MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: CrazyEcho on October 19, 2009, 12:26:15 AM
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Knowing what you know now, do you think it helped the program that Crean left and we got Buzz? As in, do you think the program is better off now than it would have been had Crean never left.
To answer my own question: I would not trade Buzz for Crean. I'm really happy where things are now and think this program is totally going in the right direction.
When Crean left, I honestly felt like a long-term girlfriend had broken up with me. I figured she (Crean for this analogy) would be the best girl that I've ever date. But, Buzz has turned out to be much, much better than I thought he would be.
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No, even the day after he left I would keep Buzz. I'm glad we moved on and gave him a shot because so far he is proving what many thought he couldn't do.
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MU would have had Tyshawn Taylor and would have maybe been better last year. But probably would not have had Butler, so would Taylor really have contributed that much more than Butler did?
Crean was tough to lose because who knew if we were going to get a decent replacement. Crean was good at promoting the program and getting us into the Big East. The players that played all 4 years seemed to graduate and have good character. He is a great program CEO. I would take Crean over a lot of other coaches in the country.
However, I would not ever trade Buzz for Crean. Buzz is a better recruiter and seems to know the game better. For example, when Buzz talks about the game, he cites specific strategic plans like getting paint touches. I never heard Crean really analyze anything or show that we had a strategy besides his big play book and having guards dribble around on top and chuck it up. I also cannot think of a time when I felt like Crean won a game with coaching, though I am sure examples exist. Buzz on the other hand has made strategic decisions. For example, Buzz put Acker on that Notre Dame guard last year and he was able to keep a hand in his face, and McNeal and James were able to save more energy for offense and rebounding.
Crean also never put together back to back recruiting classes like Buzz has. Once Buzz gets his own players out there, we will also be able to see what kind of style he will play.
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I find all this Crean Vs Buzz stuff stupid. No way in hell Buzz would have been able to promote MU like Crean did nor have the selfish ambitions to push to play in the Big East.
That said, no way Crean would have signed Blue. Or developed Wes, etc.
Each coach is different and both have led Marquette to where they are now. We are lucky to have the coaches come at the right time. If either coach was asked to be put in the others shoe, I feel they would have struggled. I feel we would have been a weak mid-major if Buzz replaced Deane. I feel we would have hit our peak if Crean stayed on as coach.
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Let's see where Buzz and the MU program stands after 8 more years.
Then I can fairly chime in.
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Can't answer it for another few years. If he maintains what Crean did, graduates players, successful on the court, good steward of the program....fantastic.
That won't be known for a few years. Like any of this stuff, there is also a honeymoon period for all of it.
Go back and read Ohio State message boards about Jim Tressel his first 5 years, read them now. Do the same for Ben Howland today vs two years ago. Look at Tom Crean in year 4 vs year 8. It's the nature of the beast, people get WAY WAY too caught up on both ends of the spectrum. Between "fire X coach" websites for one bad year to "give him a lifetime contract" for one good season.
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right now, no.
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I find all this Crean Vs Buzz stuff stupid.
+1. It's been more than a year and a half and still this goes on like a broken record. Why don't we discuss the Cold War while we're at it.
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Ah, let me think about it.
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+1. It's been more than a year and a half and still this goes on like a broken record. Why don't we discuss the Cold War while we're at it.
Between this thread and the other one "Did Crean hold us back?", it really is getting old. No matter what happens at MU, commitments, transfers, arrests, academics, living conditions, eateries, it always goes back to TC. Or a TC compared to Buzz issue. Move on already.
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Can't answer it for another few years. If he maintains what Crean did, graduates players, successful on the court, good steward of the program....fantastic.
That won't be known for a few years. Like any of this stuff, there is also a honeymoon period for all of it.
Go back and read Ohio State message boards about Jim Tressel his first 5 years, read them now. Do the same for Ben Howland today vs two years ago. Look at Tom Crean in year 4 vs year 8. It's the nature of the beast, people get WAY WAY too caught up on both ends of the spectrum. Between "fire X coach" websites for one bad year to "give him a lifetime contract" for one good season.
The question was would you trade Buzz for Crean TODAY, not eight years from now. It calls for an opinion, a yes or no answer. You have to pick A or B, you can't make up a C and choose it. It must be torture going out to lunch with you and watching you agonize over the menu.
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Lets face it, TC was the right guy at the right time and an excellent decision by Bill Cords. TC brought a lot to MU and has moved on. The MU program owes a lot to TC. But, Buzz is the guy now and he appears to be the right guy at the right time as MU moves on. Don't need a PR guy now. Just solid recruiting and coaching and building of character while maintaining academic standards.
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unequivocally no. Buzz Williams in his first two recruiting classes so far has probally had two of the best recruiting classes in marquette history according to the numbers. The offense under Buzz Williams was dramatically improved compared to the season before with Crean. Those are just by the numbers though. The things that have impressed me most about Buzz so far have been his intelligence and character. The thing that stands out to me now more then it did before when I think about Buzz is when about a year and a half ago when he got the job, one of the main factors that led to his hiring was how much the current players admired and loved him. It was an admiration that seemed to transcend a player/coach working relationship, and seemed to be much more of a family type bond. One of the ghosts that still lingers with crean is how polarizing he seemed to be with the players he recruited. While there were a great deal that loved him and still do, there were many grumblings of players that disliked him strongly, and also an uncharicteristic amount of transfers. With crean, players respected him, but with Buzz, players respect and love him. While Buzz Williams will truly never be as flashy as Tom Crean, I am constantly taken aback at how articulate and genuine he is when he speaks, a rare quality alone, but even rarer to be found together. He may never be the ringmaster that Crean was, but he has done a remarkable job thus far in representing the university, and one only has to look at the videos posted of him speaking to families at parents weekend to see the why he is so special. If i could lock him in for a lifetime contract today, i would not hesitate for a second to pull the trigger. This guy is a special coach, and god forbid, if the Texas or Oklahoma job were ever to open up down the road, I have a grim feeling that either of these schools will go after him real hard.
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Lets face it, TC was the right guy at the right time and an excellent decision by Bill Cords. TC brought a lot to MU and has moved on. The MU program owes a lot to TC. But, Buzz is the guy now and he appears to be the right guy at the right time as MU moves on. Don't need a PR guy now. Just solid recruiting and coaching and building of character while maintaining academic standards.
Well said!
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unequivocally no. Buzz Williams in his first two recruiting classes so far has probally had two of the best recruiting classes in marquette history according to the numbers. The offense under Buzz Williams was dramatically improved compared to the season before with Crean. Those are just by the numbers though. The things that have impressed me most about Buzz so far have been his intelligence and character. The thing that stands out to me now more then it did before when I think about Buzz is when about a year and a half ago when he got the job, one of the main factors that led to his hiring was how much the current players admired and loved him. It was an admiration that seemed to transcend a player/coach working relationship, and seemed to be much more of a family type bond. One of the ghosts that still lingers with crean is how polarizing he seemed to be with the players he recruited. While there were a great deal that loved him and still do, there were many grumblings of players that disliked him strongly, and also an uncharicteristic amount of transfers. With crean, players respected him, but with Buzz, players respect and love him. While Buzz Williams will truly never be as flashy as Tom Crean, I am constantly taken aback at how articulate and genuine he is when he speaks, a rare quality alone, but even rarer to be found together. He may never be the ringmaster that Crean was, but he has done a remarkable job thus far in representing the university, and one only has to look at the videos posted of him speaking to families at parents weekend to see the why he is so special. If i could lock him in for a lifetime contract today, i would not hesitate for a second to pull the trigger. This guy is a special coach, and god forbid, if the Texas or Oklahoma job were ever to open up down the road, I have a grim feeling that either of these schools will go after him real hard.
+1000
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I'm making this call not on recruits, numbers, character, or any of that...
I like Buzz's haircut better than Crean's (no homo).
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I'll take TC (who gets a solid B) because I have to give Buzz an F.
Buzz has not completed all of the tests and homework yet, but he seems like a bright student.
Buzz has great potential, but at this point I cannot give him a real grade.
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TC did wonders for us. No complaints. And his PR machine helped MU tremendously. But I beleive Buzz right now is doing something that TC did not believe could be done at MU: recruit 5 star players, have great back to back recruiting classes, etc. Buzz has a lot more to do over the next several years for us to have a better answer, but right now? No. Would not trade. Maybe Buzz feels the PR will come with recruiting great players, developing them and winning. That seems to work for others, and seems to be more durable PR :)
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Let it go, crean is gone. Can/will some of us ever move on?
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I'll take TC (who gets a solid B) because I have to give Buzz an F.
Ok, that's ridiculous. So every college student that hasn't yet completed their degree is failing? They have 1, 2, or 3 years of accomplishment to give them a grade "to this point", and you won't look at any of it. Yeah, that's reasonable.
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Ok, that's ridiculous. So every college student that hasn't yet completed their degree is failing? They have 1, 2, or 3 years of accomplishment to give them a grade "to this point", and you won't look at any of it. Yeah, that's reasonable.
BINGO! You are exactly right.
But, when Chico's basically said: "Incomplete" or "Too early to tell" he was blasted for it by Lenny's Tap.
So I used Lenny's logic and made a choice. Crean has completed the course with a B. If I had to chose today, Buzz gets an F because he didn't take the final exam.
For the record, I don't think you can really compare the coaches yet... I think you need several seasons to evaluate.
I mean, if you took a poll about Buzz after the Clark incident, it would be entirely different than today. And what's the difference? 1 kid? I know Blue is good, but let's not get crazy.
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Let it go, crean is gone. Can/will some of us ever move on?
totally agree. Crean spent nine years at MU. Lets see how everyone pitches a fit once Buzz starts being mentioned for other coaching positions. Will Buzz stay nine years? Who knows.
To determine after one year that Buzz is better is beyond stupid.
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I find all this Crean Vs Buzz stuff stupid.
and kind of pathetic too.
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I'll take TC (who gets a solid B) because I have to give Buzz an F.
Buzz has not completed all of the tests and homework yet, but he seems like a bright student.
Buzz has great potential, but at this point I cannot give him a real grade.
In a related story, new Brewers GM 2002mualum traded Ryan Braun for Paul Konerko.
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In a related story, new Brewers GM 2002mualum traded Ryan Braun for Paul Konerko.
Well, you asked for an honest opinion (and I couldn't use option "c"), and then you blast me for it because you disagree.
I really, really like Buzz's potential. I swear to God that I do.
However, if you are asking me to chose one or the other today, I'm taking Crean because he has proven he can do it at MU.
How about this: If Buzz hadn't signed Blue, I'd still be saying that we need to give him more time to get his players in and make the program his own. I've been saying this for a long time.
I'm sorry that I'm not ready to anoint Buzz as the greatest or fire him for being the worst yet.
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If you were asked to rate Buzz's first 18 months on a scale of 1 to 10, how could anyone give him anything lower then a 9 at least?
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Well, you asked for an honest opinion (and I couldn't use option "c"), and then you blast me for it because you disagree.
I really, really like Buzz's potential. I swear to God that I do.
However, if you are asking me to chose one or the other today, I'm taking Crean because he has proven he can do it at MU.
How about this: If Buzz hadn't signed Blue, I'd still be saying that we need to give him more time to get his players in and make the program his own. I've been saying this for a long time.
I'm sorry that I'm not ready to anoint Buzz as the greatest or fire him for being the worst yet.
I certainly did not "blast" you. I merely made an innocent joke. I've watched Buzz Williams represent the university that I love for 18+ months with a class, dignity and humility that's not in Tom Crean's DNA. Recruits and their families are evidently seeing the same things. Add that to my view that he coached Crean's own players better than TC did and I'm a believer. You're not. You prefer Crean and will continue to until Buzz passes some "final exam" (I guess in 8 years or so). I totally disagree, but fair enough.
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I've been waiting to weigh-in on this very topic for a while...I actually think that Buzz is an upgrade. It was a big risk/bet to hire Buzz, but I think/hope that it will pay off.
Crean was great for the program - he (and D. Wade) got MU back on the big-time b-ball Map after Dean. He was great at building excitement and enthusiasm and always was well prepared for games w/ a good game plan. Also, ran a very clean program as far as I can tell. But I think his in-game adjustments were THE WORST EVER. How many close games did MU lose at the end b/c we couldn't execute last second shots (there are too many to list here). We almost never were on the winning end of close games. If we needed to get out of our set playlist, we were lost. So I think that Crean took us as far as he could have, which was great & I'm very thankful for it.
However, I think that when it's all said & done, Buzz will prove to be a better recruiter and X's & O's coach. How he turned around the Providence game last year & our success in NCAAs w/o James would have never occurred if Crean was on the sidelines. And landing players like Blue is HUGE. I'm very excited for the future and hope everyone doesn't get overly frustrated/critical of this year's team. Look at the next 1.5 years as pre-season for building the program for an awesome run in late '11/'12 and '12/'13 seasons. GO MARQUETTE!!!
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I certainly did not "blast" you. I merely made an innocent joke. I've watched Buzz Williams represent the university that I love for 18+ months with a class, dignity and humility that's not in Tom Crean's DNA. Recruits and their families are evidently seeing the same things. Add that to my view that he coached Crean's own players better than TC did and I'm a believer. You're not. You prefer Crean and will continue to until Buzz passes some "final exam" (I guess in 8 years or so). I totally disagree, but fair enough.
I just need to see more. You seem to dislike that, but that's where I'm at.
I LOVE what Buzz has done so far. The team, the program, the marketing, the recruiting, etc. I love it.
However, I'd like to see him do well with his own players and see how he continues to run the program. (first 2 classes have been great).
Also, for perspective, I was never a big Mike Deane fan, but I also wasn't "sold" on TC after his first season. I thought they played hard, and I liked the players he was bringing in, but I wanted to see what he did for 3 years before I could say I was a "fan".
Your Ryan Braun vs Konerko reference earlier was actually an interesting comparison. But, I would argue that Buzz is in AAA right now.
He hasn't even completed a season with his own players, so I'm not ready to predict that he's a future All-Star. I like his chances, but I'm not betting the farm on it.
I really think any coaches "rookie year" is really comprised of his first 3 years on the job. It takes a couple full recruiting classes and some coaching before I can really evaluate is a coach is awesome or terrible.
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Who cares.
Crean turned kids into men and won us basketball games. His past players like him enough to continue supporting his efforts even though he's switched schools.
Buzz wears his heart on his sleeve. He seems to be inspiring these young men into growing both physically and emotionally as well as pulling down decent recruiting classes.
These guys aren't measured by what we think of them. They're measured by what their players think of them and their successes on the court. I hope that the rest of this discussion is out of boredom instead of actually caring one way or another.