On the way home from the game, listening to Homer's interview with Buzz. Homer was gushing about Butler's play and stat line to Buzz. (Butler was pretty terrific last night on the boards, driving, defense.) Buzz's first remark was something like, "you know Homer, Jimmy is a good player, he's not a great player..." I'm like, shut up and give the guy some credit for a solid effort last night. Buzz seems to do this often, going overboard to describe something more negatively. I remember first hearing this last year in an interview when Buzz said Cubillan "knows he will never be a great player." I'm sure he does, but that doesn't mean you need to talk about it in an interview. Save it for practice. I recall more than a few times when a player doesn't play or practice well, it's "player x was flat-out awful" instead of "player x was off a little tonight." I'm all for being honest with your players, but it really doesn't seem necessary when you're talking to the media about these kids. I understand the effort last night was against Centenary and you don't want to make too much of it, but I've heard Buzz do this on numerous occasions. Again, it just seems totally unnecessary. I'm sure some will call this refreshing, but it is starting to annoy me.
Quote from: Freeport Warrior on November 14, 2009, 09:41:57 AM
On the way home from the game, listening to Homer's interview with Buzz. Homer was gushing about Butler's play and stat line to Buzz. (Butler was pretty terrific last night on the boards, driving, defense.) Buzz's first remark was something like, "you know Homer, Jimmy is a good player, he's not a great player..." I'm like, shut up and give the guy some credit for a solid effort last night. Buzz seems to do this often, going overboard to describe something more negatively. I remember first hearing this last year in an interview when Buzz said Cubillan "knows he will never be a great player." I'm sure he does, but that doesn't mean you need to talk about it in an interview. Save it for practice. I recall more than a few times when a player doesn't play or practice well, it's "player x was flat-out awful" instead of "player x was off a little tonight." I'm all for being honest with your players, but it really doesn't seem necessary when you're talking to the media about these kids. I understand the effort last night was against Centenary and you don't want to make too much of it, but I've heard Buzz do this on numerous occasions. Again, it just seems totally unnecessary. I'm sure some will call this refreshing, but it is starting to annoy me.
Actually, he said Jimmy was a REALLY good player - an accurate AND complimentary assessment. If you prefer gushing hyperbole, coach-speak and general bs I'm sure someone has archived TC's pressers.
Not asking for gushing hyperbole but it is ridiculous. I suppose you would like it if you manager held a meeting with the investors/board or potential customers and said how Mr. Freeport had a nice month but we all know he's an average employee who will never be great. Its complete bullsh*t and I'm tired of it to, mostly because Butler could be great....may not be the most talented but he makes up for it.
Say what you want to the player in closed quarters but he doesn't need to announce it to the press, there is a reason 99.9% of the coaches don't do it.
So what is better, to be consistent in what one says, or to have two versions, both of which the players can hear. Seems like it would be phony if that was the case. Better to be consistent in what one says.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on November 14, 2009, 10:36:46 AM
Not asking for gushing hyperbole but it is ridiculous. I suppose you would like it if you manager held a meeting with the investors/board or potential customers and said how Mr. Freeport had a nice month but we all know he's an average employee who will never be great. Its complete bullsh*t and I'm tired of it to, mostly because Butler could be great....may not be the most talented but he makes up for it.
Say what you want to the player in closed quarters but he doesn't need to announce it to the press, there is a reason 99.9% of the coaches don't do it.
You will notice that generally Buzz states a players negative(s), and then follows it up with their positives or a positive statement. We are already in a too touchey-feely world. This is sports. Toughness is required, and if our players feelings are hurt through Buzz making a negative statement about them in the press - they probably aren't the type of player Buzz wants in the program. History shows many coaches who have been thought to be candid, disciplinarians, etc to be successful. Buzz obviously has love for all of his players, and has a huge heart - these guys know that. But, he also is going to challenge them to be their best, and don't think for a minute part of this isn't calculated.
I think it's best to have those conversations man-to-man, not taking the kid down a notch in a public forum. For whose benefit? Ours? As a fan, I don't need that kind of "transparency." I remember thinking a bunch of MU kids probably heard Buzz take Cooby down a notch last year. Next day, those kids see him in class and saying something like, "dude, that blows coach said you suck on the radio and you'll never be any good." I'm sure it does wonders for your confidence. Again, is this for "our" benefit? Maybe it's great motivation, but I don't get it. Unnecessary, that's all I'm saying.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on November 14, 2009, 10:36:46 AM
Not asking for gushing hyperbole but it is ridiculous. I suppose you would like it if you manager held a meeting with the investors/board or potential customers and said how Mr. Freeport had a nice month but we all know he's an average employee who will never be great. Its complete bullsh*t and I'm tired of it to, mostly because Butler could be great....may not be the most talented but he makes up for it.
So you're equating "he's a really good player" with "an average employee who will never be great?"
Hmmm, speaking of hyperbole ....
And I'm pretty sure 99.9 percent of all coaches don't blow smoke up their players' behinds at every opportunity, much less after the first game of the season.
Anyhow, maybe I'm the exception, but I prefer a little honesty. If Buzz came out last night and declared Jimmy Butler a "great player" every thinking fan here would know it's not true.
Jimmy Butler is a good player. Maybe even a really good player.
Jimmy Butler is not a great player.
I dunno.. doesn't bug me.. one thing it says though is that when he says he thinks someone is great, he means it. He doesn't give that out much so it gives the players something to aim for.
If you constantly give your employees annual ratings of 8-10 on a 10 point scale then when they truly excel what do you have to give them?
Nah.. doesn't bug me at all. "Really good player" is relatively high compliment from Buzz. Take it for what it is but don't grow your ego too big as he also thinks you have room to improve. Don't like what he said? Prove him wrong the next chance you have. If you do, he'll be honest about it then too.
I think it's a service to Jimmy that he's getting timely, direct, honest, & CONSISTENT feedback from Buzz. Too often, managers or coaches are afraid to provide honest & constructive feedback and the employee or player goes on thinking they're doing a good job. I'm sure Buzz is being consistent in his messaging to the players and that the comments he made are something Jimmy has heard before. Does it matter that it's to the media? I don't think so, if the player has thin skin, he should look to play at a lower profile program.
I appreciate Buzz's candor and am sick of coaches who are always blowing smoke up players a$$e$. The only way these players will reach their goal of a professional basketball career is by someone riding them hard and pushing them to be the best they can be. If I had a son, I would love for him to play for someone like Buzz who demands excellence and won't accept anything less.
He hasn't lied yet. He sometimes underseells because he is watching like a coach and not like a fan. I am sure he saw JB do 10 things wrong. He praises JB's work ethic and says he has a still higher ceiling. What is the problem? He praises Otule, but says he hasn't had a decent matchup yet. Sorry, but 99% of the time honesty is the best policy. The 1% usually has to do with relationships and whether a pair of pants makes your significant other's butt look big.
When I coached I had a sign in the locker room that read. Good isn't good enough. Great is.
Good athletes have smoke blown up their ass from middle school on. And all of Marquette's athletes are good. When they were in middle school, they were great....by comparison.
Too many athletes fail to recognize the efforts it takes to play well at this higher level of competition. So when a college coach says they need more effort, many recall they weren't really challenged in the past. They succeeded then so why not now?
My take on Buzz's honesty is that he is merely reminding the players of the need for constant effort to be better. These guys know Buzz better than any of us will ever know him. I have yet to see any negative reaction to his way of prodding everyone on the team. If any one player is too sensitive to public criticism while accepting public acclaim, he would be a terrible fit for a powerhouse BE program. Our athletes can take it because they are tough enough.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on November 14, 2009, 10:36:46 AM
Not asking for gushing hyperbole but it is ridiculous. I suppose you would like it if you manager held a meeting with the investors/board or potential customers and said how Mr. Freeport had a nice month but we all know he's an average employee who will never be great. Its complete bullsh*t and I'm tired of it to, mostly because Butler could be great....may not be the most talented but he makes up for it.
Say what you want to the player in closed quarters but he doesn't need to announce it to the press, there is a reason 99.9% of the coaches don't do it.
Buzz didn't say JB was an "average" player. He said he was a "REALLY GOOD" player. I find it humourous when non athletes take such offense on behalf of players who know the score and are totally ok with it. There is a reason why Buzz has a better relationship with his players than 99.9% of those 99.9% of coaches you reference. He's open, honest and caring and his players know it. That's more than good enough for me.
Quote from: Ners on November 14, 2009, 10:56:52 AM
You will notice that generally Buzz states a players negative(s), and then follows it up with their positives or a positive statement. We are already in a too touchey-feely world. This is sports. Toughness is required, and if our players feelings are hurt through Buzz making a negative statement about them in the press - they probably aren't the type of player Buzz wants in the program. History shows many coaches who have been thought to be candid, disciplinarians, etc to be successful. Buzz obviously has love for all of his players, and has a huge heart - these guys know that. But, he also is going to challenge them to be their best, and don't think for a minute part of this isn't calculated.
Great 1st post, +1
Buzz's first remark was something like, "you know Homer, Jimmy is a good player, he's not a great player..." I'm like, shut up and give the guy some credit for a solid effort last night.
Isn't saying "Jimmy is a good player" giving him credit?
If your coach isn't going to blow your horn "WHO IS" ?
Honesty is for the locker room when it comes to critiques of players
HELL NO!
Candor always wins the day. Go Buzz! Keep telling it like it is. Good and bad.
enjoyed watching the kids play last night. it's going to be a fun season.
Players have fans and girls to tell them how wonderful they are, it's Buzz job to make sure they know good isn't good enough as DaCoach says. I like Buzz's approach.
Each and every one of you have made some great, great posts. You are doing a wonderful job. Keep up the good work. Everyone is so proud of you.
Quote from: Freeport Warrior on November 14, 2009, 11:03:52 AM
I think it's best to have those conversations man-to-man, not taking the kid down a notch in a public forum. For whose benefit? Ours? As a fan, I don't need that kind of "transparency." I remember thinking a bunch of MU kids probably heard Buzz take Cooby down a notch last year. Next day, those kids see him in class and saying something like, "dude, that blows coach said you suck on the radio and you'll never be any good." I'm sure it does wonders for your confidence. Again, is this for "our" benefit? Maybe it's great motivation, but I don't get it. Unnecessary, that's all I'm saying.
Then why even speak at all? If all he is going to say is a bunch of coach-speak and platitudes, I'd rather not even hear it.
I like the Buzz post game interviews. Yes Jimmy had a double double, but it was against Centenary....
If Jimmy does this against a 'Nova...I believe Buzz will have a little more hype for Jimmy
Keep in mind, ALL of this is what Buzz says outside of the locker room. I don't know, but I would assume he is telling his players all of this long before the media. If the players did perceive him as publicly berating them, I wouldn't think they'd be as enthusiastic to play for him.
There's a lot more to his relationship with the players than gets publicly stated.
There was a thread recently where someone on this board refered to butler as 'not a stud' and was yelled at by several posters for 'ripping' him. Thought lenny's tap was one of those people. Not going to bother to look it up so i could be wrong.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on November 14, 2009, 10:36:46 AM
Its complete bullsh*t and I'm tired of it to, mostly because Butler could be great....may not be the most talented but he makes up for it.
Say what you want to the player in closed quarters but he doesn't need to announce it to the press, there is a reason 99.9% of the coaches don't do it.
My radio was breaking up on the way home, but I thought Buzz said Jimmy was a good player, and something about being at MU for three years could make him a great player. So Jimmy has an extremely honest coach saying he could go from good to great. If Jimmy feels Buzz truly knows what a great player is, and he feels Jimmy could be one, I would think Jimmy would do everything he could to become a great player. When Buzz calls him a great player, then he knows he truly is one.
I understand people's complaints, but this is calculated on Buzz's part, and I think he has the right to motivate and handle his players as he feels best as long as their is a plan to the process. I don't see him pulling a Bobby Knight and acting outside of anger. My guess is the players hear people say he should be "nicer" when speaking to the media and they laugh because they know no one cares or helps their game more than Buzz. If it upsets kids, we should see multiple transfers and a drop in recruiting.
Give me a break...Buzz Williams' post game shows are the best we've had in 10 years. He's actually engaging and is conversational with Homer.
Oh heaven forbid someone's feelings get hurt. We live in such a soft politically correct world these days. If the players have a problem with it, they will transfer out and the really good players won't even think about coming here. I think Jimmy, Lazar and the rest of the MU players are man enough where if they don't like what Buzz says about them, they can take matters into their own hands. Fact of the matter is, it is a common knowledge that Buzz's favorite saying to all of his players is "Hoooowwwww duuuummmmb arrrrrrrrrrrre youuuuuuuuu!!!!!!!" And yet, somehow, someway, they love him as a coach. Go figure. If you don't like it, don't listen to him. Most used to tune out our old coach because they couldn't stand him talk either.
mufanatic you hit the nail on the head. Our society is too soft.
Trophies for everyone on the team!
great job everyone, you were fantastic today!
Let's not keep score because the losing team will feel bad.
This is how sports begins at the youth level all the way up so that "great" is so watered down, it means nothing. How about if we make athletes "earn" recognition and not hand out rewards and accolades so they don't feel bad?
Buzz is old school in that respect and I love it.
"Chris [Otule] probably had the worst practice he's ever had since he knew basketball was a game on Monday."
--Buzz at the Centenary preview press conference ;D
"Freeport Warrior is an unbelieveable, phenomenal, great, super message board poster. He reminds me a lot of Dywane and Steve and Travis. It's like Tony La Russa, Barry Alvarez, Mike Maddux and Mike McCarthy used to tell me, if you have a great and outstanding poster like Freeport Warrior, you do it."
"PS I married a Harbaugh"
- Extracted from a a recent Tom Crean Press Conference
Quote from: The Lens on November 14, 2009, 05:07:34 PM
"Freeport Warrior is an unbelieveable, phenomenal, great, super message board poster. He reminds me a lot of Dywane and Steve and Travis. It's like Tony La Russa, Barry Alvarez, Mike Maddux and Mike McCarthy used to tell me, if you have a great and outstanding poster like Freeport Warrior, you do it."
"PS I married a Harbaugh"
- Extracted from a a recent Tom Crean Press Conference
Hilarious though sad in that it is pretty spot on capturing the essence of II,II
Quote from: The Lens on November 14, 2009, 05:07:34 PM
"Freeport Warrior is an unbelieveable, phenomenal, great, super message board poster. He reminds me a lot of Dywane and Steve and Travis. It's like Tony La Russa, Barry Alvarez, Mike Maddux and Mike McCarthy used to tell me, if you have a great and outstanding poster like Freeport Warrior, you do it."
"PS I married a Harbaugh"
- Extracted from a a recent Tom Crean Press Conference
Post of the day/month/year. Hilarious. And dead on accurate.
Quote from: The Lens on November 14, 2009, 05:07:34 PM
"Freeport Warrior is an unbelieveable, phenomenal, great, super message board poster. He reminds me a lot of Dywane and Steve and Travis. It's like Tony La Russa, Barry Alvarez, Mike Maddux and Mike McCarthy used to tell me, if you have a great and outstanding poster like Freeport Warrior, you do it."
"PS I married a Harbaugh"
- Extracted from a a recent Tom Crean Press Conference
Thanks for the kind words.
Just got back from my kid's game and he cobbled together a nice little double-double. Some guy came up to me and my son after the game and said "he's gonna be a helluva player." I said (in front of him), "he did a good job, but he's never going to be a great player," then I kicked him in ass and told him to make me a turkey pot pie. Man, the honesty felt great. I don't want him to grow up to be soft, or get a big head. He's got girls and buddies to do that.
Quote from: Freeport Warrior on November 14, 2009, 06:16:40 PM
Thanks for the kind words.
Just got back from my kid's game and he cobbled together a nice little double-double. Some guy came up to me and my son after the game and said "he's gonna be a helluva player." I said (in front of him), "he did a good job, but he's never going to be a great player," then I kicked him in ass and told him to make me a turkey pot pie. Man, the honesty felt great. I don't want him to grow up to be soft, or get a big head. He's got girls and buddies to do that.
Buzz isn't Jimmy Butler's Dad and I assume your son isn't a 21 year old man. Slight difference, no?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 14, 2009, 06:36:02 PM
Buzz isn't Jimmy Butler's Dad and I assume your son isn't a 21 year old man. Slight difference, no?
Agreed. Probably could have all been a shade of teal.
Great Performance against an awful team=decent/good player
Buzz knows that.
Now, a great performance against a good/great team=great player.
If that were to happen consistently then "great" may be appropriate.
Buzz is just saying it how it is. The kids get that, they understand that right now, first game of the year, they aren't great--that doesn't mean without hard work, improvement and consistency they won't achieve great.
Do you find Al McGuire's past comments to be too "honest"?
I agree with the previous post that the iconic coaches are the ones who are the toughest on their players, honesty included.
Let's just be honest.. as long as Buzz is winning, his honesty will be considered "refreshing".
If they start losing and/or having transfers, people will say that Buzz is too public with his comments.
He won this week, so I'll say I like it.
Not only did you forget the word "really" before "he's a good player," which makes a big difference, but you also cut the quote off early. The entire quote was "Jimmy is not a great player, he is a really good player who works really hard." You are trying to spin his words to fit your argument and it's just not there. To me, the entire quite is saying that Jimmy is a really good player (talent), and then if you add in the fact that he works really hard, he IS actually a great player overall, but it isn't just pure talent.
Buzz IS brutally honest sometimes (I like it though), but this was definitely not a case of that. He was giving Jimmy a very good compliment.
Quote from: 2002mualum on November 15, 2009, 09:43:11 AM
Let's just be honest.. as long as Buzz is winning, his honesty will be considered "refreshing".
If they start losing and/or having transfers, people will say that Buzz is too public with his comments.
He won this week, so I'll say I like it.
Not everybody is a wind sock whose opinions regarding honesty and integrity change depending on the score of our most recent game.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 15, 2009, 10:42:58 AM
Not everybody is a wind sock whose opinions regarding honesty and integrity change depending on the score of our most recent game.
Oh come on, as a fan-base, that's the way things work.
"When I was losing, they called me nuts. When I was winning they called me eccentric."
-Al
Buzz has a great relationship with the players. I am certain that he tells his players exactly when he feels they needs to do to improve, and I am certain he vriefs them on what his tack will be in on-air interviews. I hope he tells them something like, yeah - look - I'm going to downnplay our efforts, tell hjow much work we all need to do, call out individuals who need work etc. and they might be fine with that.
On the outside looking in, other students, etc. hear this stuff adn may have certain opinions of the players, or feel some pathos for them, or feel embarrased for them. Who knows? But I at least hope Buzz is breifing the team on his on-air strategies.
Quote from: 2002mualum on November 15, 2009, 10:48:28 AM
Oh come on, as a fan-base, that's the way things work.
"When I was losing, they called me nuts. When I was winning they called me eccentric."
-Al
I'm not saying winning isn't important. If Buzz doesn't win enough he'll be fired (and justifyibly so) just like anybody else. That won't mean, though, that he was wrong to stress honesty and accountabilty - starting with himself and including his staff and players. Maybe you and others in the fanbase will rip him for that but it's unfair to suggest that all MU fans will.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on November 15, 2009, 11:21:39 AM
I'm not saying winning isn't important. If Buzz doesn't win enough he'll be fired (and justifyibly so) just like anybody else. That won't mean, though, that he was wrong to stress honesty and accountabilty - starting with himself and including his staff and players. Maybe you and others in the fanbase will rip him for that but it's unfair to suggest that all MU fans will.
You're right. Nobody is going to rip buzz for stressing honesty and accountability, but his style of doing so in public interviews will certainly be called into question (if he loses).
I like Buzz's honesty in interviews, but it's not the norm for major coaches (even the honest ones).
If Buzz wins, the perception will be that his interview style is charming and unique.
If he loses, the perception will be that his interview style is harsh and unneeded.
And just to be clear, I'm talking about his interview style (original post), not his overall ethics and integrity.
Quote from: 2002mualum on November 15, 2009, 11:31:57 AM
You're right. Nobody is going to rip buzz for stressing honesty and accountability, but his style of doing so in public interviews will certainly be called into question (if he loses).
I like Buzz's honesty in interviews, but it's not the norm for major coaches (even the honest ones).
If Buzz wins, the perception will be that his interview style is charming and unique.
If he loses, the perception will be that his interview style is harsh and unneeded.
And just to be clear, I'm talking about his interview style (original post), not his overall ethics and integrity.
Do you prefer Majerus pulling out his schlong in practice? :)
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/the_bonus/01/17/majerus/index.html
As far as the players yelling at the coach, some coaches handled it quite differently than others. Al McGuire, the legendary head coach (and color commentator), actually encouraged players to yell at him. This was undoubtedly due to his upbringing as a tough Irish New Yorker who felt if you had a problem with him, let's settle it - by rolling up the ol' sleeves and getting it on. The story, people who knew Al swear it's not apocryphal, about the time Al challenged one of his players to a fight under the bleachers and the two of them duked it out. After it ended, Al had no hard feelings, respected the kid and was ready to get on with whatever was next up on the practice plan (except Al never had a practice plan, just coached by gut feel). That day, his gut told him the best way to get his message across was to fight his own player. How can anyone argue with that logic?
http://www.jackfertig.com/wordpress/?cat=43
Al McGuire might've been going out a loser, but he wasn't leaving without a fight.
At halftime McGuire stormed into the Civic Auditorium locker room. He grabbed his stubborn sharpshooter Bernard Toone, shoved him against a wall, stuck a finger in his face and threatened his life. Then McGuire, the son of an Irish immigrant who grew out of his father's New York bar and into one of the game's finest coaches at Marquette, the technical foul machine who once knelt before officials at DePaul and begged them to take his car, his house, his job, but not this game, the 48-year-old man who announced in the middle of that 1977 campaign that he was calling it quits after the season, slapped Toone hard.
Across the face.
What happened next? Depends on who tells the story. Omahan Mark Lavin, a freshman walk-on for Marquette that year, recalls a few bodies crashing into a table, teammates stepping in to break it up.
What happened next? Everyone agrees. Marquette took the court for the second half of its first-round tussle with Cincinnati and turned a three-point deficit into a 15-point win. Sixteen days later, the Warriors were national champions.
"That was the beginning," Lavin said. "You don't know what sparks a team, what keeps the fire going during the entire tournament. But I have to believe there's something inside that carries you through each game. It started here in Omaha."
Quote from: warthog-driver on November 15, 2009, 12:08:16 PM
As far as the players yelling at the coach, some coaches handled it quite differently than others. Al McGuire, the legendary head coach (and color commentator), actually encouraged players to yell at him. This was undoubtedly due to his upbringing as a tough Irish New Yorker who felt if you had a problem with him, let's settle it - by rolling up the ol' sleeves and getting it on. The story, people who knew Al swear it's not apocryphal, about the time Al challenged one of his players to a fight under the bleachers and the two of them duked it out. After it ended, Al had no hard feelings, respected the kid and was ready to get on with whatever was next up on the practice plan (except Al never had a practice plan, just coached by gut feel). That day, his gut told him the best way to get his message across was to fight his own player. How can anyone argue with that logic?
http://www.jackfertig.com/wordpress/?cat=43
Great example.
Al won, so nobody really questions his methods.
If he had lost, everybody would have been all over him.
Quote from: 2002mualum on November 15, 2009, 11:31:57 AM
You're right. Nobody is going to rip buzz for stressing honesty and accountability, but his style of doing so in public interviews will certainly be called into question (if he loses).
I like Buzz's honesty in interviews, but it's not the norm for major coaches (even the honest ones).
If Buzz wins, the perception will be that his interview style is charming and unique.
If he loses, the perception will be that his interview style is harsh and unneeded.
And just to be clear, I'm talking about his interview style (original post), not his overall ethics and integrity.
Buzz is no more or less "honest" than any other coach in the business today.
His "honesty" is an attempt to lower expectations--no more, no less. He's not more "honest" when he says that MU should be picked last or that our players aren't really that good. He's lowering expectations to buy himself time. It's coach-speak. Its just different coach-speak than we are used to.
The biggest question is given the expectations people are voicing over the next two or three years, will he still be given credit for being "honest". Consider:
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on November 13, 2009, 06:22:44 AM
We sign tarik and we are the best team in the best conference in the country for the next 3-4 years...that translates into competing for Final fours every single year.
Quote from: wadesworld on October 21, 2009, 09:57:20 PM
Buzz Williams is building a program that has the potential to compete for Big East and National championships,
I cannot fathom Buzz claiming at Black's signing that we'll compete for final fours "every single year" he is with the team.
My guess is that next year's pre-season we'll hear some variation of "
'Riq and 'Der were both great HS players but they're not great college players and the only thing they'll compete for is getting off the bench. They'll have to learn to be as good as 'Zar or David. Until then, we're not even at the level we were last year."
We'll see if the love for Buzz's "honesty" holds if we're not competing for Big East championships and Final Fours within the next couple of years.
84, Buzz is who he is and thats how he presents himself. As he has said, he is humble to have the job and hopes he can meet expectations. If MU does poorly over the next few seasons, I suspect he'll be the first to admit that. I don't think he is trying to lower expectations. He's just telling it like it is.
Yeah, I think he should take pay attention to Skiles, and go more in that direction.
Quote from: avid1010 on November 15, 2009, 02:20:34 PM
Yeah, I think he should take pay attention to Skiles, and go more in that direction.
Buzz doesn't seem like the type to have a bunch of illegitimate kids around.
Quote from: Marquette84 on November 15, 2009, 01:15:11 PM
Buzz is no more or less "honest" than any other coach in the business today.
His "honesty" is an attempt to lower expectations--no more, no less. He's not more "honest" when he says that MU should be picked last or that our players aren't really that good. He's lowering expectations to buy himself time. It's coach-speak. Its just different coach-speak than we are used to.
The biggest question is given the expectations people are voicing over the next two or three years, will he still be given credit for being "honest". Consider:
I cannot fathom Buzz claiming at Black's signing that we'll compete for final fours "every single year" he is with the team.
My guess is that next year's pre-season we'll hear some variation of "'Riq and 'Der were both great HS players but they're not great college players and the only thing they'll compete for is getting off the bench. They'll have to learn to be as good as 'Zar or David. Until then, we're not even at the level we were last year."
We'll see if the love for Buzz's "honesty" holds if we're not competing for Big East championships and Final Fours within the next couple of years.
I seriously doubt Buzz will say that Vander Blue will have to "learn to be as good as David (Cubillan)"
Quote from: Nukem2 on November 15, 2009, 02:00:23 PM
84, Buzz is who he is and thats how he presents himself. As he has said, he is humble to have the job and hopes he can meet expectations. If MU does poorly over the next few seasons, I suspect he'll be the first to admit that. I don't think he is trying to lower expectations. He's just telling it like it is.
Oh come on. Even the most pessimistic of the prognostications had MU picked 12th. Yet Buzz suggested that we should have been picked last?
My guess is that behind the closed doors of the locker room, there is
absolutely no way that Buzz is telling the team that a 16th place finish is what he expects from them this year.
In fact, I cannot believe that he would be happy with
12th place, ahead of only DePaul, USF, Rutgers and Providence. He MUST telling the team that they are far too talented to settle for 12th place. I have to believe he's telling the new guys that they cannot let a talent like Lazar have a wasted senior season.
Do you doubt that Buzz is telling the players that
if they work hard and follow his plan,
then the upside is significantly higher than 12th place.
Yet I think you'd agree that's not the public message he's putting forth right now.
Quote from: Marquette84 on November 15, 2009, 04:21:07 PM
Oh come on. Even the most pessimistic of the prognostications had MU picked 12th. Yet Buzz suggested that we should have been picked last?
My guess is that behind the closed doors of the locker room, there is absolutely no way that Buzz is telling the team that a 16th place finish is what he expects from them this year.
In fact, I cannot believe that he would be happy with 12th place, ahead of only DePaul, USF, Rutgers and Providence. He MUST telling the team that they are far too talented to settle for 12th place. I have to believe he's telling the new guys that they cannot let a talent like Lazar have a wasted senior season.
Do you doubt that Buzz is telling the players that if they work hard and follow his plan, then the upside is significantly higher than 12th place.
Yet I think you'd agree that's not the public message he's putting forth right now.
Of course Buzz is telling his guys they can do better than 12th. He has not told the public that that his team can't finish higher. He was was merely talking about the poll. He's right. Based on returnees, MU should be 16th. But, thats not what he believes and I certainly did not interpret his comments that way.
Buzz is a good coach, not a great coach ;D
Quote from: Nukem2 on November 15, 2009, 04:54:26 PM
Of course Buzz is telling his guys they can do better than 12th. He has not told the public that that his team can't finish higher. He was was merely talking about the poll. He's right. Based on returnees, MU should be 16th. But, thats not what he believes and I certainly did not interpret his comments that way.
So you don't see any contradiction in telling the PLAYERS in private that he thinks they can do better than 12th while telling the PUBLIC that the polls should rightfully pick MU to finish 16th based on returnees.
Sorry--I call that lowering expectations.
Quote from: Marquette84 on November 15, 2009, 06:36:57 PM
So you don't see any contradiction in telling the PLAYERS in private that he thinks they can do better than 12th while telling the PUBLIC that the polls should rightfully pick MU to finish 16th based on returnees.
Sorry--I call that lowering expectations.
And I'd call that incorrect.
The key is this: Buzz might feel, based solely on RETURNEES, that we don't stack up very well with the competition. I don't think there's much to argue on that point.
However, based on expected contributions from new players, IN ADDITION to what we've got coming back, it's perfectly reasonable (and non-contradictory) to expect better than 16th, or 12th.
Semantics? Doubt it. Buzz doesn't seem the type. He addressed the issue at hand: based upon RETURNING PLAYERS, there's not much to be excited about around the AL these days. Luckily, we've got some fresh blood coming in.
Quote from: IAmMarquette on November 15, 2009, 07:06:32 PM
And I'd call that incorrect.
The key is this: Buzz might feel, based solely on RETURNEES, that we don't stack up very well with the competition. I don't think there's much to argue on that point.
Sorry. You're wrong.
I don't know why this is so difficult to understand.
Here's the quote:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/48635352.html
"So do you like the great unknown at this point? Is it exciting in a sense? I like the of excitement that nobody knows, we'll be picked 11th or 12th. Everybody will talk about, 'Well, it's a great recruiting class.' But of the 16 teams in the Big East, we return 64 minutes out of 200. That's dead-last. Distinctly dead-last. In points per game returning – I know you'll have a guess on this – we're dead-last. We've lost 72% of our scoring. And rebounding, I don't want to surprise you, we're dead-last. We return eight rebounds per game. We've lost 52% of our rebounding. We'll be picked 12th. We should be picked 16th. That's the truth. If you just statistically look at the data, we lost everything. Teams are always picked in accordance to their returning players."Quote from: IAmMarquette on November 15, 2009, 07:06:32 PM
However, based on expected contributions from new players, IN ADDITION to what we've got coming back, it's perfectly reasonable (and non-contradictory) to expect better than 16th, or 12th.
It most certainly is contradictory to say "We'll be picked 12th. We should be picked 16th" if you actually expect to finish better than 12th.
Quote from: IAmMarquette on November 15, 2009, 07:06:32 PM
Semantics? Doubt it. Buzz doesn't seem the type. He addressed the issue at hand: based upon RETURNING PLAYERS, there's not much to be excited about around the AL these days. Luckily, we've got some fresh blood coming in.
Buzz said he thinks we should be picked 16th--flat out--not just based on returnees, but overall.
If he honestly feels we should finish higher than 16th, then this statement was an attempt to lower expectations.
Quote from: Marquette84 on November 15, 2009, 08:02:35 PM
Sorry. You're wrong.
I don't know why this is so difficult to understand.
Here's the quote:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/48635352.html
"So do you like the great unknown at this point? Is it exciting in a sense? I like the of excitement that nobody knows, we'll be picked 11th or 12th. Everybody will talk about, 'Well, it's a great recruiting class.' But of the 16 teams in the Big East, we return 64 minutes out of 200. That's dead-last. Distinctly dead-last. In points per game returning – I know you'll have a guess on this – we're dead-last. We've lost 72% of our scoring. And rebounding, I don't want to surprise you, we're dead-last. We return eight rebounds per game. We've lost 52% of our rebounding. We'll be picked 12th. We should be picked 16th. That's the truth. If you just statistically look at the data, we lost everything. Teams are always picked in accordance to their returning players." Quote
The quote you highlighted shows Buzz listing off stats about how we return the least of everything and then the very next sentence says they pick the things off of how many people return. I don't see where you are getting that this is not Buzz saying we should be picked last because we return the least.
Quote from: Marquette84 on November 15, 2009, 08:02:35 PM
Buzz said he thinks we should be picked 16th--flat out--not just based on returnees, but overall.
If he honestly feels we should finish higher than 16th, then this statement was an attempt to lower expectations.
Maybe he did think that if the team, at that point in time, played the Big East schedule they would finish last.
But in that he could see that the kids, with work on their game and work as a team, could improve throughout the year to be something better than 16th-probably something substantially better.
I don't see the harm in that at all. He is not hyping the potential: he is telling it how it is now.
Lastly, I just don't see the harm with Buzz saying players aren't great after a game against Centenary!!!(going back to original post) I mean, if he's "lowering expectations" (which he is not) by saying 27 and 13 wasn't a great performance go ahead, because it was against a near future D-3 team. The bar needs to be set pretty damn high going against that competition to deserve the label 'great'-higher than 27 and 13.
At some point, I expect Buzz to say that he hasn't discussed expectations for this team as far as wins and losses and standings in the BEast. Not once. I expect that he will say that the only expectations he has talked about is the effort in practice, the effort in the classroom, and that they will try to get better every day in every way. Then he will throw some off the wall number of how many good practices versus bad practices that the team or an individual player has had but how proud and impressed he is by the attitude of the team and how much he loves teaching. Coach-speak? Maybe. How about the term "Buzz-speak." It means a far different thing than it would have meant if I had coined the phrase when I was at MU ;D, but the man has definitely established a pattern.
Jim Calhoun's comments after Jerome Dyson dropped 27 points and 8 assists on William and Mary:
"Jerome played awful and good at the same time tonight," said UConn coach Jim Calhoun.
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on November 16, 2009, 08:57:13 AM
"Jerome played awful and good at the same time tonight," said UConn coach Jim Calhoun.
Calhoun's "Honesty" Starting to Bug Me! :D
Quote from: Marquette84 on November 15, 2009, 08:02:35 PM
Sorry. You're wrong.
I don't know why this is so difficult to understand.
Here's the quote:
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/48635352.html
"So do you like the great unknown at this point? Is it exciting in a sense? I like the of excitement that nobody knows, we'll be picked 11th or 12th. Everybody will talk about, 'Well, it's a great recruiting class.' But of the 16 teams in the Big East, we return 64 minutes out of 200. That's dead-last. Distinctly dead-last. In points per game returning – I know you'll have a guess on this – we're dead-last. We've lost 72% of our scoring. And rebounding, I don't want to surprise you, we're dead-last. We return eight rebounds per game. We've lost 52% of our rebounding. We'll be picked 12th. We should be picked 16th. That's the truth. If you just statistically look at the data, we lost everything. Teams are always picked in accordance to their returning players."
It most certainly is contradictory to say "We'll be picked 12th. We should be picked 16th" if you actually expect to finish better than 12th.
Buzz said he thinks we should be picked 16th--flat out--not just based on returnees, but overall.
If he honestly feels we should finish higher than 16th, then this statement was an attempt to lower expectations.
Sorry buddy, you are wrong. You are getting to sound a lot like Murff... :o
We're 1-0 and recently signed the biggest recruit in sometime, snatching him away from our instate rival right?
Ok, just checking. Continue regularly scheduled griping over minutiae .