OK so im not gonna claim to know any inside information with regards to anyone being in the doghouse or whatever, but one of my biggest pet peeves about Buzz it that he doesnt give certain guys enough PT in games when he should. I already understand what people are gonna say, and what Buzz says- that he plays the guys that have a good week in practice and earn the PT come gametime....HOWEVER, everyone is gonna have a bad week in practice here and there, and that bad week is gonna cause that kid to feel terrible as is, why make him feel worse by giving him such limited time??
He did this last year as well, and at the time I said coaching in that manner will make kids discouraged and would hurt recruiting down the line, but I assumed that the injuries were a legit excuse. I know its only 2 games, but against that team there is no way Otule, williams, and fulce for example should play less that 10 mins (unless there are laziness or team conduct issues, and there is no way all 3 are in this boat)... there is also no reason to have butler and lazar in until 3 mins left
Just my opinion, but the gametime experience and the increased self-esteem far outweight a coach proving a point. These kids work their butts off for buzz and for the team, dont you think they are wondering why they arent even good enough for some garbage time? The interview comments is one thing, but atleast give the kids some time to help with their progress and confidence. Something tells me that the 3 amigos had bad weeks in practice last year, and i didnt see their time get severely reduced.
PS: Im not advocating the everyone plays equal minutes stuff, cause the best guys should play the most, esp in close games. All Im saying is that I think it benefits the team as a whole to give more guys PT in these situations, for multiple reasons, one of them being to protect your stars
PSS: As a recently waived brilliant individual once said, man we talkin about practice!
Quote from: mudimitri on November 17, 2009, 10:01:07 PM
OK so im not gonna claim to know any inside information with regards to anyone being in the doghouse or whatever, but one of my biggest pet peeves about Buzz it that he doesnt give certain guys enough PT in games when he should. I already understand what people are gonna say, and what Buzz says- that he plays the guys that have a good week in practice and earn the PT come gametime....HOWEVER, everyone is gonna have a bad week in practice here and there, and that bad week is gonna cause that kid to feel terrible as is, why make him feel worse by giving him such limited time??
He did this last year as well, and at the time I said coaching in that manner will make kids discouraged and would hurt recruiting down the line, but I assumed that the injuries were a legit excuse. I know its only 2 games, but against that team there is no way Otule, williams, and fulce for example should play less that 10 mins (unless there are laziness or team conduct issues, and there is no way all 3 are in this boat)... there is also no reason to have butler and lazar in until 3 mins left
Just my opinion, but the gametime experience and the increased self-esteem far outweight a coach proving a point. These kids work their butts off for buzz and for the team, dont you think they are wondering why they arent even good enough for some garbage time? The interview comments is one thing, but atleast give the kids some time to help with their progress and confidence. Something tells me that the 3 amigos had bad weeks in practice last year, and i didnt see their time get severely reduced.
PS: Im not advocating the everyone plays equal minutes stuff, cause the best guys should play the most, esp in close games. All Im saying is that I think it benefits the team as a whole to give more guys PT in these situations, for multiple reasons, one of them being to protect your stars
PSS: As a recently waived brilliant individual once said, man we talkin about practice!
That's the problem right there. Who says that E. Williams is working his butt off in practice? I have no choice but to assume he is doing nothing in practice to warrant playing in the game.
Perhaps, and if that is the case I can understand it. I do find it pretty hard to believe he is doing 'nothing' but if he is slacking off then fine.
What about Otule though? I know buzz said something last week about him having 'the worst practice hes ever had' but I honestly dont think that warrants giving a kid 11 mins, half in garbage time, esp when u are up by 20 most of the 2nd half and should be giving him experience and making sure lazar doesnt get hurt
I really thought the big 3 got too much PT in the cupcake part of last season, and in my opinion that hurt the team towards the end of the season when injuries popped up
Quote from: mudimitri on November 17, 2009, 10:30:48 PM
What about Otule though? I know buzz said something last week about him having 'the worst practice hes ever had' but I honestly dont think that warrants giving a kid 11 mins, half in garbage time, esp when u are up by 20 most of the 2nd half and should be giving him experience and making sure lazar doesnt get hurt
The problem is there was no one out there for Otule to match up with. MES played their 7 footer for 1 minute, and for much of the game was going with a 4 guard 1 small forward line up. That's a situation where Otule can't work on anything that he needs to develop his game. He can't work on post defense, because the other team will put the guy on the perimeter and have him go right by Otule. He can't work on post offense, because he'll be posting up a small forward, a situation he'll never have again as the season goes on.
Quote from: bma725 on November 17, 2009, 10:38:24 PM
The problem is there was no one out there for Otule to match up with. MES played their 7 footer for 1 minute, and for much of the game was going with a 4 guard 1 small forward line up. That's a situation where Otule can't work on anything that he needs to develop his game. He can't work on post defense, because the other team will put the guy on the perimeter and have him go right by Otule. He can't work on post offense, because he'll be posting up a small forward, a situation he'll never have again as the season goes on.
100% correct. Unfortunately, Otule will have to get his minutes against tougher competition... As they have guys who as Buzz says "look like Chris".
Quote from: bma725 on November 17, 2009, 10:38:24 PM
The problem is there was no one out there for Otule to match up with. MES played their 7 footer for 1 minute, and for much of the game was going with a 4 guard 1 small forward line up. That's a situation where Otule can't work on anything that he needs to develop his game. He can't work on post defense, because the other team will put the guy on the perimeter and have him go right by Otule. He can't work on post offense, because he'll be posting up a small forward, a situation he'll never have again as the season goes on.
I realized that also, but I dont think he loses anything by posting up a smaller guy and getting some reps in down low- if nothing else he gains some confidence like he prob did in the last 3 minutes with a couple of nice buckets and a few nice blocks. Also, he gets more familiar with his teammates in a REAL game situation, not PRACTICE
Also, what does Zar gain by playing 31 minutes, jacking up 20 shots, and scoring a career high in a game like this? Well ok he gets to pad his stats and some notoriety, but I just feel that otule, williams, fulce would gain a bit more outta some extra PT against the fellas of "Bo's, O's, and Ho's, thats what Maryland does" land
I would have to agree slightly with mudimitri. As I was watching the game I kept looking at Erik Williams and wondering when is name would be called to come in. However, that never happened but Rob Frozena was able to get into game. That has to shatter your confidence for a guy who was a top 100 recruit coming into Marquette and stuck with us when we lost our coach but you get less playing time than the walk-on who honestly does nothing on the court except being the fan favorite. Sure Williams may be skinny and not as muscular as say Maymon but he is a good player and should be out there getting some playing time. We will need him more down the road and into next year than Rob Frozena who will rid the pine the rest of the year after the cupcakes.
Quote from: sellit07 on November 18, 2009, 08:26:02 AM
I would have to agree slightly with mudimitri. As I was watching the game I kept looking at Erik Williams and wondering when is name would be called to come in. However, that never happened but Rob Frozena was able to get into game. That has to shatter your confidence for a guy who was a top 100 recruit coming into Marquette and stuck with us when we lost our coach but you get less playing time than the walk-on who honestly does nothing on the court except being the fan favorite. Sure Williams may be skinny and not as muscular as say Maymon but he is a good player and should be out there getting some playing time. We will need him more down the road and into next year than Rob Frozena who will rid the pine the rest of the year after the cupcakes.
Buzz has always said that you EARN your playing time.
figure the rest out yourself.
Quote from: sellit07 on November 18, 2009, 08:26:02 AM
I would have to agree slightly with mudimitri. As I was watching the game I kept looking at Erik Williams and wondering when is name would be called to come in. However, that never happened but Rob Frozena was able to get into game. That has to shatter your confidence for a guy who was a top 100 recruit coming into Marquette and stuck with us when we lost our coach but you get less playing time than the walk-on who honestly does nothing on the court except being the fan favorite. Sure Williams may be skinny and not as muscular as say Maymon but he is a good player and should be out there getting some playing time. We will need him more down the road and into next year than Rob Frozena who will rid the pine the rest of the year after the cupcakes.
It's not about shattering confidence its about instilling work ethic and professionalism. To take it to an extreme...Brandon Jennings was at times given limited minutes in Italy and he fought through that and made it work. What lesson is being taught to Eric Williams if he continues to play in games despite not practicing like the coaches want?
Quote from: The Lens on November 18, 2009, 08:48:23 AM
It's not about shattering confidence its about instilling work ethic and professionalism. To take it to an extreme...Brandon Jennings was at times given limited minutes in Italy and he fought through that and made it work. What lesson is being taught to Eric Williams if he continues to play in games despite not practicing like the coaches want?
I agree that this isn't likely to shatter EWill's confidence. EWill knows that he's a good player -- much, much better than Frozena. I suspect that he knows that the reason he's not playing has less to do with talent than effort. It might piss him off and it might embarass him, but I doubt it will shatter his confidence. I just hope that it works and EWill will do what he needs to do to get out on the floor.
There is no point to leaving in Hayward and Butler with under four minutes to go and up by 26 points. I would consider it a challenge more than I would an early Christmas present to put EWill, Otule, or Fulce into a blowout with under four minutes to go and ask them to prove something while playing as if the game isn't a joke at that point and as if they are playing a real team.
Quote from: chapman on November 18, 2009, 09:20:23 AM
There is no point to leaving in Hayward and Butler with under four minutes to go and up by 26 points. I would consider it a challenge more than I would an early Christmas present to put EWill, Otule, or Fulce into a blowout with under four minutes to go and ask them to prove something while playing as if the game isn't a joke at that point and as if they are playing a real team.
Exactly. If Butler or Hayward had gotten hurt in the last 5 minutes I'd expect that this thread would have a very different tone.
Guys...it's fairly well documented that E Williams and Buzz Williams are close. Has it occurred to you that they're taking their time determining whether a red-shirt might be in his best interest? Too much playing time might affect that possibility.
Unless he gets injured, redshirting is no longer an option.
With the new development regarding Fulce's knee injury, NO WAY EWill should redshirt; you cannot have enough 6'6"-6'7" athletes in this conference. My guess is that Buzz sent him a message to practice better, and if Fulce is out for any length of time, I'd expect Maymon and EWill's minutes will go up.
Quote from: mudimitri on November 17, 2009, 10:01:07 PM
Just my opinion, but the gametime experience and the increased self-esteem far outweight a coach proving a point.
C'mon...these are college students not middle schoolers. If Buzz is a good coach, and I think he is, he is communicating constantly with each player about their roles and what they need to do to play more.
I mean seriously..."self-esteem???"
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on November 18, 2009, 10:25:16 AM
C'mon...these are college students not middle schoolers. If Buzz is a good coach, and I think he is, he is communicating constantly with each player about their roles and what they need to do to play more.
I mean seriously..."self-esteem???"
i guess you might be right... self-esteem? we talkin about self-esteem?
honestly though, i believe the 'you only play 4-5 minutes cause youve been a lazy ass horrible practicer this week and its only because i dont want the guys who deserve to play getting hurt' gives the kid the same message, and allows the coach to learn more about his player, and the player about himself
Yeah, mudimitri is right! 10 weeks from now otule is going to get the ball in the post while being guarded by a 6'10 big east center on a critical posesion. And he's not going to score, all because he didn't get a chance to practice his post moves against a 6'4 guy from Maryland E. Shore. After that Williams will wiff on the rebound that he doesn't have the confidence to jump for. Then fulce will fall on his face running back on defence. Damn you buzz if only they would have had 3 more minutes of PT each back in November!
Quote from: RawdogDX on November 19, 2009, 02:59:23 PM
Yeah, mudimitri is right! 10 weeks from now otule is going to get the ball in the post while being guarded by a 6'10 big east center on a critical posesion. And he's not going to score, all because he didn't get a chance to practice his post moves against a 6'4 guy from Maryland E. Shore. After that Williams will wiff on the rebound that he doesn't have the confidence to jump for. Then fulce will fall on his face running back on defence. Damn you buzz if only they would have had 3 more minutes of PT each back in November!
This...
was awesome.
Quote from: RawdogDX on November 19, 2009, 02:59:23 PM
Yeah, mudimitri is right! 10 weeks from now otule is going to get the ball in the post while being guarded by a 6'10 big east center on a critical posesion. And he's not going to score, all because he didn't get a chance to practice his post moves against a 6'4 guy from Maryland E. Shore. After that Williams will wiff on the rebound that he doesn't have the confidence to jump for. Then fulce will fall on his face running back on defence. Damn you buzz if only they would have had 3 more minutes of PT each back in November!
and you my friend, are officially an idiot
yes it does make a difference, because they are getting experience at the college level. what the hell does it matter if lazar or butler play 5 extra minutes? had either one gotten hurt you would prob be so pissed you'd wanna rawdog buzz
Quote from: RawdogDX on November 19, 2009, 02:59:23 PM
Yeah, mudimitri is right! 10 weeks from now otule is going to get the ball in the post while being guarded by a 6'10 big east center on a critical posesion. And he's not going to score, all because he didn't get a chance to practice his post moves against a 6'4 guy from Maryland E. Shore. After that Williams will wiff on the rebound that he doesn't have the confidence to jump for. Then fulce will fall on his face running back on defence. Damn you buzz if only they would have had 3 more minutes of PT each back in November!
Reading this comment I am reminded of Dennis Miller on MNF. Taking a funny and good dig with reference to the topic of a sport but making no practical sense. Clearly if you get game experience on a collegiate level (not practice), with your teammates, this will build confidence and thus success. It's like Acker finally taking a three and realizing that he has a stroke to his shot and it will go in but only after he throws it up. So yeah the comment was right it is foolish to put in an inexperience player against a less formidable team - such as the last two teams. Nothing is to be gained from this. Thanks Denny.
Quote from: mudimitri on November 19, 2009, 10:01:14 PM
and you my friend, are officially an idiot
yes it does make a difference, because they are getting experience at the college level. what the hell does it matter if lazar or butler play 5 extra minutes? had either one gotten hurt you would prob be so pissed you'd wanna rawdog buzz
really impressive name calling. You sure proved me wrong.
Baltimore - I don't know if you were tyring to be ironic by making fun of a post you had trouble understanding by rambling incoherently, but if you were, bravo. 3-5 minutes in this game will have no effect on the season. Sorry if i tried to say that in a way that would appeal to people with a high reading comp level and a sense of humor.
Quote from: RawdogDX on November 20, 2009, 03:20:03 AM
really impressive name calling. You sure proved me wrong.
Baltimore - I don't know if you were tyring to be ironic by making fun of a post you had trouble understanding by rambling incoherently, but if you were, bravo. 3-5 minutes in this game will have no effect on the season. Sorry if i tried to say that in a way that would appeal to people with a high reading comp level and a sense of humor.
Rawdog is right. You don't get better from 3-5 garbage minutes against a cupcake opponent. You do get better from putting in time every day in the gym, and practicing your ass off.
Playing time against cupcakes is the reward for practicing hard.
Buzz's recruiting method invites PT problems. Next year will be even worse as he will have more players of roughly the same ability and all will be deserving of PT-----but there are only 200 mpg and divided by a rotation of 13 that leaves about 15 mpg for each. There will be some unhappy campers
On the otherhand Al McGuire recruited for a rotation of just 8 which left 25 mpg for each (the other 5 were on his development/practice squad). PT availability was the key to Al's being able to recruit the quality he did.
Quote from: Murffieus on November 20, 2009, 01:40:34 PM
Buzz's recruiting method invites PT problems. Next year will be even worse as he will have more players of roughly the same ability and all will be deserving of PT-----but there are only 200 mpg and divided by a rotation of 13 that leaves about 15 mpg for each. There will be some unhappy campers
On the otherhand Al McGuire recruited for a rotation of just 8 which left 25 mpg for each (the other 5 were on his development/practice squad). PT availability was the key to Al's being able to recruit the quality he did.
Given all we've seen with injuries, transfers etc...., there's no way I'm going to worry about having too much talent on our roster. We'll just see how it plays out. Might we lose someone to a transfer here and there if the roster is loaded, I suppose so. I'd rather take my chances on that though then intentionally thinning the talent level. I'd say bring in as much talent as you can, and the cream will rise to the top and dictate how the minutes get allocated.
Quote from: StillWarriors on November 20, 2009, 01:59:38 PM
Given all we've seen with injuries, transfers etc...., there's no way I'm going to worry about having too much talent on our roster. We'll just see how it plays out. Might we lose someone to a transfer here and there if the roster is loaded, I suppose so. I'd rather take my chances on that though then intentionally thinning the talent level. I'd say bring in as much talent as you can, and the cream will rise to the top and dictate how the minutes get allocated.
Agreed. We've had major injuries each of the last few seasons. That could mean a rotation cut down to 10-11 players. Finding 15-25 minutes for each, depending on how they're developing and practicing, and it's a lot more important to get the talent in case of these injuries. I doubt many people thought Cubillan would log major minutes at the point this year before Cadougan got hurt.
Quote from: muwarrior87 on November 20, 2009, 04:40:09 PM
Agreed. We've had major injuries each of the last few seasons. That could mean a rotation cut down to 10-11 players. Finding 15-25 minutes for each, depending on how they're developing and practicing, and it's a lot more important to get the talent in case of these injuries. I doubt many people thought Cubillan would log major minutes at the point this year before Cadougan got hurt.
when you are a program like marquette, you always take elite talent if you can get it even at a similar position, IMO. from that point on it is the coachs job, and not an easy one, to keep his team balanced and his players happy, and to decide who deserves to play the most and who the least.
that said, i personally dont think frozena deserves to play more than williams. again i know buzz is trying to prove a point, i just dont think embarassing a kid is the way to do it. EWill was the only kid that stuck with Buzz post miami beach's exit, hes been committed to buzz and the program for 3 yrs now, and by all accounts seems like a nice kid. I think you have to show the kid some appreciation and respect even if hes coming along slowly, assuming he has not been disrespectful to you
for the future, i think one of buzz's biggest challenges will be his distribution of minutes and i think he needs to work on that if he wants to continue his recruiting success. dont get me wrong, to this point is seems that all of his players love him as a guy and love playing for him, but if hes got 10 guys that are top 100 type talents and he gets stuck in a rotation of 6-7 players and the others get 5-10 mins a game, future recruits may look at that and think twice...
also, saying we need to put guys on the court that can help us win in january and in orlando is fairly unnecessary, especially when frozena steps on the court
ps- is anyone else annoyed by the borderline obsession big robert gets? people are gonna rip me as heartless, but dont get me wrong i like the guy too and love when he gets to play cause he works his behind off, but its a little over the top and prob makes the kid more nervous than a guy trying to win a game at the freethrow line
I agree, players like Otule and E.Williams should get more PT in garbage time if nothing else just for experience so they have something to reflect on when the BE season starts. I can understand people saying that putting Otule out there when the other team doesn't have a 7footer for him to guard is a bad match up for him defensively but the flipside is he should be able to get some easy buckets working on the offensive side when MU has the ball. Maybe some work in game time situations albeit against smaller defenders will give him some confidence and should definitely give him time to develop his post game. If the bigs don't get PT they will always be big stiffs and you'll never know if they could be any good.