MUScoop

In Chicago, alot of people are asking which feat is more impressive.  

I don't want to shortchange Buehrle's accomplishment at all, as it is an amazing feat, but I think Wood's 20 strikeout game is more impressive.  I may be biased though being a Cubs fan.

In Buehrle's perfect game, his defenders recorded 21 outs including an amazing catch by Wise.  But it is just that:  perfect.

In Wood's game, his fielders recorded 6 outs as one ball was a bouncer back to Wood himself.  And Wood's stuff that day was absolutely nasty.  Professional hitters looked Little Leaguers that day.  There was, however, a softly hit ground ball that bounced off third basemen Kevin Ories glove for a hit.

A perfect game has been thrown 18 times while a 20K game has only been thrown 4 or 5 times I believe.

What do you think?

Here is a link to the debate on David Kaplan's blog.  You may recognize him as he does tv for MU games several times a year.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/david-kaplan-chicago-sports/2009/07/kerry-woods-20-strikeout-game-vs-mark-buehrles-perfect-game-which-was-more-impressive.html (http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/david-kaplan-chicago-sports/2009/07/kerry-woods-20-strikeout-game-vs-mark-buehrles-perfect-game-which-was-more-impressive.html)

Perfect game is winning on the blog with 55% of the vote.

From an individual perspective, I think it's the 20K's because it's basically the pitcher doing it all.  From a team perspective, I'd say the Perfect game because you're relying not just on the pitcher but the defense to make great plays behind you.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 27, 2009, 12:23:10 PM
From an individual perspective, I think it's the 20K's because it's basically the pitcher doing it all.  From a team perspective, I'd say the Perfect game because you're relying not just on the pitcher but the defense to make great plays behind you.

exactly what I was going to say.  I think a lot of the people voting for perfect game aren't actually thinking about it before voting.

I have to hand it to the perfect game in regards to the overall baseball experience.

In Buehrle's perfect game Wise robbed a home run to keep it going, that was absolutely incredible!  

In Sanchez' no hitter there was one error, so no Perfect Game.

A perfect game speaks to the team in it's entirety as well and an incredible individual pitching performance.  Best thing to watch.

However, 20K's in one game!  I remember watching that.  Incredible dominating stuff.  Better stuff than what Buehrle had in his Perfect Game.  

But I think the Perfect Game is more substantial as a team.  Also Buehrle did not hit a batter nor give up a walk.  The Perfect game occurs more often but still entirely priceless.  

You can still lose a game with a 20 K performance, unlikely but still possible.  You wouldn't lose a game on a completed Perfect game.  That is my ultimate measure.

Kerry Wood was filthy that day in May. Not too mention it was his 5th start.

While 20k's is very impressive, aside from the Wise catch and a few other very good defensive plays and a few balls that went just foul that could have resulted in extra base hits, the Sox got the vast majority of their outs off of routine plays which means the pitcher was most likely hitting his spots and getting the hitters to do what he intends as a finesse pitcher, weak grounders to the infield to make the plays.  I think that while the strikeouts shows a pitcher dominating the other team, the fact that Buehrle pitched to his strengths and got the outs in a way that he is expected to is more impressive because he isn't a power pitcher.  He got the opposition out on its front foot and kept them guessing most of the day with a lot of weak contact.

Quote from: marqptm on July 27, 2009, 12:39:03 PM
Kerry Wood was filthy that day in May. Not too mention it was his 5th start.

so there wasn't much of a scouting report on him is what you're saying  ;)

I'd say the perfect game, but both are absolutely ridiculous.  I just think about how 1 mistake ends it all, whether it's 1 bad pitch that is hit, or 1 bad pitch that hits a batter, or 1 error by a teammate, or one bad call by an umpire.  If there were 3 or 4 web gems I might say 20 Ks, but Buehrle dominated the game.  Not in the form of strikeouts, but the only defensive play that really stuck out was Wise's catch (and that was absolutely ridiculous).  Other than that Buehrle made it look easy.  Both are hard to even imagine.

If I was Sanchez in San Francisco, I'd be sooo pissed at Uribe for that error ruining the perfect game.  I guess without the error though he doesnt have the pressure of a perfect game....just a no-hitter!

Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 27, 2009, 01:24:21 PM
If I was Sanchez in San Francisco, I'd be sooo pissed at Uribe for that error ruining the perfect game.  I guess without the error though he doesnt have the pressure of a perfect game....just a no-hitter!

Haha +1

No kidding, Sanchez should't have to pay for a meal the rest of the year.
(Did I just agree to something Baseball related with TT?  What the hell!?)

I have heard the argument that Wood really only had 19k's since he struck out the pitcher. Clemens struck out 20 twice and had to face the DH.

At the end of the day, it's a no-hitter, the most prestigious baseball accomplishment for a pitcher. The nod goes to Buehrle.

Reminds me of the argument about what is more rare...hitting for the cycle or pitching a no hitter.

At one point, hitting for the cycle was more rare, but then MLB threw out about 50 no hitters because they didn't meet their new definition.  It is now very slightly more rare to see a no hitter than the cycle.

I judge on what I would rather see in person, and for me personally, a perfect game hands down.

The perfect game, no question about it.  The debate is not about stuff or the much ballyhooed "dominant outing"  -- it's about inimitable excellence.  A perfect game demonstrates the highest degree of excellence a pitcher can produce. The opposition, despite 27 opportunities, never reaches base.   Strikeouts merely are a means to an end.

And....strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist.  ;D

BTW, note that Wood didn't walk anybody in his 20K game.......nor did Clemens in either of his 20K performances. Not sure about Big Unit

The only hit Wood gave up was a scratch hit that deflected off the glove of third baseman Kevin Orie. Some thought it could have been an error. A better third baseman comes up with that play, which had a fraction of the degree of difficulty of Wise's 9th inning catch.

Buerhle's was phenomenal, Wood's was otherworldly. But I'd take MB's career. To me, Wood's entire career has been a major disappointment. I've never understood his popularity.

Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on July 27, 2009, 03:10:32 PM
The only hit Wood gave up was a scratch hit that deflected off the glove of third baseman Kevin Orie. Some thought it could have been an error. A better third baseman comes up with that play, which had a fraction of the degree of difficulty of Wise's 9th inning catch.

Buerhle's was phenomenal, Wood's was otherworldly. But I'd take MB's career. To me, Wood's entire career has been a major disappointment. I've never understood his popularity.

I voted for the perfect game, it is the pinnacle of what every pitcher wants to achieve in their baseball career: cy young, starter for all-star game, winning game 7 of the world series, perfect game.

Going with the dissapointing Wood career, FSN is replaying the game where Sheets strikes out 18 Atlanta Braves.  He was so good...when healthy, makes me mad everytime watching it, why tease me FSN?  why piss me off?  Still wish I could have seen a half of a season with Sabathia, Sheets and Gallardo healthy, could have been REAL dangerous in the playoffs, considering Sabathia might not have had to pitch every other day during the season then, keeping him fresh for the playoffs.

Quote from: NYWarrior on July 27, 2009, 02:16:02 PM
The perfect game, no question about it.  The debate is not about stuff or the much ballyhooed "dominant outing"  -- it's about inimitable excellence.  A perfect game demonstrates the highest degree of excellence a pitcher can produce. The opposition, despite 27 opportunities, never reaches base.   Strikeouts merely are a means to an end.

And....strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist.  ;D

BTW, note that Wood didn't walk anybody in his 20K game.......nor did Clemens in either of his 20K performances. Not sure about Big Unit

I kind of disagree....wasn't the question "what is more impressive"?


There have been 18 perfect games in history, how many games with 20 strikeouts?

I believe there have been 4 games in MLB history with 20 strikeouts.

Either way, I wish I had a ticket for either one.


I saw Nolan Ryan's 300th win in person and I was at Angels stadium for the improbable game 6 comeback in the World Series trailing 5-0 in the 7th inning.   I'd love to be fortunate enough to see a no-hitter or a 20K strikeout game once in my life.

I was at Zambrano's no-no and the atmosphere was incredible especially as it passed the fifth inning.

I wouldn't trade seeing that no-hitter let alone a perfect game for the 20k game. But I still think the 20K is a more impressive feat.

I was at this game in Old Comiskey.  I saw a no hitter, my team won and the Yankees were the worst team in baseball.  

"Even a no-hitter couldn't produce a victory for the worst team in baseball.

Andy Hawkins of the New York Yankees today pitched the sixth no-hitter this season and the third in less than 48 hours, but he lost by 4-0 to the Chicago White Sox on two outfield errors in the eighth inning.

He is the first to pitch a complete game, allow no hits and lose since Houston's Ken Johnson in 1964 (1-0, to Cincinnati). In 1967 Steve Barber and Stu Miller of Baltimore combined to no-hit Detroit in a 2-1 loss."


As far as the topic goes....Perfect is always more impressive than non-perfect regardless of stats.  There is a reason they call it Perfect, you cannot do any better.

EDIT:  This happened July 2, 1990

Quote from: SaintPaulWarrior on July 27, 2009, 06:51:14 PM
I was at this game in Old Comiskey.  I saw a no hitter, my team won and the Yankees were the worst team in baseball.  

No you didn't.   ;)   


On September 4, 1991 the Committee for Statistical Accuracy, appointed by Commissioner Fay Vincent, changed the definition of a no-hitter to require that a pitcher throw at least nine full innings and a complete game. Since Hawkins played for the visiting team, the White Sox never batted in the ninth inning and Hawkins lost the credit for a no-hitter.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 27, 2009, 07:26:15 PM
No you didn't.   ;)   


On September 4, 1991 the Committee for Statistical Accuracy, appointed by Commissioner Fay Vincent, changed the definition of a no-hitter to require that a pitcher throw at least nine full innings and a complete game. Since Hawkins played for the visiting team, the White Sox never batted in the ninth inning and Hawkins lost the credit for a no-hitter.

I saw a pitcher throw the max. innings possible and not give up a hit.   A no-hitter.  Definitions formed by a bunch of clowns appointed by a clown are meaningless to me.  He had credit for a no hitter while I was sitting in the stands at the end of the game.   ;)

The best part is the Yankees were the worst team in the league at the time.  End of year the Yankees had the second worst record and the Braves were the worst team in '90.

Quote from: SaintPaulWarrior on July 27, 2009, 07:52:55 PM
I saw a pitcher throw the max. innings possible and not give up a hit.   A no-hitter.  Definitions formed by a bunch of clowns appointed by a clown are meaningless to me.  He had credit for a no hitter while I was sitting in the stands at the end of the game.   ;)

The best part is the Yankees were the worst team in the league at the time.  End of year the Yankees had the second worst record and the Braves were the worst team in '90.

My Angels lost a no-hitter as well as part of the way of defining it.  Last year the Halos lost to the Dodgers 1-0 as the Halos pitched a no hitter at Dodger stadium, but since we were the visiting team it didn't count. 

Well said here....the box score doesn't lie    http://openmike.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/29/1174700.aspx

SaintPaul Warrior, I'm guessing by your name you live in the Twin Cities. See you going to any of the Sox/Twins games this week?

Watching right now as we're down in the 6th. God I hate that dome...

Quote from: Ahoya06 on July 27, 2009, 08:52:43 PM
SaintPaul Warrior, I'm guessing by your name you live in the Twin Cities. See you going to any of the Sox/Twins games this week?

Watching right now as we're down in the 6th. God I hate that dome...

Have season tickets for next year.  I will never step foot into that dump.

EDIT:  Except for 2003 MU/Pitt, MU/UK or any other future MU tourney games there.

Buehrle's or whoever's perfect game, i don't really think its that close. they are both feats of strength, but the perfect game is perfect, can't do much better than that

wonder if we should add two grand slams in one game to the poll...

Quote from: Hards_Alumni on July 28, 2009, 08:01:51 AM
wonder if we should add two grand slams in one game to the poll...

It's more rare than a perfect game but not as rare as a 20 strikeout game. 

Perfect is perfect....nothing is better

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/190635-ron-neccai-27-strikeouts-in-nine-inning-game

But this is pretty close.

Quote from: warrior55 on July 28, 2009, 10:40:57 AM
Perfect is perfect....nothing is better

As a team, yes...as an individual, no.  There's a reason why in 10+ years of baseball 20 strikeouts has happened 4 times yet perfect games have happened 4X as much.

Buehrle just had ordinary stuff that day.  The balls all just happened to be hit to someone.  Wood had sickening stuff and one of the six batted balls hit off a fielders glove. 

I think it all comes down to luck thus I give the nod to the guy with amazing stuff:  Wood.

I don't want to shortchange the perfecto, I just think the 20Ks is more impressive.

Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 28, 2009, 12:26:03 PMBuehrle just had ordinary stuff that day.

Uhhhhhhhhh...ummmmmmm...

Quote from: wadesworld on July 28, 2009, 12:29:54 PM
Uhhhhhhhhh...ummmmmmm...

Care to refute it? Did you watch the performance? No, you didn't.

MB even said himself that he didn't even feel like he pitched his best, but hit balls found fielders.

Quote from: marqptm on July 28, 2009, 12:53:11 PM
Care to refute it? Did you watch the performance? No, you didn't.

MB even said himself that he didn't even feel like he pitched his best, but hit balls found fielders.

I watched the last 2+ innings.  He was good, not great.  That's the thing, to pitch a perfect game you don't have to be dominant...in fact, you can be good and lucky.  To strike out 20 guys in a game, you have to be dominant (luck isn't going to get it done).

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 28, 2009, 01:48:52 PM
I watched the last 2+ innings.  He was good, not great.  That's the thing, to pitch a perfect game you don't have to be dominant...in fact, you can be good and lucky.  To strike out 20 guys in a game, you have to be dominant (luck isn't going to get it done).

Agreed.

I watched the MB perfect game replay the night of the event, and it was a great watch. Unfortunately, I knew the outcome, but it was still very exciting. Everyone from MB to the team to the manager's defensive positioning all deserve credit for the outcome.

this isn't about luck, or dominance.  it's about impressive.  i would bet if you asked major league pitchers which they would rather have on their resume, a perfect game or a 20 k day, most would say a perfect game.  a perfect game is the ultimate prize for a pitcher.  it's what you strive for whenever you take the mound...27 up, 27 down, by any means necessary.  If the question was who was more dominant, then sure, Kerry Wood wins.  But a perfect game is a more impressive pitching achievement.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 28, 2009, 12:09:25 PM
As a team, yes...as an individual, no.  There's a reason why in 10+ years of baseball 20 strikeouts has happened 4 times yet perfect games have happened 4X as much.

Sure there's a reason why -- players swing and miss more now than ever before.  In the last 25 years the K/AB ratio of MLB players has spiked to unprecedented levels.

Hitters today are not afraid to K regularly while their predecessors were...players today strikeout at rates never before seen in the history game.   MLB.com reported that AL batters "fanned a record 14,925 times in 2008, an increase of 35 from a 2007 total that had been a record. The National League also set a new mark in 2008, with 17,959 punch-outs. AL teams have averaged 1,000 strikeouts per club 10 times in history, while NL clubs have hit that mark 13 times. All of those occurrences have been in the past 13 years."   Individually the figures are more acute -- 8 of the top 10 single season strikeout victims in MLB history happened within the last 9 years (and soon enough, all 10 will be with guys like Cust and Howard taking hacks).  In fact 18 of the 'top 20' individual strikeout seasons happened in the last 23 years.  The pitchers love it, just look at the list of starters with 2,000Ks or more -- the list is heavily weighted to the last 25 yrs (an era when innings pitched have gone down).

Also any pitching performance is not completely an individual effort.  That is of course unless the pitcher is Bugs Bunny -- the only pitcher I knew who also called games and served as his own catcher, not to mention covering the other seven positions on the field.  Kerry Wood was no Bugs Bunny.  Neither was Clemens (twice), or the Big Unit.

Quote from: NYWarrior on July 28, 2009, 03:01:57 PM
Sure there's a reason why -- players swing and miss more now than ever before.  In the last 25 years the K/AB ratio of MLB players has spiked to unprecedented levels.

Hitters today are not afraid to K regularly while their predecessors were...players today strikeout at rates never before seen in the history game.   MLB.com reported that AL batters "fanned a record 14,925 times in 2008, an increase of 35 from a 2007 total that had been a record. The National League also set a new mark in 2008, with 17,959 punch-outs. AL teams have averaged 1,000 strikeouts per club 10 times in history, while NL clubs have hit that mark 13 times. All of those occurrences have been in the past 13 years."   Individually the figures are more acute -- 8 of the top 10 single season strikeout victims in MLB history happened within the last 9 years (and soon enough, all 10 will be with guys like Cust and Howard taking hacks).  In fact 18 of the 'top 20' individual strikeout seasons happened in the last 23 years.  The pitchers love it, just look at the list of starters with 2,000Ks or more -- the list is heavily weighted to the last 25 yrs (an era when innings pitched have gone down).

Also any pitching performance is not completely an individual effort.  That is of course unless the pitcher is Bugs Bunny -- the only pitcher I knew who also called games and served as his own catcher, not to mention covering the other seven positions on the field.  Kerry Wood was no Bugs Bunny.  Neither was Clemens (twice), or the Big Unit.

Interesting stats...thanks

Another interesting MB stat is he has faced 27 batters in a game 3 times in his career.

Perfect game.
No-hitter----picked off Sammy strike out at first after a walk.
1-hitter-----double play ball to eliminate runner.

Wow.  Buehrle was perfect through 5-2/3 tonight in Minnesota.  He just the MLB record of consecutive batters retired (45, I think).  

He only has 3 Ks though, so really, he was unimpressive during this stretch.  Clearly his stuff remains 'ordinary'

:)

Quote from: NYWarrior on July 28, 2009, 08:33:27 PM
Wow.  Buehrle was perfect through 5-2/3 tonight in Minnesota.  He just the MLB record of consecutive batters retired (45, I think).  

He only has 3 Ks though, so really, he was unimpressive during this stretch.  Clearly his stuff remains 'ordinary'

:)

You should put that in teal....don't think anyone said he was unimpressive, just that striking out 20 is a more impressive feat by a pitcher because it's all on him (don't need your teammates other than the catcher).

;)

Quote from: marqptm on July 28, 2009, 12:53:11 PMCare to refute it? Did you watch the performance? No, you didn't.

MB even said himself that he didn't even feel like he pitched his best, but hit balls found fielders.

Did I even watch the performance?  Yes, I did.  Thank you, though.

It doesn't matter how he felt, he was PERFECT.  You don't retire 27 straight batters with "ordinary" stuff.  So yes, the fact that 27 batters came up, and 27 batters got out is enough to refute the idea that his stuff was "ordinary" to me, especially when the only defensive play that sticks out was Wise's catch.  It's not like there were 27 diving catches, it was pretty much 26 routine outs and 1 ridiculous catch.  There's nothing "ordinary" about a perfect game.

I do think it's pretty cute that you came to your buddies defense there though...

And of course Cubs fans just can't let a White Sox player get his moment of glory.  He throws a perfect game, and of course the conversation turns into "Kerry Woods feat years ago was more impressive" that same day.  Don't let the Sox steal the show!

This isn't about Cubs Sox wadesworld. Unlike the Brewers, I respect the Sox. The tribune interviewed Cubs fans and the vast majority were happy for Buehrle. They threw some jabs in but they were happy for him. And for the record a sportsblog in Chicago started the debate.   

No one said a perfect game is ordinary. His stuff was ordinary.  Some fans have argued that the reason it's remarkable is because his stuff was ordinary. Somehow Buerhle threw more pitches than Wood did.

If it makes your fragile Brewer fan psyche feel better I believe Sheets' 18 K game was more impressive as well.

Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 29, 2009, 07:04:10 AMIf it makes your fragile Brewer fan psyche feel better I believe Sheets' 18 K game was more impressive as well.

HAHA!  Hilarious!  I actually care more about the fact that ptm somehow (thinks he) knows what I do, including whether or not I watched Buehrle pitch that game.  I think that's kind of weird...

Quote from: wadesworld on July 29, 2009, 08:47:05 AM
HAHA!  Hilarious!  I actually care more about the fact that ptm somehow (thinks he) knows what I do, including whether or not I watched Buehrle pitch that game.  I think that's kind of weird...

You didn't watch it. Don't say you did, it's painfully obvious that when you say Buerhle was 'impressive' that you didn't watch the game. There isn't a sports talk show in Chicago that will call his pitches impressive that day. The feat is impressive, but he wasn't fooling hitters, he wasn't blanking them out with a nasty strike, he was merely making his pitches.

However, I won't hold it against you if just watching regular Buerhle impresses you considering what you are used to watching for starting pitching.

Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 29, 2009, 07:04:10 AM

And for the record a sportsblog in Chicago started the debate.   

To be fair, it is David Kaplan's sportsblog.  He is one of the biggest Cub fans out there.  He professes it almost every night on Tribune Live on Comcast Sports Net.

Yes, he's a Cubs fan but he is very unbiased.  He is constantly critizing the Cubs, even during their 97 win season last year.

Quote from: TallTitan34 on July 29, 2009, 11:58:28 AM
Yes, he's a Cubs fan but he is very unbiased.  He is constantly critizing the Cubs, even during their 97 win season last year.

You are correct, he rips them when they deserve it.  Very unbiased, reason I like the guy.

For clarity, Berhle did get rocked last night for 5 runs in 6 innings last night....right?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 29, 2009, 01:47:32 PM
For clarity, Berhle did get rocked last night for 5 runs in 6 innings last night....right?

Yes and no.

First, Scott Podsednik blew an easy catch that turned into a Joe Mauer RBI double. Then, Chris Getz cost the Sox four runs in the seventh when he went the wrong way on a potential double-play ball. Looked like Getz learned to read plays from Devin Hester and Podsednik had Rashied Davis' hands. Fun team.

Sox broadcaster Hawk Harrelson after Buehrle was taken out: "Last night, we had three errors cost us two runs. Tonight we had two misplays that cost us four runs. This is one of the times I wish I could cuss." This is one time I wish the general manager was a pitcher because nobody would appreciate defense more and a pitcher-turn d-GM would do something about it.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/rosenblog/2009/07/sox-defense-embarrassing-not-to-mention-redundant-and-an-oxymoron.html

That's kind of what gets back to the original question....you can pitch pretty well but give up a lot of hits and runs....you can pitch average or "ordinary" and get a no hitter.  So much of it is dependent on luck, your defense, etc.

But striking 20 guys out....that's just the pitcher vs hitters mano y mano.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 29, 2009, 04:25:31 PM
That's kind of what gets back to the original question....you can pitch pretty well but give up a lot of hits and runs....you can pitch average or "ordinary" and get a no hitter.  So much of it is dependent on luck, your defense, etc.

But striking 20 guys out....that's just the pitcher vs hitters mano y mano.

I know what you are saying.  I was responding to your notion that he got rocked last night.  The Sox defense is horrible inside that sorry excuse for a baseball field.  4 more games and good riddance.

Quote from: marqptm on July 29, 2009, 09:27:03 AMYou didn't watch it. Don't say you did, it's painfully obvious that when you say Buerhle was 'impressive' that you didn't watch the game. There isn't a sports talk show in Chicago that will call his pitches impressive that day. The feat is impressive, but he wasn't fooling hitters, he wasn't blanking them out with a nasty strike, he was merely making his pitches.

However, I won't hold it against you if just watching regular Buerhle impresses you considering what you are used to watching for starting pitching.

Ok you are right, you know that I did not watch it.  Could you please tell me what I was doing then?

Quote from: SaintPaulWarrior on July 29, 2009, 04:36:26 PM
I know what you are saying.  I was responding to your notion that he got rocked last night.  The Sox defense is horrible inside that sorry excuse for a baseball field.  4 more games and good riddance.

Agreed