After sacrificing his redshirt year for Crean, Mbakwe transfers rather than play for Buzz
+ Acker is off-again/on-again before Buzz even coaches his first game
+ Maymon quits just weeks after convincing his best friend to commit to MU
WTF???
Quote from: 3Mer on December 15, 2009, 09:37:13 AM
After sacrificing his redshirt year for Crean, Mbakwe transfers rather than play for Buzz
+ Acker is off-again/on-again before Buzz even coaches his first game
+ Maymon quits just weeks after convincing his best friend to commit to MU
WTF???
Acker left the team this summer... Buzz had already coached the team for one season.
Mbakwe had long-standing issues with transfers (see his high school career).
The full Maymon story has yet to come out.
Quote from: 3Mer on December 15, 2009, 09:37:13 AM
After sacrificing his redshirt year for Crean, Mbakwe transfers rather than play for Buzz
+ Acker is off-again/on-again before Buzz even coaches his first game
+ Maymon quits just weeks after convincing his best friend to commit to MU
WTF???
Wow. You wanna talk about trying to connect three unconnectable dots. Other than the fact that Mbakwe and Maymon came in with somewhat flaky reputations, those situations could not be more different.
Mbakwe - what makes you say he sacrificed that year for Crean? Maybe he sacrificed it for himself. The coach who recruited him left, and rumors of him transferring swirrled for a very long time. His departure surprises you?
Acker - There were about 420 reasons for his departure. His return would seem to be counter to your argument.
Maymon - Who knows why he quit, but is anyone
really surprised by it?
Uninformed + Overreaction + Inflammatory + Far-reaching = TROLL
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 15, 2009, 09:47:14 AM
Acker - There were about 420 reasons for his departure. His return would seem to be counter to your argument.
Would this be a reference to a certain Proposition in CA?
"420 reasons".....that is funny!
Buzz has not lost control but there are other dots that can be connected and no matter how this plays out, they should make every MU fan at least a little bit worried.
Oh and those dots would be Roseboro, Clark and Maymon. Clark and Maymon falling into the category of there were higher risks involved in their recruitments that were known ahead of time. Roeseboro and Maymon could and the key word is "could", fall into a category of coaches said one thing to recruits during recruitment and their comments were totally different than actual reality, for whatever reasons.
Should be an interesting next couple of days, months and year.
I do not think Buzz has lost control. He has very high values and will not put up with people who cross it. Part of his values is that he will never publically say what happen. At this point, I believe without any inside knowlege that Buzz told Embakwe not to come back based on some line Embakwe crossed shortly before the start of the year. This is pure speculation on my part, but it makes sense to me. Embakwe did ???. Buzz said ??? is not acceptable. Buzz tells Embakwe to leave quietly and promises not to say anything about ???.
What concerns me most about this situation is that it really starts to make me question Buzz. No matter what the deal is here there is a pattern of bad judgment that is starting to be clear. All the way back to New Orleans, Acker, Roseboro, Clark and now Maymon. All different and all excusable or unforeseeable on there own. However, taken together it is not a pretty picture. Is Buzz able to judge the character of his players? Is he able to stand by his commitments and mentor these young men to do the same? His intensity has an upside but I fear it also might impede his ability to evaluate and guide these young guys through what is admittedly a very tough period for them.
Quote from: TSN_92 on December 15, 2009, 11:10:00 AM
What concerns me most about this situation is that it really starts to make me question Buzz. No matter what the deal is here there is a pattern of bad judgment that is starting to be clear.
Its the reason he was hired. He was a guy who was going to be willing to take some chances the previous guy would not, something that was valued by people in high places at MU. MU knew exactly what they were getting, and its a chance they were obviously willing to take. If this thing goes wrong, its on them, not Buzz.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 15, 2009, 11:22:05 AM
Its the reason he was hired. He was a guy who was going to be willing to take some chances the previous guy would not, something that was valued by people in high places at MU. MU knew exactly what they were getting, and its a chance they were obviously willing to take. If this thing goes wrong, its on them, not Buzz.
Tom Crean didn't take chances?
James Matthews, Carlton Christian, Trevor Mbakwe and Niv Berkowitz, not to mention some kid named Wade, may beg to differ.
Actually, the fact that he's not kowtowing to players and their parents makes me believe he's more in control that I thought he was.
This could be a GOOD thing for Buzz.
The pundits don't see The Current State of Marquette Basketball as a "good thing" for Buzz:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/309018-the-current-state-of-marquette-basketball
Quote from: Pakuni on December 15, 2009, 11:33:29 AM
Tom Crean didn't take chances?
James Matthews, Carlton Christian, Trevor Mbakwe and Niv Berkowitz, not to mention some kid named Wade, may beg to differ.
Ok, so he took chances on bad players hoping they could play (with the obvious exception of Wade). How many chances did he take in the last 4-5 years? After he got burned by the guys you mention, how many chances did he take? He recruited well enough for MU to be a consistent Top 30 team. Right or wrong, Buzz was hired because of his willingness to push the recruiting envelope a bit and go after guys like Jimmy Butler, Buycks, Clark, Maymon, etc. Crean would not have gone near those guys. Maybe he is the smart one, and I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin, that's a big reason Buzz got the job.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 15, 2009, 11:46:40 AM
Ok, so he took chances on bad players hoping they could play (with the obvious exception of Wade). How many chances did he take in the last 4-5 years? After he got burned by the guys you mention, how many chances did he take? He recruited well enough for MU to be a consistent Top 30 team. Right or wrong, Buzz was hired because of his willingness to push the recruiting envelope a bit and go after guys like Jimmy Butler, Buycks, Clark, Maymon, etc. Crean would not have gone near those guys. Maybe he is the smart one, and I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin, that's a big reason Buzz got the job.
Ummm...all of those guys were within the last 5 classes of Crean's tenure.
Mbakwe in 2007, Niv Berkowitz 2004, Manchild and Christian 2003.
Also, FYI, Crean was going after Monterale Clark, both when Clark was in high school and when Clark was at prep school. Clark even talked about it when he committed to MU.
Quote from: 3Mer on December 15, 2009, 11:40:39 AM
The pundits don't see The Current State of Marquette Basketball as a "good thing" for Buzz:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/309018-the-current-state-of-marquette-basketball
The pundits? Some Sophomore at MU qualifies as a pundit? Not sure what makes that any more punditry than anything that has been written here in the past 12 hours.
Wow, just only a few weeks ago, Buzz was a coaching savant in total control of everything....having scooped Bucky for Blue and beat Xavier and Michigan.
Now to some is he the reincarnation of Bob Dukiet.
Get Gripping is needed.
Quote from: 3Mer on December 15, 2009, 11:40:39 AM
The pundits don't see The Current State of Marquette Basketball as a "good thing" for Buzz:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/309018-the-current-state-of-marquette-basketball
I hope JM quit for some reason besides being guareented playing time by Buzz. Don't want this to get ugly in the media, there will be many writers with different takes on this.
Quote from: bma725 on December 15, 2009, 11:50:32 AM
Ummm...all of those guys were within the last 5 classes of Crean's tenure.
Mbakwe in 2007, Niv Berkowitz 2004, Manchild and Christian 2003.
Right, so when I used a timeline of
4-5 years, that was accurate, and when I asked...
After he got burned by the guys you mention, how many chances did he take? The answer would be 1, Mbakwe. Right? Right.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 15, 2009, 11:55:56 AM
Right, so when I used a timeline of 4-5 years, that was accurate, and when I asked...After he got burned by the guys you mention, how many chances did he take? The answer would be 1, Mbakwe. Right? Right.
I'm confused. You think that the reason mu needed a guy like buzz was so that he'd 'take risks' on a player like Maymon. This implies that you think Crean would have refused maymon.
No way. There are few coaches in america that would have said no to maymon if he was interested.
Quote from: RawdogDX on December 15, 2009, 12:38:52 PM
I'm confused. You think that the reason mu needed a guy like buzz was so that he'd 'take risks' on a player like Maymon. This implies that you think Crean would have refused maymon.
No way. There are few coaches in america that would have said no to maymon if he was interested.
Not necessarily Maymon specifically (The risk in his case was not necessarily ability, but personality, attitude, etc.), but JUCo's, academic risks...riskier guys in general. I don't necessarily think MU needed that, but people with a say in who got hired did, and it is probably the biggest reason Buzz got the job.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 15, 2009, 11:51:11 AM
The pundits? Some Sophomore at MU qualifies as a pundit? Not sure what makes that any more punditry than anything that has been written here in the past 12 hours.
Absolutely agreed.
While I know Bleacher Report has some quality writers (who are there genuinely trying to build a professional portfolio so they can take the next step in their media careers), any dope can go on there and play the role of "pundit".
I remember a few weeks ago some "expert" claimed that the Brewers had closed a deal for Zach Greineke, and several news outlets in town ran with it. We're not talking exactly reliable source reporting/opinion on Bleacher Report.
Quote from: RawdogDX on December 15, 2009, 12:38:52 PM
I'm confused. You think that the reason mu needed a guy like buzz was so that he'd 'take risks' on a player like Maymon. This implies that you think Crean would have refused maymon.
No way. There are few coaches in america that would have said no to maymon if he was interested.
I think Buzz is very much in control and I'd rather have a coach that calls the shots than the players or parents. I hope that is the case.
On the comment about Maymon and Crean....I don't think that's accurate. Bo Ryan and Tom Crean showed very little interest in him outside of courtesy calls, etc. There were reasons for that. Risk & reward and neither saw the reward worth the risk. Buzz did, which is fine. If it worked out, then Buzz would be hailed = reward. If it doesn't, then the risk comes into play = current situation.
I too think Buzz is in control. Either Maymon was over rated or he is an underachiever. Over the last 10 games I kept asking myself, this kid was the best in Wisconsin? He sure was'nt playing like it. If Buzz takes him back, which I don't think he will, that would be his first big mistake. Time for Buzz to move on and find players that want to play for him..... and from what I've seen so far, he will.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 15, 2009, 11:55:56 AM
Right, so when I used a timeline of 4-5 years, that was accurate, and when I asked...After he got burned by the guys you mention, how many chances did he take? The answer would be 1, Mbakwe. Right? Right.
Not really, it just depends on how you define risk. Blackledge was as big of a risk academically as Christian or Mbakwe or Berkowitz...even to the point of having to sit a portion of his junior year for academic reasons. Crean was recruiting Monterale Clark even after he knew about the 3 HS in Milwaukee, and the Prep School in Georgia and the fact that he had to go to a JUCO. Heck he even tried getting him to visit IU when he took that job.
The difference is not that he didn't take risks, it's that he tried to limit the risks to 1 a year.
Here is the problem with Buzz.
At best I'm not sure his mind and his mouth are connected - at worst he might be a snake-oil salesman This is the second recruit from this freshman class that was supposedly promised something that was not delivered. Roseboro transferred early for whatever reason. Maymon is seemingly transferring now.
Add this to some of his other "shoot from the hip" verbal remarks, such as the "We are no longer recruiting Jamil Wilson" debacle, and the run in with Jim McIlvaine, and it makes me wonder if this guy really thinks thoroughly about what he says to people before he actually says them.
Take any of these incidents alone, and they call all be explained away. Add them together and a pattern emerges. (And I would add the dropping out of the UNO job as well.)
I don't like what I see here.
Not sure how bringing up UNO helps your argument. They're talking about dropping to D3. There was no commitment to athletics there.
If you knew what happened with that recruitment, and how much the Wilson's vacillated, you would understand why MU ultimately took someone else for that spot.
You do not know what was said. You've only read one side of the story with Roseboro and Maymon.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 15, 2009, 03:00:37 PM
Not sure how bringing up UNO helps your argument. They're talking about dropping to D3. There was no commitment to athletics there.
If you knew what happened with that recruitment, and how much the Wilson's vacillated, you would understand why MU ultimately took someone else for that spot.
You do not know what was said. You've only read one side of the story with Roseboro and Maymon.
I understand what you are saying...but you are doing exactly what I warned against. If you make excuses for every incident, you can fail to see the larger trends.
Take any of these incidents alone, and they call all be explained away. Add them together and a pattern emerges. (And I would add the dropping out of the UNO job as well.)
I don't like what I see here.
[/quote]
Agreed. For someone who is supposedly a stickler for details, how could Buzz not know what he was getting into at UNO before signing a contract? Likewise, how could he not know what he was getting into by offering a scholarship to JM?
While many posters here can explain away all the upheaval in Buzz's young tenure, how does this mess play to potential recruits and incoming commits?
But how can you ignore them individually? Especially when there's a very viable explanation.
I'll give you the Mac incident. But there is still no way to know what was said during the recruitment.
Quote from: 3Mer on December 15, 2009, 03:12:47 PM
Take any of these incidents alone, and they call all be explained away. Add them together and a pattern emerges. (And I would add the dropping out of the UNO job as well.)
I don't like what I see here.
Agreed. For someone who is supposedly a stickler for details, how could Buzz not know what he was getting into at UNO before signing a contract? Likewise, how could he not know what he was getting into by offering a scholarship to JM?
While many posters here can explain away all the upheaval in Buzz's young tenure, how does this mess play to potential recruits and incoming commits?
leaden cloudy sky
masks the movement of the stars
innocence defined
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 15, 2009, 03:15:56 PM
But how can you ignore them individually? Especially when there's a very viable explanation.
I'll give you the Mac incident. But there is still no way to know what was said during the recruitment.
Tim Maymon said right afterwards that he was promised a starting spot and 25-30 minutes a game from the get go. Has anyone refuted that?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 15, 2009, 03:20:06 PM
Tim Maymon said right afterwards that he was promised a starting spot and 25-30 minutes a game from the get go. Has anyone refuted that?
gentle rain nourishes
abundant crop flourishes
grasshoppers' delight
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 15, 2009, 03:20:06 PM
Tim Maymon said right afterwards that he was promised a starting spot and 25-30 minutes a game from the get go. Has anyone refuted that?
Can a coach refute that? What advantage is gained by refuting that before he even got to campus? Jeronne himself said he would have the chance to start. Sure sounds like Dad heard something different.
It's just like the Jamil Wilson thing, no one from MU is going to come out and say what happened. It'd be PR suicide.
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 15, 2009, 03:33:25 PM
Can a coach refute that? What advantage is gained by refuting that before he even got to campus? Jeronne himself said he would have the chance to start. Sure sounds like Dad heard something different.
It's just like the Jamil Wilson thing, no one from MU is going to come out and say what happened. It'd be PR suicide.
twisted words betray
unfulfilled expectation
vanquished dreams below
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 15, 2009, 03:20:06 PM
Tim Maymon said right afterwards that he was promised a starting spot and 25-30 minutes a game from the get go. Has anyone refuted that?
Just wondering .... but who do you think would refute that?
Do you know many head coaches in the practice of publicly labeling their players' parents as liars?
"We're thrilled to have Jeronne at Marquette," head coach Buzz Williams said. "It's just unfortunate his dad doesn't know what he's talking about."
Quote from: Pakuni on December 15, 2009, 03:43:36 PM
Just wondering .... but who do you think would refute that?
Do you know many head coaches in the practice of publicly labeling their players' parents as liars?
wizened by the years
judgment clouded and confused
too strong emotions
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 15, 2009, 03:20:06 PM
Tim Maymon said right afterwards that he was promised a starting spot and 25-30 minutes a game from the get go. Has anyone refuted that?
Didn't Jeronne himself refute that in a later interview saying he was promised he could compete for a starting spot, not that he was guaranteed one?
Quote from: MUfan12 on December 15, 2009, 03:00:37 PM
Not sure how bringing up UNO helps your argument. They're talking about dropping to D3. There was no commitment to athletics there.
Not entirely accurate...the D3 drop came very recently as a result of the students not wanting to take a small increase to their student fees. There was no discussion whatsoever in going to D3, D2 or anywhere else a few years ago.
In fact, until only a few months ago, Geoge Schinn (sp?) was supposed to be a sugar daddy to shepard them through. Schinn is part owner of the Hornets.
Now, is the level at MU's level? Absolutely not. Were promises made to Buzz about getting their arena fixed after Katrina so they could play ball there in a timely fashion? Yes, it appears so.
I think most people understand why Buzz left New Orleans, but I think equally most people would also understand how frustrated UNO fans must feel. As they have expressed on many times, it was a kick to the nuts when they were already down and certainly didn't help their plight which has since led to where they are now....perhaps without a DI athletic program. All that instability (losing 2 coaches in two years...both taking DI assistant jobs, Katrina, state budget cuts, etc) has not been good for the Privateers.
Quote from: Pakuni on December 15, 2009, 03:43:36 PM
Just wondering .... but who do you think would refute that?
Do you know many head coaches in the practice of publicly labeling their players' parents as liars?
"We're thrilled to have Jeronne at Marquette," head coach Buzz Williams said. "It's just unfortunate his dad doesn't know what he's talking about."
You are absolutely correct, it cannot be refuted but if a parent of a player publicly said that, which he seemed to do, alarm bells should be going off in stereo. You can't have the players and parents running the ship. If that's the reason why Buzz cut him loose, I applaud Buzz. Then again, you have to wonder why he took him in the first place. It's like the young bride saying she's going to change her man. Maybe he thought once I get him in here he'll understand and we can change the mentality.
Who knows, all speculation on my part.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 15, 2009, 04:41:34 PM
Not entirely accurate...the D3 drop came very recently as a result of the students not wanting to take a small increase to their student fees. There was no discussion whatsoever in going to D3, D2 or anywhere else a few years ago.
In fact, until only a few months ago, Geoge Schinn (sp?) was supposed to be a sugar daddy to shepard them through. Schinn is part owner of the Hornets.
Now, is the level at MU's level? Absolutely not. Were promises made to Buzz about getting their arena fixed after Katrina so they could play ball there in a timely fashion? Yes, it appears so.
I think most people understand why Buzz left New Orleans, but I think equally most people would also understand how frustrated UNO fans must feel. As they have expressed on many times, it was a kick to the nuts when they were already down and certainly didn't help their plight which has since led to where they are now....perhaps without a DI athletic program. All that instability (losing 2 coaches in two years...both taking DI assistant jobs, Katrina, state budget cuts, etc) has not been good for the Privateers.
the wicked wind blows
devastating hopes and dreams
a leader betrayed
Quote from: warthog-driver on December 15, 2009, 03:48:33 PM
wizened by the years
judgment clouded and confused
too strong emotions
Warthog Driver Boy
Many haikus does employ
Words do not make life.
Quote from: wildbillsb on December 15, 2009, 07:28:49 PM
Warthog Driver Boy
Many haikus does employ
Words do not make life.
living with great zest
what fighter pilots do best
resting from the war
Quote from: bma725 on December 15, 2009, 03:53:03 PM
Didn't Jeronne himself refute that in a later interview saying he was promised he could compete for a starting spot, not that he was guaranteed one?
Hmmm....that may be the case.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 15, 2009, 02:50:44 PM.
Take any of these incidents alone, and they call all be explained away. Add them together and a pattern emerges. (And I would add the dropping out of the UNO job as well.)
I don't like what I see here.
Have to agree with Sultan here. Apologists can look at each individual situation and make excuses. Clark, Maymon, and Roseboro have me concerned about a trend as well. I am not saying I don't like Buzz but I am getting concerned about the recruiting issues. He will get pass this season because it was supposed to be a rebuilding year anyways. However, I don't want to hear excuses about Clark, Maymon, injuries, lack of 3-star recruits last minute, et al. next year. I hope he learns from these recruiting mistakes.
By granting him a release, doesn't that allow us to add a player who is eligible for the 2nd semester?
Has Buzz lost control?
The jury is still out and only people within the program could begin to answer that.
I do think that Buzz is trying to exert control. Sometimes treating cancer makes the patient sick before he gets better. I guess we'll have to wait and see if that analogy is accurate.
What MU needs now is for Lazar and Jimmy to take control and pull this team together. This season could be make or break for MU. We are going to take our lumps this year. We can come out of this stronger and better off or this thing could spiral out of control.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on December 16, 2009, 01:48:26 AM
By granting him a release, doesn't that allow us to add a player who is eligible for the 2nd semester?
Niv Berkowitz II?
Hope he is better than him
We can only dream
/my first Haiku since 5th grade, I apologize. Just trying to catch the Warthog train
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on December 16, 2009, 01:48:26 AM
By granting him a release, doesn't that allow us to add a player who is eligible for the 2nd semester?
We already had a scholarship space available with the Roseboro transfer.
when an inn has room
make sure all guests are happy
the path is two-way