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MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: CrackedSidewalksSays on May 20, 2009, 08:00:04 AM

Title: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 2000s
Post by: CrackedSidewalksSays on May 20, 2009, 08:00:04 AM
A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 2000s

Written by: noreply@blogger.com (bma725)

We're back today with Part Three in our series, this time with a look at what most would call the "Tom Crean  (http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/tom_crean)Era". Yes, Buzz Williams  (http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/buzz_williams)has been the coach for the final two recruiting classes of the decade, but as I will explain later on, those particular players will not factor in to this analysis.

Coach Crean was here longer than any coach since Al McGuire (http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/al_mcguire), and he achieved more success than any since Al, bringing Marquette to the school's first Final Four (http://wiki.muscoop.com/doku.php/men_s_basketball/2002) since winning it all back in 1977. There's been a lot of debate about his recruiting through the years, and whether or not he was able to recruit at the level many people thought he should. You'll have to see if the myths about his recruiting actually hold up as you read the article....and for those who missed the previous installments you can find them here  (http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2009/05/look-back-marquettes-history-with-top.html)and here (http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2009/05/look-back-marquettes-history-with-top_15.html).

As always, a few notes before we get to the actual rankings:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5GvDUFklt88/ShNQSRjusFI/AAAAAAAAACE/2YqP1yeQmvI/s400/2000s.JPG)
 (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5GvDUFklt88/ShNQSRjusFI/AAAAAAAAACE/2YqP1yeQmvI/s1600-h/2000s.JPG)


(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5GvDUFklt88/ShNREc-lXpI/AAAAAAAAACM/8jvXRt1jRe4/s400/0708.JPG)
 (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5GvDUFklt88/ShNREc-lXpI/AAAAAAAAACM/8jvXRt1jRe4/s1600-h/0708.JPG)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5GvDUFklt88/ShNSLZPIZjI/AAAAAAAAACU/HpO2ZcNjUTA/s400/2009.JPG)
 (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5GvDUFklt88/ShNSLZPIZjI/AAAAAAAAACU/HpO2ZcNjUTA/s1600-h/2009.JPG) With that out of the way, here are Marquette's Top 100 players in the 2000s, or more specifically from 2000-2006. Click for a better view.


(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5GvDUFklt88/ShNTdvLNdvI/AAAAAAAAACc/Sw3TH9Zm_mc/s400/2000s.JPG)
 (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5GvDUFklt88/ShNTdvLNdvI/AAAAAAAAACc/Sw3TH9Zm_mc/s1600-h/2000s.JPG)At a glance you can tell that this is quite a few more "Top 100" recruits than in the past. In seven recruiting classes, there are a total of 20 recruits that were ranked, compared to 14 in the 1990s and 12 in the 1980s. The number is a bit inflated due to the inclusion of the JUCO rankings, but even if you take them out there are still more players in seven recruiting classes than there were in either of the previous two decades. Further, if you include the players that will not be evaluated, that number jumps even higher. We'll have to see how these players did in comparison to those that came before.

The Hits(Chronological Order)
The Misses(Chronological Order)
So there you have it. While there were definitely more ranked players this time around, the results weren't necessarily any better. Only 10 of 20 "Top 100" recruits managed to live up to the hype that preceded them, for a success rate of 50%. That brings the cumulative rate down just a bit to 68.5%. If I change my mind and include Ron Howard as a hit, that brings the rates up to 55% for this period and 71.4% for the three decades....but I'm not promising I'll do that yet.

Keep in mind though, that we're really only looking at 7 years worth of data right now. If Trevor Mbakwe turns into a stud at Minnesota, if Jimmy Butler develops like we think he will, if the incoming freshman live up to their potential, this could all change greatly.

Stay tuned for Part Four coming in a few days, where we break down the numbers a bit more, and include a player or two that might have been missed the first go round.

http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2009/05/look-back-marquettes-history-with-top_20.html
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: Nukem2 on May 20, 2009, 09:51:34 AM
Barro was never ranked high enough to be a "miss" especially since he really never had a high school career.  Yes, we may have hoped for more; but, even TC said he was project in the making.  Ooze may have had some high ranking early on but that was hype more than "fact". As for Marshall Williams, we never knew him as the time between his transfer announcement and his decision to go to Vincennes was a hiccup.  Yes he was a loser; but he was NC State's loser. For different reasons, neither of these guys should be on this list.
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: bma725 on May 20, 2009, 10:18:46 AM
Quote from: Nukem2 on May 20, 2009, 09:51:34 AM
Barro was never ranked high enough to be a "miss" especially since he really never had a high school career.  Yes, we may have hoped for more; but, even TC said he was project in the making.  Ooze may have had some high ranking early on but that was hype more than "fact". As for Marshall Williams, we never knew him as the time between his transfer announcement and his decision to go to Vincennes was a hiccup.  Yes he was a loser; but he was NC State's loser. For different reasons, neither of these guys should be on this list.

You might want to look again at how well thought of Barro was by multiple sources.  HoopScoop had him in their Top 100 when they thought he was a HS player in the class of 2003, and when he "reclassified" to 2004 he became one of their top prep players.  He ended up being in their Top 40 of all incoming players.  That's highly ranked enough to be a miss.  Further it wasn't early on as you describe it, the ranking was published right before he headed to MU,  prior to that he'd be considered one of the top 70 but not top 40.  And it wasn't just them.  Scout had him in their top 100 early on, and he finished just outside of it with a ranking as the #17 Center in the class. 

As for Williams, it may have been a hiccup, but it happened, just like Alton Mason attended but never played a game.

Having said that, I still think you're not getting it.  Whether or not a player deserved the ranking they got, or their ranking was based on misdirected hype isn't the issue.  I'm not counting the players as a failure for Marquette or the coaches or themselves, but rather as a mark on the recruiting analysts.

If you rate a guy among the top 40 incoming players in a class and he doesn't contribute quite a bit right away, either you screwed up or the class itself is poor on an epic level.  That's what I'm trying to say.

You still seem to be taking this as some sort of shot against the players or the coaches, which it isn't. 
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: MR.HAYWARD on May 20, 2009, 10:59:04 AM
BMA....I have no problem with the BArro miss, while he did not play HS he did have some hype and therefore rankings from his AAu exposure.  he would have benefitted immensely from a redshirt year but when you are the only big on campus and the team is short players we never had that luxury.  rated a miss or a hit he definitely qulaifiies as a player to judge.

Now with Ron Howard...how you can possibly rate a guy that averages double digits at a D1 school a miss i will never know.  Not to mention he was borderline top 100 anyway.  A hit in every sense of the word.  1000 point scorer in D1 should be a hit.

Lastly, to rate Lott and Kinsella top 100 players is crazy, these are guys who were honorable mention All State players in HS.  These are guys who were honorable mention All-Americans at the lowest rungs of DII JUCO ball.  to compare them as All-americans to a guy Like Buycks as a Juco all american is comapring apples to oranges. 
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: bma725 on May 20, 2009, 11:40:18 AM
You've got your facts mixed up.  Lott played in Division I in the NCJAA and he was a 2nd Team All American, not honorable mention.  Kinsella played Division III, but he was a 1st Team All American, not honorable mention.

Ron Howard came close to scoring 1000 points, but didn't quite make it.  As I said he had a good final two years at Valpo, but his redshirt sophomore year he was a bench player that averaged only 5.8 PPG and 1.4 APG and his year at Marquette he scored a total of 16 points. 

Plus, the Summit League wasn't exactly a high quality confrence at the time Howard was in the league, in fact calling them a mid major back then doesn't fit.  They were a low major.  The best seed that any team from the league got in the NCAA tournament during Howard's time was a 15 seed in 2004.  Twice they had 16 seeds including once in the play in game.  It's not as if he was putting up those numbers in a major conference, or even in one of the better mid majors like Odartey did.

Given the hype that comes with being a Top 100 recruit, you would think he would be able to dominate that level of competition, but he didn't.  He wasn't even the best player on his own team in any of his three years at Valpo.
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: Nukem2 on May 20, 2009, 01:11:00 PM
Quote from: bma725 on May 20, 2009, 10:18:46 AM
You might want to look again at how well thought of Barro was by multiple sources.  HoopScoop had him in their Top 100 when they thought he was a HS player in the class of 2003, and when he "reclassified" to 2004 he became one of their top prep players.  He ended up being in their Top 40 of all incoming players.  That's highly ranked enough to be a miss.  Further it wasn't early on as you describe it, the ranking was published right before he headed to MU,  prior to that he'd be considered one of the top 70 but not top 40.  And it wasn't just them.  Scout had him in their top 100 early on, and he finished just outside of it with a ranking as the #17 Center in the class. 

As for Williams, it may have been a hiccup, but it happened, just like Alton Mason attended but never played a game.

Having said that, I still think you're not getting it.  Whether or not a player deserved the ranking they got, or their ranking was based on misdirected hype isn't the issue.  I'm not counting the players as a failure for Marquette or the coaches or themselves, but rather as a mark on the recruiting analysts.

If you rate a guy among the top 40 incoming players in a class and he doesn't contribute quite a bit right away, either you screwed up or the class itself is poor on an epic level.  That's what I'm trying to say.

You still seem to be taking this as some sort of shot against the players or the coaches, which it isn't. 
Barro was pretty much gone from the recruiting lists by the time he was a senior.  Last I saw was a 180s and a low 200s.  Even TC said he was a pretty much a project.  Also, his numbers are not that bad when you discount his wasted frosh season.  Defense was pretty good as well.  I still don't classify him as a miss.

As for Williams, he may have attended a summer class for a couple days (I'm not so sure of that either); but, he was never on campus in August.  In essence, he was never "here".  Mason was here for a semester while was here, was he not? He is NC State's miss. 
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: bma725 on May 20, 2009, 01:55:24 PM
Quote from: Nukem2 on May 20, 2009, 01:11:00 PM
Barro was pretty much gone from the recruiting lists by the time he was a senior.  Last I saw was a 180s and a low 200s.  Even TC said he was a pretty much a project.  Also, his numbers are not that bad when you discount his wasted frosh season.  Defense was pretty good as well.  I still don't classify him as a miss.

As for Williams, he may have attended a summer class for a couple days (I'm not so sure of that either); but, he was never on campus in August.  In essence, he was never "here".  Mason was here for a semester while was here, was he not? He is NC State's miss. 

Again, HoopScoop rated him in the Top 40 when they did the recruiting class rankings following his senior year.  They had both Barro and Kinsella as "8 Point" players which in that system translates to someone in the 11-40 ranking area.  We're not talking about him being a consensus player, we're talking about him making one ranking.  I can't access the link from work but I'll be happy to provide it for you when I get home tonight so you can take a look.

Anyway, ignore for a second that we're talking about Barro and the specifics that go along with his particular case, and just think about a generic player ranked in the top 40, possibly as high as 11th in his particular class that had the same level of production he did.  Would you say the normal expectations for a player of that supposed caliber would include averaging 5.2PPG and 4.5RPG during their four year career?  Would you say it's normal for a player ranked that highly to never average in double figures in any category for their entire career?  If the answer to those questions is no, then Barro must be classified as a miss.  It's nothing against him, Clark Francis was the one that screwed up by ranking him that highly given his background.

As For Williams, the attendance thing came from a MJS reporter and was even mentioned on the other board a year or more ago.  Having said that, I don't think being a miss means he's just a miss for NC State.  To me, if you attend multiple schools, the only way you are a miss at one and not the others is if you actually perform well at the other schools.  So IMO, he was a miss at NC State, a miss at Marquette, a miss at UWGB etc.
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: MR.HAYWARD on May 20, 2009, 03:14:18 PM
Given the hype that comes with being a Top 100 recruit, you would think he would be able to dominate that level of competition, but he didn't.  He wasn't even the best player on his own team in any of his three years at Valpo.

Well in that regard then we are nitpicking on top 100 kids.  MAybe a chart using only rsci or in other words concensus top 100 kids would be more appropriate.  guys like Dj, Wes, Mcneal, maymon, Meriit, etc.  I think are the guys this board refers to as top 100 kids and guys that I have referred to in the past.  In the past i have said "how many top 100 guys did not score 1000?"  or "all of our recent 1000 point guys are top 100 kids" 

I sure as heck wasnt referring to guys that were rated #100 in one poll or guys like Bell or Barro that were rated as Juniors but not as Seniors or sure as hell not guys like Kinsella or Lott.  being rated in one of many lists could be a misprint.  Being rsci top 100 is a whole other animal.
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: Nukem2 on May 20, 2009, 04:13:58 PM
Quote from: bma725 on May 20, 2009, 01:55:24 PM
Again, HoopScoop rated him in the Top 40 when they did the recruiting class rankings following his senior year.  They had both Barro and Kinsella as "8 Point" players which in that system translates to someone in the 11-40 ranking area.  We're not talking about him being a consensus player, we're talking about him making one ranking.  I can't access the link from work but I'll be happy to provide it for you when I get home tonight so you can take a look.

Anyway, ignore for a second that we're talking about Barro and the specifics that go along with his particular case, and just think about a generic player ranked in the top 40, possibly as high as 11th in his particular class that had the same level of production he did.  Would you say the normal expectations for a player of that supposed caliber would include averaging 5.2PPG and 4.5RPG during their four year career?  Would you say it's normal for a player ranked that highly to never average in double figures in any category for their entire career?  If the answer to those questions is no, then Barro must be classified as a miss.  It's nothing against him, Clark Francis was the one that screwed up by ranking him that highly given his background.

As For Williams, the attendance thing came from a MJS reporter and was even mentioned on the other board a year or more ago.  Having said that, I don't think being a miss means he's just a miss for NC State.  To me, if you attend multiple schools, the only way you are a miss at one and not the others is if you actually perform well at the other schools.  So IMO, he was a miss at NC State, a miss at Marquette, a miss at UWGB etc.
I don't recall Hoop Scoop having Ooze in the Top 40 following his senior season.  If they did, it was certainly an outlying ranking.  No one else had him any where near th Top 100.  Look at Mbao this year.  We've read that he is well ahead of Barro at this point in their careers and he (Mbao) is not in any top 100s.  So, it Mbao gets his eligibilty and (theoretically) flames out, would he be considered a miss?  I don't think so.  Don't want to belabor this, but you're criteria need to be honed.   As for  Williams, he just really never was here.  Certainly he would not be counted for APR purposes (whereas, Alton Mason would have if APR had existed then).
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: bilsu on May 20, 2009, 05:11:51 PM
My memory is by the end of his sophomore year Mason was sitting on the bench. Seemed like Crean was through with him when he did not get off a potential game winning shot against a team (S. Miss?) and we lost. He monoploized the ball and did not get a shot off. Crean was always a poor loser. I sure if you check his minutes they were way down the last few games.
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits..
Post by: bma725 on May 20, 2009, 07:55:13 PM
Quote from: Nukem2 on May 20, 2009, 04:13:58 PM
I don't recall Hoop Scoop having Ooze in the Top 40 following his senior season.  If they did, it was certainly an outlying ranking.  No one else had him any where near th Top 100.  Look at Mbao this year.  We've read that he is well ahead of Barro at this point in their careers and he (Mbao) is not in any top 100s.  So, it Mbao gets his eligibilty and (theoretically) flames out, would he be considered a miss?  I don't think so.  Don't want to belabor this, but you're criteria need to be honed.   As for  Williams, he just really never was here.  Certainly he would not be counted for APR purposes (whereas, Alton Mason would have if APR had existed then).

Here you go:  http://www.hoopscooponline.com/members/toprecruitingclassestodateclass2004.html

That's from June 2004, when Ooze had completed his senior season.  Francis has him as an 8 point player, which according to his definition is a player ranked between 11-40 in the incoming class regardless of whether they were a HS, Prep or JUCO player. 

Again you just aren't understanding what I'm saying.  The player himself is not a miss, the recruiting analyst missed on the player.  There's a difference there that you just can't seem to grasp.  Mbao isn't ranked at this point and thus there are very low expectations, so it would be nearly impossible for him to be a miss.  If someone out there ranked Mbao similar to how Francis had ranked Barro and he didn't put up the numbers to back up that ranking then it would be classified as a miss by the so called recruiting "expert".  The fact that Barro wasn't eligible at Julian and barely played AAU ball is irrelevant to whether or not that particular analyst missed him.  They saw fit to consider him among the 40 best players in that class, and he didn't put up those sort of results.  The circumstances that contribute to that really don't matter when looking at whether or not the analyst got their prediction right unless it was a catastrophic injury that prevented him from playing.
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits..
Post by: Nukem2 on May 20, 2009, 09:33:11 PM
Quote from: bma725 on May 20, 2009, 07:55:13 PM
Here you go:  http://www.hoopscooponline.com/members/toprecruitingclassestodateclass2004.html

That's from June 2004, when Ooze had completed his senior season.  Francis has him as an 8 point player, which according to his definition is a player ranked between 11-40 in the incoming class regardless of whether they were a HS, Prep or JUCO player. 

Again you just aren't understanding what I'm saying.  The player himself is not a miss, the recruiting analyst missed on the player.  There's a difference there that you just can't seem to grasp.  Mbao isn't ranked at this point and thus there are very low expectations, so it would be nearly impossible for him to be a miss.  If someone out there ranked Mbao similar to how Francis had ranked Barro and he didn't put up the numbers to back up that ranking then it would be classified as a miss by the so called recruiting "expert".  The fact that Barro wasn't eligible at Julian and barely played AAU ball is irrelevant to whether or not that particular analyst missed him.  They saw fit to consider him among the 40 best players in that class, and he didn't put up those sort of results.  The circumstances that contribute to that really don't matter when looking at whether or not the analyst got their prediction right unless it was a catastrophic injury that prevented him from playing.
I think you ae missing the point.  Barro was not broadly rated as a senior coming out of Julian.  Hoopscoop was the only one that had him in or anywhere near the Top 100.  You need to use the RSCI rankings to get a better base for your analysis.  But, its your analysis, so do whatever you wish.  End of my commentary.
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits..
Post by: bma725 on May 20, 2009, 10:19:43 PM
Quote from: Nukem2 on May 20, 2009, 09:33:11 PM
I think you ae missing the point.  Barro was not broadly rated as a senior coming out of Julian.  Hoopscoop was the only one that had him in or anywhere near the Top 100.  You need to use the RSCI rankings to get a better base for your analysis.  But, its your analysis, so do whatever you wish.  End of my commentary.

No, you are the one missing the point.  I'm not looking at whether the consensus rankings got it right, that's a near impossibility given the available data for the 1980s and 1990s.  To level the playing field, you have to look at all the rankings, not just the RSCI otherwise there are only 10 available years of data and you leave out several players that made Top 100 lists. 

What the other services rated Barro is not a concern when looking at whether or not HoopScoop hit or missed when they evaluated him as a senior.
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits..
Post by: Nukem2 on May 21, 2009, 09:27:31 AM
Quote from: bma725 on May 20, 2009, 10:19:43 PM
No, you are the one missing the point.  I'm not looking at whether the consensus rankings got it right, that's a near impossibility given the available data for the 1980s and 1990s.  To level the playing field, you have to look at all the rankings, not just the RSCI otherwise there are only 10 available years of data and you leave out several players that made Top 100 lists. 

What the other services rated Barro is not a concern when looking at whether or not HoopScoop hit or missed when they evaluated him as a senior.
Whatever.  As I said, its your analysis and your ball.  BTW, Marshall Williams simply was never a full-time student-athlete at MU.  From that perspective, he is no different than Tyshawn Taylor or Nick Williams.  As Buzz williams commented recently when talking about the incoming recruits, anyone can attend summer sessions.
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: MR.HAYWARD on May 21, 2009, 12:06:32 PM
I completely agree with Nukem.  I dont think it makes sense to judge a player and his success as a hit or miss as a "top 100 player" if he makes only one list.  BMA you refer to the "hype" of a top 100 player.  I recall no hype surrounding Kinsella, Bell, Lott, or Ooze.  In fact i remeber reading articles where "gurus" frankly could not understand the Kinsella recruitment etc.  A player can be seen one time and have a good game and make a top 100 list or something but to be a concensus rsci player you have to admit is completely different. 

I realize the rsci is relatively new but it can be eaasily simulated, if nothing else a standard of 2 or 3 minimum top 100 lists to qulaify as a true top 100 talent elimintaes all the guys who really in no way shape or form were "top 100" guys.

Honestly, your criteria fro top 100 guys smacks right out of the Tom Crean school of self hype...in the sense that i am sure somewhere he has a list of all the top 100 kids he has signed and kinsella and Lott are right up there!  but cut thru the BS and i beleive your list will show concensus top 100 kids get it done.  I beleive the discussion of that over the last months is what spurned this whole review?  Again name th last non concensus top 100 kid to score 1000 points?  The rankings are pretty good name the last non top 100 kid to be a big time contributor or look at how few consensus top 100 busts we have had ...very few! 
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: mu_hilltopper on May 21, 2009, 12:10:55 PM
Jesus, you guys.  Take the ratings for what they are worth in your own minds.

If they are on a list, they are on a list.
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: bma725 on May 21, 2009, 12:44:30 PM
For the love of god it had nothing to do with Tom Crean.  It had to do with the fact that there were no consensus rankings available for the period from 1980-1998, and despite what you think they cannot be easily simulated because just finding all the information needed to come up with a consensus ranking from that period is not only time consuming, it's nearly impossible.

Further, the whole reason not to use the consensus rankings is proven by your 1000 point argument.

None of the players listed below were consensus Top 100 players, yet all scored well over 1000 points.  The RSCI has been available since 1998, and none of the four players listed below made it during that time, yet they all scored well over 1000 points.  I realize Wardle was class of 1997, but he only made the one ranking as well, not consensus. 

Lazar Hayward - 1240...and counting
Dwyane Wade - 1281
Odartey Blankson - 1087
Cordell Henry - 1347
Brian Wardle - 1690

And don't give me the BS argument about how Hayward and Wade should have made it because they made multiple lists, players made the RSCI Top 100 all the time without being ranked by everyone.  They didn't do enough to get a consensus among the experts and qualify for the ranking.  Either you are a consensus player top 100 player or you aren't.  They weren't. 
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: dsfire on May 21, 2009, 04:00:50 PM
What will Butler have to do over the next couple of years in order to qualify as a hit?  I'll admit that I was surprised to see that HoopScoop had put him in the 41-70 range, as I thought he'd been an and-1 from Fulce's recruitment after spots opened up following Crean's departure (similar to the McNeal-Acker connection, minus the transfer).

From that impression I felt that two more years like this year being a solid 6th man would make him a success, but looking at who else falls in that 41-70 group indicates he should be starting at some point.  I have to wonder if HoopScoop may bump up jucos based upon their experience and perhaps a higher ranking for, say, a 2-year juco over a high school senior means the juco will be more valuable if you looked at both for the next 2 years, but not necessarily if you compared the juco's 2 to the high schooler's 4.
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: Canned Goods n Ammo on May 21, 2009, 04:32:16 PM
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on May 21, 2009, 12:10:55 PM
Jesus, you guys.  Take the ratings for what they are worth in your own minds.

If they are on a list, they are on a list.

Wrong again.

They are on he TOM CREAN list, not on any of the national lists.
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: MR.HAYWARD on May 21, 2009, 06:42:12 PM
"And don't give me the BS argument about how Hayward and Wade should have made it because they made multiple lists, players made the RSCI Top 100 all the time without being ranked by everyone.  They didn't do enough to get a consensus among the experts and qualify for the ranking.  Either you are a consensus player top 100 player or you aren't.  They weren't."

apparently you did not comprehend my post...I said forget the rsci, that making 2 or more lists would be enough.  The fact that guys like Kinsella, and Lott and others who were honorable mention all-state HS player are considered top 100 guys becuase they made on list is simply ludicrous.  Dwade making two top 50 lists is a completely different situation, Hayward missing many lists becuase they do not include Prep players is a whole other deal.  Wardle made a few lists as did cordell 

Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: Ready2Fly on May 22, 2009, 10:00:39 AM
What I gather from this breakdown is that Hoopscoop is wildly inaccurate in their ratings, not that bma is being mean to the players by calling them a miss.  Barro was not a miss, Hoopscoop missed on Barro by rating him so high.
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: Nukem2 on May 22, 2009, 10:31:13 AM
Quote from: Ready2Fly on May 22, 2009, 10:00:39 AM
What I gather from this breakdown is that Hoopscoop is wildly inaccurate in their ratings, not that bma is being mean to the players by calling them a miss.  Barro was not a miss, Hoopscoop missed on Barro by rating him so high.
BMA, when did Hoopscoop rate Barro in its Top 40?  Must have been early, because Oooze did not play HS ball and sat out.  Hard to rank someone top 40 when they are out of view.  Agree with Ready2Fly.
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: MR.HAYWARD on May 22, 2009, 11:05:14 AM
nukem....

Ooze not playing HS basketball has absolutely nothing to do with making a list or not.  These kids are rarely if ever seen playing in HS games.  It would be nearly impossible to see all these kids in HS games anyway simply not enough days in the year.  Also, watching akid in a HS game is a waste of time.  What good does it do to watch a D! prospect light up 5 kids that will not play basketball after hS for 30 or more points ..man among boys situation?  IIRC CAron Bradley played 1 year of HS ball, maybe none? He made his name on the AAu circui.   Wish we had buzz back in those days.

Where you can really see how good a kid is at AAu type tourneys where  there are 10 college prospects on the court and how they fare and how they fare against each other and that type of competiton.  Additonally, a "guru" can go to a AAu tourney at Atlanta, boo williams, Spiece Run and Slam or where ever and literally see 50 or more Top 100 calibe rplayers and hundreds of other D1, DII, and DIII propspects.   Perfect example to a much lower level is Mark Millers write up on the Wisco stae AAu championships.  He was able to see all the the best players in the state go head to head over a weekend.  Something he could never have the time or money to go see them individually in HS games and what type of assemsnet do you get when they score 40 agaisnt 5 HS kids that will be working on a dairy farm after they graduate?
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: Nukem2 on May 22, 2009, 11:54:10 AM
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on May 22, 2009, 11:05:14 AM
nukem....

Ooze not playing HS basketball has absolutely nothing to do with making a list or not.  These kids are rarely if ever seen playing in HS games.  It would be nearly impossible to see all these kids in HS games anyway simply not enough days in the year.  Also, watching akid in a HS game is a waste of time.  What good does it do to watch a D! prospect light up 5 kids that will not play basketball after hS for 30 or more points ..man among boys situation?  IIRC CAron Bradley played 1 year of HS ball, maybe none? He made his name on the AAu circui.   Wish we had buzz back in those days.

Where you can really see how good a kid is at AAu type tourneys where  there are 10 college prospects on the court and how they fare and how they fare against each other and that type of competiton.  Additonally, a "guru" can go to a AAu tourney at Atlanta, boo williams, Spiece Run and Slam or where ever and literally see 50 or more Top 100 calibe rplayers and hundreds of other D1, DII, and DIII propspects.   Perfect example to a much lower level is Mark Millers write up on the Wisco stae AAu championships.  He was able to see all the the best players in the state go head to head over a weekend.  Something he could never have the time or money to go see them individually in HS games and what type of assemsnet do you get when they score 40 agaisnt 5 HS kids that will be working on a dairy farm after they graduate?
Totally understand that.
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: VegasWarrior77 on May 22, 2009, 10:04:24 PM
Quote from: Ready2Fly on May 22, 2009, 10:00:39 AM
What I gather from this breakdown is that Hoopscoop is wildly inaccurate in their ratings.

+1

Unfortunately, this is the service that has us ranked as having the best recruiting class for 2009!
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits..
Post by: bma725 on May 22, 2009, 10:30:11 PM
Quote from: Nukem2 on May 22, 2009, 10:31:13 AM
BMA, when did Hoopscoop rate Barro in its Top 40?  Must have been early, because Oooze did not play HS ball and sat out.  Hard to rank someone top 40 when they are out of view.  Agree with Ready2Fly.

Not sure what you mean by when, but it wasn't a ranking that they put up early and then stuck with if that's what you're talking about.  They saw him a couple of times in AAU tournaments in both 2002 and 2003, and his ranking changed a few times in 2002, 2003 and 2004. 

They have mentions of seeing Barro during the summer of 2002 at the Nike All American camp, and at that time they put him in their Top 100 for the Class of 2003 somewhere in the 80-90 range after calling him one of the best players at a camp loaded with top 100 prospects. 

The next time they saw him was during the summer of 2003 at the Five Star Camp, at which point they called him one of the top players in the camp...and that included guys like Drew Neitzel, Taurean Green, AJ Price, Dorrell Wright, Kyle Lowry, Sean Singletary, Russell Robinson, JR Smith, Goran Suton etc.  They also mentioned seeing him at another AAU event in late summer as well.  When that happened, they moved him from the 2003 class to the 2004 class and began ranking him on the edge of the Top 10 for 5th year players and he finished ranked 12th.  That particular ranking wasn't early, it came out June 29th 2004.

As far as the Top 40 ranking, the first mention of that came in their "Top Recruiting Classes to Date" which came out right after he committed in December 2003.  He was in their top 40 at that point, and stayed in their top 40 when the published their Final Ranking for the Class of 2004, which came out June 30th 2004.
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: MilWarrior on May 22, 2009, 11:37:29 PM
Wow. Obviously bma put quite a bit of time into this analysis. Way to piss all over his hard work. Ease up once in awhile.
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: MR.HAYWARD on May 23, 2009, 11:40:25 AM
oops i meant caron butler....not karon bradley
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: Nukem2 on May 23, 2009, 01:03:08 PM
Quote from: MilWarrior on May 22, 2009, 11:37:29 PM
Wow. Obviously bma put quite a bit of time into this analysis. Way to piss all over his hard work. Ease up once in awhile.
Kudos to "bma" for a fine series of blogs on MU recruiting.  Some of us are just not in agreement with some of his points.  Makes for discussion on a message board during a quiet news period.  Nothing negative intedned.  We can't all agree on everything all of the time...???
Title: Re: [Cracked Sidewalks] A look back, Marquette's history with Top 100 recruits...Part Three, the 200
Post by: Tugg Speedman on May 24, 2009, 07:30:51 AM
In other posts (and one good one by BMA) it has been noted what a crap shoot these rankings are.  Look no further than this list.  Who was the highest MU recruit this decade?  Answer Terry Sanders at #22. 
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