As much as I can't help but to be optimistic over what could be in store should Junior burn his redshirt this year, I think that a bigger impact on whether or not MU lands a NCAA bid rests with Joe Fulce.
It seems to me that Joe's production since JMay's departure is steadily rising. He has shown he can knock down jumpers from 15', he appears to have some rebounding smarts, and anyone taller than 6'5" who can play effectively is much needed to this team, especially with games coming up against "big" (both literally and figuratively) teams.
Junior has the potential to create, slash, and seems to have a nice "floater" that he can arc right over guys 6" taller than him (at least from what I've seen on the videos of him) that should play well in the BE. Obviously, having a PG who can slash and kick would be amazing for a team already leading the nation in 3PT%, but it's hard to think that he is going to be at 100% out of the gate.
Obviously, we won't know what Junior has this year until we see him on the floor (hopefully tomorrow). I'd like to see Jr. burn his redshirt (assuming he's ready) if nothing else, for purposes of gaining experience for next year; anything he can provide on top of that is gravy. I can't wait to see #5 check in at the table -- all signs point at this kid being a stud PG -- but I think that all else being equal, Joe is the key to putting this team over the top for an NCAA bid.
I agree with the assessment of Fulce. We need a dirty work guy inside so Hayward and Butler are a bit more free to do things.
Quote from: Badgerhater on January 19, 2010, 09:30:04 AM
I agree with the assessment of Fulce. We need a dirty work guy inside so Hayward and Butler are a bit more free to do things.
Right. Like the role Butler played last year. Don't necessarily look to create a shot, but be active, hit the boards and make the opponent defend you.
Depends on Cadougan's defense, imo. If he can man up better than our current pgs that would be a huge lift. It also depends on his court vision and assist proficiency.
I need to go back and look at the stats, but anecdotally JF seems to be developing nicely, and to me, seems to be having more of an impact on the game. He has been criticized ad nauseam for his defense, but to me gave some solid minutes down low against Prov. even though he gave up 50 lbs to some of the guys on the other side. Seems like the light may have switched-on a la JB from last year.
Joe fulces biggest issue is he is a classic tweener for how this particualr team is set up and forced to play. With the lack of a true big...ie that true power 4 or a true 5 we are forced to play there 4 and 5 with guys that can defend them. Thankfully Butler and HAyward are absolute warriors and have the strength, toughness and savvy to defend them.
Joe fulce not quite having their bulk toughness or skill is kind of the odd man out. He subs for them and gives his all he gets some rebounds no one else could get but alsoi gets beatand gets pushed around more than the other two. also while he shows flashes he is not as good offensively.
then he cannot really guard a college 3 which is in most cases a shooting guard. So he kind of gets caought in the middle. but i will agree the higher alevel he can play at for those 8-12 mintes the better we will be. just cannot see how he is going to take that step to the next level for us ala jimmy
This is a great trick question...it's both. If Fulce keeps steadily improving with his D and rebounding, and shows that ability to knock down shots (like @Nova) and/or get some cheap baskets, that will help us immensely. Cadougan coming back (hopefully at 3/4 or full speed) will help in that we've got a true PG on the floor, and another good perimeter athlete to match up with some of the games (I'm thinking Seton Hall and Louisville) where we will need some good ball handling vs. the press. A healthy Cadougan coming back will help our team a TON.
"the light may have switched on a la JB from last year"
This is why I am against JD playing. I don't think the light switch would turn on this year. Put him in practice and use him to make the other players better and for him to learn.
The sooner he starts playing, the sooner the bulb goes on. :)
Quote from: Badgerhater on January 19, 2010, 10:46:16 AM
"the light may have switched on a la JB from last year"
This is why I am against JD playing. I don't think the light switch would turn on this year. Put him in practice and use him to make the other players better and for him to learn.
should we have sat Dominic james and travis diener as freshman for the same reason??? you do realize Junior was more highly rated than either of them dont you? should we have redshirted wes matthews his fresman year after h e missed the ooc schedule? or Hayward? if aguy can play and help you for 15 or so games you play him. 4 years from now is an eternity in this game. Buzz might not be here, Junior might not be here , reggie smith and vander Blue miay or may not be here, etc etc. etc. make the ncaa tourney this year is one heck of alot easier to go sign some more studs this summer to keep the ball rolling, etc. etc. anyone that comepare this situation to Mbakwe is crazy...mbakwe came back in MARCH, junior is coming back in the middle of January!!
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on January 19, 2010, 10:55:34 AM
should we have sat Dominic james and travis diener as freshman for the same reason??? you do realize Junior was more highly rated than either of them dont you? should we have redshirted wes matthews his fresman year after h e missed the ooc schedule? or Hayward? if aguy can play and help you for 15 or so games you play him. 4 years from now is an eternity in this game. Buzz might not be here, Junior might not be here , reggie smith and vander Blue miay or may not be here, etc etc. etc. make the ncaa tourney this year is one heck of alot easier to go sign some more studs this summer to keep the ball rolling, etc. etc. anyone that comepare this situation to Mbakwe is crazy...mbakwe came back in MARCH, junior is coming back in the middle of January!!
+1. I completely agree with this. No one knows what MU basketball will look like five years from now. Live in the now...play Junior when he is ready.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on January 19, 2010, 10:55:34 AM
should we have sat Dominic james and travis diener as freshman for the same reason??? you do realize Junior was more highly rated than either of them dont you?
You do realize you're incorrect on that don't you? No matter how many time you keep saying it, the fact is both of them were rated higher.
Diener was rated #40.
James was rated #36
Cadougan was rated #47
Neither is the key since I don't think either will make enough of an impact to change the overall scenerio. The key to making the tournament is to continue to shoot the lights out. Our inside game, as well as the team defense is not likely to improve.
Funny choice of words there BMA please go find any where that i have said that before. Regardless of which particualr rankings you are referencing there are rankings also stating differently, which ones are corrct we will find out in ayear or two. Bottom line is DJ and Travis were ready to play on day 1 and wether JC is higher or lowere by a few spots he is ready too. (talent wise).
The reason I stated JC is more higly rated is not due to his over all ranking but due to his ranking within his position. I saw rankings that had him at the #5 PG and i do not ever recall travis or Dj being that high. Additonally, Junior was named MVP of a number of different big time tournaments and camps and i dont eve recall DJ or travis doing taht not to mention playing in international competions since the age of 14.
My point is JC is a big time talent and to use him as a practice player to "for him to learn" is freaking CRAZY. If junior is 75% or better the team and the player will be better off playing.
if he would be like DJ last year when he came back as far as simply not being there physically then he should stay redshirted
Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 19, 2010, 11:33:30 AM
Neither is the key since I don't think either will make enough of an impact to change the overall scenerio. The key to making the tournament is to continue to shoot the lights out. Our inside game, as well as the team defense is not likely to improve.
not sure i agree with you 4ever.....yes our offensive strength is to shoot but Junior potentially brings another weapon to the fight. Currently neither PG can dribble pentrate , as you know most of Cubi and Ackers passes are what i refer to as flat passes, ie non penetarting passes. The only one on our team with the vision to make the north south penetrating pass is Buycks , ala the Frozena pass against Prov. or the last pass to Butler against Nova. While Cubi and Acker have had decent assist number s they are all east west passes side-top-side passes. What junior brings to the table is the ability to break an ankle and dribble peneatrate and make a drive and force help for the dump off for a lazar or Jimmy dunk. We currently dont have that at all. or the dribble penetrate and kick out for the open three. if he is healthy enough he opens up our offense that much more.
additonally, if he is healthy he adds size and strentgh to our perimeter defense and potentially helps us cut down on our achillers heel heretofore which is opposing guard dribble peentartion.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on January 19, 2010, 11:38:30 AM
Funny choice of words there BMA please go find any where that i have said that before. Regardless of which particualr rankings you are referencing there are rankings also stating differently, which ones are corrct we will find out in ayear or two. Bottom line is DJ and Travis were ready to play on day 1 and wether JC is higher or lowere by a few spots he is ready too. (talent wise).
The reason I stated JC is more higly rated is not due to his over all ranking but due to his ranking within his position. I saw rankings that had him at the #5 PG and i do not ever recall travis or Dj being that high. Additonally, Junior was named MVP of a number of different big time tournaments and camps and i dont eve recall DJ or travis doing taht not to mention playing in international competions since the age of 14.
My point is JC is a big time talent and to use him as a practice player to "for him to learn" is freaking CRAZY. If junior is 75% or better the team and the player will be better off playing.
if he would be like DJ last year when he came back as far as simply not being there physically then he should stay redshirted
All BMA did was state, pretty clearly, that what you said was wrong. You said he was rated higher, he was not. Don't change the criteria because you were wrong.
Quote from: bma725 on January 19, 2010, 11:16:10 AM
You do realize you're incorrect on that don't you? No matter how many time you keep saying it, the fact is both of them were rated higher.
Diener was rated #40.
James was rated #36
Cadougan was rated #47
So glad I have him on ignore.
Also, to say someone is rated higher in one year than the next is completely pointless anyway. A kid graduating high school this year might be ranked 50th but if he was graduating a year earlier might be 80th (or 20th) depending on how strong each class of seniors are. To say a guy is ranked 35th in his senior class and is better than another kid ranked 40th from a different year is completely absurd, but not surprising considering who is making that argument. He obviously doesn't understand how rankings work.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on January 19, 2010, 11:38:30 AM
Funny choice of words there BMA please go find any where that i have said that before. Regardless of which particualr rankings you are referencing there are rankings also stating differently, which ones are corrct we will find out in ayear or two. Bottom line is DJ and Travis were ready to play on day 1 and wether JC is higher or lowere by a few spots he is ready too. (talent wise).
Umm no. There's no such thing as other rankings stating it differently, those are the composite RSCI rankings, not the rankings from any particular service.
Either way, comparing the individual rankings from one year to another is a pretty fruitless idea, because it ignores the fact that some years are seen as weak for a particular position as a whole. For example, 2009 was seen by nearly every analyst as a down year for point guards, in some cases it was seen as the worst year for point guards in quite awhile. There was one truly elite point guard in Wall, one good one in Gaddy, and then a bunch of guys that were hit or miss depending upon the day you saw them. So a guy that might be ranked highly in the 2009 class would not have been as high in another year because of a much deeper pool of talent in that class.
Quote from: muballer10 on January 19, 2010, 11:50:06 AM
All BMA did was state, pretty clearly, that what you said was wrong. You said he was rated higher, he was not. Don't change the criteria because you were wrong.
hey bozo i was not changing the criteria i used, nor did i really have aproblem with whatever ranking he chose. I think any one that follows recruiting know the three were all big time recruits. BMA could have used th nhoop scopp rnaking of a top 15 player if he wanted. either way no big deal at all. my issue was one poster implied he "needed to learn" and i correlated that to diener and Dj being ready on day 1.
my only issue with bma was he stated " No matter how many time you keep saying it, " where i sated I dont think i have. can you not read? dont be a douche with your first post.
Quote from: bma725 on January 19, 2010, 12:09:29 PM
Umm no. There's no such thing as other rankings stating it differently, those are the composite RSCI rankings, not the rankings from any particular service.
Either way, comparing the individual rankings from one year to another is a pretty fruitless idea, because it ignores the fact that some years are seen as weak for a particular position as a whole. For example, 2009 was seen by nearly every analyst as a down year for point guards, in some cases it was seen as the worst year for point guards in quite awhile. There was one truly elite point guard in Wall, one good one in Gaddy, and then a bunch of guys that were hit or miss depending upon the day you saw them. So a guy that might be ranked highly in the 2009 class would not have been as high in another year because of a much deeper pool of talent in that class.
BMA i am so happy for you that you are so deeply rooted in semantics. The entire point of my post was the fact that Junior does not "need to spend the next 2.5 months practicing only " so that he may learn". not only has he benn at every practice he is abig time recruit.
also, you called me out that i keep stating Junior was higher rated...why state that and then wehn i ask for that evidence completely avoid you accustaion...weak sauce.
DJ and Diener started their MU career against junk teams in the non-conference with some early season tournaments thrown in not when the BEAST was in full swing. Diener also was a backup to Cordell Henry in freshman year.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on January 19, 2010, 12:47:06 PM
BMA i am so happy for you that you are so deeply rooted in semantics. The entire point of my post was the fact that Junior does not "need to spend the next 2.5 months practicing only " so that he may learn". not only has he benn at every practice he is abig time recruit.
also, you called me out that i keep stating Junior was higher rated...why state that and then wehn i ask for that evidence completely avoid you accustaion...weak sauce.
Here is the thing, you need to be more selective with what you say. A lot of people think and then post. You seem to react. I agree with a lot of what you say, but sometimes, you just blurt out crap and get called on it... and then you call someone a douche for proving you wrong. Yet you do the same thing when you nail someone on facts.
If you meant to say:
QuoteThe entire point of my post was the fact that Junior does not "need to spend the next 2.5 months practicing only " so that he may learn". not only has he benn at every practice he is abig time recruit.
then that is what you should have said.
Just sayin'
Who cares if he's 6 spots higher or lower than DJ was?
It's funny that everyone is arguing with hayward about semantics when the entire premise of the post was completely moronic.
Dj wasn't coming off a major injury (which often requires 16 months to fully recoup) and had the entire ooc to prepare for big east play. How does "should we have sat Dominic james and travis diener as freshman for the same reason???" make any sense?
It's not at all for the same reason. No one would be saying that he should take a red shirt if he would have been healthy. Also i can't remember about hayward, but Wes didn't miss the ooc schedule. I remember he stunk it up against madison so he was active in mid-december.
That said, i agree that he should play if he can help us win even 1 game this year.
ps. "???" = obnoxious
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on January 19, 2010, 12:51:15 PM
Here is the thing, you need to be more selective with what you say. A lot of people think and then post. You seem to react. I agree with a lot of what you say, but sometimes, you just blurt out crap and get called on it... and then you call someone a douche for proving you wrong. Yet you do the same thing when you nail someone on facts.
If you meant to say:
then that is what you should have said.
Just sayin'
+1...it's either that or trying to start an arguement with Chicos....it's just getting old now.
Quote from: bma725 on January 19, 2010, 12:09:29 PM
Umm no. There's no such thing as other rankings stating it differently, those are the composite RSCI rankings, not the rankings from any particular service.
Either way, comparing the individual rankings from one year to another is a pretty fruitless idea, because it ignores the fact that some years are seen as weak for a particular position as a whole. For example, 2009 was seen by nearly every analyst as a down year for point guards, in some cases it was seen as the worst year for point guards in quite awhile. There was one truly elite point guard in Wall, one good one in Gaddy, and then a bunch of guys that were hit or miss depending upon the day you saw them. So a guy that might be ranked highly in the 2009 class would not have been as high in another year because of a much deeper pool of talent in that class.
Disappointed to learn that Junior was a "hit or miss" guy depending on the day you saw him. That he was not even judged as a "good" point guard is troubling. I confess I was expecting at least a "good" player.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 19, 2010, 03:54:27 PM
Disappointed to learn that Junior was a "hit or miss" guy depending on the day you saw him. That he was not even judged as a "good" point guard is troubling. I confess I was expecting at least a "good" player.
I think mostly the reviews of him being that way had more to do with how the people viewing him viewed his body, rather than his game.
Some talent scouts just flat out don't like guys that aren't good athletic specimens. So with Junior you always see comments about "if he can get his weight under control" or "once he gets in the gym and loses 10-15 pounds".
No one thought that he didn't have the talent to be a good if not great player. But a lot of the HS scouting guys put quite a bit of stock into the measurables...how high does he jump, how fast does he run, does his body look etc rather than watching how he's playing on the court.
I think they've gotten rid of free access to it, but if you go back and read the scouting reports on ESPN Insider, nearly every single one of them has some sort of qualification about his playing saying that he plays well, but his body is a problem.
I think the conversation regarding if Junior should play this year or just keep the red shirt going and then comparing his situation to Dominic or Travis is a bit like comparing apples to oranges in a sense...
Travis and Dominic did have the early season schedule to go through to make proper "adjustments" to their game and to pick up on the pace of the college level game before they hit conference play and the toughest parts of the schedule. Now some may argue that we are past the toughest part having already played 'Nova twice, G'Town and West Virginia, but we still have the gamete of the BE in general, which we all know if tough.