Talk about connections and using them...but shouldn't Wade really remain NEUTRAL remove himself or not have direct contact since the kid's also a Marquette target?
IU, Oladipo bonding
The interest between IU and Victor Oladipo began last fall but took a huge step forward this summer.
The 6-5 Oladipo, a prospect from the Class of 2010, has become a prime target for IU coach Tom Crean. He plays for Hyattsville (Md.) DeMatha.
"They're involved a lot right now," Oladipo said. "It started in November or December, and I have just been building a relationship with them. I really like Indiana and love Coach Crean."
Oladipo has chatted with NBA star Dwyane Wade about Crean and his style of play. (Wade played for Crean at Marquette.) Oladipo was in Wade's group during a Father's Day cookout on the South Lawn at the White House hosted by President Obama.
Obama invited several celebrity fathers and local teens to the event.
"""I asked (Wade) what he thought of Coach Crean, and he said he was the reason why he is the man he is today." Oladipo said. "It was good to hear. That right there makes me very interested. Coach Crean is a cool person."
Oladipo said he has scholarship offers from Maryland, Marquette, Pittsburgh, Auburn, South Florida, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Oklahoma Sate and Notre Dame.
"(The Indiana staff) said they really like watching me play and that I will fit well into their system," Oladipo said. "We'll see."
http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20090808/SPORTS11/908080361/1002/rss07
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on August 08, 2009, 08:23:05 PM
"""I asked (Wade) what he thought of Coach Crean, and he said he was the reason why he is the man he is today." Oladipo said. "It was good to hear. That right there makes me very interested. Coach Crean is a cool person."
The NCAA considers Wade an MU booster so he can't get involved with recruiting to his alma mater.
Wade is free to respond to direct questions about Crean--obviously Wade feels differently about Crean than many here do.
Coach Player relationships can be very strong. Look at Tony Miller and O'Neill, he loves the guy.
Quote from: Marquette84 on August 08, 2009, 09:39:45 PM
The NCAA considers Wade an MU booster so he can't get involved with recruiting to his alma mater.
Wade is free to respond to direct questions about Crean--obviously Wade feels differently about Crean than many here do.
Well, that darn right sucks. For both reasons. :(
He can't even wear Marquette from top to bottom while talking about Indiana?
Thanks for the info...
Honestly, I'm quite shocked at Wade's comments. I read here (often) that Crean was a complete tool and no one liked him, especially the players.
::)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 08, 2009, 11:47:32 PM
Honestly, I'm quite shocked at Wade's comments. I read here (often) that Crean was a complete tool and no one liked him, especially the players.
::)
C'mon Chico. You know that should have been in teal...even with the ::).
Why would Crean choose someone like to smear him? He knows Wade wouldn't and - apparently, Wade can't vouch for MU as a "booster" - so it works to his advantage.
For every person with praise there's someone with stinging criticism.
Here's a question someone might know: Did Crean have the pull to ask Mateen Cleaves, the Flint fam, or other MSU dudes to recruit for him at MU?
Devin Harris has talked to Vander Blue about going to Wisconsin...
"He also assists his alma mater whenever he can — for example, he has spoken to Madison Memorial standout Vander Blue about playing for the Badgers."
http://www.badgerbeat.com/news/article/id/458868
Using Wade can backfire as each individual recruit is different.
In the case of Nick Williams-----he was coming to MU because Crean developed Wade-----then he follows Crean to IU only to leave after one year------obviously because his expectation of playing under TC were too high as he apparently saw some negatives of playing under TC.
The the case of Schmpert. TC has Wade fly up from Miami specifically to impress Schumpert, but it didn't work because Schmpert apparently saw through the charade as overkill. Just because D Wade came to MU as a very unusual talent and developed ultimately into a super star doesn't mean that TC is able to do that with every talented recruit-----in fact no one else that had played for TC ever approached Wade's level of play in the NBA------and that includes DJ, JM, and W Mathews who didn't even get drafted!
Quote from: Murffieus on August 09, 2009, 08:13:50 AM
-----in fact no one else that had played for TC ever approached Wade's level of play in the NBA------and that includes DJ, JM, and W Mathews who didn't even get drafted!
They didn't get drafted only because Crean didn't
get to coach them their senior year. If TC was still here, they would have all been first round picks, potentially lottery selections.
I'm not unhappy about Wade's comments about Crean .. But if he realized MU was also recruiting him, it's disappointing he would display a loyalty to Crean above Marquette.
(Like I'm a Brewers fan, but if they are playing the Twins, I'm a Twins fan.)
(Off topic .. where is Nick Williams headed now?)
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on August 09, 2009, 10:21:33 AM
(Off topic .. where is Nick Williams headed now?)
Mississippi. Obviously has to sit out a year, then has three years left.
Quote from: Jay Bee on August 09, 2009, 10:20:12 AM
They didn't get drafted only because Crean didn't get to coach them their senior year. If TC was still here, they would have all been first round picks, potentially lottery selections.
I don't agree that TC would have made a difference on DJ, JM, and WM getting drafted. First of all WM was a better player under Buzz ------secondly, DJ got worse under TC, not better-------and JM had his best numbers ever under Buzz.
Quote from: GOMU1104 on August 09, 2009, 07:26:21 AM
Devin Harris has talked to Vander Blue about going to Wisconsin...
"He also assists his alma mater whenever he can — for example, he has spoken to Madison Memorial standout Vander Blue about playing for the Badgers."
http://www.badgerbeat.com/news/article/id/458868
It's not called "UW Probation" for nothing.
This is from their own site:
http://www.uwbadgers.com/compliance/boosters/recruitment.aspx
QuoteOnly University of Wisconsin athletic department staff may be involved in the recruitment process. Representatives of athletics interests may not make any recruiting contacts. This includes letters, telephone calls, or face-to-face contact on or off campus with a prospect or a prospect's parents. If a prospect initiates contact with you, you must refer any questions about our athletic program to an athletic department staff member/coach.
You may view a prospect's contest at your own initiative provided you do not contact the prospect, parents, coach, or any other person associated with the prospect in an attempt to recruit the prospect. However, you may continue established relationships with family and friends, as long as contacts are not made for recruiting purposes or at the direction of UW coaches.
The NCAA considers a prospect to be any student in grades 9-12 regardless of whether the UW is recruiting the prospect or if the prospect even participates in athletics."
If Harris he has "assisted his alma-mater" by speaking with Blue about playing for the Badgers, this is a pretty clear violation.
The obvious response is... "What if Blue/Oladipo contacted Harris/Wade...then its OK right?"
Then the question is, how did Blue/Oladipo get Harris'/Wade's phone number?
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on August 09, 2009, 10:21:33 AM
I'm not unhappy about Wade's comments about Crean .. But if he realized MU was also recruiting him, it's disappointing he would display a loyalty to Crean above Marquette.
He went up to Wade and asked a question about Crean. Wade gave an honest response to the kid, and there is nothing wrong with that even if he did know MU was recruiting him (which I doubt). Wade wasn't showing loyalty to Crean above MU, he was simply answering a question. If the kid asked about MU, I'm sure Wade would have had a lot of positives to say as well.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on August 08, 2009, 11:57:44 PM
C'mon Chico. You know that should have been in teal...even with the ::).
Why would Crean choose someone like to smear him? He knows Wade wouldn't and - apparently, Wade can't vouch for MU as a "booster" - so it works to his advantage.
For every person with praise there's someone with stinging criticism.
Here's a question someone might know: Did Crean have the pull to ask Mateen Cleaves, the Flint fam, or other MSU dudes to recruit for him at MU?
No, don't think it should have been in teal. Some people here point blank said that the players hated Crean. Apparently, despite these people in the know, they weren't always correct. More importantly, the players at the very top of the food chain from MU continue to help Crean even though he's not here any longer. That says a lot.
Quote from: Marquette84 on August 09, 2009, 01:59:46 PM
It's not called "UW Probation" for nothing.
This is from their own site:
http://www.uwbadgers.com/compliance/boosters/recruitment.aspx
If Harris he has "assisted his alma-mater" by speaking with Blue about playing for the Badgers, this is a pretty clear violation.
Did Devin Harris graduate? If he hasn't and still is enrolled and taking classes he can still talk to recruits... Same with Wade and MU
The Marquette references in Wade's commercials over the past few years keep MU front-and-center in the mind of many a recruit. The NCAA won't let Wade close the deal for Marquette with a recruit, but he is a huge part of the marketing for the team so that recruits in most of the country don't ask "Mar-what?" when Buzz and staff call. Along with Big East exposure, Wade is the biggest reason we are signing 4-stars - let's not worry too much about Wade saying nice things about TC when asked a direct question.
That's not to take any credit from the great job Buzz and staff are doing, but you have to have a great product to sell, and as long as recruits are watching DWade and Big East games on TV, we have a shot at them.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on August 08, 2009, 11:57:44 PM
Here's a question someone might know: Did Crean have the pull to ask Mateen Cleaves, the Flint fam, or other MSU dudes to recruit for him at MU?
Crean landed Brandon Bell, Charlie Bell's brother.
Wade is obviously going to show a tremendous amount of loyalty to Crean. Crean took a chance on him when very few coaches would, knowing that he would have to sit out a year due to academic reasons.
Regarding recruiting, everyone knows that major college basketball recruiting is a giant cesspool. Coaches will use anything to get an advantage.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 09, 2009, 04:19:00 PM
No, don't think it should have been in teal. Some people here point blank said that the players hated Crean. Apparently, despite these people in the know, they weren't always correct. More importantly, the players at the very top of the food chain from MU continue to help Crean even though he's not here any longer. That says a lot.
I agree with you, but let's be honest, some people just hate the guy and there isn't anything anybody can say to dissuade them.
You can say that Travis, Steve, Brian Barone, Wade, Todd Townson, Fr. Wild, Al McGuire, Jesus, etc. etc. have all had good things to say about TC, but it will fall on deaf ears.
Some people have their established beliefs and opinions, and that's it. They will look for things that support their beliefs, and rationalize those things that don't.
The same can be said about people who think TC walks on water (although I don't think there are many people like that left).
The truth (as always) probably lies in the middle.
As far as Wade goes, let's just boil it down to what it is:
- Wade owes a lot to TC and has a lot of loyalty to his old coach
- TC owes a lot to Wade and has a lot of loyalty to his old player.
It's always going to be that way.
Quote from: Jay Bee on August 09, 2009, 10:20:12 AM
They didn't get drafted only because Crean didn't get to coach them their senior year. If TC was still here, they would have all been first round picks, potentially lottery selections.
?!?! You can't be serious. I was one of the few Tom Crean fans among my alumni friends. While TC brought the swagger back to Marquette's program, Jerel, Wes and James improved alot in their final year since they didn't have to run those boring offensive sets that weren't effective against the zone defense. While Buzz had the luxury of having seniors he could give the reigns to, I don't know how you can feel that these guys would have been 1st round picks if Crean was their coach last year.
It's in TEAL, dude, TEAL!!
Quote from: BrewCity on August 10, 2009, 01:22:21 PM
It's in TEAL, dude, TEAL!!
And in case you don't understand that, here's a more direct explanation.
Teal == Sarcasm
Quote from: 2002mualum on August 10, 2009, 10:55:05 AM
I agree with you, but let's be honest, some people just hate the guy and there isn't anything anybody can say to dissuade them.
You can say that Travis, Steve, Brian Barone, Wade, Todd Townson, Fr. Wild, Al McGuire, Jesus, etc. etc. have all had good things to say about TC, but it will fall on deaf ears.
Some people have their established beliefs and opinions, and that's it. They will look for things that support their beliefs, and rationalize those things that don't.
The same can be said about people who think TC walks on water (although I don't think there are many people like that left).
The truth (as always) probably lies in the middle.
As far as Wade goes, let's just boil it down to what it is:
- Wade owes a lot to TC and has a lot of loyalty to his old coach
- TC owes a lot to Wade and has a lot of loyalty to his old player.
It's always going to be that way.
Let me first state that I'm sure you're really a nice guy and your efforts as a "peacemaker" on this issue are sincere. But when you write "The truth (always) probably lies in the middle" it makes me smile. (always) probably? Is the the definite maybe that I've heard so much about?
I further dismiss your suggestion that Chicos (or you and others by extension) occupy the middle ground in this discussion. You both acknowledge his imperfections but hold him in very high esteem. I acknowledge his accomplishments but am alarmed by his failures as a human being. You think you've arrived at a fair and reasoned conclusion based on the information available. So do I and many who would agree with me. So who's in the middle?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 10, 2009, 02:06:18 PM
You think you've arrived at a fair and reasoned conclusion based on the information available. So do I and many who would agree with me. So who's in the middle?
Great point.
I'm sure everybody always thinks they are "in the middle" and on a given issue, when obviously that's not possible.
My point on top of Chico's post was simply to point out that for better or worse, there are people on this board that really think TC is a bad person, and there is no changing that. Wade having positive comments about his former college coach is not going to prove anything to people that truly dislike Tom Crean. It's just not.
Everybody is going to have a different viewpoint, and that's cool... I just don't see any need to beat it into the ground.
I'm sure you feel like you have a very reasonable viewpoint of MU basketball and specifically TC, and I feel the same way. Neither of us is technically "right" because it's all just speculation and opinion.
Truth be told, we all probably share a lot of the same opinions, but the nature of internet message boards tends to lead to disjointed communication, hyperbole, straw-man arguments, ultimately arguments personal attacks. It's just the nature of writing out messages and opinions that can be misinterpreted.
Have a great afternoon, Lennys!
Quote from: TomW1365 on August 10, 2009, 12:43:46 PM
?!?! You can't be serious. I was one of the few Tom Crean fans among my alumni friends. While TC brought the swagger back to Marquette's program, Jerel, Wes and James improved alot in their final year since they didn't have to run those boring offensive sets that weren't effective against the zone defense. While Buzz had the luxury of having seniors he could give the reigns to, I don't know how you can feel that these guys would have been 1st round picks if Crean was their coach last year.
A lot of guys at MU improved their senior season, with or without Buzz Williams (or Tom Crean for that matter). Travis Diener, Steve Novak, Robert Jackson, Wes Matthews, Jerel McNeal, DJ, etc all improved their senior season because through the natural progression of things, usually your senior season is your best season....usually. It's your last chance to make your mark, you're a leader, the most experienced member(s) of the team, etc, etc.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 10, 2009, 02:06:18 PM
Let me first state that I'm sure you're really a nice guy and your efforts as a "peacemaker" on this issue are sincere. But when you write "The truth (always) probably lies in the middle" it makes me smile. (always) probably? Is the the definite maybe that I've heard so much about?
I further dismiss your suggestion that Chicos (or you and others by extension) occupy the middle ground in this discussion. You both acknowledge his imperfections but hold him in very high esteem. I acknowledge his accomplishments but am alarmed by his failures as a human being. You think you've arrived at a fair and reasoned conclusion based on the information available. So do I and many who would agree with me. So who's in the middle?
Sorry Lenny, but we're much more in the middle ground here than you. We recognize his faults and applaud his achievements. We're not locked in on one or the other, that's what puts you out of the middle. As for his failures as a human being....whoa. Again, I suppose it's all in how you grade someone out. I grade someone that cheats on his wife with a student athlete on a high scumbag scale than say someone that gave his son an award at a camp. I don't find the two even remotely the same, but others do I guess.
I'll continue to lock in on the evidence I'm presented. For the group that continues to say how dreaded of a human being he is (or one that has so many alarming failures), it just boggles the mind how time after time people of much higher notiriety than 2002mualum, myself, 84 or anyone else on this board keep going to bat for this failed human being. To hear some people say it, he's burned every bridge in North America and is so despised, by even his own players, that he's a walking leper. I'm sorry, but it sure seems like often when I pick up the paper or read something online regarding Crean it's attached to someone of note (Wade, Diener, Izzo, LaRussa, Knight, Doc Rivers, etc, etc) who is most often saying something postive about that guy.
Now, I certainly undertand some people who will say an endorsement from LaRussa or Knight or Doc isn't something to get excited about, maybe they are right. But after awhile you start looking at all of these people that seem to be on his side and it does make you scratch your head.....
why can't they see what Lenny sees? Why can't they see what some others here see? Those are questions that perhaps only you can answer. ;)
I can answer that. The people Chicos mentions are people of some notoriety...the very people whose approval our former coach craves.
Ask the employees of the Bradley Center what they think of him. Plus, you yourself have admitted his is not an endearing personality yet you cite Tony LaRussa as some kind of character reference. Tony LaRussa! A guy Crean was likely writing fawning letters to? And you think he is familiar with he horse's ass? Only in that Crean flies to Spring Training every year to lick his ball sack. Where has Bobby Knight said anything?
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on August 10, 2009, 07:28:02 PM
I can answer that. The people Chicos mentions are people of some notoriety...the very people whose approval our former coach craves.
Ask the employees of the Bradley Center what they think of him. Plus, you yourself have admitted his is not an endearing personality yet you cite Tony LaRussa as some kind of character reference. Tony LaRussa! A guy Crean was likely writing fawning letters to? And you think he is familiar with he horse's ass? Only in that Crean flies to Spring Training every year to lick his ball sack. Where has Bobby Knight said anything?
I cited both LaRussa as well as people like Wade and Diener. For all I know, Novak as well (but I don't know that).
I'm sure many folks at the Bradley Center didn't care for him, I have no doubt whatsoever. Just as I know some didn't care for Mike or Kevin. Coaches are a strange, wound tight bunch, at least many of them are. But he's also not the anti-Christ people make him out to be either.
He did a lot of good things for MU and the Milwaukee community. He also rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. I suspect after 9 years, even someone like Buzz Williams might do the same thing, if Buzz is here in 9 years (considering our last 6 coaches, only 1 made it that long, we'll see).
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on August 10, 2009, 07:28:02 PM
I can answer that. The people Chicos mentions are people of some notoriety...the very people whose approval our former coach craves.
Ask the employees of the Bradley Center what they think of him.
That's actually a very good point (honestly). But, a recruit is probably going to be more inclined to ask Dwyane than an usher at the BC. That's just life. Dwyane has insight that a BC worker could never have. I think the usher in my section of the BC is a cool dude, but he probably doesn't know the coaching staff as well as the players.
Let's face it, TC, by reputation is not the easiest guy to work with or work for. I don't think anybody can debate that. I have good friends who worked for him while they were in school, and they said he could be a huge dick. I'm not surprised that some people didn't care for him. I'll never dispute that.
However, in fairness to him, show me a leader in any large organization, and I bet I can find a person who doesn't like him. That's VERY VERY common.
A truly great leader is somebody who is respected and well liked by the people who work for him/her. I don't think TC really falls in this category, nor do I think many people do. It's rare air.
I think TC falls in the "He pushes himself and others extremely hard to accomplish his (and the team's) goals" category.
PLEASE NOTE: I said HIS goals intentionally because lets just be honest here and admit that all great D1 coaches have an ego and some career goals in mind for themselves.
I don't think TC's naturally charismatic (like Al), or has a great feel for teaching the game (Hank). But, he has proven he has a work ethic that can make him and his team successful in college hoops. In other words, Tom works hard enough to make himself adequately charismatic and personable, and works very hard on player development and teaching basketball.
I feel like I'm giving a fair evaluation, but I do realize that I have some biases, so everybody who disagrees with me, feel free to call me a TC lover. :)
EDIT: I also think he's too tan and has a bad haircut. Boom. Roasted.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 10, 2009, 07:37:08 PM
I cited both LaRussa as well as people like Wade and Diener. For all I know, Novak as well (but I don't know that).
I'm sure many folks at the Bradley Center didn't care for him, I have no doubt whatsoever. Just as I know some didn't care for Mike or Kevin. Coaches are a strange, wound tight bunch, at least many of them are. But he's also not the anti-Christ people make him out to be either.
He did a lot of good things for MU and the Milwaukee community. He also rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. I suspect after 9 years, even someone like Buzz Williams might do the same thing, if Buzz is here in 9 years (considering our last 6 coaches, only 1 made it that long, we'll see).
There is a common denominator that either escapes you or you choose to ignore. That the famous or the powerful (Dick Strong) speak well of TC means nothing to me. As a 30 year member of the CBOE I knew plenty of guys who sucessfully cultivated relationships with the biggest traders even as they treated the runners and clerks (their perceived inferiors) like dirt. For me there is no one lower.
Quote from: 2002mualum on August 10, 2009, 08:23:31 PM
That's actually a very good point (honestly). But, a recruit is probably going to be more inclined to ask Dwyane than an usher at the BC. That's just life. Dwyane has insight that a BC worker could never have. I think the usher in my section of the BC is a cool dude, but he probably doesn't know the coaching staff as well as the players.
Let's face it, TC, by reputation is not the easiest guy to work with or work for. I don't think anybody can debate that. I have good friends who worked for him while they were in school, and they said he could be a huge dick. I'm not surprised that some people didn't care for him. I'll never dispute that.
However, in fairness to him, show me a leader in any large organization, and I bet I can find a person who doesn't like him. That's VERY VERY common.
A truly great leader is somebody who is respected and well liked by the people who work for him/her. I don't think TC really falls in this category, nor do I think many people do. It's rare air.
I think TC falls in the "He pushes himself and others extremely hard to accomplish his (and the team's) goals" category.
PLEASE NOTE: I said HIS goals intentionally because lets just be honest here and admit that all great D1 coaches have an ego and some career goals in mind for themselves.
I don't think TC's naturally charismatic (like Al), or has a great feel for teaching the game (Hank). But, he has proven he has a work ethic that can make him and his team successful in college hoops. In other words, Tom works hard enough to make himself adequately charismatic and personable, and works very hard on player development and teaching basketball.
I feel like I'm giving a fair evaluation, but I do realize that I have some biases, so everybody who disagrees with me, feel free to call me a TC lover. :)
EDIT: I also think he's too tan and has a bad haircut. Boom. Roasted.
I agree with much of what you say. Nobody is ever loved by everyone. But doesn't it strike you as odd that people who can help TC or raise his profile are generally positive about him while the "great unwashed" (basically everyone else) see him very differently. This screams fake to me but maybe it's just one of the biggest coincidences of all time.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 10, 2009, 08:26:41 PM
There is a common denominator that either escapes you or you choose to ignore. That the famous or the powerful (Dick Strong) speak well of TC means nothing to me. As a 30 year member of the CBOE I knew plenty of guys who sucessfully cultivated relationships with the biggest traders even as they treated the runners and clerks (their perceived inferiors) like dirt. For me there is no one lower.
No one is lower than Dick Strong? Tom Crean? Or those that treated the runners & clerks like dirt? I'm just trying to clarify.
Oh, and yes the deonominator clearly escaped me. ;D
Lenny, I think people should be treated with respect, especially your employees and those in the organization. Of course, I also have a rule that I'm more than happy to treat someone as they treat others. ;) I don't disagree with your premise as stated above, but 2002MUAlum also makes a point in reality, there are just very CEOs, head coaches, etc that are going to come off as great guys, great leaders, successful, and respected universally. Incredible rare.
Hell, you could probably find people that hated Wooden during the 1960's and 70's, there will always be people that don't like someone, feel mistreated, feel disrespected. In fact, in today's world with our constant whining 24/7, that's the norm.
My guess is that Crean did whatever he felt was right to achieve the goals he had put forth for his team and his own personal ambitions, but he also set those goals in a manner that required kids to graduate, stay off the police blotter, stay out of NCAA investigations and to perform. On the way to doing that, he treated some people like crap. No different that Bobby was at IU or Lombardi in Green Bay, but they got more of a pass because they won titles.
I've met many a head coach in my life and worked with many of them, most are individuals who are extremely driven, a bit insecure and tend to rub people the wrong way, especially people that are not used to working with those types of personalities.
I hope Buzz is the man of your dreams in terms of a great coach, great guy, world class human being. We would all like that, I can assure you.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 10, 2009, 08:41:48 PM
I agree with much of what you say. Nobody is ever loved by everyone. But doesn't it strike you as odd that people who can help TC or raise his profile are generally positive about him while the "great unwashed" (basically everyone else) see him very differently. This screams fake to me but maybe it's just one of the biggest coincidences of all time.
Except that aren't you taking the "great unwashed" and applying some kind of huge number to it? Some of you seem to think that 80% of our season ticket holders hated the guy when in fact it's more like a vocal minority of 20%...the same 20%.
Most of the "great unwashed" did not care either way or liked him for what he had done for the program. Because of the lens you view him through, you've decided to claim that everyone else views him through that same lens unless they are people that can raise his profile.
That seems fake to me.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 10, 2009, 08:41:48 PM
I agree with much of what you say. Nobody is ever loved by everyone. But doesn't it strike you as odd that people who can help TC or raise his profile are generally positive about him while the "great unwashed" (basically everyone else) see him very differently. This screams fake to me but maybe it's just one of the biggest coincidences of all time.
I see it. I'm not blind.
I guess my scale of comparison comes from other head coaches out there.
I bet the following list of coaches have also been called "fake" or "slick" at some point.
Pittino
Huggins
Bo Ryan
Calipari
Coach K (has a great rep. for the most part, but there has been a backlash)
Bobby Knight (not seen as fake, but also has the biggest ego of the bunch)
JTIII
etc.
I'm not saying this gives MU's coach (whoever that is) free reign to be a complete jackass. But, let's also realize that college coaching is a job that requires a large ego and a tough personality. That combination is probably not going to give you a list of "great people". My neighbor is a great guy, but, I don't want him coaching at MU. I want a highly competitive SOB that pushes his kids hard on the court and in the classroom.
CURRENT EXAMPLE:
I hope Buzz turns out to be as good and honest of a guy as he appears. I hope he keeps that forever. I hope everybody from the ticket takers to Dick Strong love the guy. I also hope MU wins 15 straight national titles.
But, I won't be shocked if none of those things come true.
Not everybody is going to be the belle of the ball like Al was. It's a rare combo.
Also, Lenny, I knew you and I thought alike. ;)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 10, 2009, 09:03:26 PM
Except that aren't you taking the "great unwashed" and applying some kind of huge number to it? Some of you seem to think that 80% of our season ticket holders hated the guy when in fact it's more like a vocal minority of 20%...the same 20%.
Most of the "great unwashed" did not care either way or liked him for what he had done for the program. Because of the lens you view him through, you've decided to claim that everyone else views him through that same lens unless they are people that can raise his profile.
That seems fake to me.
I'm talking about people I know who know TC personally or have worked for him. I don't claim that my poll is scientific and the sample size is small (around 25-30). On a personal level not one has anything positive to say. If that seems fake to you so be it.
Back to it...
Bylaw 13.02.12 defines a booster. An abbreviated version of this regulation is set forth below: A "Booster" is any individual who is a member of the university's athletics booster club, has ever made any donations to the club or athletic department, is involved in any manner of recruiting prospects or in providing benefits (summer jobs) to enrolled student-athletes, or is otherwise involved in promoting the university's athletic's program.
I'm taking this as promotion of a coach is NOT promotion of a program.
And if Wade ever donates to IU's basketball team, he'd be a booster, correct?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 10, 2009, 10:28:20 PM
I'm talking about people I know who know TC personally or have worked for him. I don't claim that my poll is scientific and the sample size is small (around 25-30). On a personal level not one has anything positive to say. If that seems fake to you so be it.
I've had the same experience, and here's how I rationalize it (everybody feel free to dispute):
#1 Certainly he's challenging to work for, especially for a college kid. TC probably works 90+ hours per week, so he probably doesn't realize that asking students in the ticket office to work 30 hours plus classes is a big deal.
#2 The same people I heard bitch about him, also called TC for tickets to games after they graduated. They always got good seats too! When I asked them about it (ie "I thought you hated him, why do you even want to deal with him?"), the response was usually, "Well, he can be a jerk, but really he was just trying to push the program to be better. I realize that now. I would never work for him again, but I don't think he's a bad guy." (I'm paraphrasing).
#3 For comparison sake (and this isn't scientific) what kind of track record do other coaches have? I bet I can find a lot of people that have worked for Bobby Knight that hated the guy... but Bobby is a hall of fame coach. Am I really going to be mad at Bobby Knight because he's too hard on the ticket staff or student managers? Probably not. (for the record I'm not saying TC is as good of a coach as Knight, I'm just using the comparison scale of if staff "liked" the head coach)
#4 I hope/want a coach that's well liked and wins a ton of games. Seriously. I would LOVE that, and I don't think they are mutually exclusive (ie you can be a good guy and win). Maybe that guy is Buzz, who knows?
However, in my non-scientific estimation, I bet that most of the successful D1 coaches have pretty big egos, work too many hours and are very hard on their staff. Why do I think that? Because these guys are under a TON of pressure to win, and it takes a tough personality to handle that. If my job was on the line every day/every season, I'd be tough to deal with too.
Again, I feel like I'm being accurate and fair in my evaluation, and I'm open to feedback.
I can comprehend both sides of this TC argument, but the one thing that is prevalent among his supporters is the excuses made for his behavior (like he is entitled to it).
Quote from: PE8983 on August 11, 2009, 08:48:25 AM
I can comprehend both sides of this TC argument, but the one thing that is prevalent among his supporters is the excuses made for his behavior (like he is entitled to it).
That's a good point, and you're right.
There is a very fine line between understanding a person's rationale (or reasons for doing something) and just making excuses for him. I'm not even sure if I'm seeing it perfectly given my own (and everybody's) biases. It's probably a moving target for most people.
I don't want to give the head coach at MU (whoever that is) carte blanche to act like a dick "because most coaches are".
However, to be fair to MU's head coach (whoever that is), he really needs to be compared to his contemporaries in most/all facets.
I think if you compare TC to his contemporaries, he's not as bad as people make him out to be. He might not be a guy I want to hang around with, but he's certainly not as evil, "phony" and manipulative as he's made out to be.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 10, 2009, 10:28:20 PM
I'm talking about people I know who know TC personally or have worked for him. I don't claim that my poll is scientific and the sample size is small (around 25-30). On a personal level not one has anything positive to say. If that seems fake to you so be it.
Fair enough. As I've stated, personally, I thought he was tough to work for but fair. Now, I left early in his tenure due to the sudden death of my father out here on the west coast, so I only had about 6 months with TC. Some of my friends that stayed on, well I shouldn't speak for them.
But in talking to other entities in the community, he also had a lot of positives that he did for various charities, etc and those people spoke very highly of him.
In the end, it comes down to a rather simple numbers game in my opinion. There are people that vehemently hate him, to the point that they've gone overboard with their comments and critiqued him on so many levels as literally question what shoes he wears in a Coaches vs Cancer game (black sneakers vs white sneakers), attacking his wife and her looks, how his home is decorated, etc. That's fine, people can do what they want.
There are many people here, myself included, that understand his faults but appreciated what he did for the program and school....mainly run a clean program, put kids in the NBA, win a ton of games, no NCAA violations, Final Four, NCAAs as a routine again, a driving force for the Al and the Big East and best of all....I can't forget....having the vision to hire Buzz Williams.
I don't condone bad conduct just as I didn't with Knight at IU. I think people should be treated with respect and in a dignified way. If people felt they weren't respected by TC, then shame on TC.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 11, 2009, 12:07:28 PM
There are many people here, myself included, that understand his faults but appreciated what he did for the program and school....mainly run a clean program, put kids in the NBA, win a ton of games, no NCAA violations, Final Four, NCAAs as a routine again, a driving force for the Al and the Big East and best of all....I can't forget....having the vision to hire Buzz Williams.
Only time can tell on that one...
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on August 11, 2009, 01:28:17 PM
Only time can tell on that one...
Agreed. I should have put it in teal but then I'd be labeled a Buzz hater. ::)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 11, 2009, 01:54:01 PM
Agreed. I should have put it in teal but then I'd be labeled a Buzz hater. ::)
as if we didn't know that already
^^^great use of teal ;)
I'm still waiting for people to actually describe the terrible "behavior" that Crean is alleged to have shown.
So far, the only tangible example anyone actually cited is Hayward's camp example from a few weeks back.
Now in this thread, we have new innuendo about Bradley Center ushers and employees, to go along with the previously cited "Tom Crean is difficult to work for" claims.
For example:
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 10, 2009, 10:28:20 PM
I'm talking about people I know who know TC personally or have worked for him. I don't claim that my poll is scientific and the sample size is small (around 25-30). On a personal level not one has anything positive to say. If that seems fake to you so be it.
Hmm--could the results of this sample have been influenced by the way Lenny treats people who say anything positive about Crean?
Could these 25-30 people know that any positive comment about Crean results in angry unhinged name calling from Lenny that they'd just as soon avoid?
Nobody tells him anything positive about Crean because they know it will just set him off. Meanwhile, to make Lenny happy, people tell him all the bad and nasty stories they have heard about Crean because he eats it up--they probably embellish those stories along the way.
Pauline Kale was reported to have said after Nixon's landslide victory in '72 that she couldn't believe Nixon had won, since no one she knew had voted for him. I'm beginning to think that Lenny is in exactly that same situation regarding Crean.
Quote from: Marquette84 on August 12, 2009, 10:29:15 PM
I'm still waiting for people to actually describe the terrible "behavior" that Crean is alleged to have shown.
So far, the only tangible example anyone actually cited is Hayward's camp example from a few weeks back.
Now in this thread, we have new innuendo about Bradley Center ushers and employees, to go along with the previously cited "Tom Crean is difficult to work for" claims.
For example:
Hmm--could the results of this sample have been influenced by the way Lenny treats people who say anything positive about Crean?
Could these 25-30 people know that any positive comment about Crean results in angry unhinged name calling from Lenny that they'd just as soon avoid?
Nobody tells him anything positive about Crean because they know it will just set him off. Meanwhile, to make Lenny happy, people tell him all the bad and nasty stories they have heard about Crean because he eats it up--they probably embellish those stories along the way.
Pauline Kale was reported to have said after Nixon's landslide victory in '72 that she couldn't believe Nixon had won, since no one she knew had voted for him. I'm beginning to think that Lenny is in exactly that same situation regarding Crean.
Kudos Sherlock. Your incredible deductive reasoning coupled with the keen eye of a master pshychologist has exposed me. It is comforting, though, to know that so many people will go to such lengths to ensure my happiness. Except of course for an angry name caller such as yourself who becomes unhinged at any negative comment about TC. And just as Nixon claimed he was not a crook you'll likely insist you're not a crock. Very few people believed him either.
edit: fix quote
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 13, 2009, 12:09:27 AM
Kudos Sherlock. Your incredible deductive reasoning coupled with the keen eye of a master pshychologist has exposed me. It is comforting, though, to know that so many people will go to such lengths to ensure my happiness. Except of course for an angry name caller such as yourself who becomes unhinged at any negative comment about TC. And just as Nixon claimed he was not a crook you'll likely insist you're not a crock. Very few people believed him either.
edit: fix quote
Check out the first two words of your post and we will see who the "angry name caller" is.
I rest my case.
Quote from: Marquette84 on August 13, 2009, 08:01:47 AM
Check out the first two words of your post and we will see who the "angry name caller" is.
I rest my case.
I guess when someone is busy trying to be equal parts Sherlock Holmes, Sigmund Freud and now Perry Mason there's no room left for any sense of humor. Pity.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on August 12, 2009, 08:01:13 PM
as if we didn't know that already
^^^great use of teal ;)
Nicely done!! ;D