Shoulda had this one...
Tough game, lets do some work in the rest of our non-conference schedule now.
expletive:(acker)
we would be such a good team with cadougan.....
expletive our teams complete inability to win a game within the final seconds over the last 3 seasons.
Those guys played their hearts out. No shame in that loss
doomed by first half inability to take advantage of turnovers and second half free throw shooting. Great effort but blew it.
once again, MU finds another exruciatingly painful way to lose a close one. To not even get a shot off with that opportunity is gut wrenching and ridiculous. But we deserve to lose when you blow that big of a lead and cant hit a mother#$#$Ring free throw. just an awful feeling
Quote from: jenningstoMU on November 29, 2009, 08:35:21 PM
we would be such a good team with cadougan.....
Based on his 0 minutes of practice time much less game action.
Acker's not the one who bricked 8 free throws. Dominic James would have a hard time doing that.
I think it was fatigue. Jimmy's free thow shooting was the difference.
The last few FSU possessions our defense looked weak.
Buzz must learn to call time outs to stop opponents' runs. The 10-2 run he let FSU go on to get back in the game without calling a TO in the 2nd half was killer. Our players obviously got fatigued in the 2nd half - use TO's better to rest them and stop FSU momentum.
watching that it seemed one thing killed us and that was fatigue. Buzz needs to find a way to keep this team fresh in tournament times because this will happen again later on in the season. Overall an ugly game and one we totally blew.
Quote from: jenningstoMU on November 29, 2009, 08:33:58 PM
expletive:(acker)
What's your beef with Acker? Kid plays with heart, helped our team into the second round last year. He has D1 game experience, unlike the majority of our players... and I trust him with the ball in his hands as much as anyone on this team
I now see what all the talk is of Buzz's time outs. Was he trying to tire FSU or us? That was a very long stretch for both teams. Very tough second half for our boys. Upsetting to give up a 17 pt lead. A lot can be said for FSU's halftime adjustments.
Its too bad we blew this. Should we have won this game? Yes. I'm not going to get too worked up though, we can learn a lot from this game. I'll take a big east win in february over this game in november.
Great effort, great heart, tragic outcome. Feel for the guys..competed their butts off. FSU's size took its toll in the end. That said it took a very off performance from the free throw line from Jimmy B, for FSU to win. No doubt JB was exhausted from battling the FSU bigs all game. I'm proud of our guys - a great run, largely unexpected by most MU fans. We showed we will be an NCAA caliber team...more than anyone would have thought possible once the Big 3 gradutated.
Lack of depth. We got tired against a team that was much deeper.
Joe Fulce really doesn't help us much. Acker and Cubillan are so limited - I know they both play hard, but sometimes that just isn't enough. I really wish that Williams would develop a little quicker.
Let's calm down. How many people on this board thought MU would go this far? Very few. They played well throughout the tournament and were undone by bad free throw shooting at the end--which I put on fatigue. As for me, I enjoyed the tournament, we should have won it, but all in all I'm impressed with this group.
Quote from: Mayor McCheese on November 29, 2009, 08:41:05 PM
What's your beef with Acker? Kid plays with heart, helped our team into the second round last year. He has D1 game experience, unlike the majority of our players... and I trust him with the ball in his hands as much as anyone on this team
i dont trust him with the ball in his hands. i am scared everytime he has the ball. why can't DJO or buycks play point? in our current offense the point is nothing more than bringing up the ball and then the guards are basically interchangeable. why can't DJO or buycks bring up the ball?
nothing against acker personally, but he is just not D-1 material. its creans fault, not ackers
Would actually like to see Marquette take a game winning shot without a turnover . . . expletive disappointing.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on November 29, 2009, 08:37:04 PM
Those guys played their hearts out. No shame in that loss
Agreed, but seriously... when was the last time MU won in the final seconds? 2006 against Pitt and even then we nearly blew it.
Quote from: classof70 on November 29, 2009, 08:44:17 PM
Let's calm down. How many people on this board thought MU would go this far? Very few. They played well throughout the tournament and were undone by bad free throw shooting at the end--which I put on fatigue. As for me, I enjoyed the tournament, we should have won it, but all in all I'm impressed with this group.
Calm down? Blew a 17 point lead. The criteria is not how many thought we'd get this far. It is how we gave up a commanding lead.
It's hard to rest everyone when 1) matchups are important and 2) your bench is thin (like Frozen A and Mbao are really going to see time in a game like this).
But
MU
Frakked
Sh*t
Up
in the end.
Expletive other team's big players hitting game winners over our smaller players.
Quote from: jenningstoMU on November 29, 2009, 08:44:46 PM
i dont trust him with the ball in his hands. i am scared everytime he has the ball. why can't DJO or buycks play point? in our current offense the point is nothing more than bringing up the ball and then the guards are basically interchangeable. why can't DJO or buycks bring up the ball?
nothing against acker personally, but he is just not D-1 material. its creans fault, not ackers
he had 1 turnover bud. buycks is way more TO prone, he had 5. djo had 2.
While it was a nice tournament run, FSU is at best, a middle of the pack Big East team. It will be a long season if Marquette is that drained at the end of a game. The only way they compete in the Big East is putting together those first 30 minutes of effort. Not sure if Marquette is capable of putting together 40 minutes of effort.
Butler makes half his free throws, this isn't even a game down the stretch. Disappointing but these guys are going to win some games, exciting team. If this is "rebuilding," I like it.
Quote from: warriorfred on November 29, 2009, 08:50:44 PM
While it was a nice tournament run, FSU is at best, a middle of the pack Big East team. It will be a long season if Marquette is that drained at the end of a game. The only way they compete in the Big East is putting together those first 30 minutes of effort. Not sure if Marquette is capable of putting together 40 minutes of effort.
Good point.
Some coaches call timeouts to shorten the game to 5 min periods.
But as the announcers had mentioned, Buzz knew a TV TO was coming up, but FSU put up at least 5 points in that period before the break.
MU has been on the short end of the stick in a lot of close games. They will get it turned around. As for Buzz not calling timeouts...good point that he probably should have used a few more to give the guys a breather. That said, I think he wants his guys to develop the toughness to fight through the adversity of a team making a run..a figure it out on your own philosophy...there is a toughness that comes out of that. Granted if it costs the team a loss, that is a not worth the lesson. But, lets not 2nd guess Buzz..i love the direction the program is headed under Buzz.
Quote from: classof70 on November 29, 2009, 08:44:17 PM
Let's calm down. How many people on this board thought MU would go this far? Very few. They played well throughout the tournament and were undone by bad free throw shooting at the end--which I put on fatigue. As for me, I enjoyed the tournament, we should have won it, but all in all I'm impressed with this group.
There's enough time for the back-patting over the next six days but for now there should be serious discussion of what will likely be recurrent themes this season: 1) fatigue; 2) poor free throw shooting due to fatigue; 3) careless mistakes when up big (bad inbounds passes; not grabbing the ball with two hands before four guys run out for a break, etc); 4) post defense -- when to double and when to not; more elsewhere.
I just don't understand the deal with Odom. He was feeling it in first half. Why not run more offense through him in second half? It's like they forgot he was on court the first eight minutes of second half. Even stranger when you consider Buzz went to him in the waning seconds of both halves.
In the end, 2-1 out of Orlando is great but there were moments of concern in this game that would've been glossed over if they won but will now be discussed during a long and quiet week.
I'm not the biggest Acker fan, but he made a great driving layup late that Cubillan would have never made.
Cubillan had a wide open three that he was lucky he hit rim on. I would rather have Acker running the point than Cubillan. I'm not sure what Cubillan has over Acker in terms of playing time. People will claim defense, but waving your arms and running around like a chicken with your head cut off isn't my idea of defense. Acker is definitely better at driving the ball, and I think is a better shooter.
Quote from: warriorfred on November 29, 2009, 08:50:44 PM
While it was a nice tournament run, FSU is at best, a middle of the pack Big East team. It will be a long season if Marquette is that drained at the end of a game. The only way they compete in the Big East is putting together those first 30 minutes of effort. Not sure if Marquette is capable of putting together 40 minutes of effort.
So, the games against Michigan and Xavier weren't 40 minutes of effort each...? Explain
Acker has definitely made better use of his time on the court as a starter than Cubillan. Mo is much better than the off-the-bench version in years past. We are still, however, at a disadvantage with his diminutive stature. Height doesn't suffer fatigue, quickness does.
We played 2 games in 24 hours and look fresh. Next game is 56 hours later and we're gassed. Not sure I get it.
Quote from: MUeng on November 29, 2009, 08:40:42 PM
watching that it seemed one thing killed us and that was fatigue. Buzz needs to find a way to keep this team fresh in tournament times because this will happen again later on in the season. Overall an ugly game and one we totally blew.
We will NEED to play 10 deep. Erik and Mbao will have to get minutes starting next game - hopefully they practice their $%^#S off this next week. NCState will not be an easy game.
Quote from: Daniel on November 29, 2009, 09:08:12 PM
We will NEED to play 10 deep. Erik and Mbao will have to get minutes starting next game - hopefully they practice their $%^#S off this next week. NCState will not be an easy game.
No, we NEED to play our best players. Playing 10, for the sake of playing 10, doesnt make any damn sense.
While it was a nice tournament run, FSU is at best, a middle of the pack Big East team. It will be a long season if Marquette is that drained at the end of a game. The only way they compete in the Big East is putting together those first 30 minutes of effort. Not sure if Marquette is capable of putting together 40 minutes of effort.
So, the games against Michigan and Xavier weren't 40 minutes of effort each...? Explain
As a follow-up, this was a championship game on one day's rest. If Marquette cannot put forth a full 40 minutes, that will be a problem later in the season; late February, Big East tournament, and the post-season.
While the Xavier and Michigan games were great, and Marquette showed intensity the entire games, they lacked that intensity against FSU. Marquette is not deep enough or talented enough to take off a few minutes a game. So, yes, it is a concern that they looked dead tired after 30 minutes.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on November 29, 2009, 08:52:33 PM
Good point.
Some coaches call timeouts to shorten the game to 5 min periods.
But as the announcers had mentioned, Buzz knew a TV TO was coming up, but FSU put up at least 5 points in that period before the break.
Not really a good point at all. They played 4 games in 6 days. Fatigue will happen to a young team in a stretch like that. Thankfully they won't have another stretch like this until the BET.
Relax. Losses will happen, but I don't think it will be nearly as many as most here thought only last week.
Quote from: MUsoxfan on November 29, 2009, 09:21:02 PM
Not really a good point at all. They played 4 games in 6 days. Fatigue will happen to a young team in a stretch like that. Thankfully they won't have another stretch like this until the BET.
Relax. Losses will happen, but I don't think it will be nearly as many as most here thought only last week.
I'm relaxed but MU wasn't drubbed in throughout this game; they were in control.
Just feeling sour as this young club learns to finish TWO halves and maintain a lead.
They finished in every game previous tonight. Every team blows a lead now and again. It's never pleasant to watch if you're a fan of the team pissing away a lead, but I think if there was ever a time to do it, it's now. I think it was mostly fatigue, and as I've said...there won't be another stretch of games like this for months. By then, there should be no comparison in the level of conditioning.
Quote from: warriorfred on November 29, 2009, 09:14:17 PM
While it was a nice tournament run, FSU is at best, a middle of the pack Big East team. It will be a long season if Marquette is that drained at the end of a game. The only way they compete in the Big East is putting together those first 30 minutes of effort. Not sure if Marquette is capable of putting together 40 minutes of effort.
So, the games against Michigan and Xavier weren't 40 minutes of effort each...? Explain
As a follow-up, this was a championship game on one day's rest. If Marquette cannot put forth a full 40 minutes, that will be a problem later in the season; late February, Big East tournament, and the post-season.
While the Xavier and Michigan games were great, and Marquette showed intensity the entire games, they lacked that intensity against FSU. Marquette is not deep enough or talented enough to take off a few minutes a game. So, yes, it is a concern that they looked dead tired after 30 minutes.
They did not lack intensity. They were tired. FSU could match up with MU by going small. That is what depth does for you. The difference with Xavier and Michigan is that they simply couldn't match.
Quote from: GOMU1104 on November 29, 2009, 09:10:53 PM
No, we NEED to play our best players. Playing 10, for the sake of playing 10, doesnt make any damn sense.
I know Buzz's short rotation last year of 6-7 worked, but we were playing some of the best players in MU's history that played together for 4 years. These guys need to gain experience now for instances of players being gassed, foul trouble, etc. EWill and Mbao will hopefully get more actual playing time early in the season. Late in the season you go with the players that will get you the W, but to get there you need to keep those players fresh.
Until we get some contributing size, no lead is safe and other teams will be able to take advantage.
Quote from: goldeneagles09 on November 29, 2009, 09:37:09 PM
I know Buzz's short rotation last year of 6-7 worked, but we were playing some of the best players in MU's history that played together for 4 years. These guys need to gain experience now for instances of players being gassed, foul trouble, etc. EWill and Mbao will hopefully get more actual playing time early in the season. Late in the season you go with the players that will get you the W, but to get there you need to keep those players fresh.
They don't play until Friday. There is plenty of time to rest. No need to put players on the floor that don't help you.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on November 29, 2009, 08:37:04 PM
Those guys played their hearts out. No shame in that loss
Horsesh*t. They had a top half ACC team down 16 and couldn't step on the throat. Not to mention Buzz got his ass handed to him in the second half by Leonard F-ing Hamilton. It was like watching the second half of Stanford all over again.
This is a bad loss. Won't look like it on paper, but it was.
Intensity, fatigue, two sides of the same coin, and a disappointing result. While I appreciate the posters here telling everyone to relax, and I really do appreciate their long-term perspective, Marquette needs every win it can get to make the tourney. It was painful to see the win slip away, and unfortunately for Marquette this season every game is important. Hopefully it will look better tomorrow morning.
When FSU went small the announcer commented that they were still bigger than MU at every position.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 29, 2009, 09:39:35 PM
They don't play until Friday. There is plenty of time to rest. No need to put players on the floor that don't help you.
Better to put players on the floor that are walking around on defense? Yes you put in players that dont help you when u are up 17 to rest the guys that you will need down the stretch. Obviously, it helps a bit if youve used those players more than 5 mins all season
I think FSU is a clear NCAA tourney team. I like seeing how much we can disrupt a big team - the average height of their top 6 scores was 6-foot-8 1/2 to our 6-foot-2 - and teams almost can't leave too many big guys on the floor because they can't cover us. The big concern is end of games. I don't think it's a coincidence we lose so many key 1 point games - I think with both sides dead tired at the end of games the height really does kill us. Opponents put 5-footers over us to win, and it's awefully hard for a guy whose been pressing all day on our side to get up and stick a jumper. I do think we've got to get more minutes for Maymon, and at least try Mbao and Erik Williams for some stretches to stand around the basket and give us an inside presents just for a few minutes a game when we are too tired to keep pressing. We'll be fine, still way ahead of where we thought we'd be right now.
Quote from: bamamarquettefan on November 29, 2009, 10:09:00 PM
I think FSU is a clear NCAA tourney team. I like seeing how much we can disrupt a big team - the average height of their top 6 scores was 6-foot-8 1/2 to our 6-foot-2 - and teams almost can't leave too many big guys on the floor because they can't cover us. The big concern is end of games. I don't think it's a coincidence we lose so many key 1 point games - I think with both sides dead tired at the end of games the height really does kill us. Opponents put 5-footers over us to win, and it's awefully hard for a guy whose been pressing all day on our side to get up and stick a jumper. I do think we've got to get more minutes for Maymon, and at least try Mbao and Erik Williams for some stretches to stand around the basket and give us an inside presents just for a few minutes a game when we are too tired to keep pressing. We'll be fine, still way ahead of where we thought we'd be right now.
I agree 100%. Everyone loves the 8 man rotation and it will work fine except when you play a lot of games in a short span. When you play three games in four days guys get tired when they play 30+ minutes every game. Especially at the pace we do. Normally we can get away with 8 men. However, tourneys and when we have a packed schedule of games we need to play 9-10.
Quote from: jenningstoMU on November 29, 2009, 08:44:46 PM
i dont trust him with the ball in his hands. i am scared everytime he has the ball. why can't DJO or buycks play point? in our current offense the point is nothing more than bringing up the ball and then the guards are basically interchangeable. why can't DJO or buycks bring up the ball?
nothing against acker personally, but he is just not D-1 material. its creans fault, not ackers
Mo isn't a great player, but he had 40% of our assists tonight (despite playing fewer minutes than DJO or Dwight) and only 1 turnover.
Dwight had 5 turnovers and two assists.
DJO had zero assists, despite playing about 7 extra minutes....he also had more turnovers, including the crucial one with 4 seconds left.
For the team, we only had 5 assists today, which isn't going to get it done.
Even with the FT debacle, the assists are what jumped out at me right away.
So far this season they've had good AST-FG and AST-TO ratios.
Tonight- 5-21 and 5-16. Oof.
Cubillan had an awful night and assist total would have been much higher had Lazar not bricked so many shots in first half.
Quote from: ecompt on November 29, 2009, 10:56:31 PM
Cubillan had an awful night and assist total would have been much higher had Lazar not bricked so many shots in first half.
At the risk of the all-out "you're an idiot" assault, is there a point where the whole "keep attacking" thing for some of Lazar's stuff stops? The whole pound it inside and get stuffed five times but look like a genius when it works on the sixth or force up five bad jumpers and look like the savior when number six falls to put us back up by one...this tournament he went 9-22, 7-17, and 8-21. Especially considering we were outrebounded in the first and third games that's a lot of possessions killed by a lot of missed field goal attempts, many of which are forced. I'm sure a lot of it is that there just isn't enough firepower around him to carry the load and he is the best player, so hopefully other players can take some of the load off of him...to be honest, there are too many times when we can't count on anyone else to give us a basket yet and that is probably why too much of a load is falling on Lazar. Butler's field goal percentage feels almost too high in that it still seems like he's afraid of making some mistakes, and if Buycks is at all a scorer he's got to take more than four shots in 34 minutes.
Impossible to insert an "Expletive" First time in years I haven't during a game and it sure felt great. This team busted their balls to the wall and I enjoyed every minute of it, win or lose. Good times coming for yrs.
Quote from: redddog13 on November 29, 2009, 11:33:55 PM
Impossible to insert an "Expletive" First time in years I haven't during a game and it sure felt great. This team busted their balls to the wall and I enjoyed every minute of it, win or lose. Good times coming for yrs.
I concur. I was pissed for about 2min after the game until I realized this team will be outstanding and will exceed all my expectations. Outside of '03 and'08 I haven't been as excited as I am now to watch a team grow and play ball.
Quote from: MUsoxfan on November 29, 2009, 11:46:04 PM
I concur. I was pissed for about 2min after the game until I realized this team will be outstanding and will exceed all my expectations. Outside of '03 and'08 I haven't been as excited as I am now to watch a team grow and play ball.
Yippee. A frackin moral victory. Blahhhhhh.
Quote from: ATWizJr on November 30, 2009, 12:02:53 AM
Yippee. A frackin moral victory. Blahhhhhh.
Yeah, kinda. Did you expect the Warriors to win the tourney? Did you even expect them to beat Xavier? Certainly very few people expected them to beat Michigan. Yeah, it wouldve been nice to beat FSU, however this team will recover. It's a young team that will be in the top 1/3 of the Big East at the end of the year.
Quote from: MUsoxfan on November 30, 2009, 01:18:29 AM
Yeah, kinda. Did you expect the Warriors to win the tourney? Did you even expect them to beat Xavier? Certainly very few people expected them to beat Michigan. Yeah, it wouldve been nice to beat FSU, however this team will recover. It's a young team that will be in the top 1/3 of the Big East at the end of the year.
Yeah, kinda did expect them to win the tourney when they had a 17 point lead in the second half of the title game. Didn't you?
With this team, at this point in the season I can better tolerate a loss where were fall apart at the end than where we just look terrible and get dominated the whole way. While the loss is inexcusable, there are plenty of positives to bring away like, "Hey, we did better than just play with these guys for most of the game. Now we need to figure out how to finish."
Remember, no player on this team has ever been the goto guy at the end of a game playing D1 ball. They need to figure that out and in time I am confident they will. That is fixable.
Quote from: Ruby on November 30, 2009, 08:28:47 AM
With this team, at this point in the season I can better tolerate a loss where were fall apart at the end than where we just look terrible and get dominated the whole way. While the loss is inexcusable, there are plenty of positives to bring away like, "Hey, we did better than just play with these guys for most of the game. Now we need to figure out how to finish."
Remember, no player on this team has ever been the goto guy at the end of a game playing D1 ball. They need to figure that out and in time I am confident they will. That is fixable.
You know what really sticks in my craw? People who use the word "inexcusable" in one sentence and then make excuses in the next.
Rather than just use words that people in the media use (incorrectly most times) drop the buzz words and form an original thought.
Quote from: ATWizJr on November 30, 2009, 07:55:21 AM
Yeah, kinda did expect them to win the tourney when they had a 17 point lead in the second half of the title game. Didn't you?
But on Thursday morning, before a game was played, did you have any thought in your head of MU winning all 3 games this weekend. I for one didn't. I was hoping for a well fought game each time but most likely a loss to Xavier or Michigan. When that didn't happen, I thought our aggressive play could wear out FSU's guards and get a victory. Had we hit so many of the missed shots we took early or had Butler made half of his free throws, we win. I was pissed last night when we collapsed in the second half. That doesn't mean I'm not happy with the overall result of the weekend. Going 2-1 and beating two likely tournament teams while losing to a third is nice to see.
We were gassed in the second half because of our style. FSU played slow the first two games they had and with their size advantage, they were able to keep fresh longer. It also helps having a height advantage even when they played with 4 guards.
It's not about expectations before the game.
When we had double digit leads on Thursday and Friday I expected us to win the game. When we led by 17 yesterday I expected the same. Saying you are happy with losing in the final is like Elin saying she's happy that Tiger only cheated once. Not buyin' it.