing, but IMHO excellent players elevate their teams, and I don't think 'Gody does this. Teams allow him to get his, but that doesn't produce wins. People look, oh my God, he is averaging 21 and 8, he must be awesome, and BE Player of the Year. I disagree. Do you know what his career NCAA tourney record is? 1-2. And it will remain that because ND ain't going to the dance this year.
Quote from: ErickJD08 on February 18, 2010, 11:28:35 AM
Your kidding right... look at his stats dude. No one is game planning DJO, if you don't game plan Gody, he will eat you alive.
You are right, he did eat us alive last year. And we won.
Quote from: ErickJD08 on February 18, 2010, 11:32:38 AM
Ebanks, Rosario, Monroe... just to name a couple more
Give you Rosario, he is in the discussion.
Monroe: NBA next year
Ebanks: NBA next year
This is my argument, DJO for the remainder of this season and the next 2 years, or these guys for next 6 weeks. I take DJO for the next two years.
Edit: grammar
Quote from: reinko on February 18, 2010, 11:36:22 AM
Nope, not kidding. Stats are one thing, but IMHO excellent players elevate their teams, and I don't think 'Gody does this. Teams allow him to get his, but that doesn't produce wins. People look, oh my God, he is averaging 21 and 8, he must be awesome, and BE Player of the Year. I disagree. Do you know what his career NCAA tourney record is? 1-2. And it will remain that because ND ain't going to the dance this year.
What's the three amigos record in the tourney? While you don't think he elevates his team, they seem to have lost two straight without him. And he is averaging 24 points and 10 boards a game. That's pretty damn good. No one is proclaiming he is a first rounder or even the best player in the country. But to say he is overrated or that MU couldn't use him... I don't know what to say about that without being insulting.
Quote from: reinko on February 18, 2010, 11:38:45 AM
Give you Rosario, he is in the discussion.
Monroe: NBA next year
Ebanks: NBA next year
This is my argument, DJO for the remainder of this season and the next 2 years, or these guys for next 6 weeks. I take DJO for the next two years.
Edit: grammar
I don't think either will go... but that is where we can agree to disagree.
Quote from: Litehouse on February 18, 2010, 11:30:05 AM
Why would we have to trade DJO to get a big? Those aren't the alternatives. Last year we got DJO and a big, with Mbao. And we'll already have DJO going into next year.
The debate should really be whether we would rather have a 6th guard (Newbill) or a 3rd big-man project (which we didn't get).
This is a good point, Mbao was a late signee -we'll see how he turns out. My belief is that Buzz loved the way Mizzou played last year in the NCAA, and wants to have a lineup full of versatile players that can pass, dribble and shoot. He will likely rotate his 6 guards in 8 minute interals, apply full court pressure all 40 minutes of the game. I do think Newbill will turn out to be a very good player for MU - just basing it off of his coaches comments and the fact he plays in Philadelphia...got to be some good competition in that city.
I think DJO can develop into a top 5 big east guard, but when it comes down to it, it is a conference dominated by big me with the exception of villanova. I would trade DJO for luke harangody any day of the week. We havent had a solid big man since 2003 with robert jackson and we went to the final four that year. You need big men to win in the NCAA tournament and i would much rather have a dominant big man than a dominant guard.
I can't see taking Rosario over DJO. Quality over quantity any day of the week.
This and the other thread regarding late signing of bigs are both missing a huge point. When we signed DJO last year, we did not NEED bigs. We had Otule and McMorrow on campus with JMay and Roseboro coming. We needed guards more, as we were looking at having Cadougan, Buycks, Acker, and Cubi as our only guards. So we signed DJO. And then the death-spiral for our bigs started.
Quote from: ErickJD08 on February 18, 2010, 11:44:16 AM
I don't think either will go... but that is where we can agree to disagree.
Ebanks will go, and will be a first rounder.
And I stand by my statement that I wouldn't trade anyone else (unless I can have two Lazars :)) for the reasons these guys stated.
As for Harangody. The game plan for him is simple. Let him do his thing. Guard everyone else... and win.
Quote from: Ners on February 18, 2010, 12:38:53 PM
This is a good point, Mbao was a late signee -we'll see how he turns out. My belief is that Buzz loved the way Mizzou played last year in the NCAA, and wants to have a lineup full of versatile players that can pass, dribble and shoot. He will likely rotate his 6 guards in 8 minute interals, apply full court pressure all 40 minutes of the game. I do think Newbill will turn out to be a very good player for MU - just basing it off of his coaches comments and the fact he plays in Philadelphia...got to be some good competition in that city.
I think Newbill will turn out to be good too. I just think it's easier to find guards that can contribute right away than bigs. We essentially had a roster spot for next year that we don't need a major contribution from. I would have rather used that spot to get a big man and let him develop for 2 years until he's ready to contribute. While I think Newbill will be good, I think we could have found another comparable guard in the future that could contribute when we need him.
Now we'll be in the same position in a few years where we need to find a big that can come in and contribute right away, and as posters on this board have demonstrated repeatedly, those types of players are nearly impossible to find. We had a perfect opportunity to bring someone in, maybe even redshirt him, and develop him for the future when we needed him.
Quote from: Litehouse on February 18, 2010, 02:33:46 PM
I think Newbill will turn out to be good too. I just think it's easier to find guards than can contribute right away than bigs. We essentially had a roster spot for next year that we don't need a major contribution from. I would have rather used that spot to get a big man and let him develop for 2 years until he's ready to contribute. While I think Newbill will be good, I think we could have found another comparable guard in the future that could contribute when we need him.
Now we'll be in the same position in a few years where we need to find a big that can come in and contribute right away, and as posters on this board have demonstrated repeatedly, those types of players are nearly impossible to find. We had a perfect opportunity to bring someone in, maybe even redshirt him, and develop him for the future when we needed him.
Can't argue with this point. Well thought out. The only thing I'm going to counter with is that I do think Buzz will land a Top 100, maybe two Top 100 Bigs in the 2011 class. If he can get 2 of those guys, their upside will likely be higher than any of the marginal bigs available in this spring signing period - and their development may not take quite as long as the longer shot/project type bigs available now.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on February 18, 2010, 02:18:29 PM
Ebanks will go, and will be a first rounder.
And I stand by my statement that I wouldn't trade anyone else (unless I can have two Lazars :)) for the reasons these guys stated.
As for Harangody. The game plan for him is simple. Let him do his thing. Guard everyone else... and win.
OK dude, its fine that you don't like Gody. But we would be ranked if we swapped those players, hence, we would be a better team.
If Buzz can get a guy like that, then that would be great. I'm also not as concerned since Otule still has 3 more years left.
My concern continues to be his health / durability. Hope his body holds out. If so, I expect him to be a serviceable "big". You don't need to have a star at every position.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on February 18, 2010, 02:18:29 PM
Ebanks will go, and will be a first rounder.
And I stand by my statement that I wouldn't trade anyone else (unless I can have two Lazars :)) for the reasons these guys stated.
As for Harangody. The game plan for him is simple. Let him do his thing. Guard everyone else... and win.
To be fair, that's not necessarily a reflection on him, but rather a reflection on the rest of that team.
I HATE Gody, but he's an awesome college player.
Quote from: 79Warrior on February 18, 2010, 10:01:56 AM
I do not believe Otule is a BE caliber center.
He was a Crean big man recruit; 'nough said.