but that loss was on Jimmy Butler. 1-8 from the FT line in the 2nd half. The taking it to the rack philosphy only works if you can knock down the FT's. You could tell he lost his confidence after a few of those misses. Missed 7 in a row when it counted.
gotta hit his throws
His idol Miley Cyrus could have at least made 5 out of 12.
Buzz also needs to use time outs better to stop opponents' runs. The 10-2 run he let FSU go on without calling a timeout in the 2nd half let FSU back in the game. TO's could have also helped with the fatigue factor.
I agree. Unfortunately.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on November 29, 2009, 08:37:13 PM
but that loss was on Jimmy Butler. 1-8 from the FT line in the 2nd half. The taking it to the rack philosphy only works if you can knock down the FT's. You could tell he lost his confidence after a few of those misses. Missed 7 in a row when it counted.
Boy that'll be scrutinized.
Lots of "could'ves": last play was drawn up well, errant pass...
That DJO steal was close...but you don't want to hang a loss on a play in the final seconds...
MU settled for jumpers in the second
But I think it was Leonard Hamilton's adjustment and the lack of an MU counter-adjustment that cost the game.
But I'd hate to blame Butler since all he had to do was hit two of them.
He played his butt off. This team needs to remember this game and use it as a mantra for playing solidly for TWO HALVES.
Anyhew...FRAK, but it was a fun three games.
It didn't help that Cubi reverted to his form of the past two seasons. We should have had this one.
Come on, the guy ran out of gas after 4 games in 6 days. Mr. Hayward, you are a LOSER.
A lot of people came up short in this one... Butler with the free throws, Cubillan didn't even allow a reb with his missed three's, turnovers by Acker, defense by Lazar.
The announcers said it... we looked really tired with about 5 minutes to go. Everyone loves the eight man rotation but with three games in four days sometimes having a little more bench helps.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on November 29, 2009, 08:37:13 PM
but that loss was on Jimmy Butler. 1-8 from the FT line in the 2nd half. The taking it to the rack philosphy only works if you can knock down the FT's. You could tell he lost his confidence after a few of those misses. Missed 7 in a row when it counted.
Hard to argue that...I'm sure Jimmy wouldn't himself. I surely wouldn't put it all on Jimmy though. Acker and Coobie couldn't hit an outside shot, and I thought the entire team looked tired and played poor defense down the stretch. I was disappointed in their effort for a 5-10 min stretch in the second half, which is unusual for a Buzz Williams coached team. Overall...a good weekend of basketball, but they surely let this one slip away.
with the way we are playing with that level of intensity and all it is very hard to do with only 8 or so guys. Buzz has said he wants 13 guys and we just are not there yet numbers wise. will be closer next year.
Ahh yeah Butler did run out of gas thanks for stating the obvious. Bottom line tho remains if he hit his fros we win. and he is an 80% shooter, more than gas you could see on his face he lost confidence he was missing them early in the half too.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on November 29, 2009, 08:37:13 PM
but that loss was on Jimmy Butler. 1-8 from the FT line in the 2nd half. The taking it to the rack philosphy only works if you can knock down the FT's. You could tell he lost his confidence after a few of those misses. Missed 7 in a row when it counted.
Jackass comment.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on November 29, 2009, 08:50:44 PM
A lot of people came up short in this one... Butler with the free throws, Cubillan didn't even allow a reb with his missed three's, turnovers by Acker, defense by Lazar.
The announcers said it... we looked really tired with about 5 minutes to go. Everyone loves the eight man rotation but with three games in four days sometimes having a little more bench helps.
Yep. Fatigue was probably the issue.
FSU played 4 games in 5 days (or so the announcers said), but they have a deeper bench and rotate out more frequently.
When you lead by 17 with 15 minutes left in the game, it's not an individual player losing the game, it's a meltdown of the entire team and a lack of game management by Buzz. Only 5 assists and it tells you everything about a team not playing to their strength.
So many what ifs played into this game. Lazar picking up that 3rd foul in the first half I think really limited his aggressiveness defensively in the second half. Blame that third foul on who you will, but it seemed as though he played more conservatively on D after picking up that third one (which was ticky tack, as the late great Chick Hearn would say).
And yeah, Butler could've hit free throws. He also could have drawn a fifth foul on Singleton by going at him, but in the end we just played FSU's style of ball.
Hopefully our boys come out hungry on Saturday and this serves as a good learning experience for everyone on this young team.
I don't care how bad he's been in practice, don't you think Williams could have contributed positively late in the game to give somebody a breather?
We could really use EWill in the rotation. Hopefully he practices hard this week! drewm88 you are exactly right. You made the comment while I was typing.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on November 29, 2009, 08:53:05 PM
with the way we are playing with that level of intensity and all it is very hard to do with only 8 or so guys. Buzz has said he wants 13 guys and we just are not there yet numbers wise. will be closer next year.
Ahh yeah Butler did run out of gas thanks for stating the obvious. Bottom line tho remains if he hit his fros we win. and he is an 80% shooter, more than gas you could see on his face he lost confidence he was missing them early in the half too.
well maybe if he played two more of HIS boys, Fulce and Williams, more than 5 mins a game. i know he cant help injuries, but you gotta be able to get all your guys to be able to contribute 10-15 mins a game. When u are thin as heck down low, u atleast throw them in the fire at the right time and let them learn the hard way, so that things like the last 10 mins of today dont happen
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on November 29, 2009, 08:45:50 PM
Anyhew...FRAK, but it was a fun three games.
It was a fun two games. Losing is never fun and blowing a game we had won is extremely unfun. Gonna be pissed for several hours.
Missed free throws were a killer, but I'm not sure Butler isn't the most valuable player on our team. I love the way he plays...Hayward, too. I'll say it a million times this year, but I think this team is a thousand times more enjoyable than last year's team.
Tough, tough loss (reminds me of the NIT Final vs. VA Tech)...but a great run so far this year!
FSU's size also forced us to work that much harder which also caused fatigue. This team was clearly out of gas. That being said I really think more offense should've been run through DJO tonight. With DJO penetrating and JB and Zar crashing I think our offense would've been much more effective.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on November 29, 2009, 09:00:32 PM
Tough, tough loss (reminds me of the NIT Final vs. VA Tech)...but a great run so far this year!
+1
I was thinking about that also. DJO has a pure shot - great form and rotation. He's only a sophomore!
Quote from: WarriorHal on November 29, 2009, 08:59:59 PM
It was a fun two games. Losing is never fun and blowing a game we had won is extremely unfun. Gonna be pissed for several hours seconds.
Liked the overall hustle and grit of the team.
Quote from: mudimitri on November 29, 2009, 08:59:01 PM
well maybe if he played two more of HIS boys, Fulce and Williams, more than 5 mins a game. i know he cant help injuries, but you gotta be able to get all your guys to be able to contribute 10-15 mins a game. When u are thin as heck down low, u atleast throw them in the fire at the right time and let them learn the hard way, so that things like the last 10 mins of today dont happen
If you're talking about contributing and not just playing, it's time to add Maymon to the mix. 10 rebounds, 2 points on 1-4 shooting, and 7 fouls for the tournament. It might've looked ok in the first game, but he's been a complete non-factor in the past two. Fulce at least provided some hustle and energy minutes (though that was about it), but Maymon's got to be able to contribute, not just be somewhere on the floor getting scored on for 12 minutes per game.
Regarding playing E. Williams I just don't see putting the guy in, in the championship game when he hasn't played much prior. (remember we really didn't have a safe lead in the other 2 games and of course no one was complaining then about the rotation). That said I think we do need to work him into the rotation so he can play in games like this in the Conf season. I do not like playing Mo and Cubby at the same time and if you have to sit Lazar or Butler right now that is what you are left with. I think E.W. can be an offensive threat (which Fulce is not) and could help spell the forwards which will help our rotation overall.
blaming this loss on an individual player, youre kidding me right?
we collapsed as a team, theres no need to single out a player... especially one who had a double double.
sure, his free throws would have helped, but cubi making a shot would have as well.
Quote from: mudimitri on November 29, 2009, 08:59:01 PM
well maybe if he played two more of HIS boys, Fulce and Williams, more than 5 mins a game. i know he cant help injuries, but you gotta be able to get all your guys to be able to contribute 10-15 mins a game. When u are thin as heck down low, u atleast throw them in the fire at the right time and let them learn the hard way, so that things like the last 10 mins of today dont happen
Makes no sense. I'm sorry, but Fulce was useless out there tonight. He only got minutes after Maymon banged his head and Hayward or Butler needed rest. Williams would have been completely lost.
And I'm more worried about the lack of depth at guard anyway.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 29, 2009, 09:36:43 PM
Makes no sense. I'm sorry, but Fulce was useless out there tonight. He only got minutes after Maymon banged his head and Hayward or Butler needed rest. Williams would have been completely lost.
And I'm more worried about the lack of depth at guard anyway.
You make no sense, Im sorry. I am more so talking about earlier in the season, or even earlier in some of these close games in order to gain some experience so they can atleast come in for 2-3 mins at a time and give guys a rest
When I said earlier in the season that even those struggling in practice should play in blowouts i was attacked. Obviously its not ideal at this point to play Fulce and EWill big mins in close games, but its also not ideal to have guys walking around on defense and blowing 17 pt leads because there isnt another guy that can step in and play 10 mins per game.
Fulce STARTED a game a few weeks ago, now hes not good enough to play 15 mins and give guys a break? maybe cause his confidence is shot, because Id guess the kid can produce or atleast compete for 10 mins
Lack of depth at guard- u serious? Its clear that we can hang with and out-compete teams at that position, but we are thin as heck in the 4-5 positions. Acker, cubillan, DJO, buycks will be just fine most of the season... If lazar or butler get in foul trouble we are doomed with maymon, williams, fulce, mbao at this point, esp because 3 of them dont seem able enough to get 5 mins/game according to Buzz
Our bench has to produce something...or it will be a long season if we are not getting at least 8 pts from the bench!
Quote from: mudimitri on November 29, 2009, 09:50:24 PM
Fulce STARTED a game a few weeks ago, now hes not good enough to play 15 mins and give guys a break? maybe cause his confidence is shot, because Id guess the kid can produce or atleast compete for 10 mins
Did you miss the part about Fulce having a knee bruise that required draining fluid off his knee right after one of those games he started?
Quote from: bma725 on November 29, 2009, 10:00:49 PM
Did you miss the part about Fulce having a knee bruise that required draining fluid off his knee right after one of those games he started?
did you miss the part about williams or mbao playing 5 mins? maymon? also, if he can play at all im sure he can give a few more mins. Lets face it, Buzz falls in love with a rotation, and uses the other 3-4 guys so little that it ends up being to the teams detriment...
This loss is not on Jimmy. Many missed shots early in the game - when it could have been 18 - 2 if we hit them,. To single out a single player is just wrong. The team wins, the team loses. The team lost. SO did Buzz. They left it all on the court. End of story. A 10 man rotation would give these guys a critical blow when they need it.
Quote from: mudimitri on November 29, 2009, 10:08:18 PM
did you miss the part about williams or mbao playing 5 mins? maymon? also, if he can play at all im sure he can give a few more mins. Lets face it, Buzz falls in love with a rotation, and uses the other 3-4 guys so little that it ends up being to the teams detriment...
It's not about rotation, it's about ability to play at that level on the defensive end of the floor. Right now, none of those guys can do that. Williams doesn't have the lateral quickness to guard anyone on the perimeter and isn't big enough to guard people down low. Mbao gets pushed around too easily. Fulce hasn't shown that he has the ability to guard people at that high major level. Maymon can't play without fouling, as shown by his 3 fouls in 11 minutes of playing time. So if you put them on the floor, what ever you gain by having the other guys fresh at the end is negated by the fact that they can't defend the players they are guarding.
We're talking about 19-23 year old kids that had no problem playing 2 games in less than 24 hours and expend more energy than this every day in practice and workouts. Fatigue wasn't the issue, and it isn't the reason they lost the game.
Guys - It was 39-24 and I turned off the TV to pick up my wife. Sorry
Quote from: bma725 on November 29, 2009, 10:49:21 PM
It's not about rotation, it's about ability to play at that level on the defensive end of the floor. Right now, none of those guys can do that. Williams doesn't have the lateral quickness to guard anyone on the perimeter and isn't big enough to guard people down low. Mbao gets pushed around too easily. Fulce hasn't shown that he has the ability to guard people at that high major level. Maymon can't play without fouling, as shown by his 3 fouls in 11 minutes of playing time. So if you put them on the floor, what ever you gain by having the other guys fresh at the end is negated by the fact that they can't defend the players they are guarding.
We're talking about 19-23 year old kids that had no problem playing 2 games in less than 24 hours and expend more energy than this every day in practice and workouts. Fatigue wasn't the issue, and it isn't the reason they lost the game.
I mostly agree with you...
However, in all fairness/unfairness, it's the head coach's job to figure out when/where to use his chess pieces properly. This might be a case where Buzz simply doesn't have enough bullets in his gun... but, personally, I'd like to see him lengthen the bench a little bit... even if it costs them a couple of baskets in the first half.
I know these guys are in great shape, but using the eye test, they were not flying around in the last 5 min. like they were in the first 5 minutes.
Zar was walking up the court, Jimmy missed a lot of free throws short, and a few times on offense they settled for an early jumper.
With all of this said, I loved the guts they showed all tournament, and I'm more optimistic about the season.
Quote from: bma725 on November 29, 2009, 10:49:21 PM
It's not about rotation, it's about ability to play at that level on the defensive end of the floor. Right now, none of those guys can do that. Williams doesn't have the lateral quickness to guard anyone on the perimeter and isn't big enough to guard people down low. Mbao gets pushed around too easily. Fulce hasn't shown that he has the ability to guard people at that high major level. Maymon can't play without fouling, as shown by his 3 fouls in 11 minutes of playing time. So if you put them on the floor, what ever you gain by having the other guys fresh at the end is negated by the fact that they can't defend the players they are guarding.
We're talking about 19-23 year old kids that had no problem playing 2 games in less than 24 hours and expend more energy than this every day in practice and workouts. Fatigue wasn't the issue, and it isn't the reason they lost the game.
1- how do you know if williams and mbao can guard anyone if they havent played in a game? also, what did Lazar do the last 2 posessions that either of those two couldnt?? It is better to let a 7 ft guy get uncontested shots over a 6'6 guy? I am not saying that those guys are better than Lazar, just giving an example and saying that you dont know for sure unless u play them. I highly doubt that having Ewill or mbao on the court will cost u as many points as Acker and his bunny 3 pt plays that he gives up (dont get me wrong i think he gives it his all, just costs the team easy buckets because of size)
2- fatigue WAS an issue, and anyone who saw the game knows that. Butler and DJO were visibly gassed and it caused the team to give up easy buckets at the end.
3- im not saying give those guys 25 minutes of PT. a few minutes here and there in certain situations, and Buzz might be pleasantly surprised. if the team is visibly hurt, its not difficult to pull the string, AND u have a teaching point for that kids lack of D ability
A game that I was at in Providence last yr sticks out- Buzz wasnt using Fulce or Otule at all. MU was getting whipped all game consistently down 10. For some unknown reason Buzz threw in Fulce and he was a huge sparkplug, and in my opinion one of the main reasons MU came back to win that game, even though he only played 10 or so mins....Fulce saw limited minutes the rest of the season
All Im saying is give some of those guys a chance. Even if they provide very little, or hurt the team slightly, it benefits not only them, but the rest of the team towards the end of games. Also, gives opposition something different to have to deal with, even if its a 7'2 guy with limited abilities
Quote from: 2002mualum on November 29, 2009, 11:27:40 PM
However, in all fairness/unfairness, it's the head coach's job to figure out when/where to use his chess pieces properly. This might be a case where Buzz simply doesn't have enough bullets in his gun... but, personally, I'd like to see him lengthen the bench a little bit... even if it costs them a couple of baskets in the first half.
I know these guys are in great shape, but using the eye test, they were not flying around in the last 5 min. like they were in the first 5 minutes.
Zar was walking up the court, Jimmy missed a lot of free throws short, and a few times on offense they settled for an early jumper.
With all of this said, I loved the guts they showed all tournament, and I'm more optimistic about the season.
completely agree
What is we would have surprised FSU with a zone on that last play, with Mbao under the basket - he may have fouled or whatever, but it would have thrown them off. Just thinking out loud as we all do after the fact (LOL - easy to do)
I've been watching Erik Williams play since he was a junior in high school. He's never shown the ability to guard players on the perimeter. His high school coach talked about how the #1 thing he was going to need work on when he got to MU was his defense, because they had their defense set up where all he had to do was stay close to the basket and attempt to block shots. He'd never had to contend with a guy trying to go around him on the perimeter, or bang with another guy on the post, he played the floater...a position you can't have in major d1 ball. In his playing time so far, he's shown good offensive ability and decent shooting touch, but he couldn't defend the guys that he was guarding against low major teams, and he's shown nothing to suggest that would improve against a team at FSU's level. Buzz has talked about EW needing to work on his defense and defensive intensity, and others close to the program have mentioned it as well.
Mbao has looked completely lost on the court defensively. He can't play with out fouling, he can't hedge a screen properly, he can't maintain proper position because he lacks strength. There's a reason the guy is a developmental project. To expect anything from him this year, and likely next year is foolish.
Fatigue is not the reason they lost the game. They lost because they passed the ball poorly and spent too much time going one on one rather than working the ball for a better shot. They lost because they did a terrible job taking care of the ball, especially Buycks who had 5 turnovers and no assists. They lost because Hayward had a terrible shooting first half. They lost because a career 77% free throw shooter went 4 of 12 for the game. They lost because their perimeter shooting which had been a strength all year was god awful. They lost because they got a combined 43 minutes out of Acker and Cubillan, but only a total of 4 points, 3 assists, 2 turnovers and 2 rebounds. They lost because Maymon contributed nothing but fouls in an 11 minute span. They lost because they have no one on the roster that can guard Chris Singleton.
Fatigue is a convenient excuse that people use when their team just didn't play well and covers up what actually happened...they just didn't play to their abilities for the entire game. For this team to win, they have to play at on the razor's edge at all times. They can't afford to have off nights shooting, they can't afford to not hit their free throws, and they certainly can't afford to throw a guy out there for a couple of minutes just to get a rest.
The notion that fatigue was the issue when they played better on Friday despite not having any rest and playing a tough game less than a day before is laughable, and misses the reality of what actually happened on the court.
Well said, bma. Sums up my thoughts exactly.
Especially true about their thin margin of error. Which is why I'm really concerned that the first 5 halves of this tournament might be fool's gold. To be honest, I can't see much of a remedy for long teams like that. FSU made it really tough for Acker/Cubillan to initiate the offense and reverse the ball.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on November 29, 2009, 08:50:44 PM
A lot of people came up short in this one... Butler with the free throws, Cubillan didn't even allow a reb with his missed three's, turnovers by Acker, defense by Lazar.
The announcers said it... we looked really tired with about 5 minutes to go. Everyone loves the eight man rotation but with three games in four days sometimes having a little more bench helps.
+1
Well said...exactly what happened. It was a great weekend, these guys showed a lot but they just ran out of gas around the 16 minute mark in the 2nd half.
Quote from: bma725 on November 30, 2009, 12:06:08 AM
I've been watching Erik Williams play since he was a junior in high school. He's never shown the ability to guard players on the perimeter. His high school coach talked about how the #1 thing he was going to need work on when he got to MU was his defense, because they had their defense set up where all he had to do was stay close to the basket and attempt to block shots. He'd never had to contend with a guy trying to go around him on the perimeter, or bang with another guy on the post, he played the floater...a position you can't have in major d1 ball. In his playing time so far, he's shown good offensive ability and decent shooting touch, but he couldn't defend the guys that he was guarding against low major teams, and he's shown nothing to suggest that would improve against a team at FSU's level. Buzz has talked about EW needing to work on his defense and defensive intensity, and others close to the program have mentioned it as well.
Mbao has looked completely lost on the court defensively. He can't play with out fouling, he can't hedge a screen properly, he can't maintain proper position because he lacks strength. There's a reason the guy is a developmental project. To expect anything from him this year, and likely next year is foolish.
Fatigue is not the reason they lost the game. They lost because they passed the ball poorly and spent too much time going one on one rather than working the ball for a better shot. They lost because they did a terrible job taking care of the ball, especially Buycks who had 5 turnovers and no assists. They lost because Hayward had a terrible shooting first half. They lost because a career 77% free throw shooter went 4 of 12 for the game. They lost because their perimeter shooting which had been a strength all year was god awful. They lost because they got a combined 43 minutes out of Acker and Cubillan, but only a total of 4 points, 3 assists, 2 turnovers and 2 rebounds. They lost because Maymon contributed nothing but fouls in an 11 minute span. They lost because they have no one on the roster that can guard Chris Singleton.
Fatigue is a convenient excuse that people use when their team just didn't play well and covers up what actually happened...they just didn't play to their abilities for the entire game. For this team to win, they have to play at on the razor's edge at all times. They can't afford to have off nights shooting, they can't afford to not hit their free throws, and they certainly can't afford to throw a guy out there for a couple of minutes just to get a rest.
The notion that fatigue was the issue when they played better on Friday despite not having any rest and playing a tough game less than a day before is laughable, and misses the reality of what actually happened on the court.
I know you watch a lot of hoops, and i know you are close with the program, so I respect you opinion a lot.
But, my eyes were telling me that they were tired at the end of the game and it was effecting their play. They attacked and kicked the ball a ton in the first 1/2.
Late in the game, they didn't do that. Part of the reason is that FSU made an adjustment, part of the reason is that MU just didn't execute, and part of the reason is that they were tired.
I can't say that fatigue wasn't a factor, because it sure looked like it.
i agree 100% with what bma had to say....and yes Mu was tired but so was FSU. as far as my comments of course there were alot of reasons we lost , the reason i mentioned Butler was of all the reasons it seems the simplest one that normally never happens is Butler bricking those Ft's
Quote from: bma725 on November 30, 2009, 12:06:08 AM
Fatigue is not the reason they lost the game. They lost because they passed the ball poorly and spent too much time going one on one rather than working the ball for a better shot. They lost because they did a terrible job taking care of the ball, especially Buycks who had 5 turnovers and no assists. They lost because Hayward had a terrible shooting first half. They lost because a career 77% free throw shooter went 4 of 12 for the game. They lost because their perimeter shooting which had been a strength all year was god awful. They lost because they got a combined 43 minutes out of Acker and Cubillan, but only a total of 4 points, 3 assists, 2 turnovers and 2 rebounds. They lost because Maymon contributed nothing but fouls in an 11 minute span. They lost because they have no one on the roster that can guard Chris Singleton.
Lack of movement off the ball...turnovers...bad shooting...bad free throws...
Can't that all be attributed to fatigue?
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on November 30, 2009, 08:16:22 AM
i agree 100% with what bma had to say....and yes Mu was tired but so was FSU. as far as my comments of course there were alot of reasons we lost , the reason i mentioned Butler was of all the reasons it seems the simplest one that normally never happens is Butler bricking those Ft's
But, thats where the size advantage comes in. FSU had a huge edge there and they took advantage of it via their two big guys down the stretch. Fatigue was an issue for a small short-handed team. Just the facts, ma'am.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 30, 2009, 08:21:06 AM
Lack of movement off the ball...turnovers...bad shooting...bad free throws...
Can't that all be attributed to fatigue?
If they were occurring because of fatigue, then they would have happened in the Michigan game, where the team was more fatigued, as well. They didn't.
Quote from: bma725 on November 30, 2009, 12:06:08 AM
I've been watching Erik Williams play since he was a junior in high school. He's never shown the ability to guard players on the perimeter. His high school coach talked about how the #1 thing he was going to need work on when he got to MU was his defense, because they had their defense set up where all he had to do was stay close to the basket and attempt to block shots. He'd never had to contend with a guy trying to go around him on the perimeter, or bang with another guy on the post, he played the floater...a position you can't have in major d1 ball. In his playing time so far, he's shown good offensive ability and decent shooting touch, but he couldn't defend the guys that he was guarding against low major teams, and he's shown nothing to suggest that would improve against a team at FSU's level. Buzz has talked about EW needing to work on his defense and defensive intensity, and others close to the program have mentioned it as well.
Mbao has looked completely lost on the court defensively. He can't play with out fouling, he can't hedge a screen properly, he can't maintain proper position because he lacks strength. There's a reason the guy is a developmental project. To expect anything from him this year, and likely next year is foolish.
Fatigue is not the reason they lost the game. They lost because they passed the ball poorly and spent too much time going one on one rather than working the ball for a better shot. They lost because they did a terrible job taking care of the ball, especially Buycks who had 5 turnovers and no assists. They lost because Hayward had a terrible shooting first half. They lost because a career 77% free throw shooter went 4 of 12 for the game. They lost because their perimeter shooting which had been a strength all year was god awful. They lost because they got a combined 43 minutes out of Acker and Cubillan, but only a total of 4 points, 3 assists, 2 turnovers and 2 rebounds. They lost because Maymon contributed nothing but fouls in an 11 minute span. They lost because they have no one on the roster that can guard Chris Singleton.
Fatigue is a convenient excuse that people use when their team just didn't play well and covers up what actually happened...they just didn't play to their abilities for the entire game. For this team to win, they have to play at on the razor's edge at all times. They can't afford to have off nights shooting, they can't afford to not hit their free throws, and they certainly can't afford to throw a guy out there for a couple of minutes just to get a rest.
The notion that fatigue was the issue when they played better on Friday despite not having any rest and playing a tough game less than a day before is laughable, and misses the reality of what actually happened on the court.
the coach cannot control who hits their free throws, who turns the ball over, who commits fouls, etc within a game. What he can control is his in game substitutions and adjustments. Since all these things were going wrong dont you think that maybe it was time to try someone else, or give the guys making the mistake a short break so that they could come back in fresh?
also, isnt it the coachs job to, in 3 months, get 2 top 100 guys more ready than to only be able to produce 0 and 11 minutes of basketball?
Quote from: mudimitri on November 30, 2009, 09:49:14 AM
the coach cannot control who hits their free throws, who turns the ball over, who commits fouls, etc within a game. What he can control is his in game substitutions and adjustments. Since all these things were going wrong dont you think that maybe it was time to try someone else, or give the guys making the mistake a short break so that they could come back in fresh?
also, isnt it the coachs job to, in 3 months, get 2 top 100 guys more ready than to only be able to produce 0 and 11 minutes of basketball?
I, for one, would take a 'tired' Jimmy Butler over a total liability freshman any day of the week.
I really cannot believe you are trying to make this argument.
3 months? Try a month and a half of ACTUAL practice. Contrary to what you might believe not all top 100 players even play. Did you manage to catch Mike Snaer out there for FSU? Do you think he had a great performance? 25 minutes and one bucket. Snaer was a MC DONALDS ALL AMERICAN. It is a HUGE jump from playing HS ball to playing against MEN in college.
maybe some day you will understand.
Personally, in a close game, I want experience out there in the last two minutes. I think calling for a fresh rookie may not be the best answer. Let the leaders finish. They should have the experience to know they're a little gassed (a lot in this case) and dig down to find what they need to win if it is there.
Nobody feels worse about this loss than the guys who left in on the court (they did). We should respect that and get behind them for the next game. Our team far exceeded everyone's expectations, so the fanbase needs to move on.
Beat NC State!
Quote from: mudimitri on November 30, 2009, 09:49:14 AM
the coach cannot control who hits their free throws, who turns the ball over, who commits fouls, etc within a game. What he can control is his in game substitutions and adjustments. Since all these things were going wrong dont you think that maybe it was time to try someone else, or give the guys making the mistake a short break so that they could come back in fresh?
No, the coaches job is to put his team in the best position to win the game, which Buzz did. Giving playing time to Mbao or Fulce or Williams doesn't do that.
Quotealso, isnt it the coachs job to, in 3 months, get 2 top 100 guys more ready than to only be able to produce 0 and 11 minutes of basketball?
There's so many things wrong with that statement it's hard to believe.
#1 - No, the coaches job is to find a way to win as many games as possible right now, player development will always take a back seat to that. If that means those kid's development suffers this year, at the expense of a short rotation in order to win an extra game or two then that's what happens. Coaches don't get a free pass because they were trying to develop someone, that's not their job once the season has started.
#2 - They haven't had three months. First day of practice was little more than a month ago. Throw in the fact that Erik missed a bunch of time or was limited because he had the flu, and his overall practice time is less than that.
#3 - Maymon only played 11 minutes because he got his bell rung and the medical staff was checking him over so he couldn't go back in.
#4 - You very clearly don't understand how freshman actually develop in high major ball, including those that were Top 100 recruits. Take a look at the articles written for Cracked Sidewalks a month or so ago and you'll see the reality. Most freshman, even highly ranked freshman, are either disappointments or non-factors their first year. What is happening right now is the norm for freshman, which you just can't seem to understand, and as a result you've placed unreasonably high expectations on the kids.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on November 29, 2009, 08:37:13 PM
but that loss was on Jimmy Butler. 1-8 from the FT line in the 2nd half. The taking it to the rack philosphy only works if you can knock down the FT's. You could tell he lost his confidence after a few of those misses. Missed 7 in a row when it counted.
You're right, the missed FTs were killers, but I have a hard time pinning this one on Jimmy Butler because everytime he sat, even for a minute, it seemed like we fell apart. If he didn't play, we wouldn't have been in the game at all.
For me, the biggest problem was simply that Florida State played an excellent defensive game. FSU had only 5 blocked shots, which doesn't seem right since it seemed like they blocked 6 or 7 of Hayward's alone. But Lazar really couldn't get his on the interior, and we hit a low percentage of 3s because we were rushing them, and Acker and Cubillan couldn't get us going on the offensive end.. We were just very well defended, and they finally starting making some shots (it's easy to forget, but they missed a lot of bunnies in the first half and early in the 2nd).
At the end of these games, when push comes to shove and the other team can get a 7 footer in the low blocks for a relatively easy bucket, we will be in trouble because we just don't have that kind of near sure thing.
We should have brought down the double team on one of those last few positions, though, and forced them to beat us with a three. They may very well have done it, but I like the odds of missing the relatively open 3 better than a 5 footer with no one really contesting the shot.
Who would you say is the most improved player from last year's team?
I would say Jimmy Butler - the man has stepped up his game hundred fold. Now lets look back at how Jimmy Butler was on the court last year. I remember him early on in the year looking completely at a lost and at times he shouldn't have even been on the court (early in the season at least). However, Buzz gave him game time experience. Now Butler does have an extremely strong work ethic which has contributed to this years success but in large part because of the game time experience he was able to up his game. This has allowed him to be in situations outside the closed environment of a team practice.
One of the only ways you can become better at your game is if you play against talent in game time situations (preferably if that talent is better than you) - simple as that. It challenges you and brings out aspects of your game that you were unaware of. AND most importantly it allows you to see first hand your flaws. You don't just have the coach screaming at you in practice that if you did that in a game time situation you would get scored on - now they can see this firsthand (because lets be honest we all have a little bit of stubborn in all of us and we dont always want to listen to what we are told).
Now I don't think Mudimitri was stating that he wants these rookies or inexperienced players putting in their time during a crucial part of a game but why not give them the opportunity to play some minutes to rest the others. I am not expecting them to get on the floor when we are down to Cuse with 4 minutes left in the game and pull out a victory. Nor I am expecting them to come off the pine and drop a dozen points, four boards, and six assist - it would be nice but foolish to expect. But I do expect them to provide another body on the court so that Hayward, Butler, and DJO don't run themselves ragged. Now I am not suggesting a line change (like hockey) where the entire bench subs in for the guys on the court. All I am saying is using your bench strategically for resting your star players.
And yes they should be able to play the full length of the game and not be horribly fatigued. But you have to account for the fact that they are undersized and having to go up against bigger opponents and that just takes it out of you. You can be as in shape as you want but if you are 220 pounds going against someone who has three inches on you and is 30 pounds heavier, it is going to wear and tear on you.
Quote from: baltimoremufan on November 30, 2009, 12:09:44 PM
Who would you say is the most improved player from last year's team?
I would say Jimmy Butler
You must've seen the top 10 notes on Marquette for ESPN broadcasts.
Did you think that MU was undersized too? Let me guess, Lazar has been playing out of position his entire career too?
Quote from: Boognish_MU on November 30, 2009, 12:33:29 PM
You must've seen the top 10 notes on Marquette for ESPN broadcasts.
Did you think that MU was undersized too? Let me guess, Lazar has been playing out of position his entire career too?
*high five*
Quote from: bma725 on November 30, 2009, 12:06:08 AM
I've been watching Erik Williams play since he was a junior in high school. He's never shown the ability to guard players on the perimeter. His high school coach talked about how the #1 thing he was going to need work on when he got to MU was his defense, because they had their defense set up where all he had to do was stay close to the basket and attempt to block shots. He'd never had to contend with a guy trying to go around him on the perimeter, or bang with another guy on the post, he played the floater...a position you can't have in major d1 ball. In his playing time so far, he's shown good offensive ability and decent shooting touch, but he couldn't defend the guys that he was guarding against low major teams, and he's shown nothing to suggest that would improve against a team at FSU's level. Buzz has talked about EW needing to work on his defense and defensive intensity, and others close to the program have mentioned it as well.
Mbao has looked completely lost on the court defensively. He can't play with out fouling, he can't hedge a screen properly, he can't maintain proper position because he lacks strength. There's a reason the guy is a developmental project. To expect anything from him this year, and likely next year is foolish.
Fatigue is not the reason they lost the game. They lost because they passed the ball poorly and spent too much time going one on one rather than working the ball for a better shot. They lost because they did a terrible job taking care of the ball, especially Buycks who had 5 turnovers and no assists. They lost because Hayward had a terrible shooting first half. They lost because a career 77% free throw shooter went 4 of 12 for the game. They lost because their perimeter shooting which had been a strength all year was god awful. They lost because they got a combined 43 minutes out of Acker and Cubillan, but only a total of 4 points, 3 assists, 2 turnovers and 2 rebounds. They lost because Maymon contributed nothing but fouls in an 11 minute span. They lost because they have no one on the roster that can guard Chris Singleton.
Fatigue is a convenient excuse that people use when their team just didn't play well and covers up what actually happened...they just didn't play to their abilities for the entire game. For this team to win, they have to play at on the razor's edge at all times. They can't afford to have off nights shooting, they can't afford to not hit their free throws, and they certainly can't afford to throw a guy out there for a couple of minutes just to get a rest.
The notion that fatigue was the issue when they played better on Friday despite not having any rest and playing a tough game less than a day before is laughable, and misses the reality of what actually happened on the court.
Let's assume you're correct that Williams can't defend. Neither could Hayward or Butler over the course of the last 10 minutes.
If the defense is going to suck either way, which of two options is better:
*Drain every last ounce of energy of the two guys who are needed MOST to be fresh at game's end?
*Put in a reserve when you have a 17 point lead and preserve the legs of your best players, with the full expectation that you'll give up
some of your lead,
but your best guys will be fresh for the last five minutes--providing both a talent AND psychological boost when you put them back in.
That's the chess game aspect of it referred to above. Once FSU realized that they could beat Hayward and Butler, game was over. Buzz had no more chess pieces to play.
Let's assume Williams comes in.
First, there is no guarantee that FSU will be effective at cutting into the lead. On paper, he's not as good a defender. But FSU will rush to take advantage of him, and that haste may well lead to a mistake or turnover or two. Remember--FSU is a team prone to unforced errors, and at one point had more turnovers than FGs for the tournament.
But even if you're right, and FSU immediately starts to cut into the MU lead by attacking Williams, FSU does not establish confidence that they can beat Hayward & Butler--a huge psychological barrier. Put Butler & Hayward in fresh, and FSU has to be thiking "aw, crap, their good guys are back and we're still 6 or 8 points down".
I respect your technical evaluation of the player's talents--but there was a strategic element that I think you're missing here.
Quote from: Marquette84 on November 30, 2009, 12:46:03 PM
Let's assume you're correct that Williams can't defend. Neither could Hayward or Butler over the course of the last 10 minutes.
If the defense is going to suck either way, which of two options is better:
*Drain every last ounce of energy of the two guys who are needed MOST to be fresh at game's end?
*Put in a reserve when you have a 17 point lead and preserve the legs of your best players, with the full expectation that you'll give up some of your lead, but your best guys will be fresh for the last five minutes--providing both a talent AND psychological boost when you put them back in.
That's the chess game aspect of it referred to above. Once FSU realized that they could beat Hayward and Butler, game was over. Buzz had no more chess pieces to play.
Let's assume Williams comes in.
First, there is no guarantee that FSU will be effective at cutting into the lead. On paper, he's not as good a defender. But FSU will rush to take advantage of him, and that haste may well lead to a mistake or turnover or two. Remember--FSU is a team prone to unforced errors, and at one point had more turnovers than FGs for the tournament.
But even if you're right, and FSU immediately starts to cut into the MU lead by attacking Williams, FSU does not establish confidence that they can beat Hayward & Butler--a huge psychological barrier. Put Butler & Hayward in fresh, and FSU has to be thiking "aw, crap, their good guys are back and we're still 6 or 8 points down".
I respect your technical evaluation of the player's talents--but there was a strategic element that I think you're missing here.
wow MU 84 did you really just type that? i feel infinitely dumber for reading it. Did you ever play a sport? Stick with dungeons and dragons. All i can say is wow!
Quote from: bma725 on November 30, 2009, 08:36:51 AM
If they were occurring because of fatigue, then they would have happened in the Michigan game, where the team was more fatigued, as well. They didn't.
I hate the overused fatigue excuse as well. I did feel that for an extended period of time in the second half they did not give full effort. It looked like playground ball at best.
Buzz on the Homer show said it was not fatigue - that they practice 5 on 5 and there are no substitutes so they are used to it. That said, they looked tired to me, but Buzz should know
i don't know how you could watch the defense we played the last 8-10 minutes of the FSU game and come to anything other than one of the below conclusions:
1) our guys were fatigued/tired
2) our guys stopped trying to play defense
3) our guys didn't want to win the game so they allowed the other team to score uncontested layups and dunks
Does anybody really think that #1 is NOT the right (and fairly obvious) answer?
Fatigue is not the only (and maybe not even the primary) reason we lost this game but it certainly was a factor. How else can you logically explain the defensive letdown at the end of the game? Better execution of the game plan by the other team is about all I can think of.
Quote from: bma725 on November 30, 2009, 10:24:52 AM
No, the coaches job is to put his team in the best position to win the game, which Buzz did. Giving playing time to Mbao or Fulce or Williams doesn't do that.
There's so many things wrong with that statement it's hard to believe.
#1 - No, the coaches job is to find a way to win as many games as possible right now, player development will always take a back seat to that. If that means those kid's development suffers this year, at the expense of a short rotation in order to win an extra game or two then that's what happens. Coaches don't get a free pass because they were trying to develop someone, that's not their job once the season has started.
#2 - They haven't had three months. First day of practice was little more than a month ago. Throw in the fact that Erik missed a bunch of time or was limited because he had the flu, and his overall practice time is less than that.
#3 - Maymon only played 11 minutes because he got his bell rung and the medical staff was checking him over so he couldn't go back in.
#4 - You very clearly don't understand how freshman actually develop in high major ball, including those that were Top 100 recruits. Take a look at the articles written for Cracked Sidewalks a month or so ago and you'll see the reality. Most freshman, even highly ranked freshman, are either disappointments or non-factors their first year. What is happening right now is the norm for freshman, which you just can't seem to understand, and as a result you've placed unreasonably high expectations on the kids.
You are wrong- It seems pretty clear that you are the only one that did not see the fatigue at the end of the game. Perhaps you were too busy watching a future recruit to pay attention to the game? If a bunch of tired guys walking around on defense is the best position to win the game, then Buzz did his job well.
#1- I understand player development takes a back seat to winning games, I merely suggested 5-10 mins per game for a few more players so that you can win games at the end with your stars. I did not say play Fulce or Ewill 20 minutes so that they get better. Also, more successful player development will lead to future wins
#2- You are right. He hasnt had 3 months, hes followed the kid for 3 years. I understand that its only technically been 1 month of practice, but in that month I would like to believe that you can make a kid able to contribute 5 mins. Also, fulce has been here for over a year
#3- Maymon being hurt seems like a perfect opportunity to play the others who get no time
#4- You clearly dont understand that I am not asking for a contribution of great proportions. I am simply asking for a minor contribution, like that typical of freshmen, rather than NO contribution. My expectations arent of the "kids," they are of the head coach. I expect him to be able to fit the pieces he has correctly and with the best combination for the team to win. A large part of that to me is having your best at their best towards the end of the game, and they clearly werent yesterday. Read baltimoremufans post maybe you'll get it
If you are always afraid to lose, then you can never be a winner...Play the kids and perhaps, just perhaps, you'll be pleasantly surprised
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on November 30, 2009, 08:27:06 PM
wow MU 84 did you really just type that? i feel infinitely dumber for reading it. Did you ever play a sport? Stick with dungeons and dragons. All i can say is wow!
Made complete sense to me Mr Hayward. Your posts make peoples eyes bleed, so how about you try saying what you think is wrong with that logic, rather than insult for no reason?
Maybe I should watch what I ask for, before Tom Crean gets blamed for last nights loss. It was after all his recruit, Lazar, that couldnt make a shot right? ::)
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 30, 2009, 10:02:29 AM
I, for one, would take a 'tired' Jimmy Butler over a total liability freshman any day of the week.
I really cannot believe you are trying to make this argument.
3 months? Try a month and a half of ACTUAL practice. Contrary to what you might believe not all top 100 players even play. Did you manage to catch Mike Snaer out there for FSU? Do you think he had a great performance? 25 minutes and one bucket. Snaer was a MC DONALDS ALL AMERICAN. It is a HUGE jump from playing HS ball to playing against MEN in college.
maybe some day you will understand.
What institution educated you? It doesnt seem like it would be marquette...
I completely understand, that I would take a fresh Jimmy Butler over a clearly fatigued jimmy butler during the last 10 mins of the game. Do you not remember this same jimmy butler at this point last season?
I wish I had short term memory like you and thought that jimmy butler was always the way he is now. In the same way that butler took a beating early last season, and was ABUSED on defense, those guys will take some time to come along.
Jimmy Butler WAS the liability a yr ago today, but look at him now. I hated when he got in and got embarassed on D last season, but now I realize that it helped him and was worth it. Unfortunately it seems that your brain doesnt have the capability to look beyond today
Did I say I didn't see the fatigue? NO. I said fatigue isn't why they lost. Fatigue is the convenient excuse losing teams use when they don't want to admit they just didn't play well enough to win the game. FSU was just as and possibly more fatigued than MU. They have a rotation they includes one more person than MU, and they too were playing their 4th game in 6 days. Not only that, but their opponent right before the tournament wasn't a cupcake like South Dakota where the coach could rest the starters, it was Florida. They didn't get to rest their team while a walk on played large portions of time, they were trying to win a game against a ranked opponent. If they are able to overcome the fatigue to win the game, the MU should not be using it as an excuse.
Good teams and good players play through fatigue all the time. They practice with the specific intent of being able to play when they don't have anything left in the tank. That's why they do things like bootcamp. That's why coaches have them do intense conditioning work before scrimmaging and shooting practice, so they will know what it's like to play tired and be able to overcome it. On Friday, when they were clearly in a situation to be more fatigued they were able to overcome and close out Michigan. On Sunday, after spending the previous day resting and hanging out at Disney World, they weren't.
Quote#2- You are right. He hasnt had 3 months, hes followed the kid for 3 years. I understand that its only technically been 1 month of practice, but in that month I would like to believe that you can make a kid able to contribute 5 mins. Also, fulce has been here for over a year
So you're suggesting that Buzz should have had his high school coaches get Erik ready to play right away at MU. Nice thought, but it's never going to happen, and any contact of that nature would be forbidden. Most Big East freshman won't contribute anything meaningful in their first year. We were spoiled with the Amigos and Lazar into thinking that freshman just come in and are ready to contribute right away or at the very least are ready to come in and not take away from the team, that is most definitely not the norm.
Fulce has been here over a year. In that time, he's had a broken knee cap that eliminated him from practice or playing. He's had surgery on that knee that kept him out of off season conditioning and training, and he's had a knee bruise on his other knee that required draining fluid and limits his abilities on the court. Did you not notice that he's been limping as he runs the court the last few games?
Quote
#3- Maymon being hurt seems like a perfect opportunity to play the others who get no time
No, the perfect opportunity to play them is when you don't risk blowing the game by putting them in, like Buzz did against South Dakota. You don't play kids who aren't ready just for the sake of playing them. You seem to think that Buzz has a short rotation in spite of the fact that he has kids ready to contribute just sitting there when in reality he has the short rotation because those kids just aren't ready to contribute. If any one of those guys was ready to contribute meaningful minutes, he would be playing them.
QuoteI am simply asking for a minor contribution, like that typical of freshmen, rather than NO contribution. My expectations arent of the "kids," they are of the head coach. I expect him to be able to fit the pieces he has correctly and with the best combination for the team to win.
He's doing that. A tired Jimmy Butler or a tired Lazar Hayward is a better a player than a fresh Erik Williams or Yous Mbao. Again, most typical freshman in this conference contribute nothing. When Rob was doing the analysis for Cracked Sidewalks we looked at how first year players actually contribute to their teams. The reality is that most don't. More than half don't get enough playing time to actually make a contribution, and of those that do a large portion are non-factors, not even good enough to be quality role players.
Quote from: bma725 on November 30, 2009, 10:27:55 PM
Did I say I didn't see the fatigue? NO. I said fatigue isn't why they lost. Fatigue is the convenient excuse losing teams use when they don't want to admit they just didn't play well enough to win the game. FSU was just as and possibly more fatigued than MU. They have a rotation they includes one more person than MU, and they too were playing their 4th game in 6 days. Not only that, but their opponent right before the tournament wasn't a cupcake like South Dakota where the coach could rest the starters, it was Florida. They didn't get to rest their team while a walk on played large portions of time, they were trying to win a game against a ranked opponent. If they are able to overcome the fatigue to win the game, the MU should not be using it as an excuse.
Good teams and good players play through fatigue all the time. They practice with the specific intent of being able to play when they don't have anything left in the tank. That's why they do things like bootcamp. That's why coaches have them do intense conditioning work before scrimmaging and shooting practice, so they will know what it's like to play tired and be able to overcome it. On Friday, when they were clearly in a situation to be more fatigued they were able to overcome and close out Michigan. On Sunday, after spending the previous day resting and hanging out at Disney World, they weren't.
So you're suggesting that Buzz should have had his high school coaches get Erik ready to play right away at MU. Nice thought, but it's never going to happen, and any contact of that nature would be forbidden. Most Big East freshman won't contribute anything meaningful in their first year. We were spoiled with the Amigos and Lazar into thinking that freshman just come in and are ready to contribute right away or at the very least are ready to come in and not take away from the team, that is most definitely not the norm.
Fulce has been here over a year. In that time, he's had a broken knee cap that eliminated him from practice or playing. He's had surgery on that knee that kept him out of off season conditioning and training, and he's had a knee bruise on his other knee that required draining fluid and limits his abilities on the court. Did you not notice that he's been limping as he runs the court the last few games?
No, the perfect opportunity to play them is when you don't risk blowing the game by putting them in, like Buzz did against South Dakota. You don't play kids who aren't ready just for the sake of playing them. You seem to think that Buzz has a short rotation in spite of the fact that he has kids ready to contribute just sitting there when in reality he has the short rotation because those kids just aren't ready to contribute. If any one of those guys was ready to contribute meaningful minutes, he would be playing them.
He's doing that. A tired Jimmy Butler or a tired Lazar Hayward is a better a player than a fresh Erik Williams or Yous Mbao. Again, most typical freshman in this conference contribute nothing. When Rob was doing the analysis for Cracked Sidewalks we looked at how first year players actually contribute to their teams. The reality is that most don't. More than half don't get enough playing time to actually make a contribution, and of those that do a large portion are non-factors, not even good enough to be quality role players.
Agree to disagree. I think fatigue is the MAIN reason why they lost. Your assertions are that both teams SHOULD have been tired, the players SHOULD be used to playing tired, and that big east freshmen SHOULDNT be able to produce. Everything you say is based on statistical analysis and pre-determined hypotheses. As one poster noted earlier, I have to go with the eye test on this one- Marquette was clearly more fatigued and it caused them to blow a double digit lead and cost them the game
You completely miss my argument- I do not argue that a fresh mbao or williams is better than a tired lazar or butler, I argue that proper usage of the team as a whole can lead to a more fresh lazar, butler, DJO in the last 10, and in my opinion a win.
Noone is asking mbao or williams to produce, because that would inexplicably shatter the expectations cracked sidewalks put together and cause anarchy. I am simply asking for a peasant of 'doomed unproductive freshman stature' to be able to come in and eat up some minutes, so that leads arent blown at the end of games by walking around on defense.
I forgot, we talkin about bootcamp
Quote from: mudimitri on November 30, 2009, 09:51:04 PM
What institution educated you? It doesn't seem like it would be Marquette...
I completely understand, that I would take a fresh Jimmy Butler over a clearly fatigued jimmy butler during the last 10 mins of the game. Do you not remember this same jimmy butler at this point last season?
I wish I had short term memory like you and thought that jimmy butler was always the way he is now. In the same way that butler took a beating early last season, and was ABUSED on defense, those guys will take some time to come along.
Jimmy Butler WAS the liability a yr ago today, but look at him now. I hated when he got in and got embarrassed on D last season, but now I realize that it helped him and was worth it. Unfortunately it seems that your brain doesnt have the capability to look beyond today
Kid, I went to Marquette, and graduated in 4 years in a major you probably couldn't have completed in 6 years. Usually those who resort to name calling are the ones who know they have lost the argument. I'll leave it at that.
If you think Jimmy B learned everything from being in a game and nothing in practice (where the team is 90% of the time) I don't know what to tell you. Yes, playing in games helps, but it
does not guarantee success. Your logic is totally faulty. Simply by playing, a freshman does not get better. If a freshman goes in the game and doesn't understand the defense or his role he will learn NOTHING, and he will be a detriment to the team.
It is quite clear to everyone here that you know very little about college basketball other than what you
think you know. Notice how no one is agreeing with you?
Lets ease off the pissing match fellas.
The issue here is that you need both practice and game time experience to become a better player and without either you are left behind. You are correct to say that part of learning the game is spent on the practice court but that practice is going to prepare you for game time - which you cant experience unless you are on the court in a GAME and not in a scrimmage in practice. But this seems to have become an agree to disagree argument - thus a moot point b/n us.
Lets get a win against State this weekend. Ring out ahoya!
I disagree that the loss was entirely Jimmy Butler's fault. The team is small and when facing Florida State's taller team they are bound to run out of steam at some point. However, Butler did go 4/12 at the line and that hurt the team.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 01, 2009, 12:40:07 PM
Kid, I went to Marquette, and graduated in 4 years in a major you probably couldn't have completed in 6 years. Usually those who resort to name calling are the ones who know they have lost the argument. I'll leave it at that.
If you think Jimmy B learned everything from being in a game and nothing in practice (where the team is 90% of the time) I don't know what to tell you. Yes, playing in games helps, but it does not guarantee success. Your logic is totally faulty. Simply by playing, a freshman does not get better. If a freshman goes in the game and doesn't understand the defense or his role he will learn NOTHING, and he will be a detriment to the team.
It is quite clear to everyone here that you know very little about college basketball other than what you think you know. Notice how no one is agreeing with you?
In fact, in some cases a freshman can be ruined by being thrown into a situation they are not fully prepared for. I'd submit that both Brandon Bell and Dameon Mason fit that bill.
Given how little Fulce played, I would assume his knees are bothering him. Maymon hit his head pretty hard on the floor in the second half. There are a lot of things that could have gone differently. There were three or four defensive rebounds we had in our hands in the second half that we ended up losing. I would blame the loss on that.
Sometimes a play like Lazar stepping over the end line against Missouri or Acker having his pass stolen by Flynn in the Syracuse loss stands out for the reason we lost a game. However, every player that played in these games could have done something different that would have won those game for us. The loss was a team loss, not a specific player loss.
I'm looking at the second half collapse in the Old Spice as a good thing for MU in the long run...I'd rather see the young squad we have come into games with UW and the Big East hungry and a little more aware of the effort THE BEAST requires to win games, rather than coming in with inflated egos and just expecting to roll.
As for Jiimmy..... All you critics have obviously never had a child...attacking an amateur athlete...
COME AFTER ME, IM A MAN, IM 40---That's all I've got to say, Makes me wanna puke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoMmbUmKN0E
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 01, 2009, 12:40:07 PM
Kid, I went to Marquette, and graduated in 4 years in a major you probably couldn't have completed in 6 years. Usually those who resort to name calling are the ones who know they have lost the argument. I'll leave it at that.
If you think Jimmy B learned everything from being in a game and nothing in practice (where the team is 90% of the time) I don't know what to tell you. Yes, playing in games helps, but it does not guarantee success. Your logic is totally faulty. Simply by playing, a freshman does not get better. If a freshman goes in the game and doesn't understand the defense or his role he will learn NOTHING, and he will be a detriment to the team.
It is quite clear to everyone here that you know very little about college basketball other than what you think you know. Notice how no one is agreeing with you?
Child, I don't wanna trouble you with my academic accomplishments because they would embarrass you and I don't wanna toot my own horn.
Two different arguments here:
1. u are changing the main subject that the team looked tired, and in my opinion it cost them the game- this is the main reason some of the bench warmers should have gotten some PT, so that the starters would be more fresh towards the end
2. you seem to claim that i am saying practice isn't important. i know it is, especially for young kids. i disagree, however, that actual gametime isn't a huge help. I think that even if a freshman doesn't clearly understand the defense or his role he still learns A TON from actual gametime experience. Some kids just click in an actual game setting, and you can use that as a building block. Others absolutely suffer, and you have film to show them their mistakes. Either way, its an excellent teaching tool, and it is quite clear that you know nothing about any sport if u dint understand that. There is no better lesson in athletics than going into an actual game and getting your arse handed to you
By looking at the thread it seems that only one person is agreeing with you, while many have said fatigue may have been a key component to the loss, and they would've liked to see some time for those other guys
Since I am one step ahead of you in life and love, I can already foresee your argument that its idiotic to play a kid just so that he can get embarrassed so that he learns a lesson, as it is a detriment to the team. I am talking about the cupcakes in particular, or instances in games where u can afford to give your studs a breather and insert a "miserable unproductive freshman" for a few minutes at a time. Marquette has had many of these moments this season
Knock it off. Discuss with respect or I'll give you some virtual alone time to think about it. This isn't kindergarten so grow up. Nobody else wants to read it.
/mod hat
sorry boss. ive witnessed chicos v hayward bouts much worse, this was merely an undercard- point taken though
we are marquette ;D
grow up.
I'd take BMA's opinion over 95% of the people on this board.
additionally, I would not have made the argument you claim that I would have made. I'd have stuck to the same argument that I have from the first post I made in this thread rather than shuffling my feet, and changing my stance little by little as you have.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on December 02, 2009, 11:39:14 AM
grow up.
I'd take BMA's opinion over 95% of the people on this board.
additionally, I would not have made the argument you claim that I would have made. I'd have stuck to the same argument that I have from the first post I made in this thread rather than shuffling my feet, and changing my stance little by little as you have.
Take a look at the "interesting dots to connect thread." I respect everyones opinion, especially BMA's on certain things, but it seems fairly obvious that many agree with me on the matter. Case closed
because you say it is?