MUScoop

A great effort goes to waste.  Free throws cost us the Fl. State game and now this game. 

Terrible, terrible, terrible.  Don't know what else to say or what is going on in the players mind.  What an effort on the road.   

Does Buzz still not have the players shoot free throws during practice?

This whole practice thing needs to cease. The guys who missed at the end have shown they can hit free throws....when it's non-crunch time. Doing it in practice isn't comparable to having to hit them at Morgantown. Just ain't so.

Young team. This is a game that a young team loses. Last year's team does not lose this game. You take the good with the bad. I'm as disappointed as anyone, but hopefully DJO and Jimmy will make them next time. And...they all look at the film.

You can't lay this one on Buzz as much as people are trying to.

So, when the guys practice free throws on their own, do they blast music or simulate deafening crowd noise? Do all the players have to stay until all of them make their last 5 free throws in a row? DO any of them have to run laps when they miss two in a row?

After two years in a row of having MU players miss FT's at the end of the game, I'd say there's probably some correlation as to why they can't make any of theses baskets with not practicing any in a controlled practice situation.

Quote from: Norm on December 29, 2009, 11:25:06 PM
So, when the guys practice free throws on their own, do they blast music or simulate deafening crowd noise? Do all the players have to stay until all of them make their last 5 free throws in a row? DO any of them have to run laps when they miss two in a row?

The answer to those questions is no. Buzz is like a teacher assigning homework that doesn't get graded.  Some people might do it to practice for the test, but some won't do it at all and most will just go through the motions.  Force them to be accountable for making free throws like the dozens of other coaches whose teams don't routinely choke games away and they're also going to put in a better effort on their own time.  That way you can build "mental toughness" instead of just preaching it.

I think we need to "sticky" an official thread on why FTs are not practiced.

I wish they made those, but a whole game can tire your legs out.

Quote from: Niv Berkowitz on December 29, 2009, 11:13:42 PM
This whole practice thing needs to cease. The guys who missed at the end have shown they can hit free throws....when it's non-crunch time. Doing it in practice isn't comparable to having to hit them at Morgantown. Just ain't so.

Young team. This is a game that a young team loses. Last year's team does not lose this game. You take the good with the bad. I'm as disappointed as anyone, but hopefully DJO and Jimmy will make them next time. And...they all look at the film.

You can't lay this one on Buzz as much as people are trying to.

Honestly, I haven't seen anyone lay this on Buzz, but I haven't read all the posts so I suppose there could be some people.  The kids missed free throws and didn't play very good defense in the last minute...Buzz did a nice job getting them prepared and ready to go in a tough environment.  Unfortunate game that we let get away.

Quote from: Norm on December 29, 2009, 11:25:06 PM
So, when the guys practice free throws on their own, do they blast music or simulate deafening crowd noise? Do all the players have to stay until all of them make their last 5 free throws in a row? DO any of them have to run laps when they miss two in a row?

After two years in a row of having MU players miss FT's at the end of the game, I'd say there's probably some correlation as to why they can't make any of theses baskets with not practicing any in a controlled practice situation.

are we in the bottom third in ft%?  Must be, otherwise people wouldn't be bringing this up. Right?

missed the game tonight...sounds like the same ol thing...missed ft's in crunch time.

i'm not blaming buzz.  the players need to man-up and knock down their ft's.

u gotta have ice in your veins.

if these guys can't gather enough confidence to shoot from the charity stripe with purpose...then they deserve to loose. even a heart-breaker.

bummer

Is there a way to practice FTs when you are fatigued or under a lot of pressure? 

I am just asking the question because the guys seem to make them in normal game situations but miss when they are under pressure and at the end of games.  DJO didn't look very confident (just the look on his face as he was just about to shoot) on front end of the one-and-one he missed.  As he shot it I said to myself that it wasn't going in.  The shot barely hit the front of the rim and bounced down. 

Jimmy on the other hand looked confident this time and I just think it was an unfortunate miss.  Against FSU however, it became psychological. 

Are their techniques where you can duplicate the psychological pressure of the game while taking some throws?

Face it!!! We blew a 5 point lead with 46 seconds to play. They scored 6 points in that time--we scored none. We missed the front end of two bonuses--DJO and Butler. We played poor defense.

How is it they could score 6 and we none. It was a blown game, and you hang those on coaching. Huggins must have known more than Buzz in this one. Hate Huggins, but his team got the job done and ours caved.

FT's were costly. If we are not practicing them--we should.

Completely wrong on the coaching.    One of the best schemed, best coached games I've seen Buzz have.    Timely use of TO's, good substitution pattern, turned a liability into an asset by having our little guys pressure their big guys, slowed the game down, used the clock.....he outcoached Huggins.    In the end, the players have to make playes.    If our FT shooters make free throws, this is a completely different board today.    Buzz can't make the free throws for them.     
Last year, coaching an 8th grade girls team, we lost a game by 4 in which we missed 5 breakaway layups and shot 4-18 from the foul line.   I couldn't sleep.   One of my players' parents sent me an e-mail about how impressed he was with the job I did with the girls, to not beat myself up, that it is on the players to make shots.     
All a coach can do is put his players in the best possible position to make plays.    It is on them, not Buzz,  to make the free throws.     Going back to Mizzou, it is on our guys to make their shots and Lazar to not make a 5th grade mistake at the end.   Same deal

Or.....we can blame the coach's decision to go with those    *&%^$#@$$%!@#$% light blue unis........

ditto, ditto, ditto
This one is not on Buzz, he did nearly everything right.
This is not a young team as some have said but it is an inexperienced team.  Other than Zar none of these guys have been relied on to do anything in crunch time.  This is one of the downsides to having the 3 Amigos around for so long, they were the MEN in this situation.
They say you get experience after you need it.  Very true here.  I just hope these guys don't become resigned to losing these games because IF WE ARE LUCKY the rest of the Big East season will come down to these kind of games.  The alternative is MU getting blown out.

Yeah we are terrible at FT's.  73% as a team.  That has to be last in the NCAA right?

stupid trolls.

I think we were very spoiled when Diener and Novak were around.  They were automatic at the end of games.  Haven't had a great free throw shooter since.  McNeal and Matthews were a step below with Matthews being close to what Diener was.  

I don't see a star player on this team that wants the ball at the end.  I don't see a player on this team that is a very good free throw shooter.  

Blown games at the free throw line happens when you don't have a legit big time point guard.  A legit big time point guard with ice water in the veins makes this problem disappear.  Has nothing to do with practicing free throws in any environment.  Here is hoping that Jr is a good free throw shooter or has ice water in his veins.

Quote from: RawdogDX on December 30, 2009, 10:24:15 AM
Yeah we are terrible at FT's.  73% as a team.  That has to be last in the NCAA right?

stupid trolls.

Don't think they are trolls....what people might be saying is how do we shoot free throws in the clutch?  I always loved the stat on tv when it showed FT % as a whole and what it was in the last 2 minutes.

There have been some unfortunate losses for MU in the last two years due to an inability to hit free throws in the clutch.  FSU, West Virginia, Villanova, Syracuse, etc.  I have no idea what our FT % is in the clutch, it might be outstanding....perhaps I only remember the losses as a result of us not being able to seal the deal.

DJO couldn't find his nuts and completed gimped in the clutch.  He's a helluva player and I'm glad he doesn't waste the NCAA-allowed practice time shooting free throws... he just didn't come through in the clutch.

Sounds like some folks think we should bring in a band and screaming fans at the end of every practice and have the fellas shoot 500 FT's each.  You're nuts.

PS - Mazzulla's free throw 'shot' was the worse thing I have ever seen, Shaq included.  

Quote from: tower912 on December 30, 2009, 07:06:32 AM
Completely wrong on the coaching.    One of the best schemed, best coached games I've seen Buzz have.   

I don't think one can absolve the coach 100% in these situations. It is incumbent on the coach to provide the proper motivation so the players have confidence. Either that wasn't done, or it wasn't effective enough.  The coach has to take at least some of the blame for that.  It wasn't as if our guys looked confident and just missed a shot.  They didn't look like they believed they could win.

We don't know what Buzz said in the huddle--Did he talk about setting up quickly on defense after a miss?  That would represent a huge coaching mistake--any psych major would tell you that the language that you use in those situations is  "After Jimmy makes his 2nd shot . . . "     

I also don't buy that these are "young" or "inexperienced" players--Butler is half way through his junior year, and has been in enough close game situations to understand what is going on.  DJO is halfway through his sophomore year.  The reason you bring on a Juco is so you don't have to go through freshman jitters.  If we bring on Jucos who have to play like freshmen, we might as well just bring on freshmen.

Quote from: Jay Bee on December 30, 2009, 10:28:10 AM

PS - Mazzulla's free throw 'shot' was the worse thing I have ever seen, Shaq included.  

I think Roziak wrote where Mazzulla was shooting with his other hand since his shoulder is in such pain.

Quote from: downtown85 on December 30, 2009, 02:56:34 AM
Is there a way to practice FTs when you are fatigued or under a lot of pressure?...Are their techniques where you can duplicate the psychological pressure of the game while taking some throws?

I'm not taking a position on whether or not MU should practice free throws a part of official practice, but I will share an interesting method that my son's coach uses.  Typically at the end of practice (or earlier in some cases if they have a bad FT shooting game), he lines all of them up on the FT line extended (i.e., stretching all the way across the court at the FT line).  He picks one to shoot.  They must make two in a row.  If they miss, the entire team must run a ladder (sprint to the base line; back pedal back to the half-court line; sprint to the base line; back pedal back to the other base line; sprint to the base line; back pedal back to the FT line extended).  If they make the first one, the coaches yell, blow whistles, etc. for the second FT.  Then he picks another one.  If he misses, same drill.  I think it's interesting because it does a couple of things.  1) there's the pressure the kids feel because they don't want to make their teammates run; and 2) they typically are pretty winded when shooting.  Their in-game FT shooting has improved.  However, these are only seventh graders, so any good coaching (and I think they are getting that) will result in improvements.  I'm not saying this is the greatest drill ever, but it does address some of the typical "in game" scenarios that are not present if someone just sits and shoots FTs.

Quote from: StillAWarrior on December 30, 2009, 02:32:02 PM
I'm not taking a position on whether or not MU should practice free throws a part of official practice, but I will share an interesting method that my son's coach uses.  Typically at the end of practice (or earlier in some cases if they have a bad FT shooting game), he lines all of them up on the FT line extended (i.e., stretching all the way across the court at the FT line).  He picks one to shoot.  They must make two in a row.  If they miss, the entire team must run a ladder (sprint to the base line; back pedal back to the half-court line; sprint to the base line; back pedal back to the other base line; sprint to the base line; back pedal back to the FT line extended).  If they make the first one, the coaches yell, blow whistles, etc. for the second FT.  Then he picks another one.  If he misses, same drill.  I think it's interesting because it does a couple of things.  1) there's the pressure the kids feel because they don't want to make their teammates run; and 2) they typically are pretty winded when shooting.  Their in-game FT shooting has improved.  However, these are only seventh graders, so any good coaching (and I think they are getting that) will result in improvements.  I'm not saying this is the greatest drill ever, but it does address some of the typical "in game" scenarios that are not present if someone just sits and shoots FTs.

we did this way back in 5th-8th grade basketball.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 30, 2009, 02:38:56 PM
we did this way back in 5th-8th grade basketball.

Yes, when FUNDAMENTALS are taught.  John Wooden taught it at UCLA until he quit in 1975.  Other coaches still do it.

That being said, this is a good free throw shooting team....except at crunch time it seems.

Quote from: StillAWarrior on December 30, 2009, 02:32:02 PM
I'm not taking a position on whether or not MU should practice free throws a part of official practice, but I will share an interesting method that my son's coach uses.  Typically at the end of practice (or earlier in some cases if they have a bad FT shooting game), he lines all of them up on the FT line extended (i.e., stretching all the way across the court at the FT line).  He picks one to shoot.  They must make two in a row.  If they miss, the entire team must run a ladder (sprint to the base line; back pedal back to the half-court line; sprint to the base line; back pedal back to the other base line; sprint to the base line; back pedal back to the FT line extended).  If they make the first one, the coaches yell, blow whistles, etc. for the second FT.  Then he picks another one.  If he misses, same drill.  I think it's interesting because it does a couple of things.  1) there's the pressure the kids feel because they don't want to make their teammates run; and 2) they typically are pretty winded when shooting.  Their in-game FT shooting has improved.  However, these are only seventh graders, so any good coaching (and I think they are getting that) will result in improvements.  I'm not saying this is the greatest drill ever, but it does address some of the typical "in game" scenarios that are not present if someone just sits and shoots FTs.

For fun, we added this.   If you make both FT's, you are offered a third.   If you miss it, the team runs.   Make it, the coaches run.   Or do nothing and nobody runs.    You learn quickly who wants the ball and who you WANT to have the ball.  Apropos of nothing, just something to try at your next practice.

Should have Hack-A-Mazzula.

My opinion has always been that the BEST time to practice free throws is in the middle to end portion of practice, when the guys are fatigued, breathing heavy, etc...coaches blows the whistles in the middle of a drill and send players to the line (the team runs if they can't hit their ft's)...

Thats how it happens in a game...quick, abrubt, whistle blows, you're sent to the line...

Buzz NEEDS to start doing something to that effect or the guys will continue to struggle down the stretch.

Yesterday was about as frustrating a finish as I've seen in years for MU...

Quote from: MU_Iceman on December 30, 2009, 04:17:53 PM
My opinion has always been that the BEST time to practice free throws is in the middle to end portion of practice, when the guys are fatigued, breathing heavy, etc...coaches blows the whistles in the middle of a drill and send players to the line (the team runs if they can't hit their ft's)...

Thats how it happens in a game...quick, abrubt, whistle blows, you're sent to the line...

Buzz NEEDS to start doing something to that effect or the guys will continue to struggle down the stretch.

Yesterday was about as frustrating a finish as I've seen in years for MU...

Give us all a break...  Are you really saying that this grade school practice technique -- conducted during official practice time -- would have enabled DJO or Butler to hit their free throws at the end of the game?  Is that all it would take?  Then why does anybody ever miss a crucial free throw in crunch time situations?  Because I guarantee you that these kids have been doing some variation of your proposed "solution" ever since they started playing organized basketball. 

I absoultYesterday was frustrating...very frustrating.  But to think that you've got some solution to the problem that you learned in middle school is absurd. 

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 30, 2009, 04:46:34 PM
Give us all a break...  Are you really saying that this grade school practice technique -- conducted during official practice time -- would have enabled DJO or Butler to hit their free throws at the end of the game?  Is that all it would take?  Then why does anybody ever miss a crucial free throw in crunch time situations?  Because I guarantee you that these kids have been doing some variation of your proposed "solution" ever since they started playing organized basketball. 

Yesterday was frustrating...very frustrating.  But to think that you've got some solution to the problem that you learned in middle school is absurd. 

fixed

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 30, 2009, 04:46:34 PM
Give us all a break...  Are you really saying that this grade school practice technique -- conducted during official practice time -- would have enabled DJO or Butler to hit their free throws at the end of the game?  Is that all it would take?  Then why does anybody ever miss a crucial free throw in crunch time situations?  Because I guarantee you that these kids have been doing some variation of your proposed "solution" ever since they started playing organized basketball. 

I absoultYesterday was frustrating...very frustrating.  But to think that you've got some solution to the problem that you learned in middle school is absurd. 

Wow, someone is a little cranky today...I never said or implied that they would have made their free throws, but the fact is that in both this game AND the FSU game the commentators who, sorry, know far more than you or I do about any of this, implied that MU was gassed.  Its important to practice free throws in as close to game conditions as possible (ie. gassed) not just on their free time...

And that "middle school drill" as you called it, comes from something i was taught years ago by two men (a coach and also my father) both of which PLAYED D1 basketball (again, people more educated in the matter than you or me)...all I'm saying is it can't hurt to try...

But you're right, god forbid people express their opinions on a blog site...

Quote from: MU_Iceman on December 30, 2009, 05:03:12 PM
Wow, someone is a little cranky today...I never said or implied that they would have made their free throws, but the fact is that in both this game AND the FSU game the commentators who, sorry, know far more than you or I do about any of this, implied that MU was gassed.  Its important to practice free throws in as close to game conditions as possible (ie. gassed) not just on their free time...

And that "middle school drill" as you called it, comes from something i was taught years ago by two men (a coach and also my father) both of which PLAYED D1 basketball (again, people more educated in the matter than you or me)...all I'm saying is it can't hurt to try...

Not disagreeing in general but take issue with the idea that because someone went into sports broadcasting they automatically know more about OUR team than everyone who comes to this site.

Or that someone's dad knows more about coaching than everyone on this site just because he played D1.  Plenty of smart/well informed people on here.

Quote from: MU_Iceman on December 30, 2009, 05:03:12 PM
...all I'm saying is it can't hurt to try...

  No, that's not all you were saying.  You said, "Buzz NEEDS to start doing something to that effect or the guys will continue to struggle down the stretch."

Including capitalizing NEEDS.  I completely disagree with you on that opinion and believe your assumption that commentators on TV, your dad, and a coach are people more educated than "you or me" (by me you may have meant ATL MU Warrior, but it appeared you meant people posting on this board in general) is silly at best.

Quote from: Marquette84 on December 30, 2009, 10:54:58 AM
I don't think one can absolve the coach 100% in these situations. It is incumbent on the coach to provide the proper motivation so the players have confidence. Either that wasn't done, or it wasn't effective enough.  The coach has to take at least some of the blame for that.  It wasn't as if our guys looked confident and just missed a shot.  They didn't look like they believed they could win.

We don't know what Buzz said in the huddle--Did he talk about setting up quickly on defense after a miss?  That would represent a huge coaching mistake--any psych major would tell you that the language that you use in those situations is  "After Jimmy makes his 2nd shot . . . "     

I also don't buy that these are "young" or "inexperienced" players--Butler is half way through his junior year, and has been in enough close game situations to understand what is going on.  DJO is halfway through his sophomore year.  The reason you bring on a Juco is so you don't have to go through freshman jitters.  If we bring on Jucos who have to play like freshmen, we might as well just bring on freshmen.


Th

There are so many things wrong with this entire statement, I ask myself if the author is serious??  Speculating that Buzz didn't use the right pschyology? Blaming Buzz for the players not looking confident at the line?  The reason you bring in a JUCO is to avoid having to deal with freshman jitters?  Seriously??  JUCO's are brought in for 2 main reasons:  To balanace recruiting classes, and secondly tbecause they are talented players.  Period.  Not because a team gets to "avoid freshman jitters."  That was DJO's first major road game in his MU career, outside of WWisconsin...

Quote from: RawdogDX on December 30, 2009, 05:57:34 PM
Not disagreeing in general but take issue with the idea that because someone went into sports broadcasting they automatically know more about OUR team than everyone who comes to this site.

Or that someone's dad knows more about coaching than everyone on this site just because he played D1.  Plenty of smart/well informed people on here.

Bob Wenzel, one of the broadcasters last night, was the head coach at Rutgers, Jacksonville University...he led both schools to the NCAA Tournament (as well as NIT appearances).  He was also a guard for Rutgers in his playing days.   

In addition, an assistant at Duke, Utah and the New Jersey Nets.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 30, 2009, 06:26:24 PM
Bob Wenzel, one of the broadcasters last night, was the head coach at Rutgers, Jacksonville University...he led both schools to the NCAA Tournament (as well as NIT appearances).  He was also a guard for Rutgers in his playing days.   

In addition, an assistant at Duke, Utah and the New Jersey Nets.

  Completely irrelevant.  Discuss the background of all broadcasters or discuss none.

Quote from: willie warrior on December 30, 2009, 06:07:54 AM
Face it!!! We blew a 5 point lead with 46 seconds to play. They scored 6 points in that time--we scored none. We missed the front end of two bonuses--DJO and Butler. We played poor defense.

How is it they could score 6 and we none. It was a blown game, and you hang those on coaching. Huggins must have known more than Buzz in this one. Hate Huggins, but his team got the job done and ours caved.

FT's were costly. If we are not practicing them--we should.

If you think practice free throws are the same as in game crunch time free throwsyou are nuts. Pressure creates a whole different situation.

Quote from: Jay Bee on December 30, 2009, 06:37:15 PM
  Completely irrelevant.  Discuss the background of all broadcasters or discuss none.

So a former DI coach and player, and a paid professional that does on average about 4 to 5 DI basketball games per week is not qualified to give an opinion on this matter?

Perhaps I'm not understanding you.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 30, 2009, 06:59:33 PM
So a former DI coach and player, and a paid professional that does on average about 4 to 5 DI basketball games per week is not qualified to give an opinion on this matter?

Perhaps I'm not understanding you.

 Your question has nothing to do with the discussion.  You were replying to, "Not disagreeing in general but take issue with the idea that because someone went into sports broadcasting they automatically know more about OUR team than everyone who comes to this site."

 How does one guys credentials have anything to do with everyone that goes into sports broadcasting?  It doesn't.  

edit:  BTW - I don't believe he does an average of 4.5 games per week.  You're just making numbers up.  Maybe I missed it - did someone say, "commentators are not qualified to give an opinion on Marquette hoops"?  I thought all that was said is that being a commentator doesn't mean you're far more knowledgeable about MU hoops than any person on this site.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 30, 2009, 06:59:33 PM
So a former DI coach and player, and a paid professional that does on average about 4 to 5 DI basketball games per week is not qualified to give an opinion on this matter?

Perhaps I'm not understanding you.

Thank you, Chico...apparently I made a HORRIBLE mistake when I put the word "NEED" into my post; again I was merely under the impression that this was a site where people posted their OPINIONS on things...my OPINION is that buzz needs to practice free throws when guys are fatigued as opposed to on their own time and my thought on the matter was that MAYBE he could incorporate drills that other D1 players and coaches have implemented in the past...

SOMEWHAT RELATED, but Bill Belichek (who I despise) has consistently pulled Brady in the middle of 2-minute drill practice sequences and thrust the back-up (most notably Matt Cassell in recent years) into the most game-like situation he could to try and simulate the pressure of a game as best as possible.  Why is stopping practice to work on one man in football okay for one of the best coaches in the NFL, but not for a D1 basketball program?  As I recall, that philosphy worked out pretty well for NE last year...

Quote from: MU_Iceman on December 30, 2009, 07:31:46 PM
Why is stopping practice to work on one man in football okay for one of the best coaches in the NFL, but not for a D1 basketball program?  As I recall, that philosphy worked out pretty well for NE last year...

  You're right.  Shooting free throws in a college bball game is completely analogous to the two-minute drill in the National Football League.  I'm not sure what a "philosphy" is, but clearly you're a great sports mind.
  Why is it you cry when others don't agree with your opinion?  Aren't you just doing the same?  Or, as you might say.. THE SAME??!?!?!?!?!!
  Watching front-ends being missed has always physically hurt me.. but, this team has much more important things to work on than free throws 'late in practice, when they are tired'. 

Quote from: Jay Bee on December 30, 2009, 07:43:46 PM
  You're right.  Shooting free throws in a college bball game is completely analogous to the two-minute drill in the National Football League.  I'm not sure what a "philosphy" is, but clearly you're a great sports mind.
  Why is it you cry when others don't agree with your opinion?  Aren't you just doing the same?  Or, as you might say.. THE SAME??!?!?!?!?!!
  Watching front-ends being missed has always physically hurt me.. but, this team has much more important things to work on than free throws 'late in practice, when they are tired'. 

Seriously dude, I'm really not trying to argue with you; and you attacking me because I have an opinion different than yours and because I referenced a solution that differs from a few other peoples is pretty comical.

I don't care if you or anyone shares my opinion, but to attack mine and everyone who I've referenced 's credibility is seriously just unneccessary.  People can agree to disagree.  I haven't belittled you in any way or sarcastically referenced you as a "great sports mind"

As for the 2-minute drill and stopping practice for free throws, I wrote that it's somewhat related only in that it thrust people into a situation where they have to perform...that can apply to free throws while fatigued...but again, my opinion and anyone who agrees with me is soo far off base, so I'm sorry...

It's just not worth arguing with you...you're right, what we've been doing as it pertains to free throws is probably fine, we don't need to commit five minutes of practice time to shoot them as a team, it was just a thought, but a terrible one, I guess...

Now go ahead and verbally attack this post, maybe go after chico for agreeing with me too, you can have the last word...I'm done with this...

On to Nova

  The hypocrisy in your posts is impressively high.  From the long post ending with 'it's not worth it...' and 'on to Nova'... to 'you can have the last word.. I'm done with this' (I win!  what you say doesn't matter!  12 yr old talk).. to you calling my reply 'pretty comical'.. but at the end of the day, I'm glad you're going back on your comment that Buzz NEEDS to have us work on free throws in some type of stressful situation.  

By the way... if you want to talk football... there is no "Bill Belichek"... there is no 'thrusting the back-up' into practice... and granted his team had the ball and there was two and change left, but I'm not sure New England has proven to be the most wise late in the game (see Indy game this year, up late, 4th down, ball in their territory)... maybe if they hadn't consistently thrust the backup during practice things would have turned out differently.  

Quote from: Ners on December 30, 2009, 06:17:29 PM

There are so many things wrong with this entire statement, I ask myself if the author is serious?? 
Speculating that Buzz didn't use the right pschyology? Blaming Buzz for the players not looking confident at the line?  

And how exactly is this different than the previous post--which speculated that Buzz DID use the right psychology?  

Are you saying you were in the huddle and you know for a 100% fact that Buzz did absolutely everything he could to motivate and pump up the players.  You can vouch with 100% certainty that nothing Buzz said put doubt into the players heads?

Didn't think so.  

Therefore, there is no way you can hold the coach 100% blameless in this situation.  

Quote from: Ners on December 30, 2009, 06:17:29 PM

The reason you bring in a JUCO is to avoid having to deal with freshman jitters?  Seriously??  JUCO's are brought in for 2 main reasons:  To balanace recruiting classes, and secondly tbecause they are talented players.  Period.  Not because a team gets to "avoid freshman jitters." 

Tell me Einstein--why would a coach care about "balancing" the classes?  
Because he wants to avoid a class overloaded with freshmen!

What is wrong with a class load of freshmen?
Don't tell me its because freshman don't have talent.  One word destroys that argument amigo.

Coaches don't want a teamload of freshmen because freshmen tend to get jittery and not play as well whenever they encounter a new situation--like, say, their first major road game outside their home team's state.

Quote from: Ners on December 30, 2009, 06:17:29 PM

That was DJO's first major road game in his MU career, outside of WWisconsin...

Yes.  Like I said, he had a case of the freshman jitters.

The ONLY thing that prepares players to hit game clinching free throws, is for players to shoot game clinching free throws.  He didn't miss that free throw because he was tire, he missed it because of nerves.  Players will often shoot free throws after lifting weights to simulate the feeling of tired legs/arms.  There's nothing to simulate a game clinching free throw, against a top #10 team, for a players first BEAST game.  Overall, I was very impressed with his first BEAST game.

A scenario, as described in above posts, like using team peer pressure in practice is a joke.  I'm sure DJO has made game clinching free throws throughout his basketball career...unfortunately this was his first attempt at anything close to beating a top #10 team on a BEAST stage. It's all in his head from here on out...he shoots free throws very well.

Quote from: MU_Iceman on December 30, 2009, 05:03:12 PM
Wow, someone is a little cranky today...I never said or implied that they would have made their free throws, but the fact is that in both this game AND the FSU game the commentators who, sorry, know far more than you or I do about any of this, implied that MU was gassed.  Its important to practice free throws in as close to game conditions as possible (ie. gassed) not just on their free time...

And that "middle school drill" as you called it, comes from something i was taught years ago by two men (a coach and also my father) both of which PLAYED D1 basketball (again, people more educated in the matter than you or me)...all I'm saying is it can't hurt to try...

Yes it most certainly CAN hurt to try if it takes practice time away that could be spent on other things.

I coach youth basketball...in fact I just came from practice today where we ran this exact same drill.  It would be absurdly stupid to run this in a college practice.  It still doesn't simulate game situations.  DJO's barely hit the rim...that's all nerves.

Quote from: Ners on December 30, 2009, 06:17:29 PM
There are so many things wrong with this entire statement, I ask myself if the author is serious??  Speculating that Buzz didn't use the right pschyology? Blaming Buzz for the players not looking confident at the line?  The reason you bring in a JUCO is to avoid having to deal with freshman jitters?  Seriously??  JUCO's are brought in for 2 main reasons:  To balanace recruiting classes, and secondly tbecause they are talented players.  Period.  Not because a team gets to "avoid freshman jitters."  That was DJO's first major road game in his MU career, outside of WWisconsin...

Ners...I have to totally agree with you i stayed away from  this thread due to its title and finally read it tonight.  Serious this Marquette 84 i worry about.  I seriously have to question the sanity of someone that posts this stuff.  maybe some delusional personal that is not taking mediaction.  No way you can read that post and walk away from it saying  rational person actually came up with it.  mind boggling....MU84 seek help 

Quote from: Jay Bee on December 30, 2009, 07:12:08 PM
 Your question has nothing to do with the discussion.  You were replying to, "Not disagreeing in general but take issue with the idea that because someone went into sports broadcasting they automatically know more about OUR team than everyone who comes to this site."

 How does one guys credentials have anything to do with everyone that goes into sports broadcasting?  It doesn't.  

edit:  BTW - I don't believe he does an average of 4.5 games per week.  You're just making numbers up.  Maybe I missed it - did someone say, "commentators are not qualified to give an opinion on Marquette hoops"?  I thought all that was said is that being a commentator doesn't mean you're far more knowledgeable about MU hoops than any person on this site.

I took it to mean that just because someone is a sports broadcaster, doesn't mean they understand the game that well.  I actually agree with that statement.  However, what I was pointing out was that in this case, the announcer was more than just an electronic journalism graduate who got into sports broadcasting, but a former DI coach and DI player who's opinion seems more attached to the realities of what happens on the court than merely a broadcaster.

That's all.

And he does an average of 2 games per week for SNY \ MSG, 1 game for ESPN and occasionally 1 game a week for CBS.  Not quite 4 per week, but in some weeks he does 4.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 30, 2009, 09:02:27 PM

Yes it most certainly CAN hurt to try if it takes practice time away that could be spent on other things.

I coach youth basketball...in fact I just came from practice today where we ran this exact same drill.  It would be absurdly stupid to run this in a college practice.  It still doesn't simulate game situations.  DJO's barely hit the rim...that's all nerves.

I would not say it's absurdly stupid....DI coaches, some, still run it today.  It's all a matter of choice.

Most recently?  #1 ranked Kansas Jayhawks.  

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2009/dec/09/jayhawks-working-free-throws/

"Coach will say something like, 'If we don't make five in a row we'll have a 22 (penalty sprint),'" said KU sophomore power forward Markieff Morris.

"Thomas (Robinson) was shooting the other day, and he made four in a row," Markieff added, noting Self chose that moment to kid around in an attempt to rattle the freshman forward.

"Coach started grabbing him and said, 'You've got a nice body,' and Thomas missed the last one."

The Jayhawks (7-0) — who have hit 65 percent of their free-throw tries, compared to opponents' 66.7 percent mark heading into today's 7 p.m. home game against Radford (4-2) — do indeed practice charities extensively.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 30, 2009, 09:48:32 PM
I took it to mean that just because someone is a sports broadcaster, doesn't mean they understand the game that well.  I actually agree with that statement.  However, what I was pointing out was that in this case, the announcer was more than just an electronic journalism graduate who got into sports broadcasting, but a former DI coach and DI player who's opinion seems more attached to the realities of what happens on the court than merely a broadcaster.

That's all.

And he does an average of 2 games per week for SNY \ MSG, 1 game for ESPN and occasionally 1 game a week for CBS.  Not quite 4 per week, but in some weeks he does 4.

 You misread. Quite the opposite was being discussed.  People were irked by someone saying that just because they are broadcasting a game means they are almighty knowing.  And... in a very general sense, not related to one guy.  
 Many guys (and a couple gals?!), both play by play and color guys, are very wise.  I hope you watch Red Eye.

  Doesn't Self grab all his players and say, "you've got a nice body" in many situations, not just when practicing free throws?  I heard that was the main 'sticking point' for Tyshawn in getting him to head to Lawrence. 

http://blogs.courant.com/uconn_mens_basketball/2009/12/mailbag-question-1214-free-thr.html


Mailbag Question, 12/14: Free Throws
By
Mike Anthony
on December 14, 2009 4:13 PM | Permalink | Comments (2)

Q: Mike, this is about 5 years in a row or so that they simply cannot make foul shots, especially when it matters most.  Does Calhoun force them to shoot foul shots in practice?  I mean he never talks about it and it costs them game after game.  They keep integrating new players yet nothing changes.  How can almost every guy miss foul shots?  Dyson may have a good average but he missed a bunch [against Kentucky] and Kemba Walker is flat out terrible at the line.  He crushed their comeback against Michigan St. last season.

-Jeff S., Prospect

A: Jeff, I can assure you that missed free throws drive Calhoun crazy. He mentions them with the greatest of frustration after losses. He mentioned them after the Kentucky game, though briefly. Going back a few months, he was asked about whether the six-overtime game against Syracuse was exhausting and he said, "I'm not exhausted. I could practice right now. Free throws, maybe." So it drives him nuts. UConn, like many teams, ends every practice with free throw shooting drills. The Huskies always have to make a certain percentage or amount before ending practice, or they keep running laps. My thought recently is that players have been missing key second-half free throws because they are so exhausted. The core of Walker, Dyson, Edwards (who never misses), Oriakhi and Robinson have been playing quite a lot of minutes, and Dyson really puts himself through hell for 35-plus minutes a game. Not sure if that is the reason, but it's a thought.



THERE ARE MANY OTHERS...it's a coach's personal choice, but I'd say if Hall of Famer John Wooden, Hall of Famer Coach K, Hall of Famer Jim Calhoun, and likely future Hall of Famer at KU are doing it, it's probably not absurd or even a waste of time as some have portrayed it here.

It's a matter of choice by the coach.  Ours doesn't believe it's necessary, these other coaches do.  Doesn't make one right or one wrong, just different philosophy.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 30, 2009, 10:00:08 PM
It's a matter of choice by the coach.  Ours doesn't believe it's necessary, these other coaches do.  Doesn't make one right or one wrong, just different philosophy.

 Chicos that's bullcrap.  Just because that is done at the end of practice does not mean they believe "it's necessary".  You don't know what the motivation is - ever heard of team building?  i.e., We're not out of here until guys step up and do what they have to.. otherwise we'll be here all night..

 If coaches were saying, "got damn it!  we need to practice free throws an hour a day!  we keep missing 'em" that would be one thing.. but you're just making stuff up now.  Living in a world of hyperbole and nonsense is d u m b.
 
 

Quote from: Marquette84 on December 30, 2009, 10:54:58 AM
I don't think one can absolve the coach 100% in these situations. It is incumbent on the coach to provide the proper motivation so the players have confidence. Either that wasn't done, or it wasn't effective enough.  The coach has to take at least some of the blame for that.  It wasn't as if our guys looked confident and just missed a shot.  They didn't look like they believed they could win.

We don't know what Buzz said in the huddle--Did he talk about setting up quickly on defense after a miss?  That would represent a huge coaching mistake--any psych major would tell you that the language that you use in those situations is  "After Jimmy makes his 2nd shot . . . "     

I also don't buy that these are "young" or "inexperienced" players--Butler is half way through his junior year, and has been in enough close game situations to understand what is going on.  DJO is halfway through his sophomore year.  The reason you bring on a Juco is so you don't have to go through freshman jitters.  If we bring on Jucos who have to play like freshmen, we might as well just bring on freshmen.

Congratulations 84. You've raised the bar for bizarre to a new level. But at least we know you watched "Hoosiers".

Well all you have to do is read the players comments on why it is practiced....nothing bullcrap about it at all unless these players are lying.  I don't think that is the case....some coaches practice free throws During practice and some do not.  Took me about 20 seconds to find these two.  I know for a fact Ben Howland does at Ucla.  Buzz doesn't....he chooses to work on other things which is fine, too


Yes, I watch Red Eye

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 30, 2009, 10:37:10 PM
Well all you have to do is read the players comments on why it is practiced....nothing bullcrap about it at all unless these players are lying.  I don't think that is the case....some coaches practice free throws During practice and some do not.  Took me about 20 seconds to find these two.  I know for a fact Ben Howland does at Ucla.  Buzz doesn't....he chooses to work on other things which is fine, too


Yes, I watch Red Eye

  Coaches believing it's necessary is a bullcrap comment. 

But, since you watch Red Eye I consider your comment only bullcalfcrap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1ISO55E918 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1ISO55E918)

LOL...GG is great on Red Eye

Well, what can I say....obviously some coaches feel it's the right thing to do, others don't.  Different philosophies for different coaches.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 30, 2009, 11:10:24 PM
LOL...GG is great on Red Eye

Well, what can I say....obviously some coaches feel it's the right thing to do, others don't.  Different philosophies for different coaches.

  I have no problem with stating that some coaches feel free throws in practice is the right thing to do, some don't.  That is factual.
 
  I think my New Year's resolution will be have a Marquette-mention on Red Eye.  This is very doable.  I'm leaning towards a Master Baden discussion for it.  BTW - some nice gregalogues recently on climate change...

Hey Jay Bee,

You have a pretty strong feeling about this free throw situation. Are you a former basketball player or coach?

Quote from: Norm on December 30, 2009, 11:53:24 PM
Hey Jay Bee,

You have a pretty strong feeling about this free throw situation. Are you a former basketball player or coach?

  As to your question, sure.

  However, I don't really have a strong feeling about free throws during D1 practices.  I just puke when others do.

Quote from: Jay Bee on December 31, 2009, 12:07:37 AM
  As to your question, sure.

  However, I don't really have a strong feeling about free throws during D1 practices.  I just puke when others do.

So you played basketball and/or coached? What was the highest level you did either?

Quote from: Norm on December 31, 2009, 12:15:58 AM
So you played basketball and/or coached? What was the highest level you did either?

   Sure.  Why the interest, 'Norm'?  Like I said, I don't have strong feelings.. perhaps you do?  Bad xmas gifts?

Quote from: Jay Bee on December 31, 2009, 12:23:14 AM
    Sure.  Why the interest, 'Norm'?  Like I said, I don't have strong feelings.. perhaps you do?  Bad xmas gifts?

Jay Bee, I never played basketball beyond pick-up games in the backyard, so I always like to hear from those who have so I can get a better perspective. I played hockey through high school and have coached youth hockey for the past 15 years, so I am interested in the debate over whether to practice free throws in practice, as almost every thing you do in a hockey game is gone over repeatedly through the year in practice - passing, shooting, checking, power play, penalty kill, face-offs, positional play, and so on. From coaching another sport (albeit at a lower level than D-1) I find it hard to understand that somehow free throws aren't incorporated into practice so I'm interested as to why some think it is a waste of time.

Quote from: Norm on December 31, 2009, 12:31:53 AM
Jay Bee, I never played basketball beyond pick-up games in the backyard, so I always like to hear from those who have so I can get a better perspective. I played hockey through high school and have coached youth hockey for the past 15 years, so I am interested in the debate over whether to practice free throws in practice, as almost every thing you do in a hockey game is gone over repeatedly through the year in practice - passing, shooting, checking, power play, penalty kill, face-offs, positional play, and so on. From coaching another sport (albeit at a lower level than D-1) I find it hard to understand that somehow free throws aren't incorporated into practice so I'm interested as to why some think it is a waste of time.

  I'm just one guy and obviously there are differing opinions.  I think its essential to anyone's game to practice free throws - mentally.  It's like many things done in life, or in sport... get your mind right.  The best way to train yourself is dependent on the individual. 
  I just don't think there is much (or any) bang for the buck when it comes to D1 practice time to spend it on free throws.   There is no situation in hockey (or most sports) similar to the free throw in basketball. 
  An interesting study would be GPA to FT%.  Honestly.  I'm not at all suggesting there is a direct correlation or that people that make a high percentage of FT's are smart and those that don't are not as smart.. however, I would expect the correlation of GPA to FT% to be ... interesting.  In a high level study.

  In our case, take someone like DJO - he's an absolute stud with a pure stroke... it's a thing of beauty.  But, he got nervous.  It's not analogous or what I am talking about.  Indeed, it's also not something that would have been 'cured' by him practicing some shots at the end of the past few practices either.

Quote from: Jay Bee on December 30, 2009, 10:28:10 AM

Sounds like some folks think we should bring in a band and screaming fans at the end of every practice and have the fellas shoot 500 FT's each.  You're nuts.

They got these things now called speaker systems, where you can take recorded sounds and amplify them to make it sound like lots of people are being very loud, when in fact there is no crowd actually there. It's pretty cool, you should check it out.

Also, I sure hope it doesn't take the "fellas" 500 attempts to sink five free throws consecutively. That was the only free throw practice requirement anyone here has mentioned.

But otherwise you were spot-on...

Quote from: StillAWarrior on December 30, 2009, 02:32:02 PM
I'm not taking a position on whether or not MU should practice free throws a part of official practice, but I will share an interesting method that my son's coach uses.  Typically at the end of practice (or earlier in some cases if they have a bad FT shooting game), he lines all of them up on the FT line extended (i.e., stretching all the way across the court at the FT line).  He picks one to shoot.  They must make two in a row.  If they miss, the entire team must run a ladder (sprint to the base line; back pedal back to the half-court line; sprint to the base line; back pedal back to the other base line; sprint to the base line; back pedal back to the FT line extended).  If they make the first one, the coaches yell, blow whistles, etc. for the second FT.  Then he picks another one.  If he misses, same drill.  I think it's interesting because it does a couple of things.  1) there's the pressure the kids feel because they don't want to make their teammates run; and 2) they typically are pretty winded when shooting.  Their in-game FT shooting has improved.  However, these are only seventh graders, so any good coaching (and I think they are getting that) will result in improvements.  I'm not saying this is the greatest drill ever, but it does address some of the typical "in game" scenarios that are not present if someone just sits and shoots FTs.

Catholic Memorial calls running the ladder  running Marquettes  (at least when my daughter was there)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 30, 2009, 09:53:23 PM
I would not say it's absurdly stupid....DI coaches, some, still run it today.  It's all a matter of choice.

Most recently?  #1 ranked Kansas Jayhawks.  

http://www2.kusports.com/news/2009/dec/09/jayhawks-working-free-throws/

"Coach will say something like, 'If we don't make five in a row we'll have a 22 (penalty sprint),'" said KU sophomore power forward Markieff Morris.

"Thomas (Robinson) was shooting the other day, and he made four in a row," Markieff added, noting Self chose that moment to kid around in an attempt to rattle the freshman forward.

"Coach started grabbing him and said, 'You've got a nice body,' and Thomas missed the last one."

The Jayhawks (7-0) — who have hit 65 percent of their free-throw tries, compared to opponents' 66.7 percent mark heading into today's 7 p.m. home game against Radford (4-2) — do indeed practice charities extensively.

well apparently practcing or using those methods does not seem to be the answer.  Arnt your hoosiers coming on soon.  Be sure to let us all know how great your girlfriend is. 

Quote from: Jay Bee on December 31, 2009, 12:58:31 AM
  I'm just one guy and obviously there are differing opinions.  I think its essential to anyone's game to practice free throws - mentally.  It's like many things done in life, or in sport... get your mind right.  The best way to train yourself is dependent on the individual. 
  I just don't think there is much (or any) bang for the buck when it comes to D1 practice time to spend it on free throws.   There is no situation in hockey (or most sports) similar to the free throw in basketball. 
  An interesting study would be GPA to FT%.  Honestly.  I'm not at all suggesting there is a direct correlation or that people that make a high percentage of FT's are smart and those that don't are not as smart.. however, I would expect the correlation of GPA to FT% to be ... interesting.  In a high level study.

  In our case, take someone like DJO - he's an absolute stud with a pure stroke... it's a thing of beauty.  But, he got nervous.  It's not analogous or what I am talking about.  Indeed, it's also not something that would have been 'cured' by him practicing some shots at the end of the past few practices either.

I would liken free throws to 3ft putts.

Pro golfers practice a lot of 3ft putts, but they probably don't use their time with Hank Haney to work on 3ft putts. It's a drill that's easily completed on their own time.

Free throws are easily practiced on their own time... but I wouldn't mind if the coaches incorporated some pressure free throws into the end of practices once in a while.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 30, 2009, 10:34:13 PM
Congratulations 84. You've raised the bar for bizarre to a new level. But at least we know you watched "Hoosiers".

Actually confidence is one of John Wooden's core principles. You might want to try reading one of his books someday.

Sometimes I forget that raising the quality of thought to John Wooden-level is considered "bizarre" by a group of people that judge every comment through a "Crean=Evil/Buzz=Great" filter.  

If you think the notion that confidence doesn't matter--or that the coach plays no role in building it--that's your view.  I'll stick with John Wooden's view no matter how bizarre you think it is.

Finally, I'll leave you with this challenge:  Instead of basing your response solely on insulting me, can you put together a rational, and well thought out counter-argument?  Explain why you don't think confidence matters.  Tell me why you don't think the coach has any role in building or instilling confidence. Tell me what successful/HOF coaches believe that building confidence is "bizarre."

I just found it incredibly interesting that five of the top programs in the country incorporate free throws into their practice.  That's all.  Maybe it's because they are so good at everything else they have the extra time to do it during practice.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 31, 2009, 11:58:01 AM
I just found it incredibly interesting that five of the top programs in the country incorporate free throws into their practice.  

And who said we don't?


I heard the guys play knock-out to see who gets to be first in the dinner line.

free throws

we talkin free throws?

Seriously,

I have absolutely zero problem with the Buzz approach. This is something that should be worked on individually......Maybe an occasional end of practice drill as outlined by others in this thread.....

Quote from: MU_B2002 on December 31, 2009, 12:14:18 PM

And who said we don't?


I heard the guys play knock-out to see who gets to be first in the dinner line.

Buzz Williams

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 31, 2009, 12:27:32 PM
Buzz Williams

 
A chef can't give away all of his secret ingredients....  Just look at what happend to the Soup Nazi. ;)

Quote from: tower912 on December 30, 2009, 07:07:27 AM
Or.....we can blame the coach's decision to go with those    *&%^$#@$$%!@#$% light blue unis........

Wow, it is not the jerseys! come on

Quote from: Marquette84 on December 31, 2009, 11:43:30 AM
Actually confidence is one of John Wooden's core principles. You might want to try reading one of his books someday.

Sometimes I forget that raising the quality of thought to John Wooden-level is considered "bizarre" by a group of people that judge every comment through a "Crean=Evil/Buzz=Great" filter.  

If you think the notion that confidence doesn't matter--or that the coach plays no role in building it--that's your view.  I'll stick with John Wooden's view no matter how bizarre you think it is.

Finally, I'll leave you with this challenge:  Instead of basing your response solely on insulting me, can you put together a rational, and well thought out counter-argument?  Explain why you don't think confidence matters.  Tell me why you don't think the coach has any role in building or instilling confidence. Tell me what successful/HOF coaches believe that building confidence is "bizarre."

84 - You asked me in an earlier post if I was in the huddle and heard Buzz's talk with the team before Jimmy shot free throws.  No, I was not - neither were you.  To imply that Buzz didn't use the right psychology, when you weren't there is ridiculous.  We can be pretty confident Buzz didn't say, "Okay team, after Jimmy missese or chokes this free throw,  here is what we are going to do.  Common sense tells one the coach isn't going to make the above statement.

Quote from: Marquette84 on December 31, 2009, 11:43:30 AM
Actually confidence is one of John Wooden's core principles. You might want to try reading one of his books someday.

Sometimes I forget that raising the quality of thought to John Wooden-level is considered "bizarre" by a group of people that judge every comment through a "Crean=Evil/Buzz=Great" filter.  

If you think the notion that confidence doesn't matter--or that the coach plays no role in building it--that's your view.  I'll stick with John Wooden's view no matter how bizarre you think it is.

Finally, I'll leave you with this challenge:  Instead of basing your response solely on insulting me, can you put together a rational, and well thought out counter-argument?  Explain why you don't think confidence matters.  Tell me why you don't think the coach has any role in building or instilling confidence. Tell me what successful/HOF coaches believe that building confidence is "bizarre."

How can you ask me to explain and defend a position ("confidence doesn't matter") that I never espoused? Of course confidence matters. Building it is a day to day process and is mostly the responsibility of the individual. Can a good coach/mentor help? Sure. He does that by putting his players in situations where they are most likely to succeed. A good example would be Buzz's terrific game plan and in game adjustments vs West Virginia. But don't take my word for it. Go to the Dodds board and read the comments from our opponent's fanbase.

I have no idea what Buzz said to the team before DJO's and Butler's free throws and neither do you. Unlike you, I hope he prepared the team for all of the possible contingencies (make 2, make 1, or miss) rather than resorting to some psych 1 movie script bs. Wrap yourself in John Wooden all you want but I find it hard to believe he and his teams had no plan in the event of a missed free throw at crunch time. If they didn't that's a definition of bad coaching.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 31, 2009, 03:35:44 PM
How can you ask me to explain and defend a position ("confidence doesn't matter") that I never espoused? Of course confidence matters. Building it is a day to day process and is mostly the responsibility of the individual. Can a good coach/mentor help? Sure. He does that by putting his players in situations where they are most likely to succeed. A good example would be Buzz's terrific game plan and in game adjustments vs West Virginia. But don't take my word for it. Go to the Dodds board and read the comments from our opponent's fanbase.

I have no idea what Buzz said to the team before DJO's and Butler's free throws and neither do you. Unlike you, I hope he prepared the team for all of the possible contingencies (make 2, make 1, or miss) rather than resorting to some psych 1 movie script bs. Wrap yourself in John Wooden all you want but I find it hard to believe he and his teams had no plan in the event of a missed free throw at crunch time. If they didn't that's a definition of bad coaching.

Amen Lenny!  Perfectly said.  Can you post the link to the Dodd's site/comments from WVU fans.  I'm pretty new here and am not familiar with Dodd's site.

Quote from: Ners on December 31, 2009, 04:35:26 PM
  Amen Lenny!  Perfectly said.  Can you post the link to the Dodd's site/comments from WVU fans.  I'm pretty new here and am not familiar with Dodd's site.

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415&f=2850&t=5365534   


http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415&f=2850&t=5367403

Thanks for your kind words. Here are a couple of links. There's also a discussion over there with just MU fans talking about the job Buzz did but I don't have the link.

Quote from: Ners on December 31, 2009, 02:00:51 PM
84 - You asked me in an earlier post if I was in the huddle and heard Buzz's talk with the team before Jimmy shot free throws.  No, I was not - neither were you.  To imply that Buzz didn't use the right psychology, when you weren't there is ridiculous.  We can be pretty confident Buzz didn't say, "Okay team, after Jimmy missese or chokes this free throw,  here is what we are going to do.  Common sense tells one the coach isn't going to make the above statement.

Of course you weren't there--so why are you going after me?

All I said was that you cannot 100% absolve the coach in this situation.  You seem to be treating me as if I said the coach deserves 100% of the blame--which is not the case.  All I'm saying is that we don't know enough to give him a complete pass.

If you think the coach CAN be 100% absolved from all blame without actually being in the huddle, please do that instead of continuing to attack me.

Quote from: Marquette84 on December 31, 2009, 06:37:14 PM
Of course you weren't there--so why are you going after me?

All I said was that you cannot 100% absolve the coach in this situation.  You seem to be treating me as if I said the coach deserves 100% of the blame--which is not the case.  All I'm saying is that we don't know enough to give him a complete pass.

If you think the coach CAN be 100% absolved from all blame without actually being in the huddle, please do that instead of continuing to attack me.

Since none of us are ever in the huddle, we can never 100% absolve any coach when something goes wrong. Even when something goes right we can't be 100% sure the coach didn't say the wrong thing in the huddle. So every time there is a huddle, one can say we can't say with 100% accuracy the coach didn't say something stupid. So what's your point?

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 31, 2009, 03:35:44 PM

How can you ask me to explain and defend a position ("confidence doesn't matter") that I never espoused?

Of course confidence matters

Well this was MY position--and you called is "bizarre."   Therefore, I concluded that you thought opposite.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 31, 2009, 03:35:44 PM

I have no idea what Buzz said to the team before DJO's and Butler's free throws and neither do you.

Again--that was MY point.  The quote: "I don't think one can absolve the coach 100% in these situations."

Why is that such a "bizarre" statement?  You admit you weren't there.  There were exactly three possibilities--one (and only one) of the following is true:

a) Buzz did everything right and can be absolved 100% from any responsibility.
b) Buzz didn't do everything he could have, and thus shares responsibility with Butler & DJO.
c) Maybe Buzz actually said something (even inadvertently) that got in Butler's or DJO's head and led to the miss, and therefore deserves much of the blame.

You weren't there--you don't know which is correct.

Neither do I--but I'm not the one concluding that the coach is not to blame.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 31, 2009, 03:35:44 PM

psych 1 movie script bs.

I'm not going to debate you further on the psychology of basketball.  We're just going to disagree.  I think Al was a master of using psychology to get in the heads of his own players as well as the other team (and the other team's coach).  Wooden has made it one of the basic tenets of his theory.  Every great coach is also a great motivator.  Every great coach makes building confidence in his players a hallmark of his coaching.  I can't think of a single successful coach who is not a great motivator.

If you think its just "movie script bs" we're simply going to disagree on that.

Quote from: Marquette84 on December 31, 2009, 07:19:29 PM
Well this was MY position--and you called is "bizarre."   Therefore, I concluded that you thought opposite.



Again--that was MY point.  The quote: "I don't think one can absolve the coach 100% in these situations."

Why is that such a "bizarre" statement?  You admit you weren't there.  There were exactly three possibilities--one (and only one) of the following is true:

a) Buzz did everything right and can be absolved 100% from any responsibility.
b) Buzz didn't do everything he could have, and thus shares responsibility with Butler & DJO.
c) Maybe Buzz actually said something (even inadvertently) that got in Butler's or DJO's head and led to the miss, and therefore deserves much of the blame.

You weren't there--you don't know which is correct.

Neither do I--but I'm not the one concluding that the coach is not to blame.


I'm not going to debate you further on the psychology of basketball.  We're just going to disagree.  I think Al was a master of using psychology to get in the heads of his own players as well as the other team (and the other team's coach).  Wooden has made it one of the basic tenets of his theory.  Every great coach is also a great motivator.  Every great coach makes building confidence in his players a hallmark of his coaching.  I can't think of a single successful coach who is not a great motivator.

If you think its just "movie script bs" we're simply going to disagree on that.

You are a master at taking a phrase or a sentence out of context instead of addressing the totality of someone's arguement. This makes having any meaningful discussion or dialogue impossible. Happy New Year anyway.

Quote from: Marquette84 on December 31, 2009, 06:37:14 PM
Of course you weren't there--so why are you going after me?

All I said was that you cannot 100% absolve the coach in this situation.  You seem to be treating me as if I said the coach deserves 100% of the blame--which is not the case.  All I'm saying is that we don't know enough to give him a complete pass.

If you think the coach CAN be 100% absolved from all blame without actually being in the huddle, please do that instead of continuing to attack me.

First things first, my intention was not to belittle you, but rather question the validity of your statements.  The reason I was going after you, is because you were completely SPECULATING on what was said/wasn't said.  You acknowledge you were not there, so to imply that Buzz couldn't be completely absolved of any blame - well that was just speculation on your part.  Furthermore, I completely agree with what Lenny has posted - it is never a a bad idea to covera all possible scenarios at end of game free throw situations.  I don't think anyone denies that building a kids confidence as a coach, is part of the coaches job..but there is nothing tahat can be drawn from the end of this WVU game or Buzz's phillosophy of you get your confidence through your work, and the harder you work, the more confident you become.  We know these kids work their A$$ off and compete like almost no other team in America.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 31, 2009, 05:06:47 PM
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415&f=2850&t=5365534   


http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=415&f=2850&t=5367403

Thanks for your kind words. Here are a couple of links. There's also a discussion over there with just MU fans talking about the job Buzz did but I don't have the link.

Thanks for posting these Lenny - and you are welcome for the kind words - your post(s) just make a lot of sense  84- will hopefully come around in 2010!

Quote from: Ners on January 01, 2010, 10:31:12 AM
Furthermore, I completely agree with what Lenny has posted - it is never a a bad idea to covera all possible scenarios at end of game free throw situations.  I don't think anyone denies that building a kids confidence as a coach, is part of the coaches job..but there is nothing tahat can be drawn from the end of this WVU game or Buzz's phillosophy of you get your confidence through your work, and the harder you work, the more confident you become.  We know these kids work their A$$ off and compete like almost no other team in America.

Fine.  For the sake of argument  I'll accept your and Lenny's speculation that Buzz didn't say anything that may have gotten in the heads of Butler or DJO.  I wasn't there, so we have to accept your speculation.  

Now then--you and Lenny have both made a strong case that Buzz needed to discuss the missed FT strategy.  

Since we know how the game ended, doesn't it suggest that either Buzz forgot to review the missed FT strategy, or that the defensive scheme he devised was ineffective?   Can we absolve Buzz 100% like some of the earlier posters tried to do?  Or does he share some of the blame?

Quote from: Marquette84 on January 01, 2010, 12:59:10 PM
Fine.  For the sake of argument  I'll accept your and Lenny's speculation that Buzz didn't say anything that may have gotten in the heads of Butler or DJO.  I wasn't there, so we have to accept your speculation.  

Now then--you and Lenny have both made a strong case that Buzz needed to discuss the missed FT strategy.  

Since we know how the game ended, doesn't it suggest that either Buzz forgot to review the missed FT strategy, or that the defensive scheme he devised was ineffective?   Can we absolve Buzz 100% like some of the earlier posters tried to do?  Or does he share some of the blame?

When DJO missed the free throw we led by 3 with 20+ seconds left. Proper strategy is to guard the 3 point line aggressively which is what DJO was doing when his man blew by him for the dunk. Right strategy, poor execution. When Butler missed with 10 seconds left we got back, Lazar played great on ball defense and forced an extremely difficult shot. Right strategy, good execution. Unfortunately, the turnaround, fadeaway 20 footer went in.

Quote from: Marquette84 on January 01, 2010, 12:59:10 PM
Fine.  For the sake of argument  I'll accept your and Lenny's speculation that Buzz didn't say anything that may have gotten in the heads of Butler or DJO.  I wasn't there, so we have to accept your speculation.  

Now then--you and Lenny have both made a strong case that Buzz needed to discuss the missed FT strategy.  

Since we know how the game ended, doesn't it suggest that either Buzz forgot to review the missed FT strategy, or that the defensive scheme he devised was ineffective?   Can we absolve Buzz 100% like some of the earlier posters tried to do?  Or does he share some of the blame?

Once again I'm going to agree with Lenny on this one 84.  The cliche seems to ring true here, tha:  coaches coach and players play.  My personal opinion was that ZAR defended Desean Butler about as well as you could at the end of the game.  He turned him twice in his dribble upcourt, defended him the whole way up the court (which erases time), and forced Butler into a fadeaway 21 foot shot that went in.  Combine that with the fluke shot at halftime by Ebanks...and sometimes luck just isn't on your side, and coaching doesn't really have a whole lot to do with it.  That said, you are entitled to your opinion on this matter, and understand my intention wasn't to belittle you...but just that I had  a very different opionion about the end of game/Buzz's coaching.  I think we are doing GREAT this year, considering all that was lost, the injuries, transfer, schedule up to this point.  I am a BIG BUZZ Williams fan..think he has done a phenomonal job so far.  Therefore I probably react a little defensively to anyone questioning his coaching or the job he has done so far.

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2010, 09:44:02 AM

Once again I'm going to agree with Lenny on this one 84.  The cliche seems to ring true here, tha:  coaches coach and players play.  My personal opinion was that ZAR defended Desean Butler about as well as you could at the end of the game.  He turned him twice in his dribble upcourt, defended him the whole way up the court (which erases time), and forced Butler into a fadeaway 21 foot shot that went in.

Lazar did a decent job--individually.  However, if the play was supposed to get a defensive stop, clearing the court to play one-on-one wasn't the way to do it.

First, nobody but Lazar even attempted to go for the rebound--at the same time there was no hustle to set up on defense either.  Others stood around watching Lazar go for the ball.  Why wasn't another player nearby to double Butler?  Why didn't we try and force him to pass out of it.  WVU's weakness is a lack of ball handlers--and we gave them a pass.  Butler was completely free to dribble out after the board unimpeded.  No fault of Haywards--one defender can't stop a player by himself if that player still has his dribble and isn't boxed in by the sideline/endline. 

Second, if you're going to try an stop someone in the backcourt, what good was Lazar going to do by himself?  You are highly unlikely to get a backcourt stop with just one person. Where was Lazar trying to drive Butler?  To the sideline?  No one set up there to cut that off.  To the middle?  Nobody there either. 

Third, our defense was extremely disorganized -- to quote a oft used term on this board, our guys looked lost.  Look at Butler coming downcourt on the last play--he completely lost his man, then got stuck indecisively trying to decide if he should continue to look for his own player or helping on Butler on the shot. 

Finally, look at the positioning of WVU's rebounders as the shot was going up.  Even if he missed, there wasn't a blue shirt near the basket that could have secured the board.  WVU would have the ball within 3 feet, wide open, and 2 seconds left.  I'm sure you could simply say that's the players fault--but I have to think a veteran coach like Huggins had stressed rebounding (both the FT and a possible putback) in his huddle.   I'm not saying Buzz didn't stress it--but we don't know enough to conclude that it's all the players fault either. 

Ditto with the previous play--Lenny claimed that DJO was closely guarding the 3 point line as a good strategy--except Ebanks is a .200 point shooter (3 of 15 on the season).  He's much more dangerous on the drive--so a good strategy would have been to have DJO sag to prevent the drive, and challenged him to take the outside shot.  But even if holding the 3 point line is a good strategy--your plan has to call for a second defender to cover should he get beat out there.  Instead, we had three defenders on the far side of the court--which left a wide open path for Ebanks to drive.   Again, we don't know if a player blew a defensive assignment, or if they weren't properly coached.  I'm not trying to pin this 100% on Buzz--but we can't absolve him of blame either. 

If he truly did ask a player to defend the 3 point line for a .200 shooter, then I'll move the needle a bit. 

Quote from: Ners on January 02, 2010, 09:44:02 AM
That said, you are entitled to your opinion on this matter, and understand my intention wasn't to belittle you...but just that I had  a very different opionion about the end of game/Buzz's coaching.  I think we are doing GREAT this year, considering all that was lost, the injuries, transfer, schedule up to this point.  I am a BIG BUZZ Williams fan..think he has done a phenomonal job so far.  Therefore I probably react a little defensively to anyone questioning his coaching or the job he has done so far.

Buzz has done a good job, but he's not beyond criticism.  And this is coming from someone who preferred Buzz over just about any other candidate save Sean Miller and Tony Bennett. 

For years the record in close games has been a proxy for bench coaching skills.  Mike Deane was regarded as a excellent bench coach because of he managed to win more close games than he lost.  Tom Crean was regarded as a step down because his record in close games wasn't as strong. 

There are three close losses this year that he shares at least some of the blame (FSU, NC State and WVU).  That's not to say he didn't put a masterful gameplan together against WVU--he did, and nothing I said took that away.  But you can't stick your head in the sand and pretend that the last minute was wonderfully coached.  There was too much confusion, too much hesitancy, a curious strategy on the last two defensive plays, and too much playing not to lose rather than playing to win to say that it was all on the players and the coach did everything right.

And I don't think holding this opinion warrants the type of personal insults that you and Lenny and Hayward inserted into the thread.     

And we miss more crucial free throws against Nova. Two huge ones by DJO in the closing minutes and even one by Lazar with the game tied.

Quote from: WarriorHal on January 02, 2010, 05:08:09 PM
And we miss more crucial free throws against Nova. Two huge ones by DJO in the closing minutes and even one by Lazar with the game tied.

I will take 80.8% from the line just about any day, but yes the misses were in big spots.  DJO did not seem very pleased with himself after he missed that first one.

DJO didn't have a good game today in any respect.  So he missed the free throws, which is how he was playing today.  I think he is the BEast leader in 3 pointers (like 59%), but I don't think he hit one todayl  Off game for himn as he has been outstanding lately.

Avanti.  Forward.  Georgetown is next.

Quote from: MU_B2002 on January 02, 2010, 07:27:49 PM

I will take 80.8% from the line just about any day, but yes the misses were in big spots.  DJO did not seem very pleased with himself after he missed that first one.

I'd still love to know what our FT% is in the last 2 minutes.  Anyone know?

26-40

65%

Note: I can't believe I just went through the play by play, for every game, to answer your question.

Quote from: MU_B2002 on January 02, 2010, 08:27:08 PM
26-40

65%

Note: I can't believe I just went through the play by play, for every game, to answer your question.

Thanks for doing that.  I can't remember what time frame they used to use...is it last 2 minutes or 4 minutes for "crunch time"?  (Don't worry, don't compute it....appreciate the effort).

Basically our FT% then goes down a few points during crunch time which isn't a total surprise considering the inexperience on the team.  I'm sure the more veteran teams have a percentage that actually goes up in the last couple of minutes.....hopefully that will come.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on January 02, 2010, 10:31:04 PM
Thanks for doing that.  I can't remember what time frame they used to use...is it last 2 minutes or 4 minutes for "crunch time"?  (Don't worry, don't compute it....appreciate the effort).

Basically our FT% then goes down a few points during crunch time which isn't a total surprise considering the inexperience on the team.  I'm sure the more veteran teams have a percentage that actually goes up in the last couple of minutes.....hopefully that will come.

Yeah, it's not a good number either way, but it's also not the total collapse either. Team is shooting 72.4% from the year from the line. Last year's team shot 72.8% from the line, so not far off from last year's team either thus far. 

Also, for those complaining about our current coach not practicing FTs, our predecessor coach's last 2 teams shot 66.9% and 70.6% in his last 2 years (2006-2007 and 2007-2008).  Not sure if he practiced FTs or not, but for the most part, what you are as a FT shooter by the time you get to college is what you're gonna be IMO.

Quote from: Tom Crean's Tanning Bed on January 02, 2010, 10:40:02 PM
Yeah, it's not a good number either way, but it's also not the total collapse either. Team is shooting 72.4% from the year from the line. Last year's team shot 72.8% from the line, so not far off from last year's team either thus far. 

Also, for those complaining about our current coach not practicing FTs, our predecessor coach's last 2 teams shot 66.9% and 70.6% in his last 2 years (2006-2007 and 2007-2008).  Not sure if he practiced FTs or not, but for the most part, what you are as a FT shooter by the time you get to college is what you're gonna be IMO.

I'd be interested in knowing what our crunch time free throws were in those last few years under the former coach.

The former, now departed had DJ as a point guard for 3 season; 'nough said about free throw percentages.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on January 02, 2010, 10:57:32 PM
The former, now departed had DJ as a point guard for 3 season; 'nough said about free throw percentages.

Actually, if you look at DJ's free throw % it went down dramatically his senior year.  You might want to change your hypothesis.   :D


DJ shot 46.1% his senior year

He shot 65.2% from his Freshman to Junior years and improved EVERY year by about 1 point.

I've never seen a player improve 3 straight years in FT's and then go down almost 20 percentage points his last year in FTs.  Never seen it, but I'm sure it's happened somewhere.

Quote from: MU_B2002 on January 02, 2010, 07:27:49 PM

I will take 80.8% from the line just about any day, but yes the misses were in big spots.  DJO did not seem very pleased with himself after he missed that first one.

He to me looked like a guy at the line that was talking to himself instead of just shooting. After he missed the first free throw today combined with what happened against WV, i knew he would miss the second one. Free throw shooting is nothing more than a muscle memory exercise. Late in close games, it doesn't take much nerves wise to throw off a shooters mechanics, especially when they have time to just stand there and think about not missing them.

If a guy has to hit say a late jumper instead, they have the flow of everything going on to stop them from thinking about shooting the ball correctly, it's just elevate and shoot like they've done countless times. Muscle memory takes over. Standing on that free throw line though late in close games is entirely a different story. It's just you and all eyes are on you. You have time where your brain can start messing with you. Fans are either screaming or dead quiet. I've never played college ball and won't claim high school is the same, but i've been in that spot and choked. It affected me for a few games afterwards each time i went to the line and the game was close. I'd think about keeping my mechanics right instead of just shooting. I no longer was confident i'd make them even though i was a good free throw shooter.

Man that feeling sucks standing there and thinking over and over, please don't miss this in your own head and knowing you likely will.

Quote from: El Duderino on January 03, 2010, 01:13:39 AM


Man that feeling sucks standing there and thinking over and over, please don't miss this in your own head and knowing you likely will.

Kind of like standing on a tee box in front of water thinking, "i am going to be fine as long as I don't hit it in the water..." splash.