MUScoop

I'm voting for TC.  His recruiting class and BU loss must make IU feel like they were duped.  The rest are largely performing as expected.

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on November 21, 2009, 09:43:20 PM
I'm voting for TC.  His recruiting class and BU loss must make IU feel like they were duped.  The rest are largely performing as expected.

Didn't TC's first recruiting class get ranked higher than Buzz's?  I know the second class didn't, but I'm almost positive the first one did...his 2011 class is also shaping up to be very good.

I voted for Rick...health will take it's toll.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 21, 2009, 10:02:52 PM
Didn't TC's first recruiting class get ranked higher than Buzz's?  I know the second class didn't, but I'm almost positive the first one did...his 2011 class is also shaping up to be very good.

I voted for Rick...health will take it's toll.

Ditto.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 21, 2009, 10:02:52 PM
Didn't TC's first recruiting class get ranked higher than Buzz's?  I know the second class didn't, but I'm almost positive the first one did...his 2011 class is also shaping up to be very good.

I voted for Rick...health will take it's toll.

You know what? Buzz looks a little huskier and still chews. Plus all that sweet tea. Dude's got to get a health grip too before he pops a gasket.

Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 21, 2009, 10:07:19 PM

You know what? Buzz looks a little huskier and still chews. Plus all that sweet tea. Dude's got to get a health grip too before he pops a gasket.

I'm glad he's running to Indy.  Hope he keeps it up.

I voted for KO. I think USC will be in the market this offseason.

Rick. He's been a media darling, post-Utah coaching career. He's a shadow of his former self.

But KO may get the boot first...since the Pac-10 is a power conference and the alumni are rich and powerful.

Crean needs Dwade or he is done - fans  dont have that much patience.

Hopefully it's not Buzz.  If it is, something doesn't bode well for Marquette and/or Buzz.  I hope the Buzz era at Marquette is a long prosperous one for both parties.

KO.   They don't really want him there and he is going to be a poor fit.    Second place, Majerus for health reasons.   Buzz keeps saying all the right things about staying at MU as long as they will have him, how the MU's mission matches up with his faith.    Maybe coachspeak, maybe the truth.    I hope it is the latter.      TC will be fine at IU if the fanbase gives him the 4-5 years he is going to need.    It is a coin flip as to whether that happens.   I will say he is gong from IU before Buzz leaves MU. 

How old is Deane BTW? Upper 50s (assuming he wouldn't retire for at least another 5 years or so)?

In order, I'd rank KO 1st, Majerus 2nd, Crean 3rd, Deane 4th and Buzz 5th.

IU just lost to Geoge MAson...Mason is younger than IU with 11 freshman and sophomores

IU will be fine.  They are not getting stomped on.  They do not have a Novak/Chapman type leader on their team to help them get through these close games.  IU fans will give Crean 4 years before getting impatient.  They just got through Davis and Sampson.  A good "image" coach is all they are looking for at IU in the short term.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 21, 2009, 10:02:52 PM
Didn't TC's first recruiting class get ranked higher than Buzz's?  I know the second class didn't, but I'm almost positive the first one did...his 2011 class is also shaping up to be very good.

I voted for Rick...health will take it's toll.

I wasn't aware rankings actually won you games.

Sort of like getting a high draft choice doesn't guarantee success.

FWIW I voted for Rick due to size, and he has retired a few times already.

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on November 22, 2009, 03:52:48 PM
I wasn't aware rankings actually won you games.

Sort of like getting a high draft choice doesn't guarantee success.

FWIW I voted for Rick due to size, and he has retired a few times already.

Rercruiting classes don't win games, but for some reason several people here keep saying how bad IU's recruiting classes have been under Crean....when one of them was ranked higher than MU's under Buzz.  Seems odd thing to say quite frankly.

Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on November 22, 2009, 11:55:52 AM
IU just lost to Geoge MAson...Mason is younger than IU with 11 freshman and sophomores

You remain a piece of work.

George Mason started no freshmen and no first year players to their program.  They start a junior and a senior.

IU started two freshmen and another first year player to their program...60% of their starters are first year IU players.  Their other two starters are sophomores. 

Funny when you dig into the facts how things change.  No agenda, right Hayward.    ::)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 23, 2009, 01:06:34 AM
You remain a piece of work.

George Mason started no freshmen and no first year players to their program.  They start a junior and a senior.

IU started two freshmen and another first year player to their program...60% of their starters are first year IU players.  Their other two starters are sophomores. 

Funny when you dig into the facts how things change.  No agenda, right Hayward.    ::)

Chicos,

I just noticed your resemblance to 2002alum.  Or are you really 2002alum, just using him as your Riley/Joanie alter ego.

Quote from: mu-rara on November 23, 2009, 09:14:23 AM
Chicos,

I just noticed your resemblance to 2002alum.  Or are you really 2002alum, just using him as your Riley/Joanie alter ego.

If 2002 uses facts, then yes we are very similar.   ;D

No Mr. Hayward option?

Quote from: mu-rara on November 23, 2009, 09:14:23 AM
Chicos,

I just noticed your resemblance to 2002alum.  Or are you really 2002alum, just using him as your Riley/Joanie alter ego.

Chicos uses more emoticons.  ;)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 23, 2009, 09:50:34 AM
If 2002 uses facts, then yes we are very similar.   ;D

He had been the biggest defender of all things TC, but now there is a rival.

Don't get me wrong...I am in the TC was a net positive for MU camp, but he was beginning to wear out his welcome, within MU Athletics and the MU fan base.  

My biggest issue was signing a 10 year contract and bailing after 2 years.  MU was generous (maybe overly generous) with the length of contract.   It is a signal to recruits that they don't need to worry about the coach being fired.  To leave after 2 years is douchebaggery.  He owed MU more that that.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 21, 2009, 10:02:52 PM
Didn't TC's first recruiting class get ranked higher than Buzz's?  I know the second class didn't, but I'm almost positive the first one did...his 2011 class is also shaping up to be very good.

I voted for Rick...health will take it's toll.

After the April 1st surprise, TC added former MU recruit D Williams (since transferred to Ole Miss) to The IU 2008 class. Buzz added Jimmy Butler. Advantage, Buzz. 2009, Crean's class gets a slight edge from most evaluators though MU is rated #1 by Coleman. 2010, another knockout for Buzz. So with tons of pt to offer at top five national program Indiana, TC's results look lackluster at best. Very few of the Marquette faithful thought Buzz would overcome TC's built in advantages at IU this decisively. None of the IU faithful did. Add IU's lackluster on court performances to the mix and the natives are getting restless. Verbals from a couple of 4 stars in the 2011 class won't be enough to placate Hoosier followers. Anything short of a Selby commit this spring will mean major disappointment. After all, as TC is fond of saying, "it's Indiana, it's Indiana".

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 23, 2009, 10:11:43 AM
After the April 1st surprise, TC added former MU recruit D Williams (since transferred to Ole Miss) to The IU 2008 class. Buzz added Jimmy Butler. Advantage, Buzz. 2009, Crean's class gets a slight edge from most evaluators though MU is rated #1 by Coleman. 2010, another knockout for Buzz. So with tons of pt to offer at top five national program Indiana, TC's results look lackluster at best. Very few of the Marquette faithful thought Buzz would overcome TC's built in advantages at IU this decisively. None of the IU faithful did. Add IU's lackluster on court performances to the mix and the natives are getting restless. Verbals from a couple of 4 stars in the 2011 class won't be enough to placate Hoosier followers. Anything short of a Selby commit this spring will mean major disappointment. After all, as TC is fond of saying, "it's Indiana, it's Indiana".

LOL.  Buzz inherited a great situation.  TC took over a nuclear disaster.  The comparisons are not apt.

I wish them both the best.  I hope Buzz is here 20 years, because it means things are going great.  I hope TC turns around a once proud program that has been stained and tarnished not only on the court, but more importantly in the classroom and off the court.

Chico's, I know you understood what I was saying, but chose to ignore.

What I was saying is that highly ranked classes mean nothing.

what matters is how those recruits have performed.

In this case, you could say Buzz's recruits are far and away better.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 23, 2009, 10:15:31 AM
LOL.  Buzz inherited a great situation.  TC took over a nuclear disaster.  The comparisons are not apt.

I wish them both the best.  I hope Buzz is here 20 years, because it means things are going great.  I hope TC turns around a once proud program that has been stained and tarnished not only on the court, but more importantly in the classroom and off the court.

LOL yourself. Crean left a "great situation" to take over a "nuclear disaster"? Since when is a top 6 national program with TONS of playing time to offer a "nuclear disaster"? Guess rookie coach Josh Pastner didn't get the memo about the "disaster" he inherited at a program with a fraction of Indiana's tradition. All he did was sign the #1 class in the country while TC (in year2/3)inked guys rated around 150 and 250 respectively.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 23, 2009, 10:36:39 AM
LOL yourself. Crean left a "great situation" to take over a "nuclear disaster"? Since when is a top 6 national program with TONS of playing time to offer a "nuclear disaster"? Guess rookie coach Josh Pastner didn't get the memo about the "disaster" he inherited at a program with a fraction of Indiana's tradition. All he did was sign the #1 class in the country while TC (in year2/3)inked guys rated around 150 and 250 respectively.

Pastner had infinitely more talent remaining on his Memphis team that Crean did at Indiana.  It's not even debatable.

Quote from: bma725 on November 23, 2009, 12:29:03 PM
Pastner had infinitely more talent remaining on his Memphis team that Crean did at Indiana.  It's not even debatable.

So he had less playing time to sell at a school so disgraced that they just had to forfeit an entire season and he recruited the #1 class in the country. I never said Crean should have won last year. I suggested that IU should be further along by now - the 2010 class is shaping up to be a weak one for TC in spite of the fact that he STILL has pt to sell at a marquee program. The natives are getting justifyibly restless.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 23, 2009, 12:41:47 PM
So he had less playing time to sell at a school so disgraced that they just had to forfeit an entire season and he recruited the #1 class in the country. I never said Crean should have won last year. I suggested that IU should be further along by now - the 2010 class is shaping up to be a weak one for TC in spite of the fact that he STILL has pt to sell at a marquee program. The natives are getting justifyibly restless.

You're right Pastner is a better recruiter, and so is Calipari.

I'm not sure what that has to do with douche bag TC.

TC is a douche, but he's going to get AT LEAST 4 years to rebuild IU... regardless of Saint Pastner's recruiting.

Now, is 2013, DBTC's seat could be getting hot if he's not bringing in top in-state talent and making tournament runs.

TC. Douche.

TC will run a clean ship, but I doubt it will every match the utterly unreasonable standards that the hillbilly IU alum have for their program.  My guess is that he makes a 5+ year run there, but will not find a terribly pleasant experience unless he gets at least one final 4 tourney run.

I love Buzz so far but can't imagine him not at a B12 or SEC campus within the next 5 years if we attain any reasonable level of success.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 23, 2009, 10:36:39 AM
LOL yourself. Crean left a "great situation" to take over a "nuclear disaster"? Since when is a top 6 national program with TONS of playing time to offer a "nuclear disaster"? Guess rookie coach Josh Pastner didn't get the memo about the "disaster" he inherited at a program with a fraction of Indiana's tradition. All he did was sign the #1 class in the country while TC (in year2/3)inked guys rated around 150 and 250 respectively.

I don't know if I should take you seriously on this, but I'll attempt to.

First, is Memphis and IU the same in terms of who you can recruit to go there?

Second, does Memphis have some major shenanigans going on that helps "encourage" recruits to attend Memphis?

Third, when you're recruiting at Memphis and telling a kid he can come in and play with 4 McDonald's All-Americans, is that an advantage over recruiting a kid to come to IU that had to start from scratch with any warm bodies just to field a team?

Fourth, was IU on probation, thus limiting their recruiting potential?

Fifth, do you think it would be easier to the get to the NCAAs at Memphis in CUSA or at IU in the Big Ten?  Thus, what recruiting pitch do you give a kid at IU?  Basically, come here...help us turn it around but you won't be going to the NCAAs for a few years vs come to Memphis where we get an automatic bid because our conference is so horrible.

I can go on, but Memphis has a ton more CURRENT built in advantages than IU does because of what IU was left with.  That will change over time in some of these areas, but currently Pastner has a much easier job than Crean does because of what he was left with, who he can get into school, how they get players into school, the conference they play in, etc.

When your team is on probation, loses every single player but one, and that player scored a total of 30 points the entire season.....well you're in deep crap.  That will take time to climb out.  They have some talent, but it's young.  Next year they will make the NIT and probably the year after the NCAA, but this year will continue to be struggles.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 23, 2009, 01:04:36 PM
I don't know if I should take you seriously on this, but I'll attempt to.

First, is Memphis and IU the same in terms of who you can recruit to go there?

Second, does Memphis have some major shenanigans going on that helps "encourage" recruits to attend Memphis?

Third, when you're recruiting at Memphis and telling a kid he can come in and play with 4 McDonald's All-Americans, is that an advantage over recruiting a kid to come to IU that had to start from scratch with any warm bodies just to field a team?

Fourth, was IU on probation, thus limiting their recruiting potential?

Fifth, do you think it would be easier to the get to the NCAAs at Memphis in CUSA or at IU in the Big Ten?  Thus, what recruiting pitch do you give a kid at IU?  Basically, come here...help us turn it around but you won't be going to the NCAAs for a few years vs come to Memphis where we get an automatic bid because our conference is so horrible.

I can go on, but Memphis has a ton more CURRENT built in advantages than IU does because of what IU was left with.  That will change over time in some of these areas, but currently Pastner has a much easier job than Crean does because of what he was left with, who he can get into school, how they get players into school, the conference they play in, etc.

When your team is on probation, loses every single player but one, and that player scored a total of 30 points the entire season.....well you're in deep crap.  That will take time to climb out.  They have some talent, but it's young.  Next year they will make the NIT and probably the year after the NCAA, but this year will continue to be struggles.

I won't insult you by saying I don't know whether I should take you seriously, but I will reply nontheless.
1. I don't know about all of the Memphis recruits, but Crean was hot on the trail of Kirkland and MU was after Black. If their other guys qualify it means they're academically superior to the guy who's most responsible for TC's career. Do you really think IU won't admit top 20 kids who are NCAA academically qualified? Please.
2. Maybe Memphis is  buying players (as you suggest) and maybe they're not. If you have the knowledge of this I suggest perhaps you should share it with the powers that be.
3.When TC was at MU I was constantly reminded that a coach at a school named anything but Carolina needed playing time to entice top recruits. This explained why 2/3 of TC's classes were so weak. Guess it was Carolina OR Memphis.
4.The probation was little more than a tap on the wrist. Do you think Memphis' standing was undiminished when they forfeited an entire season?
5.So now being in Conference USA is a recruiting advantage? I remember way back when it was a millstone around our neck. I guess it's whatever puts TC in the most favorable light.

I could go on. But I'll finish with a question. Why was TC again unable to put back-to-back recruiting classes together. No pt to sell? No. Regional, small Catholic school? No. TC is in the big leagues now, no longer shackled with the problem inherent with coaching at MU. Yet he whiffs in year 2 while Buzz hits a home run. How is that possible?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 23, 2009, 01:04:36 PM
Second, does Memphis have some major shenanigans going on that helps "encourage" recruits to attend Memphis?

I would like to give Pastner the benefit of the doubt, and say no.  I have never heard any of these types of whispers associated with him.  

I just hope Buzz realizes that his job at MU is not a stepping stone to "greener pastures". He already has a great gig and despite all the naysayers who thought we could have done better in hiring a new coach he decides to stay and say this is where I belong. Even Al, a New Yorker, through and through, decided to spend the rest of his life in the Milwaukee area after he retired. And for the record I live in New Jersey in the Princeton area, but living in Wisconsin in the Milwaukee area would be great place to raise a family.

Quote from: muwarrior69 on November 23, 2009, 02:37:09 PM
I just hope Buzz realizes that his job at MU is not a stepping stone to "greener pastures".

And I hope that Buzz doesn't realize that his job at MU is a stepping stone to greener pastures.

In short, we're hoping the same thing -- that Buzz succeeds and stays put.

Quote from: MU_B2002 on November 23, 2009, 02:12:43 PM
I would like to give Pastner the benefit of the doubt, and say no.  I have never heard any of these types of whispers associated with him.  

It's part of the Memphis culture.  John Wooden wasn't cheating either, but Sam Gilbert, influential alum, was doing so behind Wooden's back.  The coach doesn't have to know what's going on.

Is Memphis banned from post season play?  No.  Thus, it's a slap on the wrist.  Current players won't give a damn if they can still participate in the tournament.  Sure alums don't like it, but having a season wiped out in the past isn't going to hurt their recruiting.

I didn't say CUSA is a recruiting advantage....having a virtual lock to the NCAA tournament, is.  Gonzaga, Memphis, they have a lock to the NCAA tournament each year because of the conferences they play in.  That helps them in recruiting.  Why do you think Boise State can recruit like they do for football...because they have a lock to a bowl game.

I didn't say Memphis was paying players.  I said their are shenanigans going on and they have been for more than 3 decades at Memphis.  Larry, Dana, John, etc....it's been going on forever.  Nothing I've said is out of the blue, it's based on what they have done for years.  Hell, Kirk ended up in prison for Christ sake.

Kirkland and Black would have been admitted to MU or IU.  Would Derrick Rose?    And no, IU doesn't just admit anyone.  That has been one of their problems the last two decades, they haven't been willing to take some of the shortcuts others have.  That's probably going to change, but they aren't going to let in some kids that go to Memphis.

Playing time is always a key to selling a recruit, to deny that is crazy.  I don't think you are denying it, but you are implying it's not as important as it is.  But to suggest playing time availability is the only thing is disingenious.  Guess what, North Florida probably had a lot of playing time, too.  Doesn't mean a kid is going to go there.  IU knows that for the first 3 years of TC's tenure they aren't going to the NCAA tournament, thus a lot of kids aren't going to sign up for that deal.  Playing time or not, they want to go to the NCAAs.  That program was decimated and the rebuilding much longer than most programs.

I really can't believe you are making the argument about his recruiting right now considering what he has to deal with.  If he starts cranking out top 15 classes year after year once they turn it around, then what....I suppose then that absolutely solidifies his reason for leaving, right?  Time will tell on all fronts....for Buzz...for TC...etc.  Wishing them both the best.