MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: chapman on December 19, 2009, 10:27:44 AM
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Feels very strongly that Pitt and the other Big East football schools should stay put...
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=4752834
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While I realize that this a BB board, I have to post about the arrogance of Noter Dame. They turned down the Big 10 in 1999 and the word is that they did it again now, as the Big 10 is looking to expand.
This is just another example of the arrogance of the ND football fans. The program has steadily deteriorated, even though they play a pansy schedule, and they would be a natural fit for the Big 10, they have dissed the conference twice. I know a number of ND fans who say that if they ever go to a conference for football (most prefer not), it would be a better fir for the Big east. When asked why, several respond that they could dominate in the Big East Football.
That tells volumes about their arrogance, because they know that ND would be middle of the pack in the Big 10 football.
I do believe that the BEast is at par or slightly above the Big 10 in basketball, but football is not.
ND fans are for the most part arrogant.
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ND fans are for the most part arrogant.
Really? I hadn't noticed. I would actually restate that as, "Notre Dame students and alumni are arrogant pretty boys." Not all of their fans matriculated at the university. In fact, most of their fans have probably never been to Indiana.
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Why should they walk away from a TV contract with NBC that was recently extended to 2015? Too much money to throw away.
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Why should they walk away from a TV contract with NBC that was recently extended to 2015? Too much money to throw away.
I think that this is one of the biggest misconceptions out there. Notre Dame's athletic director admitted recently that TV revenue from the Big Ten would exceed the NBC contract ND currently has.
Refusing to join comes down to two things:
(1) Wanting to keep national rivalries intact (see USC, etc.).
(2) A warped vision of a Notre Dame that existed circa 1990 and before.
All that said, if there is a monetary incentive to stay out of the conferences, it is the BCS money. Notre Dame doesn't have to share BCS money with anyone. So, if they make a BCS Bowl every few years, it more than makes up for the years they don't make it. But, with the recent success, or lack thereof, you have to wonder just how feasible this idea is.
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having every home game guaranteed to be nationally broadcasted is a huge deal for recruiting though. And lets face it, they need all the help they can get when they have to sell the fact that their school is located in South Bend.
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I can't see why Notre Dame would want to join the Big Ten. It's a fine regional conference, but ND doesn't seem to match the profile. Besides the financial considerations (and, make no mistake about it, the only reason the Big Ten wants ND is for the money), I can think of at least a couple reasons why ND would resist Delaney's pleas:
Notre Dame's appeal is national in scope. The Big Ten's brand is regional. Why would ND want to limit it's national following by filling its schedule with regional games?
Notre Dame is private and far smaller w/r/t student population. With the exception of Northwestern, the Big Ten schools are large and public. That distinction is likely the reason for vastly different "mission statements" concerning student-athletes. The numbers suggest that graduation rates for student-athletes matter at places like Marquette and Notre Dame and significantly less at places like Ohio State and Wisconsin. Why would ND want to join a conference that, as a collective, does such a deplorable job of getting its football players quality educations?
I don't think Notre Dame is being arrogant, I think it's being smart. That being said, if Delaney backs up a truck full of cash to Touchdown Jesus, we'll see how principled Notre Dame remains.
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The numbers suggest that graduation rates for student-athletes matter at places like Marquette and Notre Dame and significantly less at places like Ohio State and Wisconsin.
How dare you write such hateful words! The University of Wisconsin - Madison has a stellar track record of matriculating student athletes. Your comment is nothing less than a slap to the face of the Harvard of the Kettle Moraine! How dare you!
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The numbers suggest that graduation rates for student-athletes matter at places like Marquette and Notre Dame and significantly less at places like Ohio State and Wisconsin. Why would ND want to join a conference that, as a collective, does such a deplorable job of getting its football players quality educations?
Post the graduation percentages, per school, per sport. I've never looked into it, but I don't believe it.
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Sorry for the delay, haven't been around in awhile. To answer your question and address your skepticism . . . 2009 football grad rates for the schools I mentioned:
Ohio State: 62
Wisconsin: 65
Notre Dame: 96
This info, as well as the GSRs for all other sports and schools, is public and can be accessed at the NCAA's site.
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Does anyone?
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The Big Ten is like the missionary position...its still basketball, just not as fun.
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Sorry for the delay, haven't been around in awhile. To answer your question and address your skepticism . . . 2009 football grad rates for the schools I mentioned:
Ohio State: 62
Wisconsin: 65
Notre Dame: 96
This info, as well as the GSRs for all other sports and schools, is public and can be accessed at the NCAA's site.
96% shocks me... To be honest, I don't know what to make of that number...ND graduates 95% of it's regular students. I'm not sure what that says. I will admit I was dead wrong in assuming their graduation rates were similar to UW; however, I still don't agree with your original posts about ND not wanting to affiliate with the Big 10 because of football graduation rates. I'd be proud of a degree from most Big 10 schools.
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The Big Ten is like the missionary position...its still basketball, just not as fun.
You clearly don't like disciplined basketball and the beauty of a good screen and 87 short passes per possession. :)
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96% shocks me... To be honest, I don't know what to make of that number...ND graduates 95% of it's regular students. I'm not sure what that says. I will admit I was dead wrong in assuming their graduation rates were similar to UW; however, I still don't agree with your original posts about ND not wanting to affiliate with the Big 10 because of football graduation rates. I'd be proud of a degree from most Big 10 schools.
And I'm not suggesting that one shouldn't be proud of a degree from a Big Ten school. I am saying, however, that many (note: not all, just the vast majority, Northwestern being the obvious exception) of the Big Ten schools don't do an adequate job of getting their student athletes, in particular football and men's basketball players, those degrees. Perhaps that's a recruiting issue, an academic support problem, a systemic failure, or a combination of all of those things, but the numbers don't lie. W/r/t Notre Dame and the Big Ten, my point is simply that a "lack of commitment to educating student athletes" (for lack of a better phrase) is one amongst at least a few reasons why Notre Dame may hesitate.
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While I realize that this a BB board, I have to post about the arrogance of Noter Dame. They turned down the Big 10 in 1999 and the word is that they did it again now, as the Big 10 is looking to expand.
This is just another example of the arrogance of the ND football fans. The program has steadily deteriorated, even though they play a pansy schedule, and they would be a natural fit for the Big 10, they have dissed the conference twice. I know a number of ND fans who say that if they ever go to a conference for football (most prefer not), it would be a better fir for the Big east. When asked why, several respond that they could dominate in the Big East Football.
That tells volumes about their arrogance, because they know that ND would be middle of the pack in the Big 10 football.
I do believe that the BEast is at par or slightly above the Big 10 in basketball, but football is not.
ND fans are for the most part arrogant.
I can see that. Think before you talk. Let's put aside the fact that it makes absolutely zero financial sense for ND to join the Big Ten. The bigger issue is back in the day, Notre Dame tried to join the Big Ten and institutions like Michigan publicly made it known that they did not want ND in the Big Ten because it was a Catholic school. So now, when the Big Ten comes crawling back to ND, I can understand why they are flipping them the bird. As a Marquette Alum, Catholic, and ND football fan, I flip the Big Ten the bird too. Arrogance has SOOO little to do with the situation.
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I can see that. Think before you talk. Let's put aside the fact that it makes absolutely zero financial sense for ND to join the Big Ten. The bigger issue is back in the day, Notre Dame tried to join the Big Ten and institutions like Michigan publicly made it known that they did not want ND in the Big Ten because it was a Catholic school. So now, when the Big Ten comes crawling back to ND, I can understand why they are flipping them the bird. As a Marquette Alum, Catholic, and ND football fan, I flip the Big Ten the bird too. Arrogance has SOOO little to do with the situation.
Well, academics was one of the biggest reasons. All 11 members of the Big Ten are part of the Association of American Universities. Notre Dame is not. The university presidents wanted the next member to be part of the AAU as well. They finally made an exception to let Notre Dame in, but it did not sit well with the presidents of those schools.
Note that Rutgers, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, and Missouri are part of AAU and each has been mentioned as possible candidates. The AAU is a very prestigious group.
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Best. Screen Name. Ever.
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If you are looking to waste some time this is an interesting look at the candidates for Big Ten expansion.
http://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2009/12/27/the-big-ten-expansion-index-a-different-shade-of-orange/
I've got my money on Syracuse.
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I certainly hope that this conference stays in contact at the current 16 teams. Competitive from top to bottom in basketball (most of the way anyways... Depaul) and their football programs all seem to be coming along nicely as well. I agree with Dixon that "it just keeps getting better"
People were concerned with how a 16 team league would work when we C-USA schools joined the BEAST, but it's worked wonderfully and would be a shame to lose.
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And I'm not suggesting that one shouldn't be proud of a degree from a Big Ten school. I am saying, however, that many (note: not all, just the vast majority, Northwestern being the obvious exception) of the Big Ten schools don't do an adequate job of getting their student athletes, in particular football and men's basketball players, those degrees. Perhaps that's a recruiting issue, an academic support problem, a systemic failure, or a combination of all of those things, but the numbers don't lie. W/r/t Notre Dame and the Big Ten, my point is simply that a "lack of commitment to educating student athletes" (for lack of a better phrase) is one amongst at least a few reasons why Notre Dame may hesitate.
That's ridiculous. Why would Notre Dame care how the other schools support their student athletes?
And those graduation rates pretty much mirror their overall graduation rates...I don't think you can ask more than that.
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If you are looking to waste some time this is an interesting look at the candidates for Big Ten expansion.
http://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2009/12/27/the-big-ten-expansion-index-a-different-shade-of-orange/
I've got my money on Syracuse.
I still think it's Rutgers or Missouri.
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If it's Rutgers, let's not replace them with Memphis. No need to take out a "bad" team and insert a "good" team.
Army?
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If it is Rutgers or Syracue, or Pitt, I think stategically speaking we want a team like Memphis that can help us out on the Western edge of the conference. I think it was Majerus that was concerned that we would have a tough time recruiting mid west kids to play in an East coast league, and while we have certainly held our own so far, it would probably help to have another Central time zone team in the conference.
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If it's Rutgers, let's not replace them with Memphis. No need to take out a "bad" team and insert a "good" team.
Army?
My bigger worry is that they could take 3 teams and make a 14 team league, or God forbid take 5 teams. I have a few friends that are involved and it's one of the many ideas being thrown around.
If they expand by more than 1, all bets are off.
If it's just 1, I'd prefer to go after Boston College and get them back into the fold. I don't see how BC has benefited from the ACC, but maybe they think they have.
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That's ridiculous. Why would Notre Dame care how the other schools support their student athletes?
Here's one reason: When you join a conference, the needs and wants of the many supplant the needs and wants of the few. The majority will make the decisions and, were it to join the Big Ten and seek to maintain its high academic standards for student athletes, Notre Dame would run the very real risk of being on the wrong end of 11-1 and 10-2 decisions when those decisions relate to things such as conference academic standards and compliance.
As a matter of fact, right now, the Big Ten is evaluating whether it needs to change certain of its practices and rules in order to address the NCAA's Academic Progress Rates - which holds universities accountable for the academic progress of student athletes by imposing concrete consequences (e.g., loss of scholarships) for those institutions that do not satisfy the NCAA's requirements. Just like every Big Ten university cares about what the Big Ten will (or will not) do to move towards voluntary compliance with APR (consistent with its track record and philosophy, likely the Big Ten will do little or nothing), so too would Notre Dame if it was a member of that conference. But, on educating student athletes, Notre Dame's philosophy diverges from that of the Big Ten collective.
According to the numbers, the land-grant institutions of the Big Ten really don't give a rip about the academic side of things when it comes to their athletes. I appreciate that you apparently dislike Notre Dame. Fine. But irrespective of your personal feelings, that school, much like ours (presuming you're a Marquette grad), educates and graduates its student athletes at a commendable rate. With a single (or perhaps a couple) noted exception(s), the institutions of the Big Ten don't. In a nutshell: Notre Dame and the Big Ten have radically different "needs and wants" w/r/t educating student athletes. That matters when you want to excel on the playing field AND in the classroom. And that's but one reason why "Notre Dame would care how the other schools support their student athletes."
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While I realize that this a BB board, I have to post about the arrogance of Noter Dame. They turned down the Big 10 in 1999 and the word is that they did it again now, as the Big 10 is looking to expand.
This is just another example of the arrogance of the ND football fans. The program has steadily deteriorated, even though they play a pansy schedule, and they would be a natural fit for the Big 10, they have dissed the conference twice. I know a number of ND fans who say that if they ever go to a conference for football (most prefer not), it would be a better fir for the Big east. When asked why, several respond that they could dominate in the Big East Football.
That tells volumes about their arrogance, because they know that ND would be middle of the pack in the Big 10 football.
I do believe that the BEast is at par or slightly above the Big 10 in basketball, but football is not.
ND fans are for the most part arrogant.
I don't understand why you are so bitter about ND not wanting to join the Big Ten. It wouldn't provide much benefit to their program and like a previous poster mentioned, they want to maintain the existing rivalries they already have. If ND fans were in favor of joining a conference for football, which very few are, it would definitely not be the Big East. As for the schedule they play: 7 or 8 bowl eligible teams is hardly pansy. Perhaps Northern Illinois and Wofford are more to your liking?
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Here's one reason: When you join a conference, the needs and wants of the many supplant the needs and wants of the few. The majority will make the decisions and, were it to join the Big Ten and seek to maintain its high academic standards for student athletes, Notre Dame would run the very real risk of being on the wrong end of 11-1 and 10-2 decisions when those decisions relate to things such as conference academic standards and compliance.
As a matter of fact, right now, the Big Ten is evaluating whether it needs to change certain of its practices and rules in order to address the NCAA's Academic Progress Rates - which holds universities accountable for the academic progress of student athletes by imposing concrete consequences (e.g., loss of scholarships) for those institutions that do not satisfy the NCAA's requirements. Just like every Big Ten university cares about what the Big Ten will (or will not) do to move towards voluntary compliance with APR (consistent with its track record and philosophy, likely the Big Ten will do little or nothing), so too would Notre Dame if it was a member of that conference. But, on educating student athletes, Notre Dame's philosophy diverges from that of the Big Ten collective.
According to the numbers, the land-grant institutions of the Big Ten really don't give a rip about the academic side of things when it comes to their athletes. I appreciate that you apparently dislike Notre Dame. Fine. But irrespective of your personal feelings, that school, much like ours (presuming you're a Marquette grad), educates and graduates its student athletes at a commendable rate. With a single (or perhaps a couple) noted exception(s), the institutions of the Big Ten don't. In a nutshell: Notre Dame and the Big Ten have radically different "needs and wants" w/r/t educating student athletes. That matters when you want to excel on the playing field AND in the classroom. And that's but one reason why "Notre Dame would care how the other schools support their student athletes."
In other words, they wouldn't be able to compete on the field with the Big Ten. *That's* the real reason. You can write it off as a different philosophy on supporting student athletes all you want, but when it comes down to it, the real reason is that they wouldn't succeed.
Because honestly the rates aren't all that different...each Big Ten school is 78% and above...which is way above their at-large graduation rates. And other schools with high rates have had plenty of success...Boston College, Wake Forest, etc.
Just add it to the list of excuses that Notre Dame comes up with to explain away their poor performance.
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I don't understand why you are so bitter about ND not wanting to join the Big Ten. It wouldn't provide much benefit to their program and like a previous poster mentioned, they want to maintain the existing rivalries they already have. If ND fans were in favor of joining a conference for football, which very few are, it would definitely not be the Big East. As for the schedule they play: 7 or 8 bowl eligible teams is hardly pansy. Perhaps Northern Illinois and Wofford are more to your liking?
Considering how poorly Notre Dame has done against the Big East in football, I don't blame them for wanting to stay away. ;D
Lost to Pittsburgh twice
Lost to UCONN
Lost to Syracuse
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In other words, they wouldn't be able to compete on the field with the Big Ten. *That's* the real reason. You can write it off as a different philosophy on supporting student athletes all you want, but when it comes down to it, the real reason is that they wouldn't succeed.
Because honestly the rates aren't all that different...each Big Ten school is 78% and above...which is way above their at-large graduation rates. And other schools with high rates have had plenty of success...Boston College, Wake Forest, etc.
Just add it to the list of excuses that Notre Dame comes up with to explain away their poor performance.
Oh, I see your point now: you don't like Notre Dame. Got it.
But that has nothing to do with my point: one reason why Notre Dame football has shunned the Big Ten again is because of the Big Ten's ongoing failure to educate and graduate its football players at an (in my opinion) acceptable level. That's the issue. Is Notre Dame being idealistic? Maybe. Commendable? Maybe. Stupid? Maybe. Is the Big Ten being realistic? Maybe. Overly pragmatic? Maybe. Fiscally responsible? Maybe. But those questions are beside the point. What I'm positing is that Notre Dame's and the (as a collective) Big Ten's philosophies when it comes to educating football players differ significantly. And, given the nature of the beasts (i.e., institutions of higher learning), that matters - a lot.
Note that we're talking about football GSRs (vis a vis Notre Dame's commitment to educating and graduating football players and the Big Ten's lack thereof). So, no, the Big Ten's is not approaching 80%. It's collectively (based on 2009 numbers): 68% (and that includes Northwestern's outlier, and impressive, 92%). Notre Dame's is 96%. That's not close.
By the way, I don't think any rational Notre Dame hater, fan, or unbiased observer would argue that Notre Dame's recent subpar performance can be explained by anything other than terrible coaching. Too bad for them. Good for those of us who take great joy in seeing them fail on their own network.
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College football = overrated
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In other words, they wouldn't be able to compete on the field with the Big Ten. *That's* the real reason. You can write it off as a different philosophy on supporting student athletes all you want, but when it comes down to it, the real reason is that they wouldn't succeed.
Because honestly the rates aren't all that different...each Big Ten school is 78% and above...which is way above their at-large graduation rates. And other schools with high rates have had plenty of success...Boston College, Wake Forest, etc.
Just add it to the list of excuses that Notre Dame comes up with to explain away their poor performance.
It seems like all your agruments are about how they are spam purses for not doing it. And every arguement against it is that there is no reason to do it.
Why should they?/no reason to > they should because if they don't they are axe wounds
at least IMO
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Oh, I see your point now: you don't like Notre Dame. Got it.
But that has nothing to do with my point: one reason why Notre Dame football has shunned the Big Ten again is because of the Big Ten's ongoing failure to educate and graduate its football players at an (in my opinion) acceptable level.
Modified.
No reason to continue to debate this.