MUScoop

BadgerFran has weighed in.....hold the phones


"It's just a little amazing how radically the recruiting philosophy has changed at Marquette since the days of Kevin O'Neill, and even somewhat since Crean's departure.  If you described the new Marquette recruits not by name and without saying what school they had committed to, but by provenance (jucos, some with past qualification issues; foreign players attending notorious diploma mills with odd financial structures whose enrollments almost exactly match the size of their basketball teams; American players who have jumped from high school to high school to "prep" school; high school players struggling to qualify) you'd think you were hearing about Memphis or Connecticut or some other program that everyone in the country disdains but also knows the NCAA doesn't have the gumption to really do anything about.  Even the most rabid MU partisans must see that.  Even  housepet beat reporters must see that.

There are certain to be good kids in this group of MU commitments -- but the overall aroma of the recruiting approach is, to put it mildly, a little off.   It seems like Marquette has made a judgment that its path to competitiveness needs to move in a very different direction from conventional recruiting.  The days of recruiting solid students from midwest high schools -- think McNeal, Matthews, James, Diener, Novak -- appear to be over. 

Or maybe Buzz has nobly created an island of lost toys -- a place where warm-weather kids who have been misunderstood or disadvantaged or lost in the conventional academic system (and who happen to be able to go to their left and stroke the j) can thrive in the tender arms of a mid-sized, basketball mad religious college in a cold northern city.  Strangers in a strange land, to be sure, but maybe it will work.  I'm not being entirely sarcastic.  Buzz comes from a sort of "wild west" basketball background that's all about jucos and transfers and getting a kid in even if by the skin of his teeth, and figuring the kid would be better off for the opportunity.  Some will be.

I'm sure it won't matter to the majority of the MU basketball fanbase how it looks to the rest of the world as long as Buzz achieves Memphis or UConn like results.  It never does, unfortunately, to any fanbase.  And he might; coaching goes a long way in college hoops, but talent goes even further. 

But if he doesn't, and if he maintains this recruiting approach, it will get interesting.  Surely some powerful people at MU still tend to have a more traditional view as to what the University stands for.  Especially if the wins don't come, or at least enough of them.

It's a heck of a gamble and I hope it works out for my long suffering MU friends.  (That's a topic for another day; MU has had a perfectly respectable basketball program in terms of results for the last twenty years, but their burden is that they can't forget the 70s, which will never come back.  The suffering is self-imposed.)"

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 28, 2009, 03:36:31 PM
BadgerFran has weighed in.....hold the phones


  If you described the new Marquette recruits not by name and without saying what school they had committed to, but by provenance (jucos, some with past qualification issues; foreign players attending notorious diploma mills with odd financial structures whose enrollments almost exactly match the size of their basketball teams; American players who have jumped from high school to high school to "prep" school; high school players struggling to qualify)

He's right! If you ignore the individual stories and boil everything down to the most negative stereotypes....

Don't Hate the Player...hate the game!  ;D

While questions will be asked I'll reserve judgement until something happens. (ie devendorf incident, somebody doesn't graduate, etc)  Until then, who am I to judge?  I do sense some defensiveness developing with our furry rodent fans but that's to be expected.  I'm guessing we'll be hearing a lot of these types of excuses..."you guys only beat us cuz you've got "dirty" kids."


I also enjoyed the "not recruiting Midwest kids" comment.  Why is that so terrible?  We continue to recruit the Midwest but let's face it...just because we don't follow the UW recipe for recruits doesn't necessarily mean it's so wrong.  Much of the best talent doesnt' reside in the Midwest and the little that does wants to play for the Big 10.

Chicos, haven't you said a lot of similar things when it came to JUCO's and Stoneridge?  Maybe not the wording, but definitely the tone was there.

Strangely, that was a relatively unbiased post by Fran.  It wasn't seething like some of his posts.  Maybe I am just getting more cynical as I age, so his posts seem toned down now.

I cannot disagree with his post in total.  He didn't make direct accusations.  He just said something doesn't "smell" right (I believe that was how he said it).  I am inclined to agree.  It also appears strange that we have so many JUCO's and prep schoolers.  However, if they graduate, are not arrested, and are not cancers to the team, then I cannot complain.

I have my concerns.  Hopefully, they are just that.

Quote from: Ready2Fly on April 28, 2009, 03:46:03 PM
Chicos, haven't you said a lot of similar things when it came to JUCO's and Stoneridge?  Maybe not the wording, but definitely the tone was there.

Yup...that's why I'm considering hanging myself.   ;)

QuoteOr maybe Buzz has nobly created an island of lost toys -- a place where warm-weather kids who have been misunderstood or disadvantaged or lost in the conventional academic system (and who happen to be able to go to their left and stroke the j) can thrive in the tender arms of a mid-sized, basketball mad religious college in a cold northern city.  Strangers in a strange land, to be sure, but maybe it will work.  I'm not being entirely sarcastic.  Buzz comes from a sort of "wild west" basketball background that's all about jucos and transfers and getting a kid in even if by the skin of his teeth, and figuring the kid would be better off for the opportunity.  Some will be.

oh, you mean like Al McGuire used to do?

Fran is so far off base.  How did he expect us to compete in the BE with no seniors or juniors?  Should MU just use all of its scholarships on Freshman and then graduate all 7-10 them in 4 years and start over?  What a damn fool.  JUCO players are used to fill the empty spaces that happened because of trasnfers and decommits when Crean was around/left.

Welcome to college basketball Fran, you don't get it.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 28, 2009, 03:53:23 PM
Yup...that's why I'm considering hanging myself.   ;)

Then why did you go over there under the name MUwarrior74 and say things like, "What is one supposed to do?  I have just as many concerns over Milwaukee Public Schools, if not more concerns.  If they're certified by the NCAA then they're certified by the NCAA," in response to the question, "Do you really not have any concerns regarding Stoneridge?"

It's drastically different from what you've been posting here.

This coming from the glass house that gave scholarships to Marcettus McGee and Boo Wade, had others academically ineligible for a semester, and had another collecting drinking citations like they were Miley Cyrus tickets.

The criticism is fair if they turn out to be bad citizen's or students. There is no evidence at this point to say that is the case. My guess is that the Badger team will continue to play slow down ball with less quick players. MU will play a more uptempo game with more athletic players. And guess what each team will have the same number of quality people and students.

I forgot who said it, or who I should give credit to on this (I think it was Navin), but until these kids do something bad (flunk classes, problems with the law, etc.), then they should be given every single benefit of the doubt. Nothing I've read suggests these are "bad" kids coming in. Because the "JUCO" term is hanging around their neck automatically makes these guys bad/poor kids? Give me a break.

When the season tips in November, and they have Marquette written across their chests, I don't care if they're from JUCO, Chicago, Senegal, or where ever. If they represent the university well off the court, and bust their butts on the court, they'll get my applause and support.

Quote from: MUDish on April 28, 2009, 04:10:34 PM
I forgot who said it, or who I should give credit to on this (I think it was Navin), but until these kids do something bad (flunk classes, problems with the law, etc.), then they should be given every single benefit of the doubt. Nothing I've read suggests these are "bad" kids coming in. Because the "JUCO" term is hanging around their neck automatically makes these guys bad/poor kids? Give me a break.

When the season tips in November, and they have Marquette written across their chests, I don't care if they're from JUCO, Chicago, Senegal, or where ever. If they represent the university well off the court, and bust their butts on the court, they'll get my applause and support.

Very, very, very well said.  The implication that JUCO players are stupid and don't deserve a shot at MU gets under my skin too.

Well, if they are all like Jimmy Butler then we have nothing to worry about.

I thought this was about Fran Frachilla.   I figured you'd be starting a thread about someone whose opinion actually somewhat matters.  

Quote from: MarquetteDano on April 28, 2009, 03:47:59 PM
Strangely, that was a relatively unbiased post by Fran.  It wasn't seething like some of his posts.  Maybe I am just getting more cynical as I age, so his posts seem toned down now.

I cannot disagree with his post in total.  He didn't make direct accusations.  He just said something doesn't "smell" right (I believe that was how he said it).  I am inclined to agree.  It also appears strange that we have so many JUCO's and prep schoolers.  However, if they graduate, are not arrested, and are not cancers to the team, then I cannot complain.

I have my concerns.  Hopefully, they are just that.

I agree, I mean, I don't think he's entirely correct, but he's not really ripping MU, nor is he saying Buzz isn't going to get it done. I don't think he's being complementary, but his viewpoint is pretty reasonable.

I've seen much, much worse stuff from him.

Quote from: Ready2Fly on April 28, 2009, 04:19:55 PM
Very, very, very well said.  The implication that JUCO players are stupid and don't deserve a shot at MU gets under my skin too.

I can only speak for myself, but I have never thought or implied that JUCO players are stupid.  I will also give these kids the benefit of the doubt and cheer for and support them like they were family.  But, we shouldn't kid ourselves.  Whether it's justified or not, people will view Marquette's basketball program differently if it continues to recruit heavily from JUCO and places like Stoneridge -- even if none of these kids ever has a problem.  Until I have reason to think otherwise, I'm going to assume that Buzz knows what he's doing and these are great kids who will represent Marquette well.  But, I'd be lying if I didn't say that I hope that this recruiting trend is an exception borne of necessity, and not the rule.

Quote from: StillAWarrior on April 28, 2009, 04:44:03 PM
I can only speak for myself, but I have never thought or implied that JUCO players are stupid.  I will also give these kids the benefit of the doubt and cheer for and support them like they were family.  But, we shouldn't kid ourselves.  Whether it's justified or not, people will view Marquette's basketball program differently if it continues to recruit heavily from JUCO and places like Stoneridge -- even if none of these kids ever has a problem.  Until I have reason to think otherwise, I'm going to assume that Buzz knows what he's doing and these are great kids who will represent Marquette well.  But, I'd be lying if I didn't say that I hope that this recruiting trend is an exception borne of necessity, and not the rule.

+1 

Sour grapes from someone who's team is looking less and less competitive with it's principal in-state rival.

Fran has hit the nail on the head...it's as if he's borrowing from what I've been saying for quite some time.

There has been a marked shift in philosophy here and, whether you like it or not, it's going to create a certain impression of what Marquette University is willing to do to field a winning basketball team.

One day he states he only watchs UW and UWM and doesnt really care what goes on with MU and then he posts messages like in this thread. Guess he is mixed up between the ears or concerned on how Buzz is recovering from the Crean fiasco just a year ago.  

I stand by what I think, that the scarlet letter of JUCO is unfair, and should not paint a broad stroke over these kids.

It drives me nuts that some think Marquette is on some pedestal when it comes to this program. MU's greatest player of all time was a partial qualifier. He doesn't get crucified on this board for it. Zack McCall came from a prep school and obviously had his issues while here. Should Hayward automatically be grouped in with McCall? Not to air their dirty laundry, but Brandon Bell and Jarred Lovette had their issues while they were at MU. Neither was a JUCO.

MU's graduating 4 seniors and would be extremely young next season. Bringing in a couple of athletic kids, with a year or two of JUCO under their belt and who show no personal issues that are known, is fine by me. If MU makes it to the Sweet 16 next year, are some going to have a chip on their shoulder and not accept a NCAA run because Buckys is a JUCO?

Buzz is doing what he has to do right now, and doing what he knows best. I couldn't be more intrigued by this group of JUCO and non JUCO's coming in this season. The sky (and basement) is the limit here.  For those who didn't like the way Crean did things, give Buzz a chance to do things his way.

I love Fran feigning concern for the soul of the Marquette program. His fear has nothing to do with MU resembling Memphis or UCONN off the court despite his protestations to the contrary. He sees the handwriting on the wall from a basketball standpoint and isn't happy. Just a couple of years ago he was crowing that UW ruled the state and MU had better get used to it. Now that Marquette has beaten UW twice in a row and has a top rated recruiting class on the way, Fran has to move the discussion from the court to the classroom. Anyone who couldn't see this one coming is unfamiliar with Fran's modus operandi. He is the ultimate apologist for all things UW despite his graduation from lowly UWM.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 28, 2009, 05:11:20 PM
He is the ultimate apologist for all things UW despite his graduation from lowly UWM.

He has a law degree from UW-Madison as well, plus a killer bow-tie collection.

And we should care about what this girl Fran thinks because...?

Really, who gives a crap?

I don't see much wrong with this.  Pretty much telling it like it is.

Quote from: MUshrooms on April 28, 2009, 05:25:10 PM
I don't see much wrong with this.  Pretty much telling it like it is.

+1

Ready2Fly....I would ask the caribou.

You guys are acting like Crean didn't bring in guys from JUCO and Prep School that were major academic risks.  The reality is he brought in quite a few and went after even more but couldn't land them(Takais Brown anyone?).  By my count he had three JUCO players that were academic risks(Lott, Blackledge, MJax) and six prep school players that were risk(Sanders, Townsend, Hayward, Burke, Cubillan, Saunders, Hazel).

Even a few of the high school guys had academic issues as well.  Wade was a partial qualifier.  Barro briefly attended a JUCO in Kansas trying to get a GED after being ruled ineligible in Chicago.  Mbakwe attended three different high schools and barely qualified.  Mason attended three high schools and had academic issues at both MU and LSU.  James Matthews was lucky to get into school and couldn't even stay academically eligible for a semester.  Anthony Green committed but had no chance of qualifying after high school or prep school and didn't sign an LOI.

It's not as if standards have drastically changed since last April. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 28, 2009, 03:36:31 PM
BadgerFran has weighed in.....hold the phones



It's a heck of a gamble and I hope it works out for my long suffering MU friends.  (That's a topic for another day; MU has had a perfectly respectable basketball program in terms of results for the last twenty years, but their burden is that they can't forget the 70s, which will never come back.  The suffering is self-imposed.)"[/color]

As an alum in school in the late 70's, the last two senteces ring painfully true.

Quote from: MUDish on April 28, 2009, 05:03:32 PM
Buzz is doing what he has to do right now, and doing what he knows best. I couldn't be more intrigued by this group of JUCO and non JUCO's coming in this season. The sky (and basement) is the limit here.

And my point is, I hope you're right.  I hope Buzz is just doing what he needs to do to even out the classes and get some experience on next year's team.  But the truth of the matter is we have no idea if that's case.  He may just be "doing what he has to do right now" or this may just be the way that Buzz recruits.  I hope it's the former.  Only time will tell.

Quote from: bma725 on April 28, 2009, 07:19:40 PM
You guys are acting like Crean didn't bring in guys from JUCO and Prep School that were major academic risks.  The reality is he brought in quite a few and went after even more but couldn't land them(Takais Brown anyone?).  By my count he had three JUCO players that were academic risks(Lott, Blackledge, MJax) and six prep school players that were risk(Sanders, Townsend, Hayward, Burke, Cubillan, Saunders, Hazel).

Even a few of the high school guys had academic issues as well.  Wade was a partial qualifier.  Barro briefly attended a JUCO in Kansas trying to get a GED after being ruled ineligible in Chicago.  Mbakwe attended three different high schools and barely qualified.  Mason attended three high schools and had academic issues at both MU and LSU.  James Matthews was lucky to get into school and couldn't even stay academically eligible for a semester.  Anthony Green committed but had no chance of qualifying after high school or prep school and didn't sign an LOI.

It's not as if standards have drastically changed since last April. 

Nice post.

Quote from: bma725 on April 28, 2009, 07:19:40 PM
You guys are acting like Crean didn't bring in guys from JUCO and Prep School that were major academic risks.  The reality is he brought in quite a few and went after even more but couldn't land them(Takais Brown anyone?).  By my count he had three JUCO players that were academic risks(Lott, Blackledge, MJax) and six prep school players that were risk(Sanders, Townsend, Hayward, Burke, Cubillan, Saunders, Hazel).

Even a few of the high school guys had academic issues as well.  Wade was a partial qualifier.  Barro briefly attended a JUCO in Kansas trying to get a GED after being ruled ineligible in Chicago.  Mbakwe attended three different high schools and barely qualified.  Mason attended three high schools and had academic issues at both MU and LSU.  James Matthews was lucky to get into school and couldn't even stay academically eligible for a semester.  Anthony Green committed but had no chance of qualifying after high school or prep school and didn't sign an LOI.

It's not as if standards have drastically changed since last April. 

+10 hundred billion million

Barro had a saga to end all sagas, yet the focus is on Mbao.  Crean signed a ton of two year JUCO's meaning they were academically ineleigble out of HS, yet the focus is on the JUCO's that buzz has signed that were predominately eligible out of HS.
To use Memphis or Cincinnati as comparisons are so far off base.  I personally never had a problem with anyone signining preps or JUCO's, and I dont think the majority of America does either.  What brought bad light to those "rogue" programs was not where they came from but what they did while on campus and in many cases the fact that the seemingly could get away with anything.  

MU under Buzz has signed high character kids, none of them have checkered pasts with the law nor have they run into legal or academic issues since on campus.  

Al mcGuire, Bob Knight and many other coaches have signed tons of JUco's and other types of plyers that came from non-ordinary routes with tremendous succes becuase they and thier Univeristies demanded accountability and becuase they demanded it themselves.  I think it is pretty sad for Mu fans and weak of UW fans to compare Buzz Willimas or even Tom Crean to Cincinnati or Memphis or Fresno State.  At least allow his first player to be arrested or flunk out of school before that happens, just dont hold your breath...I know the guys Buzz is bringing in will represent their university with class just like Jimmy Butler, joe Fulce and yes even Zach Morley at Wisconisn did...i seem to remeber him being a high character kid that UW fans thought the world of...as they should have.

Who gives a rats a** what Fran thinks...

1)  Tanning Boy left us in a bind with bad recruiting classes the past few years and the bolt to "It's Indiana" - Buzz needed to bring in some JUCO's for upperclassmen and balancing the classes
2)   Most of the JUCO's seem to be of a different flavor - qualifiers out of high school like Butler and Fulce.   I do not know the story well for Clark and DJO...  The press on Mbao seems positive despite the high school he comes from.
3)  There is a high degree of family at MU - Fran and the f**ks at Badgermaniac will never understand this, they will not turn this program into a Memphis or UNLV

Finally - let's just kick the crap out of Fran's alma mater by 35 or drop another 100 on them like last year (by the UWM has had their share of JUCO's as well - but they still seem to suck).   

The Badger crowd is afraid and rightfully so - so they are flinging as much crap as they can...   They can have their forthcoming 4th place finishes in the Big 10 and their 52 - 44 "defensive" battles while Tubby, Crean, Weber, Painter, Matta and Izzo out recruit the crap out of them....

and Buzz out recruiting the crap out of them - at least Bo won't have to have a recruiting battle for the 6'10" white kids out of northern Wisconsin anymore (and no offense to 6'10" white kids from northern wisconsin intended)

Quote from: bma725 on April 28, 2009, 07:19:40 PM
You guys are acting like Crean didn't bring in guys from JUCO and Prep School that were major academic risks.  The reality is he brought in quite a few and went after even more but couldn't land them(Takais Brown anyone?).  By my count he had three JUCO players that were academic risks(Lott, Blackledge, MJax) and six prep school players that were risk(Sanders, Townsend, Hayward, Burke, Cubillan, Saunders, Hazel).

Even a few of the high school guys had academic issues as well.  Wade was a partial qualifier.  Barro briefly attended a JUCO in Kansas trying to get a GED after being ruled ineligible in Chicago.  Mbakwe attended three different high schools and barely qualified.  Mason attended three high schools and had academic issues at both MU and LSU.  James Matthews was lucky to get into school and couldn't even stay academically eligible for a semester.  Anthony Green committed but had no chance of qualifying after high school or prep school and didn't sign an LOI.

It's not as if standards have drastically changed since last April. 

Perhaps this dead on post will help some of the more hysterical move off the ledge. Every DI roster is loaded with players who wouldn't be at the school if they couldn't play ball. The key is having hard working and high character players, a concerned and competent coaching staff and a solid academic support system. This is expected by MU's fans and demanded by MU's administration. What makes people think this has changed?

Couple things here...

First, Fran is the ultimate apologist for the teams he supports (UW and UWM). Just an observation. He supports his teams and I've never, ever heard him criticize either program, their coaches, or players. For that, I respect him. I'm the same way, as are a select few others on message boards. Unfortunately, a lot of fans feel better about themselves jumping online and hiding behind a made-up screen name and blasting coaches and kids. I think that's bush.

Anyway...while I respect that aspect of him, he's incredibly annoying (which I'm sure is one of his major goals, to rile up the MU fan base), but more than anything he's a hypocrite.

For a prime example, he didn't lay one ounce of blame at Rob Jeter for some of his disaster recruiting mistakes he's made during his tenure. Last season, UWM's roster was gutted mid-season with a player beating the hell out of his girlfriend (former Oklahoma State player Torre Johnson), as well as numerous other departures, and guys with character issues. Not once did he point the finger at Jeter for bringing these kids in, and turned the other cheek when all these events went down.

Then, Buzz brings in some JUCO's and he screams from the mountain tops how shady things are getting.

He's a tool...a scared tool at that. He knows the MU program is acquiring better talent than UW, and he's shaking in his boots.

Let's be honest, I don't mean to offend anyone, but how hard is it to graduate with a degree in communications or social justice. As long as these kids know how to read and write MU will equip them with as much tutoring and disciplined studying habits as they need. Nobody cares what the guys' GPAs are. Just go to class write a couple decent papers, go to summer school to ease the workload, grab the Cs, and it won't end up being a big deal.

Whether he is telling it like it is or not, MU is already a more successful program than UW. The post should be written in green, not red.

Quote from: MUBasketball on April 28, 2009, 09:14:53 PM
Unfortunately, a lot of fans feel better about themselves jumping online and hiding behind a made-up screen name and blasting coaches and kids. I think that's bush.

Hey, I bet a lot of these guys are perfectly happy to blast coaches and kids in public too.

How about we talk about this when these kids actually get to campus? How is all of this such a huge change from Crean, except for the fact that this incoming class has serious height and serious talent?

Didn't Hayward have qualification problems...nobody's questioning whether or not he's a negative part of the team. Didn't Crean's JUCO man, Trend Blackledge, have academic issues? Isn't Buzz's whole philosophy "Character, character, character? Give Buzz a chance. I feel like he's earned it after proving every doubter wrong this season.

Sorry for phrasing everything in questions, but maybe it's because Fran's whole litany--with fair and potentially true points--is itself questionable and 100% speculation.

Quote from: Badgerhater920 on April 28, 2009, 11:00:35 PM
Whether he is telling it like it is or not, MU is already a more successful program than UW. The post should be written in green, not red.

You sure about that?  Outside of a more recent final four appearance by our beloved, I am not sure that at this point you could say that one or the other is "more successful."

I hope you are kidding Wiz.

It isn't even close.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 28, 2009, 08:49:31 PM
Perhaps this dead on post will help some of the more hysterical move off the ledge. Every DI roster is loaded with players who wouldn't be at the school if they couldn't play ball. The key is having hard working and high character players, a concerned and competent coaching staff and a solid academic support system. This is expected by MU's fans and demanded by MU's administration. What makes people think this has changed?

+10 hundred trillion Lenny

Well, if you go back 30+ years yes.  However if you look at the past decade or so, they are relatively equal - each has a final four, each have a couple conference championships, UW has a couple additional sweet 16s.  I am not sure what relevance the 1977 national championship has to the status of the current program...probably as much relevance as UW's 1941 championship.

Regardless, I am not sure why we feel it is important to get into some sort of pissing contest over who has the better "program."  They are both high-level programs, in top conferences with loyal fan-bases.  We don't really have battles over the same recruits or fans.  I don't understand the obsession fans of either team have with proving one is "better."

It's just fun to have a rival that is relevant.  There are not many states where half the division one teams play in front of 12,000+ fans every game.  That's a good thing.

I hate to say it but I agree with some of Fran's feelings. I understand why Buzz did what he did this year but I would hope we could in the next few years go back to the policy of recruiting freshmen who would be here four years. That said, UW is the last school that should be talking about its admission policies regarding athletes.

Quote from: AWegrzyn17 on April 28, 2009, 09:26:52 PM
Let's be honest, I don't mean to offend anyone, but how hard is it to graduate with a degree in communications or social justice. As long as these kids know how to read and write MU will equip them with as much tutoring and disciplined studying habits as they need. Nobody cares what the guys' GPAs are. Just go to class write a couple decent papers, go to summer school to ease the workload, grab the Cs, and it won't end up being a big deal.

I really tried to let this crap go but it's bothering me. Are you implying that a communications or social justice degree is inherently less difficult than business or engineering? That's utter bullcrap. A degree is what you make of it. Frankly, the truth is that the reason a lot of athletes are in these fields is because the classes do not have a lot of labs (which would create scheduling issues) and the general ed's are fewer in Communication than the other colleges. Sorry if this comes across as a sensitive graduate yelling to get off the high horse, but the implication that comm or soj courses are easier or for traditionally academically challenged students pisses me off.

Quote from: ZMovieman on April 29, 2009, 09:51:58 AM
I really tried to let this crap go but it's bothering me. Are you implying that a communications or social justice degree is inherently less difficult than business or engineering? That's utter bullcrap. A degree is what you make of it. Frankly, the truth is that the reason a lot of athletes are in these fields is because the classes do not have a lot of labs (which would create scheduling issues) and the general ed's are fewer in Communication than the other colleges. Sorry if this comes across as a sensitive graduate yelling to get off the high horse, but the implication that comm or soj courses are easier or for traditionally academically challenged students pisses me off.

But you do realize it's true right? Feel free to compare the classes and more importantly schedules of a communications student to an engineering student.

Quote from: marqptm on April 29, 2009, 10:08:34 AM
But you do realize it's true right? Feel free to compare the classes and more importantly schedules of a communications student to an engineering student.

Not to spin this off into a whole different topic... but...

I think it depends on the person to determine what is "harder".

I know some incredibly smart engineers and medical students who couldn't tie their own shoes. If you put them in Comm. or Marketing they would bomb. They are certainly "smart enough", but a lot of things that come easy to a Comm. student wouldn't be so easy for the engineer and vice versa.

Some people can do it all (engage left and right side of their brain, communicate well, creative but still analytical, etc.), those people are usually very successful in the "real world"

With all of this said, for most people, a Comm. degree is certainly less intimidating and probably less challenging than a degree in biomedical engineering.

Quote from: The Wizard of West Salem on April 29, 2009, 08:41:40 AM
Well, if you go back 30+ years yes.  However if you look at the past decade or so, they are relatively equal - each has a final four, each have a couple conference championships, UW has a couple additional sweet 16s.  I am not sure what relevance the 1977 national championship has to the status of the current program...probably as much relevance as UW's 1941 championship.

Regardless, I am not sure why we feel it is important to get into some sort of pissing contest over who has the better "program."  They are both high-level programs, in top conferences with loyal fan-bases.  We don't really have battles over the same recruits or fans.  I don't understand the obsession fans of either team have with proving one is "better."

It's just fun to have a rival that is relevant.  There are not many states where half the division one teams play in front of 12,000+ fans every game.  That's a good thing.

So what you are then saying is that MU has a better program than say an IU or a Georgetown, or possibly a Kentucky based on the last ten years?  Please that is a reatrded remark.  The last ten years has been heretofore never seen before peak of Wisconsin basketball yet is by your own admission on par with MU.  Now would you like to review the the last 5 decades?  Even the 80's clearly Mu's low water mark were better than the 80's in Madison.  Wisconisn was the doormat battling NW for last place every year in the B11 for the last 50 years until the last decade.  

As alluded to in an earlier post in this thread, the JUCO recruits have a far different flavor to them than the usual Big 12 / Bob Huggins type recruitment of JUCOs.  Three are actually qualifiers and have 3 years of elegibility in Fulce, Butler and (ultimately) DJO.  Buycks and Clark are local guys who have overcome adversity.  Mbao is really an international guy who is getting his footing in the USA at (unfortuately from an appearance standpoint) Stoneridge HS.  From all accounts, Youss does not have academic issues, but rather eligibility issues due to his international status and his escperience in Spain.  Normally, I too would not be thrilled with taking a number of JUCOS in a short time frame.  But, this seems to be a different scenario here.  Certainly Fulce and Butler have worked out well.  In the end, all of this speculation by BB Fran (and Chicos, who stated on Badger Nation under his Striped Tomato handle that he agrees with 85% of  BB's post)  is far too premature. Also, Buzz is an upstanding guy.  He is not taking foolish chances.

Quote from: The Wizard of West Salem on April 29, 2009, 08:41:40 AM
Well, if you go back 30+ years yes.  However if you look at the past decade or so, they are relatively equal - each has a final four, each have a couple conference championships, UW has a couple additional sweet 16s.  I am not sure what relevance the 1977 national championship has to the status of the current program...probably as much relevance as UW's 1941 championship.

Regardless, I am not sure why we feel it is important to get into some sort of pissing contest over who has the better "program."  They are both high-level programs, in top conferences with loyal fan-bases.  We don't really have battles over the same recruits or fans.  I don't understand the obsession fans of either team have with proving one is "better."

It's just fun to have a rival that is relevant.  There are not many states where half the division one teams play in front of 12,000+ fans every game.  That's a good thing.

You need to increase your sample size.

Deleted.

Quote from: 2002mualum on April 29, 2009, 10:18:02 AM
Not to spin this off into a whole different topic... but...

I think it depends on the person to determine what is "harder".

I know some incredibly smart engineers and medical students who couldn't tie their own shoes. If you put them in Comm. or Marketing they would bomb. They are certainly "smart enough", but a lot of things that come easy to a Comm. student wouldn't be so easy for the engineer and vice versa.

Some people can do it all (engage left and right side of their brain, communicate well, creative but still analytical, etc.), those people are usually very successful in the "real world"

With all of this said, for most people, a Comm. degree is certainly less intimidating and probably less challenging than a degree in biomedical engineering.

Thanks for the assist. This is really more along the lines of what I was arguing about. It may be just semantics, but I found my science courses easier than playwrighting, for instance. Harder is a relative term. As for schedules, I defy you to find someone who maintained some of the schedules adhered to by theatre, broadcasting, journalist, and social justice students and tell them that because they didn't have a lab, they had an easier class load.

I guess I am just put off by the general assumption that if you major in communications or social justice, that you are taking the easier path. I know we are talking in generals, because there are always exceptions. I just find the perception insulting, even if no offense was intended.

Fran may be concerned because he saw Jeter's failures in recruiting when he began at UWM.

I think it is tough to look at one recruiting class and draw a conclusion about how MU will operate or how Buzz will recruit in the future.  This recruiting class was unique for many reasons:  (a) Buzz's first real class; (b) replacing one of the best recruiting classes ever.

Buzz came in and in one year brought a ton of talent to MU from just about everywhere in the US.  I think that in the future Buzz will go where the talent is and recruit talent.  

The Rob Jeter example is interesting.  Jeter was forced to replace a ton of UWM "talent" and went out and brought in some of the worst characters you could find.  Torre Johnson was a known troublemaker and Jeter knew the risks but went there anyway and Johnson experienced the Milwaukee criminal justice system firsthand.  Tim Flowers and his buddy also had enormous baggage as well but they were welcomed because of their talent --- both would be gone before their first year.  I can't recall the other casualties but they also had a very short stay at UWM.    

Jeter took a risk (or multiple risks) and lost.  It appears as if he has changed his recruiting approach because the situation is different now then when he took the job.

Buzz has also brought in kids that may or may not have problems.  None of them have Torre Johnson problems.   All are unique and may or may not last.  That goes for every kid in every program.  I say we wait and see and let Buzz take his shot.

The point is that Jeter, like any new coach, has adjusted his style of recruiting based on factors in play:  balance the classes, replace needs, etc.

One recruiting class is too small of a sample size to draw conclusions about future classes.

I love the condescending and misguided comment about her "long suffering MU friends."

MU's past, present and now future hoops prospects are all better than UW's.  We've been to the final four more often and more recently, and have won the last two versions of UW's Super Bowl.  But other than that, she's right:  UW is so much better than MU. ;)

Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on April 29, 2009, 10:19:29 AM
So what you are then saying is that MU has a better program than say an IU or a Georgetown, or possibly a Kentucky based on the last ten years?  Please that is a reatrded remark.  The last ten years has been heretofore never seen before peak of Wisconsin basketball yet is by your own admission on par with MU.  Now would you like to review the the last 5 decades?  Even the 80's clearly Mu's low water mark were better than the 80's in Madison.  Wisconisn was the doormat battling NW for last place every year in the B11 for the last 50 years until the last decade.  

Tradition matters no doubt.  But so does immediacy.  I love the fact that Marquette has a long and proud basketball history.  As an alum, it makes me feel good.  But to an outside audience, I have no idea what relevance it has in 2009 that MU won a basketball title in 1977.  My larger point is...why do we care so much?  Do we feel better about ourselves because we claim to have a better basketball program than UW?  We should root for MU because it is *our* team...not because we think they are "better."

BTW, I think it is ironically funny that you spelled "retarded" wrong.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 28, 2009, 05:38:24 PM
Ready2Fly....I would ask the caribou.

Nice try.  I'm not who you're insinuating, I am, I graduated in '06.  I'm glad you were able to read my e-mail address that I wasn't attempting to hide, though.

And that still doesn't answer my question of why you post much different things here than you do under the name MUwarrior74 on the Badger board. 

Which is it?  Are you deeply concerned about Stoneridge and all these JUCO's, as you post here?  Or is one NCAA certified school the same as any other, like you posted over there?

Quote from: Nukem2 on April 29, 2009, 10:21:23 AM
As alluded to in an earlier post in this thread, the JUCO recruits have a far different flavor to them than the usual Big 12 / Bob Huggins type recruitment of JUCOs.  Three are actually qualifiers and have 3 years of elegibility in Fulce, Butler and (ultimately) DJO.  Buycks and Clark are local guys who have overcome adversity.  Mbao is really an international guy who is getting his footing in the USA at (unfortuately from an appearance standpoint) Stoneridge HS.  From all accounts, Youss does not have academic issues, but rather eligibility issues due to his international status and his escperience in Spain.  Normally, I too would not be thrilled with taking a number of JUCOS in a short time frame.  But, this seems to be a different scenario here.  Certainly Fulce and Butler have worked out well.  In the end, all of this speculation by BB Fran (and Chicos, who stated on Badger Nation under his Striped Tomato handle that he agrees with 85% of  BB's post)  is far too premature. Also, Buzz is an upstanding guy.  He is not taking foolish chances.

The 85% I agree with is the same that other posters here have also stated, like Ecompt, etc.  That is from a perception standpoint it's a marked change from the past.   I've also said that Buzz is an upstanding guy and seems to want his kids to graduate, etc....thus I don't think he's taking a foolish chance.  But there is no question the approach has changed and that is mostly what Fran is talking about.  We've never had this many Juco's on our team at one time that I'm aware of.  I don't recall us ever taking a kid from a prep school that was delisted by the NCAA either.   That's the 85% that I'm referencing. 

I also think his last paragraph is largely correct, though typical in his condescending and arrogant tone.  This isn't 1977 anymore....we've had two Sweet 16's since then.  The key is that teh other 15%, where he's a complete horse's ass and factually incorrect, I don't agree with him on.

Quote from: Nukem2 on April 29, 2009, 10:21:23 AM
As alluded to in an earlier post in this thread, the JUCO recruits have a far different flavor to them than the usual Big 12 / Bob Huggins type recruitment of JUCOs.  Three are actually qualifiers and have 3 years of elegibility in Fulce, Butler and (ultimately) DJO.  Buycks and Clark are local guys who have overcome adversity.  Mbao is really an international guy who is getting his footing in the USA at (unfortuately from an appearance standpoint) Stoneridge HS.  From all accounts, Youss does not have academic issues, but rather eligibility issues due to his international status and his escperience in Spain.  Normally, I too would not be thrilled with taking a number of JUCOS in a short time frame.  But, this seems to be a different scenario here.  Certainly Fulce and Butler have worked out well.  In the end, all of this speculation by BB Fran (and Chicos, who stated on Badger Nation under his Striped Tomato handle that he agrees with 85% of  BB's post)  is far too premature. Also, Buzz is an upstanding guy.  He is not taking foolish chances.

My guess is chicos and Fran are the same person after having read their remarks, like Sybil a szysophrenic having a conversation whith himself.  they seem to agree while everyone else thinks he is an idiot

Quote from: The Wizard of West Salem on April 29, 2009, 10:58:26 AM

Tradition matters no doubt.  But so does immediacy.  I love the fact that Marquette has a long and proud basketball history.  As an alum, it makes me feel good.  But to an outside audience, I have no idea what relevance it has in 2009 that MU won a basketball title in 1977.  My larger point is...why do we care so much?  Do we feel better about ourselves because we claim to have a better basketball program than UW?  We should root for MU because it is *our* team...not because we think they are "better."

BTW, I think it is ironically funny that you spelled "retarded" wrong.

I absolutely do not care.  I only responded to it becuase you said we were on equal.  I did take objection tho becuase to compare Mu to UW is like comparing Mu to NW in basketball or some other pereeniial doormat, the washigton generals or something.  I am not from Wisconsin but being from the Midwest and knowing the B10 for 40 years when you are compared to being on par over the years with a UW I know a slap in the face when i feel it.  Sure they have had a nice 10 year run, but they were a 40 year laughinstock while Mu was a power.  obviously wisocnison dwelling Mu fans may take more exception to you saying UW is on Par with Mu but i still take exception and pointed out the lunancy of your statement.

Quote from: ZMovieman on April 29, 2009, 09:51:58 AM
I really tried to let this crap go but it's bothering me. Are you implying that a communications or social justice degree is inherently less difficult than business or engineering? That's utter bullcrap. A degree is what you make of it. Frankly, the truth is that the reason a lot of athletes are in these fields is because the classes do not have a lot of labs (which would create scheduling issues) and the general ed's are fewer in Communication than the other colleges. Sorry if this comes across as a sensitive graduate yelling to get off the high horse, but the implication that comm or soj courses are easier or for traditionally academically challenged students pisses me off.

Z, I hope you're the Dean of Comm b/c everyone else knows and admits it's easy.  I'm a proud grad of ADPR, it ain't rocket science.  I was able to close a bar Tues-Sat and still carry a respectable QPA, intern at a top agency and create a nice career.  There's no way in the world my college curriculum was even 75% as tough as my high school course work.  

Quote from: The Lens on April 29, 2009, 12:25:06 PM
Z, I hope you're the Dean of Comm b/c everyone else knows and admits it's easy.  I'm a proud grad of ADPR, it ain't rocket science.  I was able to close a bar Tues-Sat and still carry a respectable QPA, intern at a top agency and create a nice career.  There's no way in the world my college curriculum was even 75% as tough as my high school course work.  

You don't have to be dean of communication to take pride in their academics. Again, it's all relative and what you make of it, but as I said above and repeat now: I guess I am just put off by the general assumption that if you major in communications or social justice, that you are taking the easier path. I know we are talking in generals, because there are always exceptions. I just find the perception insulting, even if no offense was intended.

For what it's worth, even though I majored in the College of Communication, it was not my primary major nor was I a member of it.

"The Past is to be respected and acknowledged, but not to be worshiped. It is our future in which we will find our greatness." –  Pierre Trudeau

Ready2Fly, I'm pretty sure I'm clear as a bell that I'm concerned about Stoneridge, not the student athlete. 

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=14640.75

I'm not wild about all the Juco's, but it's tempered with the fact that three of them were already qualifiers out of high school. 

I hope this is a one-off situation.  I'd prefer to win without a potential perception of going a route that MU has not historically taken.   Perhaps that is not possible anymore, but I think it still is.  Fran's comments, at least some of them, have resonated with many people on this site as well as the Journal Sentinel site from what I've read.   Whether it's risky or not is a matter of opinion.  Some think it's not, others do.  Fran seems to think it does....I'm leaning toward that way if it continues.  Those fears will lessen if kids continue to graduate, no issues, etc.  But let's not be naive, if grad rates plummet, things start happening off the court, people will point to a different recruiting approach (fairly or unfairly). 

Crean took some JUCOs and prep school kids.  KO did as well.  So we are not without a history of taking some of these kids, but I don't recall doing so in this quantity.  Someone can set me straight if that's not the case.

I do think it's interesting that Cottingham and the powers that be are green lighting this.  Since Cottingham is buddies with Fran, that makes his comments even more interesting.  In essence, he's taking a swipe at his pal.  They must be comfortable with the approach or I can't imagine they would let it happen. 

All these kids seem like good kids (just keep them off YouTube  ;) ) but to ignore the perceptions is sticking one's head in the sand.  If perceptions don't bother you, then this won't bother you. If perceptions are important to you, then the new direction can be a POTENTIAL red flag (we'll see). 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 29, 2009, 12:12:19 PM
The 85% I agree with is the same that other posters here have also stated, like Ecompt, etc.  That is from a perception standpoint it's a marked change from the past.     I've also said that Buzz is an upstanding guy and seems to want his kids to graduate, etc....thus I don't think he's taking a foolish chance.  But there is no question the approach has changed and that is mostly what Fran is talking about.  We've never had this many Juco's on our team at one time that I'm aware of.  I don't recall us ever taking a kid from a prep school that was delisted by the NCAA either.   That's the 85% that I'm referencing. 

I also think his last paragraph is largely correct, though typical in his condescending and arrogant tone.  This isn't 1977 anymore....we've had two Sweet 16's since then.  The key is that teh other 15%, where he's a complete horse's ass and factually incorrect, I don't agree with him on.

Ah, but thats my point.  Has the approach truly changed that dramatically?  Three JUCOs who were HS qualifiers (even if the clearinghouse dragged its feet on DJO)and two local kids who have straightened out their lives using the JUCO route is not like going out in April and tracking down the best JUCO available as the Big 12 ( read Kelvin Sampson) routinely does is not that different than getting Mbakwe eleigible and having Saunders in the wing.  Remember that Buzz had large holes to fill and unbalanced classes to re-balance because of Crean's departure.  Again, the Mbao situation is really no different than Barro.  Ooze was at Chicago Julian with the same coach that formed the short-lived Boys to Men Academy. Barro was just fine as I'm sure Youssoupha will.  Unlike many posters here, I tend to agree with most of your posts; but, I think you may be too "concerned" at this point.

1. Why does anyone care about the thoughts of a Badger fan who's right about as often as a broken clock?

2. When UW stops admitting the likes of Boo Wade, Marcetteaus McGee,  Lance Smith-Williams, Booker Stanley, Dwayne Smith, etc., then they can start lecturing Marquette on the quality of its student-athletes.

Innocent until proven guilty.  Buzz has accumulated height and talent in ways his predecessors didn't.   Perhaps by necessity, perhaps by design, we now have recruiting classes that are balanced by (A) position, (B) years of eligibility.    Not one of them has done anything worse than said something stupid on youtube.   Ooooooooooh, I NEVER said anything stupid in my youth.  ::)     Other than Mboa's possible participation in a foreign professional league, the only one with even POSSIBLE eligibility issues is a high-schooler.  Every previous coach has brought in JUCO's.   Every previous coach has had kids that washed out or transferred for some reason.   Buzz had big holes to fill and he filled them.  These kids are innocent until proven guilty.   I assume Buzz is going to continue to get the job done until he proves he can't.    Fran is a douche.    He's proven that.

Quote from: Nukem2 on April 29, 2009, 12:48:48 PM
 Unlike many posters here, I tend to agree with most of your posts; but, I think you may be too "concerned" at this point.

What, most posters don't agree with me?   :D


Your points are well taken, perhaps it's the quantity that has me more concerned. I don't recall this many kids in one class.  Typically there were 1, maybe two most years but this year seems to be the lion's share. Yes, big holes to fill and he's balanced the classes.  It's the right thing to do in order to get back to a balanced class scenario.  I think I've also said I hope this isn't the norm but the exception.  Do you think that will be the case?   If it becomes the norm, does that bother you?

In a perfect world, this is a one time solution.   If it becomes the norm, why?   If EWill, Jerrone, DJO, Buycks, and Mboa are all so good that they are one or two and gone and Buzz needs to reload, if he comes up with more talent that upholds the MU name, then yeah, I am OK with it.  That is something rarely asked here.   What if these kids actually live up to the hype and MU finds itself in a position of having a player or two leaving early for the league?  If Buzz is uncovering that kind of talent, and the kids go to class and represent MU with class and distinction, bring it on.  If two flunk out and 3 are arrested, that is a different kettle of fish.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 29, 2009, 01:01:27 PM
What, most posters don't agree with me?   :D


Your points are well taken, perhaps it's the quantity that has me more concerned. I don't recall this many kids in one class.  Typically there were 1, maybe two most years but this year seems to be the lion's share. Yes, big holes to fill and he's balanced the classes.  It's the right thing to do in order to get back to a balanced class scenario.  I think I've also said I hope this isn't the norm but the exception.  Do you think that will be the case?   If it becomes the norm, does that bother you?

Yes, it would bother me if it became the norm.  Now, buzz will recruit some JUCOs because of his background; but, I suspect he'll be more reliant upon HS guys in the future now that the classes are more balanced and team size issues have been addressed.

Interesting article I came across today that is somewhat related to this thread.
Bradley University's 09-10 recruiting class is the first time in Jim Les' 7 years of coaching the Braves that the entire incoming class are made up of high school players.  He trumpets it as a sign of stability and I agree.

While we've had our share of JUCOs under TC, our 09-10 class on the surface appears to be a sign of a shift in philosophy but that's mostly because of the unique situation we had with such an unstable and unbalanced class.

Having said that, moving forward I wouldn't be surprised if Buzz continues to scour the JC route more than what MU has been recently accustomed to but then again, that's to be expected.  Buzz maintains strong ties there and so long as his future JC recruits are more in the mold of J.Butler (both in terms of perceived character and proven basketball skills) then there's nothing to be ashamed of in that.

http://www.pjstar.com/sports/x303486676/BU-well-stocked-with-this-recruiting-class

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 29, 2009, 12:42:16 PM
Ready2Fly, I'm pretty sure I'm clear as a bell that I'm concerned about Stoneridge, not the student athlete. 

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=14640.75

I'm not wild about all the Juco's, but it's tempered with the fact that three of them were already qualifiers out of high school. 

I hope this is a one-off situation.  I'd prefer to win without a potential perception of going a route that MU has not historically taken.   Perhaps that is not possible anymore, but I think it still is.  Fran's comments, at least some of them, have resonated with many people on this site as well as the Journal Sentinel site from what I've read.   Whether it's risky or not is a matter of opinion.  Some think it's not, others do.  Fran seems to think it does....I'm leaning toward that way if it continues.  Those fears will lessen if kids continue to graduate, no issues, etc.  But let's not be naive, if grad rates plummet, things start happening off the court, people will point to a different recruiting approach (fairly or unfairly). 

Crean took some JUCOs and prep school kids.  KO did as well.  So we are not without a history of taking some of these kids, but I don't recall doing so in this quantity.  Someone can set me straight if that's not the case.

I do think it's interesting that Cottingham and the powers that be are green lighting this.  Since Cottingham is buddies with Fran, that makes his comments even more interesting.  In essence, he's taking a swipe at his pal.  They must be comfortable with the approach or I can't imagine they would let it happen. 

All these kids seem like good kids (just keep them off YouTube  ;) ) but to ignore the perceptions is sticking one's head in the sand.  If perceptions don't bother you, then this won't bother you. If perceptions are important to you, then the new direction can be a POTENTIAL red flag (we'll see). 

It's bad enough that you're concerned with with the perception of those who are ignorant of the facts, hostile to MU, or both. Now you're worrying about POTENTIAL perception problems. Believe me, you don't have to lecture anyone on the board that there will be problems if these kids turn out to be thugs and flunk outs. (James Matthews?) This is yet another example of the tired, repititious Chico's mantra: Don't talk about the incredible success Buzz and MU experienced today, let's talk about how today's success really belongs to TC or raises potential perception problems sometime in the future. I don't know where public relations and managing perceptions ranks in MU's mission statement but I suspect it pretty low. After all, the guy the university most tries to emulate had some major perception problems.

Quote from: Pago Warrior on April 29, 2009, 01:47:30 PM
Interesting article I came across today that is somewhat related to this thread.
Bradley University's 09-10 recruiting class is the first time in Jim Les' 7 years of coaching the Braves that the entire incoming class are made up of high school players.  He trumpets it as a sign of stability and I agree.

While we've had our share of JUCOs under TC, our 09-10 class on the surface appears to be a sign of a shift in philosophy but that's mostly because of the unique situation we had with such an unstable and unbalanced class.

Having said that, moving forward I wouldn't be surprised if Buzz continues to scour the JC route more than what MU has been recently accustomed to but then again, that's to be expected.  Buzz maintains strong ties there and so long as his future JC recruits are more in the mold of J.Butler (both in terms of perceived character and proven basketball skills) then there's nothing to be ashamed of in that.

http://www.pjstar.com/sports/x303486676/BU-well-stocked-with-this-recruiting-class

It is nice to see that the above board approach to college recruiting is "playing well in Peoria".

Quote from: Nukem2 on April 29, 2009, 01:47:14 PM
Yes, it would bother me if it became the norm.  Now, buzz will recruit some JUCOs because of his background; but, I suspect he'll be more reliant upon HS guys in the future now that the classes are more balanced and team size issues have been addressed.

I think we are basically on the same page, I'm just more of a nervous nellie then you are overall.   ;D  It's been so long since MU was relevant again nationwide (i.e....people in California have actually heard of us again) that I'm hoping we can sustain the fine reputation of the basketball program, the school, etc on a national basis.  Too many people have worked too hard over the last two decades, through many hard times, to see that go by the way side.

Food for thought:

Let's say another Big East private school (say ND or Depaul) lost a coach and one year later brought in the following recruiting class:

PG - Junior Cadougan (LOI) - Small school, some people could consider it a "basketball factory" if they just looked on the surface (yes, I know Junior is a great student, I'm just looking on the surface for argument's sake)
SG - Dwight Buycks (LOI) - Junior College player
SG - Darius Johnson-Odom (verbal) - Junior College player
SF - Erik Williams (LOI) - High school senior
PF - Jeronne Maymon (LOI) - High school senior
PF - Brett Roseboro (LOI) - High school senior
C -  Youssoupha Mbao (LOI) - Prep School at a small school that has had some questionable academics in the past

2010 Verbal Commitments
SG - Aaron Bowen- High school junior
PF/C - Monterale Clark - 2 year JC player who also transferred a couple of times in high school.

I guarantee you that we would all be impressed with the talent that ND or Depaul was bringing in, but would also be skeptical of who these kids really are.

I still trust that Buzz and MU are doing the right thing, but I'm not surprised by the reactions of MU fans and the rival fans.

I'm very optimistic for the future, but on the surface, this does look a little funky. We can admit that, right?

Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 29, 2009, 02:09:40 PM
It's bad enough that you're concerned with with the perception of those who are ignorant of the facts, hostile to MU, or both. Now you're worrying about POTENTIAL perception problems. Believe me, you don't have to lecture anyone on the board that there will be problems if these kids turn out to be thugs and flunk outs. (James Matthews?) This is yet another example of the tired, repititious Chico's mantra: Don't talk about the incredible success Buzz and MU experienced today, let's talk about how today's success really belongs to TC or raises potential perception problems sometime in the future. I don't know where public relations and managing perceptions ranks in MU's mission statement but I suspect it pretty low. After all, the guy the university most tries to emulate had some major perception problems.

And your same old tired rehash of false statements is getting old.  I have complimented Buzz many many many times over but you and a few others refuse to acknowledge it. I can put it in glowing font and you still ignore it.  I don't get it.   Yet when I make a comment that he was given a great team handed to him, you guys take that as a slap against Buzz...it isn't, it's simply a factual statement.  He was handed a great team.  And he did VERY WELL WITH IT    (assume that last sentence is in a glowing font that you might notice and attribute to the poster).  Again and again, he did a very good job this past year   BUT I will be thoroughly convinced a few years down the road (that is not a slam on him, it's the reality of the situation.  Too many guys have failed in years 3 - 5 just as many have succeeded....I'll wait to pass full judgment thank you very much, but so far so good.)


And while you're at it, why do you single me out?  There are many others here that have those same concerns about perceptions. I'd hate for your bitching to be so narrowly focused when there are other fish in the barrell for you to take a shot at.  I'd hate for you to have to remove your blinders.

Quote from: 2002mualum on April 29, 2009, 02:25:00 PM
Food for thought:

Let's say another Big East private school (say ND or Depaul) lost a coach and one year later brought in the following recruiting class:

PG - Junior Cadougan (LOI) - Small school, some people could consider it a "basketball factory" if they just looked on the surface (yes, I know Junior is a great student, I'm just looking on the surface for argument's sake)
SG - Dwight Buycks (LOI) - Junior College player
SG - Darius Johnson-Odom (verbal) - Junior College player
SF - Erik Williams (LOI) - High school senior
PF - Jeronne Maymon (LOI) - High school senior
PF - Brett Roseboro (LOI) - High school senior
C -  Youssoupha Mbao (LOI) - Prep School at a small school that has had some questionable academics in the past

2010 Verbal Commitments
SG - Aaron Bowen- High school junior
PF/C - Monterale Clark - 2 year JC player who also transferred a couple of times in high school.

I guarantee you that we would all be impressed with the talent that ND or Depaul was bringing in, but would also be skeptical of who these kids really are.

I still trust that Buzz and MU are doing the right thing, but I'm not surprised by the reactions of MU fans and the rival fans.

I'm very optimistic for the future, but on the surface, this does look a little funky. We can admit that, right?

Yup, that's exactly what people here would say.  Plus a few unhinged would start throwing around $$ signs to imply paying off players, etc.  Just like they did when Pat Kennedy was around.  It's the nature of fandom.  It's ok to criticize your opponents (UC, UCONN, ND, DePaul) or a coach you hate (Crean, etc) but if we show the same behavior you're skewered for even bringing it up. 

It's like watching people react to Senators switching parties yesterday vs those same people's reactions when someone in their party switched last year (completely 180 degrees in opinion).  Or watching Bulls fans hate on Dennis Rodman as a Piston until he became a Bull, then suddenly he's a prince.  There are millions of examples of hypocrisy.  Just the way folks are, all of us (including myself in that statement).

Well, I'll admit that people who really understand recruiting would probably not criticize DePaul program for taking these players, because they know the truth about these players and the actual risks.

But, the basic fans and the internet whores (like myself), would most likely be skeptical if another school was bringing in the same class. (Depaul is a perfect example, BTW).

We would just see things like "JUCO", "Prep School", "Multiple transfers in high school", etc. as assume that the school is starting to sell out to bring in talent.

Is that really the case?

Maybe, maybe not.

But, that would certainly be the perception for those not close to the DePaul program.

MU is no different.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 29, 2009, 02:27:46 PM
And your same old tired rehash of false statements is getting old.  I have complimented Buzz many many many times over but you and a few others refuse to acknowledge it. I can put it in glowing font and you still ignore it.  I don't get it.   Yet when I make a comment that he was given a great team handed to him, you guys take that as a slap against Buzz...it isn't, it's simply a factual statement.  He was handed a great team.  And he did VERY WELL WITH IT    (assume that last sentence is in a glowing font that you might notice and attribute to the poster).  Again and again, he did a very good job this past year   BUT I will be thoroughly convinced a few years down the road (that is not a slam on him, it's the reality of the situation.  Too many guys have failed in years 3 - 5 just as many have succeeded....I'll wait to pass full judgment thank you very much, but so far so good.)


And while you're at it, why do you single me out?  There are many others here that have those same concerns about perceptions. I'd hate for your bitching to be so narrowly focused when there are other fish in the barrell for you to take a shot at.  I'd hate for you to have to remove your blinders.

Sorry if you think I'm picking on you, but you did start this thread by printing Fran's "Has MU sold its soul" diatribe and later admitting to posting an 85% agreement on the Badger Board. I guess that and your posting 10 times on the thread made you the "lead dog" in my view. So to pjdunn, MUshrooms,ecompt and PRN (who all briefly expessed agreement with you) allow me to express my disagreement. Hope this makes you happy.

1. grow thicker skin
2. stay off the internet

Passive aggressive people like him are not going to change their ways no matter how much you argue with him. Does it really matter what a bunch of internet crazies think about MU's recruiting? If these players represent MU well over their 2-4 years, you will have the last laugh.

Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on April 29, 2009, 12:19:40 PM

I absolutely do not care.  I only responded to it becuase you said we were on equal.  I did take objection tho becuase to compare Mu to UW is like comparing Mu to NW in basketball or some other pereeniial doormat, the washigton generals or something.  I am not from Wisconsin but being from the Midwest and knowing the B10 for 40 years when you are compared to being on par over the years with a UW I know a slap in the face when i feel it. 

And...again...I will state that while history means something, immediate history is more important.  And in recent history, UW's and MU's program has been roughly equal.  Sorry if you view that as a slap in the face.

Quote from: indeelaw90 on April 29, 2009, 03:45:31 PM
1. grow thicker skin
2. stay off the internet

Passive aggressive people like him are not going to change their ways no matter how much you argue with him. Does it really matter what a bunch of internet crazies think about MU's recruiting? If these players represent MU well over their 2-4 years, you will have the last laugh.

Indee, I'm with you.  Getting into wordsmithing with Mr. BowTie is silly and unrewarding.  Ignore him and one will be so much the better for it.

Quote from: indeelaw90 on April 29, 2009, 03:45:31 PM
1. grow thicker skin
2. stay off the internet

Passive aggressive people like him are not going to change their ways no matter how much you argue with him. Does it really matter what a bunch of internet crazies think about MU's recruiting? If these players represent MU well over their 2-4 years, you will have the last laugh.

You are 100% correct on Frannie. If the EXACT SAME scenarios were to exist at MU and UW, Fran would report on the disaster at MU and the triumph at UW. He doesn't concern me one iota. Our fans that agree with him do.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 29, 2009, 03:39:37 PM
Sorry if you think I'm picking on you, but you did start this thread by printing Fran's "Has MU sold its soul" diatribe and later admitting to posting an 85% agreement on the Badger Board. I guess that and your posting 10 times on the thread made you the "lead dog" in my view. So to pjdunn, MUshrooms,ecompt and PRN (who all briefly expessed agreement with you) allow me to express my disagreement. Hope this makes you happy.

Nothing to do with Happiness Lenny, it's simply about getting it right.

The thing is that it's not just on this thread, it's as if you ignore the complements I give Buzz all the time which is really what I have to question.  Whether it's you, Hayward, and three or four others, you put it in absolute terms.  I don't understand why.  There are very very very few people here that are anti-Buzz yet you and others portray some of us, including myself, as if we are anti-Buzz.  Couldn't be farther from the truth. 

I'm not anti-Buzz, I want him to do well, I complement him often and all these things are ignored as if they never happen.  I don't get it.  You're entitled to write whatever you want, but I just want you to at least get in the ballpark on your accusations.  To suggest I NEVER say anything good about Buzz, or ALWAYS blame Buzz or don't want him to do well is just flat out wrong.  I'm not going to get on my knees and blow him (I'm stealing that from a poster last week who said I blow TC) because I want a few years to judge him.  If others want to do that, fine.  On the other hand, I certainly want him to succeed.  He's going to be our guy for the next few years at a minimum so we should all want him to succeed.

Quote from: Nukem2 on April 29, 2009, 03:52:59 PM
Indee, I'm with you.  Getting into wordsmithing with Mr. BowTie is silly and unrewarding.  Ignore him and one will be so much the better for it.

I thought I had a good one on their board today with my reference to Big foot and Lochness.   :)

Quote from: The Wizard of West Salem on April 29, 2009, 03:49:02 PM

And...again...I will state that while history means something, immediate history is more important.  And in recent history, UW's and MU's program has been roughly equal.  Sorry if you view that as a slap in the face.

You are correct....did someone honestly say our program is better than theirs in recent history?  Total homers if they did.

They have more conference championships, more regular season wins, more tournament wins, more conference tournament wins, more NCAA bids, more head to head wins against us in the last 15 years.

In the last 5 years, I'd call the programs pretty close....they got a gift one year of playing 3 straight double digit dogs in the NCAAs, but other than that it's been pretty close (we've had to play in a much tougher conference which evens things out).


But the last 15, not really that close.   Certainly if you evaluate the programs in their entirety then MU wins hands down.   All depends on what time interval is chosen. 

I'm sure I'm a hater for stating this, but factually I don't know how it can be argued.

Quote from: Pago Warrior on April 29, 2009, 01:47:30 PM
Having said that, moving forward I wouldn't be surprised if Buzz continues to scour the JC route more than what MU has been recently accustomed to but then again, that's to be expected.  Buzz maintains strong ties there and so long as his future JC recruits are more in the mold of J.Butler (both in terms of perceived character and proven basketball skills) then there's nothing to be ashamed of in that.

Agreed that he may look at more JUCOs than we're used too.  However, I don't think it's because his roots are firmly entrenched there.  I believe him when he says "We're looking to sign the best players available".   Some kids are not available to MU because they're not interested.  But Buzz seems willing to sign the best kids available to him regardless where they are from.  From the sounds of it, none of the guys he's signed sound like social misfits, so I don't see any problem with them doing well (athletically and academically) at MU.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 29, 2009, 03:39:37 PM
Sorry if you think I'm picking on you, but you did start this thread by printing Fran's "Has MU sold its soul" diatribe and later admitting to posting an 85% agreement on the Badger Board. I guess that and your posting 10 times on the thread made you the "lead dog" in my view. So to pjdunn, MUshrooms,ecompt and PRN (who all briefly expessed agreement with you) allow me to express my disagreement. Hope this makes you happy.

Actually Leonard, I welcome your differing point of view.  Considering that we are in the true dog days of college bball this has been a pretty entertaining thread.  Once the season starts my sanctimonious side will give way to a more Al Davis type attitude.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 29, 2009, 05:26:16 PM
Nothing to do with Happiness Lenny, it's simply about getting it right.

The thing is that it's not just on this thread, it's as if you ignore the complements I give Buzz all the time which is really what I have to question.  Whether it's you, Hayward, and three or four others, you put it in absolute terms.  I don't understand why.  There are very very very few people here that are anti-Buzz yet you and others portray some of us, including myself, as if we are anti-Buzz.  Couldn't be farther from the truth. 

I'm not anti-Buzz, I want him to do well, I complement him often and all these things are ignored as if they never happen.  I don't get it.  You're entitled to write whatever you want, but I just want you to at least get in the ballpark on your accusations.  To suggest I NEVER say anything good about Buzz, or ALWAYS blame Buzz or don't want him to do well is just flat out wrong.  I'm not going to get on my knees and blow him (I'm stealing that from a poster last week who said I blow TC) because I want a few years to judge him.  If others want to do that, fine.  On the other hand, I certainly want him to succeed.  He's going to be our guy for the next few years at a minimum so we should all want him to succeed.

I am USUALLY very careful when using ALWAYS and NEVER. If I have erred in this regard, please point out an example(s) and I'll gladly apologize.
You say you are not anti-Buzz and that you compliment him often and I suppose that is "technically" true. Since you are a Marquette fan you would never root for him to lose. But you didn't care for the way he was hired or THAT he was hired. You predicted MU to be 20-11, 9-9 in the BEast despite the fact that TC had left him (in your view) a "scary good" team, so it's clear you doubted his coaching acumen. Once it became clear that he could coach TC's players better than TC could, you began to wonder about his recruitng prowess and sustainability. Now that he's signed what is projected to be one of the top classes in the country, you're concerned about how Marquette haters like Fran perceive our program. Oh, and during the season you were quick to diminish his victories (weak competition) while reminding us often what a bad loss South Florida was. And how can we ever forget how you so selflessly gave of your time to scour the New Orleans' board, bringing us the thoughts of the most disgruntled among them. I'm not doubt omitting many more examples, but I think you get the gist. Your rep as anti-Buzz is long standing and well earned.
I will agree that of late you have taken to "complimenting" Buzz more often, though many smack of the "she doesn't sweat much for a fat girl" kind. Most people don't consider it much of a compliment when it's immediately followed by a "so far" or "up to this point". A compliment that takes a few words to say and a paragraph to qualify isn't really a compliment.
I'd like to re-emphasize one point. I would NEVER suggest that that you are anything but a Marquette fan.

Quote from: PJDunn on April 29, 2009, 06:15:58 PM
Actually Leonard, I welcome your differing point of view.  Considering that we are in the true dog days of college bball this has been a pretty entertaining thread.  Once the season starts my sanctimonious side will give way to a more Al Davis type attitude.

I'm so old I remember when the Raiders could back up Al's "Just win, baby" slogan.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 29, 2009, 08:17:05 PM
I am USUALLY very careful when using ALWAYS and NEVER. If I have erred in this regard, please point out an example(s) and I'll gladly apologize.
You say you are not anti-Buzz and that you compliment him often and I suppose that is "technically" true. Since you are a Marquette fan you would never root for him to lose. But you didn't care for the way he was hired or THAT he was hired. I certainly didn't care for the way he was hired but I said OFTEN that I was ok with hiring him, just not that early.  I wanted to exhaust other options first, not hire him 56 hours after it started.  If Buzz was going to be the guy, fine but not that fast. He could have been had 2 weeks later and we all know it. So I don't agree with your second premise at all.  You predicted MU to be 20-11, 9-9 in the BEast despite the fact that TC had left him (in your view) a "scary good" team, so it's clear you doubted his coaching acumen. Yup.  I put my prediction out there BEFORE the season.  I said I wasn't sure what to expect from him as he only had one year under his belt as head coach.  Different system, how would they all adjust, etc.  I was also greatly concerned about the loss of Barro.  Again, why are you ignoring the multiple posts where I said how well he was doing but instead focusing on one BEFORE THE SEASON STARTED.   I mean...really?   Once it became clear that he could coach TC's players better than TC could, (really...sorry, but I think TC would have gotten us to the 2nd round of the NCAAs also with this same team) you began to wonder about his recruitng prowess and sustainability. There are coaches a plenty that sign great recruiting classes with time to sell, Tom Crean included.  That is a fact.  I said time will tell, why is this so hard for you to understand?  I clearly said, I hope he continues the recruiting haul, but TIME WILL TELL.  That's not a slam on Buzz, it's stating the obvious.  Not everyone produces each year. Now that he's signed what is projected to be one of the top classes in the country, you're concerned about how Marquette haters like Fran perceive our program. I'm concerned how many people perceive Marquette, not just Fran.  I'm concerned about people in general, which is why there are many more people outside of just Fran that have made those comments.  But yes, you will see more and more of this kind of stuff from our opponents.  I, for one Lenny, enjoyed being respected by other teams that played us.  That could change due to some perceptions now.  That would be unfortunate.  If this is a one year situation, then no big deal.  If it's the beginning of the norm, then that would be unfortunate.  Oh, and during the season you were quick to diminish his victories (weak competition) while reminding us often what a bad loss South Florida was. Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize South Florida wasn't a bad loss....again a FACTUAL statement, not an opinion.  Secondly, our non-conference schedule was one of the worst we had played since Kevin O'Neill...again, a factual statement based on Ken Pom and RPI archives.  I was just stating a fact.   And correct me if I'm wrong, weren't there experts up and down on ESPN, CNN, SI, etc all wondering how good we really were since we had not played anyone in the conference until late?  I guess they're all Buzz haters.   ::)And how can we ever forget how you so selflessly gave of your time to scour the New Orleans' board, bringing us the thoughts of the most disgruntled among them.  Again, I'm sorry.  It's ok to post daily opinions from other fans about our other coaches or former coaches but not about Buzz....am I understanding that correctly?  Just want to make sure.  Again, yes I did post that thread but you ignore all the ones where I complement him.  Let me ask you a question Lenny, is it possible in your world to both praise and criticize someone or must someone ONLY praise or ONLY critique?   I'm not doubt omitting many more examples, but I think you get the gist. Your rep as anti-Buzz is long standing and well earned.
I will agree that of late you have taken to "complimenting" Buzz more often, though many smack of the "she doesn't sweat much for a fat girl" kind. Maybe tomorrow when I'm on the plane I'll do a little mining to show you how often you have missed on your assertions....especially when you imply that it's only recently.  You're just flat out wrong on that.  Flat out wrong.  Most people don't consider it much of a compliment when it's immediately followed by a "so far" or "up to this point". Oh, I see.  So no qualifications are ok when complementing or stating an opinion.  You can't say....so far my new car is great...it's simply my new car is great and always will be.  It's no longer, the economy sucks ass right now it's the notion that it will suck ass forever.  Really, do you believe everything you write.  You can't qualify a complement with "so far"?  You have to be kidding me.  A compliment that takes a few words to say and a paragraph to qualify isn't really a compliment.
I'd like to re-emphasize one point. I would NEVER suggest that that you are anything but a Marquette fan.

Chicos,

Some people would say "I love my new car" as they drive away from the dealership. Some would say it after weeks of satisfaction and some after months. It doesn't mean they will love it forever.  A few might  say after more than one year of satisfaction "I like my no longer new car so far but I want a few more years to decide if I really like it."

When you give someone a compliment in the present tense (You're doing a great job, Chicos) the "so fars" and the "up til nows" are implied and understood. Voicing them seems redundant and almost threatening to me. So I don't see your compliments as sincere.

I know that you think I have made my mind up on Buzz and to a certain extent you're right. I think he has proven he can coach and recruit and he impresses me as a high character guy. I'm sold on him in the PRESENT. If I stay sold on him in the PRESENT the FUTURE will take care of itself. If not, I reserve the right to admit I was wrong and change my opinion. But I won't straddle the fence in the NOW over what might or might not happen years from now.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 30, 2009, 12:10:03 AM
Chicos,

Some people would say "I love my new car" as they drive away from the dealership. Some would say it after weeks of satisfaction and some after months. It doesn't mean they will love it forever.  A few might  say after more than one year of satisfaction "I like my no longer new car so far but I want a few more years to decide if I really like it."

When you give someone a compliment in the present tense (You're doing a great job, Chicos) the "so fars" and the "up til nows" are implied and understood. Voicing them seems redundant and almost threatening to me. So I don't see your compliments as sincere.

I know that you think I have made my mind up on Buzz and to a certain extent you're right. I think he has proven he can coach and recruit and he impresses me as a high character guy. I'm sold on him in the PRESENT. If I stay sold on him in the PRESENT the FUTURE will take care of itself. If not, I reserve the right to admit I was wrong and change my opinion. But I won't straddle the fence in the NOW over what might or might not happen years from now.

Well I don't give my undying love to a coach, Lenny.  People have to continue to earn it.  So far, he's done a good job.  He exceeded my expectations.   (please note the glowing font, wouldn't want you to miss it).   But yes, I'll add a "so far" to it because he has a long way to go before I'm "sold on him" as you are.  Where we differ is that you construe that as being anti-Buzz, which is not the case.  I call it being cautious and not infatuated.   If he continues  to get similar results by years 4 and 5, I'll be sold on him.  He's a good man it seems, represents the university well though I think some of the recruiting has been a bit risky (not just my impression, but I'm just a hater  ::)) 

I'm much more cautious then you are I guess.  I don't give the smooches out as quickly or the I Love Yous on the first date like some do.  People need to prove it over the long haul.  I guess that's why I'm a pain in the ass to work for.   :P   

Quote from: Pakuni on April 29, 2009, 12:53:22 PM
1. Why does anyone care about the thoughts of a Badger fan who's right about as often as a broken clock?

2. When UW stops admitting the likes of Boo Wade, Marcetteaus McGee,  Lance Smith-Williams, Booker Stanley, Dwayne Smith, etc., then they can start lecturing Marquette on the quality of its student-athletes.

Are you referring to Fran here?  if so i agree with you totally!

If you are actually referring to chicos...she is a IU fan.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 29, 2009, 05:26:16 PM
Nothing to do with Happiness Lenny, it's simply about getting it right.

The thing is that it's not just on this thread, it's as if you ignore the complements I give Buzz all the time which is really what I have to question.  Whether it's you, Hayward, and three or four others, you put it in absolute terms.  I don't understand why.  There are very very very few people here that are anti-Buzz yet you and others portray some of us, including myself, as if we are anti-Buzz.  Couldn't be farther from the truth. 

I'm not anti-Buzz, I want him to do well, I complement him often and all these things are ignored as if they never happen.  I don't get it.  You're entitled to write whatever you want, but I just want you to at least get in the ballpark on your accusations.  To suggest I NEVER say anything good about Buzz, or ALWAYS blame Buzz or don't want him to do well is just flat out wrong.  I'm not going to get on my knees and blow him (I'm stealing that from a poster last week who said I blow TC) because I want a few years to judge him.  If others want to do that, fine.  On the other hand, I certainly want him to succeed.  He's going to be our guy for the next few years at a minimum so we should all want him to succeed.

Evry compliment is with a but...,  every compliment is backhanded,  everything is passive -agressive to wards Buzz.  It's a joke and when you get called out on it you back pedal and throw in a few snide complimnets.  it all has an exception and you take the devils advocate role with everything.  Then you go on the wisconsin and Indiana boards and agree with them and show even more true colors.  Give me this "that is just how i am"  bullcarap a break.  Under Crean who did even more than waht Buzz is doing everything was fine.  Your support is always qualified with something.  qualified/contingent support along with tearing into Mu on the IU and UW boards shows your patheticness.

I can't wait till we pull the upset AGAIN in madison again next year, can't wait.

bablah bablah bablah.  can someone tell me when someone does something wrong?  Untill they do it's just a bunch of speculation by middle aged adults about 19 year olds who got a bad SAT score when they were 16.  They might be bad people, they might not.  They might be good players and good people.  They might be 5 good people who are all crap players and two on the court studs who fight pitbulls.  4 pages of 'who gives a crap' posts with no substance.   Who cares? who cares? who cares?  wake me up when one of them A: hits a girl. B: doesn't graduate C: sucks on the court and costs us a game.  Till then, why post any of this. (not a real question, i don't care)

And if you agree with me don't feed the trolls, just say, 'whaterver' and roll your eyes.  You don't need to validate the 50 year old who is freaking out because a kid from africa got a degree from a school with a high percentage of students on the basketball team.   

The problem I have with all this nonsense is when Chicos says "Buzz better not keep doing this...maybe this year it's alright, but if he keeps doing it, it's a problem."

I assume you are referring to the signing of prep schoolers and JUCO players.  Why the hell would it matter?  If they are good players and good people and they graduate and do everything right, what does it matter where they come from?  Has Buzz given any indication that he will do anything but recruit high quality individuals?  Absolutely not.

You are buying into the perception fed by the old Cincy teams where nobody graduated and they were all thugs.  If they aren't, then it just isn't a problem.  Right now, you're just reacting to some A-hole on the Badger board.  Why even justify it with a response?  They have their own agendas.  Everything they write will be negative towards Marquette.  Why feed into it?

Bottom line:  everything I've read from you is just pathetic, but this thread tops it all.

I was just wondering.  Is Fran and Gerry Woelful the same guy?  They always seem to have similar takes on MU!

Indeelaw: I was not criticizing Buzz for what he's doing and I trust that he'll bring in good kids who will be a credit to the university academically. I was only pointing out that I hope this year is an aberration in terms of recruiting. I'd like to think we'd have a bunch of Three Amigos, Dieners, Novaks, Tony Smiths, etc. to build our program around.

Quote from: jaygall31 on April 30, 2009, 11:26:35 AM
I can't wait till we pull the upset AGAIN in madison again next year, can't wait.

I'm not convinced it'll be much of an upset.
UW will have an edge with experience and home court, but in terms of sheer talent, MU, I think, will be better. Certainly the best player in the court will be wearing blue.
The fact the game is earlier in the season probably benefits UW as well, but if MU can put it all together that quickly, there's no reason to believe they won't win that game.

Quote from: RawdogDX on April 30, 2009, 12:37:44 PM
bablah bablah bablah.  can someone tell me when someone does something wrong?  Untill they do it's just a bunch of speculation by middle aged adults about 19 year olds who got a bad SAT score when they were 16.  They might be bad people, they might not.  They might be good players and good people.  They might be 5 good people who are all crap players and two on the court studs who fight pitbulls.  4 pages of 'who gives a crap' posts with no substance.   Who cares? who cares? who cares?  wake me up when one of them A: hits a girl. B: doesn't graduate C: sucks on the court and costs us a game.  Till then, why post any of this. (not a real question, i don't care)

And if you agree with me don't feed the trolls, just say, 'whaterver' and roll your eyes.  You don't need to validate the 50 year old who is freaking out because a kid from africa got a degree from a school with a high percentage of students on the basketball team.   

Well said.

(http://images.birthdayexpress.com/bexpress/assets/product_images/BD988PL.jpg)

Quote from: Pakuni on May 02, 2009, 12:17:12 PM
I'm not convinced it'll be much of an upset.

Maybe not an upset, but road team wins in the Kohl Center are far and few between.

Quote from: lorthneeda on May 01, 2009, 08:10:12 PM
The problem I have with all this nonsense is when Chicos says "Buzz better not keep doing this...maybe this year it's alright, but if he keeps doing it, it's a problem."

I assume you are referring to the signing of prep schoolers and JUCO players.  Why the hell would it matter?  If they are good players and good people and they graduate and do everything right, what does it matter where they come from?  Has Buzz given any indication that he will do anything but recruit high quality individuals?  Absolutely not.

You are buying into the perception fed by the old Cincy teams where nobody graduated and they were all thugs.  If they aren't, then it just isn't a problem.  Right now, you're just reacting to some A-hole on the Badger board.  Why even justify it with a response?  They have their own agendas.  Everything they write will be negative towards Marquette.  Why feed into it?

Bottom line:  everything I've read from you is just pathetic, but this thread tops it all.

One smart puppy this guy, you are right pathetic is probabbly the most appropriate word

Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on May 03, 2009, 10:44:54 AM
One smart puppy this guy, you are right pathetic is probabbly the most appropriate word

To quote another famous Los Angeleno:  "Can we all get along?" - R. King

Quote from: wildbillsb on May 03, 2009, 02:03:21 PM

To quote another famous Los Angeleno:  "Can we all get along?" - R. King

Did Hayward spell probably as probabbly [sic]?   How did this guy earn a degree from MU?