(http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=media%2Fapphoto%2Fd56f6686-14d1-4ddd-82cb-983f1d5e0ad3.jpg&w=512&h=351)
(http://media.jsonline.com/images/375*263/fumble11010.jpg)
I personally love the fact that this picture was up on the NFL mainpage (and still is)
www.nfl.com
Thinking the same thing, so what would be the call there? I think the fumble was before the facemask. Does the fumble return get called back? If so, spot foul ?-( 15 yards from the 25 or so, get them back to the 40.
if it was before they recovered it (which it was) i believe it would have remained packer ball. if it was after they recovered it then it would still be holding or something.
I think it was a fine no call because it happened after the fumble and really had no bearing on the play. The helmet-to-helmet that wasn't called a couple plays earlier was much worse.
Quote from: Curtis Loew on January 10, 2010, 09:46:40 PM
if it was before they recovered it (which it was) i believe it would have remained packer ball. if it was after they recovered it then it would still be holding or something.
Thanks, now I can go to bed even more mad.
Crotch punch of weekend for sports. Reminds me of two years ago when I witnessed in person MU getting gimped @ UCONN, then raced home to watch the Pack lose against the Giants in OT.
If their defense could have made one stop all game, they would have won. Forget about the facemask.
Let's not forget about Crosby's missed field goal
It's God awful that the men in stripes failed to do their job when it mattered most but it's just as bad that Mason Crosby couldn't do his job (and hasn't done it all F-ing season) and the packers defense failed to do it's job too.
Crosby hasn't been good this year. No question. But to rag the guy for missing a 54-yarder is stupid. Neal Rackers, on the other hand, owes Michael Adams (of all people) his job.
I said it in the other thread, but I thought this was a poorly-officiated game all-around. Several missed calls and phantom calls both ways. Ultimately, though, it came down to defense (as stupid as that sounds). The Cardinals defense forced 3 turnovers, including the game-winner. Without those, it might have been another blowout win for the Pack.
Of course the Packers could have played better, but an obvious foul is an obvious foul.
ESPN has it up now.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/8719/did-missed-face-mask-cost-the-packers
I wish I could say they got jobbed on just that non-call at the end of the game, and not throughout.
But I can't.
Remember that the face masks that used to be 5 yards for simply grasping the face mask is no longer a penalty. Sorry but that is not a penalty.
The non-call on the play before was worse...Berry (I think...) for ARI went helmet to helmet on Rodgers after he threw the ball. It would have offset the holding on Colledge and given GB an automatic first down. In a time where QBs are probably over protected...it was pretty blatant, and an easier call to make than the facemask.
The fitzgerald vs woodson (non)call was worse.
The facemask is obvious, but really didn't have any effect on the actual play.
The fitzgerald vs woodson play created a touchdown.
Great game by Aaron. He's fantastic, and if the Packers address a couple of personnel issues in the off season, I think they could be very good next year.
IMO they need:
- Improved pass rush (probably means finding another linebacker who is a better pass rusher, or possibly a D-lineman, but there aren't a lot of great D-line pass rushers in a 3-4 scheme)
- Offensive line (so many guys were moved around to cover for injuries. If they could solidify the line with a free agent signing and/or a high draft pick, it would help their depth immensely)
- Impact return man (possibly Blackmon if he comes back healthy)
- Running back (Grant is good, but most really good teams have 2 quality backs)
- improved secondary (see if they can bring in some youth because Woodson and Harris aren't getting any younger)
Quote from: 2002mualum on January 11, 2010, 08:16:31 AM
The fitzgerald vs woodson (non)call was worse.
The facemask is obvious, but really didn't have any effect on the actual play.
The fitzgerald vs woodson play created a touchdown.
Great game by Aaron. He's fantastic, and if the Packers address a couple of personnel issues in the off season, I think they could be very good next year.
IMO they need:
- Improved pass rush (probably means finding another linebacker who is a better pass rusher, or possibly a D-lineman, but there aren't a lot of great D-line pass rushers in a 3-4 scheme)
- Offensive line (so many guys were moved around to cover for injuries. If they could solidify the line with a free agent signing and/or a high draft pick, it would help their depth immensely)
- Impact return man (possibly Blackmon if he comes back healthy)
- Running back (Grant is good, but most really good teams have 2 quality backs)
- improved secondary (see if they can bring in some youth because Woodson and Harris aren't getting any younger)
I think they should go get Cribbs...gives us an awesome PR/KR and also can run some Wildcat (if they so choosed)...
He doesn't want that much money
The Wildcat is a novelty act. Packers have a real quarterback so they should stay away from it.
They need help on the offensive line and in the secondary. I'm glad they are trying to resign Pickett too. And as good as Jones looked this year at OLB, another linebacker would be good too.
Quote from: LancesOtherNut on January 11, 2010, 08:43:35 AM
I think they should go get Cribbs...gives us an awesome PR/KR and also can run some Wildcat (if they so choosed)...
He doesn't want that much money
I don't think he is a FA, and I can't see the new GM being stupid enough to let their most valuable offensive weapon leave.
O-line definitely tops the list, followed closely by LB and secondary help. I'll take my chances with Blackmon and the guys they have been using for the return game (they have no reason to run the wildcat when you have their receivers and quite possibly the best TE in the league.). I agree another running back (with some speed) would be nice.
If they could somehow get Capers a set of balls, that would be nice too.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on January 11, 2010, 09:06:37 AM
O-line definitely tops the list, followed closely by LB and secondary help. I'll take my chances with Blackmon and the guys they have been using for the return game (they have no reason to run the wildcat when you have their receivers and quite possibly the best TE in the league.). I agree another running back (with some speed) would be nice.
If they could somehow get Capers a set of balls, that would be nice too.
But that is where Harris injury really killed the Packers. You can't blitz a lot out of the secondary when you have no depth back there. He tried doing that at the end on the Cardinals final drive, but Warner was just slicing them up.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 11, 2010, 09:13:38 AM
But that is where Harris injury really killed the Packers. You can't blitz a lot out of the secondary when you have no depth back there. He tried doing that at the end on the Cardinals final drive, but Warner was just slicing them up.
I agree with the Harris thing. Problem is, Warner sliced them up the previous 58 minutes as well. They never got near him or frankly gave him anything to think about other than waiting for his receiver to come free 15 yards down the middle of the field. Capers lost his nerve, just as he did against Pittsburgh, and went away from the things that made them a great defense the second half of the year.
Al Harris is a bump and run CB, not a zone CB...he is too old to play that type of cover corner.
EDIT: It was the communication problems on the stacked sets that did in the secondary, that and the lack of any pressure.
Even though they missed two calls, it doesn't really matter...
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/11/replay-review-wasnt-available-for-facemask-roughing-non-call/
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 11, 2010, 08:07:54 AM
Remember that the face masks that used to be 5 yards for simply grasping the face mask is no longer a penalty. Sorry but that is not a penalty.
I thought they changed it to any grasp of face mask, incidental or not, was an automatic 15 yard penalty from the spot of the foul?
Quote from: g0lden3agle on January 11, 2010, 10:38:49 AM
I thought they changed it to any grasp of face mask, incidental or not, was an automatic 15 yard penalty from the spot of the foul?
they did.
No, a simple grasp of the facemask is not a punishable offense. Twisting and yanking calls for a 15 yard penalty.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 11, 2010, 10:47:46 AM
No, a simple grasp of the facemask is not a punishable offense. Twisting and yanking calls for a 15 yard penalty.
no, you're wrong.
While it's unfortunate that they missed the calls... it doesn't change the fact that Aaron missed another easy homerun ball on first down. Oh and the defense only made 2 stops in 60 minutes.
Also, can anyone tell me what the Packers defense was ranked this season? I ask because the announcers were going off prior to the game about them "thriving" in Caper's new system.
I can't agree with the people that state the facemask had no impact on the play. First off, they call that foul, the Packers get 15 yards, still retain the ball, and who knows the outcome.
Also, when he pulled on the facemask, Rodgers fell back, kicking the ball in the air for the LB to catch the ball in mid-air, making the run that much easier to the endzone.
The officials were awful, missed two hits on Rodgers on that last series that should have been flagged. Or Fitzgerald just shoving our DBs to the ground. The hold on Jenkins that they ended up calling a roughing the passer.
Just brutal, thanks NFL. Either have the Tom Brady rule or don't, can't call it once and then skip it the rest of the game.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on January 11, 2010, 10:52:17 AM
no, you're wrong.
http://www.projo.com/patriots/content/sp_fbn_patriots_journal30_07-30-08_J2B1JLU_v9.3e83d1b.html
"Also, the five-yard facemask penalty has been eliminated. If a player clearly pulls, twists or grabs an opponent's facemask, it will be flagged as a 15-yard penalty. Placing a hand on an opponent's facemask and then letting go is no longer a foul.
No apology will be necessary.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 11, 2010, 08:07:54 AM
Remember that the face masks that used to be 5 yards for simply grasping the face mask is no longer a penalty. Sorry but that is not a penalty.
It looked to me like he had it for at least 2 seconds, I'd call that enough for a face mask.
Quote from: Mayor McCheese on January 11, 2010, 11:19:39 AM
I can't agree with the people that state the facemask had no impact on the play. First off, they call that foul, the Packers get 15 yards, still retain the ball, and who knows the outcome.
Also, when he pulled on the facemask, Rodgers fell back, kicking the ball in the air for the LB to catch the ball in mid-air, making the run that much easier to the endzone.
The officials were awful, missed two hits on Rodgers on that last series that should have been flagged. Or Fitzgerald just shoving our DBs to the ground. The hold on Jenkins that they ended up calling a roughing the passer.
Just brutal, thanks NFL. Either have the Tom Brady rule or don't, can't call it once and then skip it the rest of the game.
Hmmm...
He hit Rodgers. Hard. That's why his feet went flying up in the air. Not sure tugging on the mask suddenly made him kick the ball. Seems like a reach.
With this said, I still understand why your pissed.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 11, 2010, 11:20:42 AM
It looked to me like he had it for at least 2 seconds, I'd call that enough for a face mask.
The picture is very misleading. When you see it live, he brought his hand down across his facemask, grasping it briefly, but then letting go.
The Packers got cheated and Capers is clearly a defensive genius.
Don't Packers fans hate Dallas almost as much as the Vikings? Rooting rules should have you guys cheering for your division. Say it with me.. SKOL, VIKINGS, LET'S GO!!!
Quote from: Jay Bee on January 11, 2010, 11:54:49 AM
The Packers got cheated and Capers is clearly a defensive genius.
Don't Packers fans hate Dallas almost as much as the Vikings? Rooting rules should have you guys cheering for your division. Say it with me.. SKOL, VIKINGS, LET'S GO!!!
There was a poll (maybe ESPN sportsnation) of MN residents and 82% (82% !!!) thought that the Vikings would lose to the Cowboys...
As many times as I see the replay, I still think the refs made the wrong call. How they missed it is beyond me.
Majikowski was over the line! ;)
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on January 11, 2010, 10:52:17 AM
no, you're wrong.
He's actually right
» Incidental facemasks: The foul for incidental grasp and release of the facemask has been eliminated. Twisting, turning or pulling the facemask will remain a 15-yard personal foul.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d809f6279&template=with-video&confirm=true
The question becomes if it was incidental. Looked to me like he had it for about 2 seconds, that's more than incidental in my mind.
Quote from: MU_B2002 on January 11, 2010, 10:52:37 AM
While it's unfortunate that they missed the calls... it doesn't change the fact that Aaron missed another easy homerun ball on first down. Oh and the defense only made 2 stops in 60 minutes.
Also, can anyone tell me what the Packers defense was ranked this season? I ask because the announcers were going off prior to the game about them "thriving" in Caper's new system.
I believe the Packers had a top 3 defense per the rankings.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 11, 2010, 12:19:47 PM
He's actually right
» Incidental facemasks: The foul for incidental grasp and release of the facemask has been eliminated. Twisting, turning or pulling the facemask will remain a 15-yard personal foul.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d809f6279&template=with-video&confirm=true
The question becomes if it was incidental. Looked to me like he had it for about 2 seconds, that's more than incidental in my mind.
I'll concede and apologize then... but with the caveat that the message probably didn't get to the officials or they plain ignored it earlier in the game.
I remember a certain incidental face mask on Warner from Jenkins that was flagged for 15 yards.
IMHO, you either call it all or none... I realize calling penalties is extremely subjective, so why not eliminate the subjectivity of this call?
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on January 11, 2010, 12:36:53 PM
I remember a certain incidental face mask on Warner from Jenkins that was flagged for 15 yards.
Technically.... I thought they called roughing the passer for the blow to the head, not a facemask. Jenkins arm did seem to knock him on the head.
I agree on the hold, I don't remember the severity of the push off, but most Tier 1 WR seem to get away with multiple fouls like that every game.
Quote from: MU_B2002 on January 11, 2010, 12:41:33 PM
Technically.... I thought they called roughing the passer for the blow to the head, not a facemask. Jenkins arm did seem to knock him on the head.
As he was being held, while Fitzgerald was tackling Charles Woodson. I thought that was the worst series of calls/non-calls in the game, and it happened all on one play.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 11, 2010, 10:47:46 AM
No, a simple grasp of the facemask is not a punishable offense. Twisting and yanking calls for a 15 yard penalty.
wrong. they are all 15 now.
QuoteFace mask
(offense, defense, or special teams) Grasping the face mask of another player while attempting to block or tackle him. For NFL and NCAA, the grasping and pulling/twisting must be intentional to be penalized. One arm in front of the body, forearm extended vertically. The hand is closed into a fist in front of the face and pulled downward. 15 yards, automatic first down.
seemed like a pretty secure grasp and pull down of the facemask to me
Quote from: Curtis Loew on January 11, 2010, 01:28:40 PM
seemed like a pretty secure grasp and pull down of the facemask to me
That's what I saw...
Look at Rodgers' face, his eyes are now trying to see through his forehead pad, if that's not pulling, then I don't know what is.
Quote from: Curtis Loew on January 11, 2010, 01:14:57 PM
wrong. they are all 15 now.
^This is correct. What used to be classified as an incidental facemask is now a 15 yard penalty.
That being said, we gave up 45 points on defense and got two stops all day (one aided by two Cardinals runs, for whatever reason). Can't say we deserved to win.
I learned what I needed to know. Rodgers is a baller and will be good in GB for a long time. The team will learn from this.
That overthrow to Jennings will replay in my head for the next eight months, though.
Still, a 21 point comeback in a little under two quarters to force overtime in a road playoff game, while abolishing nearly every single game playoff record for a Packer QB? Are you kidding me?
Quote from: PXILibero2 on January 11, 2010, 01:33:48 PM
^This is correct. What used to be classified as an incidental facemask is now a 15 yard penalty.
Please see above. Multiple links show that you are incorrect.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 11, 2010, 01:41:54 PM
Please see above. Multiple links show that you are incorrect.
regardless, its hands to the face, or hitting the QB in the head with your hand.
BOTH are penalties.
Quote from: Jay Bee on January 11, 2010, 11:54:49 AM
The Packers got cheated and Capers is clearly a defensive genius.
Don't Packers fans hate Dallas almost as much as the Vikings? Rooting rules should have you guys cheering for your division. Say it with me.. SKOL, VIKINGS, LET'S GO!!!
I would love to see the Queens get to the Superbowl and extend their record for Superbowl futility.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on January 11, 2010, 08:07:54 AM
Remember that the face masks that used to be 5 yards for simply grasping the face mask is no longer a penalty. Sorry but that is not a penalty.
It's a penalty for sure the way they've been calling it the past few years. Either illegal contact or faskmask, your choice. That said, I hate that they do call and glad they didn't. Wished the Packers would've won and they call it more consistently, but I won't complain about a no-call.
Quote from: MU_B2002 on January 11, 2010, 12:41:33 PM
Technically.... I thought they called roughing the passer for the blow to the head, not a facemask. Jenkins arm did seem to knock him on the head.
I agree on the hold, I don't remember the severity of the push off, but most Tier 1 WR seem to get away with multiple fouls like that every game.
I thought the hold was blatant...as it was happening I basically said "Damn, he's going to get called for the hold" which he was a second late.
If the situation was reversed and a Packers' game-winning TD was called back due to a questionable facemask penalty, I highly doubt that you would all be on here talking about how it was the correct call.
Face it, the Packers got beat by a better team. Deal with it, you bunch of whiners. :'(
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 11, 2010, 02:05:50 PM
If the situation was reversed and a Packers' game-winning TD was called back due to a questionable facemask penalty, I highly doubt that you would all be on here talking about how it was the correct call.
Face it, the Packers got beat by a better team. Deal with it, you bunch of whiners. :'(
agree to disagree, troll.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 11, 2010, 02:05:50 PM
If the situation was reversed and a Packers' game-winning TD was called back due to a questionable facemask penalty, I highly doubt that you would all be on here talking about how it was the correct call.
True
QuoteFace it, the Packers got beat by a better team. Deal with it, you bunch of whiners. :'(
False
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 11, 2010, 11:20:42 AM
It looked to me like he had it for at least 2 seconds, I'd call that enough for a face mask.
Waa waaa! Please. As if the refs are going to pay attention to if some guy is holding onto a face mask for 1 or 2 seconds while another player is streaking towards the end zone in the other direction. I can't believe that the packers defence sucked that bad and the main topic of conversation is one marginal no call at the end.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 11, 2010, 12:27:27 PM
I believe the Packers had a top 3 defense per the rankings.
Packers ended up with the number 2 defense in the NFL (284.4 YPG) - 5th in Passing D, 1st in Rushing D.
In my opinion though, their Defensive unit was probably the most overrated unit in all of football. 10 of their games were played against teams ranked 21-32 in Off YPG (and seeing as how Arizona only played their starters a few series in the last regular season game, it could be argued that they played 11 of their games against subpar offenses.)
Of the 6 (or 5) games they played against top 20 offenses, their defense was average at best, allowing 334 (Minn), 355 (Minn), 278 (Dal), 185 (Bal), 537 (Pit), and 187 (Ari) yards. Below is the Packers schedule. Off YPG rank is before the name, yards the Packers allowed is after.
23 Chi 352
24 Cin 319
29 Stl 336
5 Min 334
26 Det 149
32 Cle 139
5 Min 355
28 TB 279
2 Dal 278
27 Sf 284
26 Det 272
13 Bal 185
23 Chi 264
7 Pit 537
21 Sea 291
14 Ari 187
14 Ari 531 (not included in stats)
Quote from: RawdogDX on January 11, 2010, 04:13:17 PM
Waa waaa! Please. As if the refs are going to pay attention to if some guy is holding onto a face mask for 1 or 2 seconds while another player is streaking towards the end zone in the other direction. I can't believe that the packers defence sucked that bad and the main topic of conversation is one marginal no call at the end.
I'm not a Packers fan, I'm a Cowboys crazed fan....no question the Packers defense was awful but so was the Cardinals. Both teams defenses were a joke. I'm anything but a Packers fan, but I thought they got jobbed on that call and several others.
Believe me, as a Cowboys fan I'd rather see Arizona advance because I think Green Bay is the better team.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 11, 2010, 05:27:26 PM
Believe me, as a Cowboys fan I'd rather see Arizona advance because I think Green Bay is the better team.
You've got far bigger problems than Arizona or Green Bay, potna. Season ends for you on Sunday. Are you coming back to Minneapolis for the game?
Good thing for the Packers that Boldin was out yesterday - if he had played, Arizona might have been able to gain some yardage through the air.
I love to read Peter King's "Monday Morning Quarterback" column on SI.com. He's a very knowledgeable and well-reasoned writer. I don't always agree with him but I find myself doing so more often than not. He seems to be slightly partial to New England and Indianapolis so I take what he says about them with a grain of salt but he's still usually close to fair overall.
In today's column (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/01/10/mmqb/index.html?eref=sihp) he commented exactly on this play in question. He makes the point many here do that you have to show more than incidental contact to warrant the penalty. Was that more? Tough call and one that belongs to the ref. He also makes the following interesting observation:
QuoteBut what complicates matters is this: The referee, Scott Green, is the official on the crew with the responsibility of watching plays involving the quarterback. Once the ball has been dislodged, Green has to watch the ball, not the contact on the quarterback. He has to see if the ball hits the ground and judge if it's a forward pass or a fumble, then he has to follow the live ball until the end of the play. So Green could not -- at least, he should not -- have seen the contact on the mask of Rodgers.
Still don't know whether it was a blown call one way or another but the fact of the matter is the game is over and my Packers lost. I am a firm believer that if a call like that can make or break a game then you didn't truly deserve to win it in the first place - in other words, there are most likely many other things you could have done that you didn't and the blame rests squarely on you if you didn't win.
A coworker asked me if next year the Packers were going to buy plane tickets for their defense to show up too. To me, that was the key of the game. O-line allowed Rodgers to have a career game and special teams was OK (you cannot blame a kicker for missing a 50+ yard field goal.. that's a gamble in and of itself). Bottom line is you have to be able to stop the other team's offense too.
I remember after a GB game a few years ago (versus St. Louis maybe?) Brett said it got to the point where we were gonna have to score every possession to keep up and that is was nearly impossible. Same thing here and that is major kudos to Warner (who had more TD's - 5 - than incomplete passes - 4!!!).
Now I'm just trying to figure out who to root for the rest of the way. Dallas looks darned impressive. Don't know that I believe Arizona can repeatedly play perfect offensively like they need to continue winning but we'll see. Minnesota looks like a house of cards and who knows what's going on with New Orleans. Can't root for the AFC no matter what so I don't really have many options. Anyone have a good sized bucket of sand for me to bury my head in for a few weeks?
Quote from: Jay Bee on January 11, 2010, 06:16:28 PM
You've got far bigger problems than Arizona or Green Bay, potna. Season ends for you on Sunday. Are you coming back to Minneapolis for the game?
Good thing for the Packers that Boldin was out yesterday - if he had played, Arizona might have been able to gain some yardage through the air.
I will not be there, but if the Cowboys are fortunate enough to win, then I will be at the NFC title game in either Dallas or New Orleans.
This week will be a big challenge, thankfully Favre is 2-9 against the Cowboys all-time. I'm hoping that trend continues.
Quote from: spiral97 on January 11, 2010, 06:30:36 PM
But what complicates matters is this: The referee, Scott Green, is the official on the crew with the responsibility of watching plays involving the quarterback. Once the ball has been dislodged, Green has to watch the ball, not the contact on the quarterback. He has to see if the ball hits the ground and judge if it's a forward pass or a fumble, then he has to follow the live ball until the end of the play. So Green could not -- at least, he should not -- have seen the contact on the mask of Rodgers.
I heard that on the radio this morning and found it laughable. If you look at the photo on the front of the Journal sports section (and all over the Internet), the Cardinal's player's fingers are on Rodger's facemask while the ball is less than 5 inches from his fingertips. In real time, the ball would have to have been in his hand not more than one second before photo was taken. It isn't like the facemask took place 3 seconds after he dropped the ball and the ref had already turned his head. The two actions are happening virtually simultaniously.
Missing the call is a mistake by the ref (a painful one in Packers fan's minds). Everyone makes mistakes. But, don't try to pass off this BS to make it sound like the ref was correct to not see it. That almost pissed me off more than the play itself. Okay, not as much as the play, but still quite a bit.
good point.. and in pictures it looks close like that.. but in real time a lot becomes missed when your focus changes.. i dunno.. regardless I don't blame the refs but rather the team. It's a young team so hopefully it's a learning experience.. only "older" player on the team in a critical position is woodson and that position has been a tough one to keep quality at for a few years so hopefully he's around for a while. liking what I see for next year (yes, I'm a cubs fan too if you couldn't tell :D)
Quote from: spiral97 on January 11, 2010, 08:06:35 PM
(yes, I'm a cubs fan too if you couldn't tell :D)
Oh good lord, there is another one! I thought I was the only one cursed with the Cub/Packer affliction. God be with you!
Quote from: MUEng92 on January 11, 2010, 09:01:48 PM
Oh good lord, there is another one! I thought I was the only one cursed with the Cub/Packer affliction. God be with you!
yeah we can sure pick em eh? Just once would I like one of my teams to outright dominate for a season.. just once and it only has to be one of my teams.. is that too much to ask?! LOL