For the moment, next year's team will have four "non-Buzz" recruits. Hayward, Cube, Mo and Hazel. I say "for the moment" as their is wide speculation that Hazel is leaving and we are currently one over the minimum.
Is this now Buzz's team? Or, he is still coaching Crean's team? Even if Hayward has a monster year, and Mo starts at the point, is it still Buzz's team?
Why ask? Because so many posters say we cannot judge Buzz until we see how he performs with "his guys." Is that next season?
i think it is pretty clear with how we competed, how we played, and the players felt and spoke of buzz that last's years team was 100% buzz's team.
agreed
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on April 11, 2009, 08:22:15 AM
i think it is pretty clear with how we competed, how we played, and the players felt and spoke of buzz that last's years team was 100% buzz's team.
Agree. Departures and injuries changed the make-up of the team and buzz did a great job of molding together what was left. It was Buzz's team in my estimation.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on April 11, 2009, 08:05:04 AM
For the moment, next year's team will have four "non-Buzz" recruits. Hayward, Cube, Mo and Hazel. I say "for the moment" as their is wide speculation that Hazel is leaving and we are currently one over the minimum.
Is this now Buzz's team? Or, he is still coaching Crean's team? Even if Hayward has a monster year, and Mo starts at the point, is it still Buzz's team?
Why ask? Because so many posters say we cannot judge Buzz until we see how he performs with "his guys." Is that next season?
Yes, this is now Buzz's team. Hazel will be gone, leaving just three players with only one a major impact player left over from Crean's days.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on April 11, 2009, 08:22:15 AM
i think it is pretty clear with how we competed, how we played, and the players felt and spoke of buzz that last's years team was 100% buzz's team.
Agree 100%. Last year's team consisted of several "former Ton Crean recruits", but its style, passion and joy was all Buzz. Easily the most entertaining MU team in 30 years.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on April 11, 2009, 08:22:15 AM
i think it is pretty clear with how we competed, how we played, and the players felt and spoke of buzz that last's years team was 100% buzz's team.
'08-09 almost entirely played with Crean's recruits. Players he developed over 3 years. Buzz tweaked some things. No way was the line of demarcation before the '08-'09 season.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 11, 2009, 11:10:59 AM
Agree 100%. Last year's team consisted of several "former Ton Crean recruits", but its style, passion and joy was all Buzz. Easily the most entertaining MU team in 30 years.
I dunno, 2002-2003 was pretty darn entertaining.
You cannot fully judge Buzz until Cadougan, Williams and Maymon graduate.
While Buzz had a hand in bringing in Otule and Fulce, they signed when Crean was coach. Let me go on record as saying I am a big Buzz fan. I also have low expectations for next year's team due to lack of experience.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 11, 2009, 11:10:59 AM
Agree 100%. Last year's team consisted of several "former Ton Crean recruits", but its style, passion and joy was all Buzz. Easily the most entertaining MU team in 30 years.
Easily? I thought that 2003 team was a bit more entertaining....especially going to the Final Four, winning the conference title, etc
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2009, 01:07:10 PM
Easily? I thought that 2003 team was a bit more entertaining....especially going to the Final Four, winning the conference title, etc
Chicos, have to diasagree with you on this one. Certainly, the 2003 team had significant accomplishments and was also a joy to watch. I'll certainly have great memories as I do of 1977 and 1974. But, the 2009 team was simply more fun to watch game in and game out and week in and week out as the guys really busted their rear ends and the offense was simply the best in eons. Maybe not the most successful of MU teams, but an MU team that got every last ounce out of its God-given talents through their hard work and high energy levels. Just different. Of course, drinking pina coladas on the golf course in Orange County, you were not able to see things close up at the BC and The Al. :)
Quote from: Nukem2 on April 11, 2009, 01:21:00 PM
Chicos, have to diasagree with you on this one. Certainly, the 2003 team had significant accomplishments and was also a joy to watch. I'll certainly have great memories as I do of 1977 and 1974. But, the 2009 team was simply more fun to watch game in and game out and week in and week out as the guys really busted their rear ends and the offense was simply the best in eons. Maybe not the most successful of MU teams, but an MU team that got every last ounce out of its God-given talents through their hard work and high energy levels. Just different. Of course, drinking pina coladas on the golf course in Orange County, you were not able to see things close up at the BC and The Al. :)
It's all a manner of taste I suspect. The 2002-03 team to me was more balanced...had penetrators with Wade, a terrific point guard with Diener, outside shooting from Novak, Diener, Bradlee, Townsend, had inside presence with Jackson and Merritt and Sanders. I just found that team to be more entertaining.
That's not to say this year's team wasn't entertaining, of course it was. But I found '03 to be more entertaining, let alone with a comment like "easily the most entertaining". If anything, it's hard to separate the two but "easily" seems way off the mark in my opinion....but they're just opinions like we all have. Part of entertainment enjoyment is also winning and that 2003 team won critical games which made the entertainment value...in my opinion....the best of any MU team in 25 years. There's nothing more entertaining than watching your alma mater win a conference title by knocking off evil Cincinnati, beating Missouri in OT, knocking off top 10 Pitt, knocking off overall number 1 Kentucky and going to the Final Four. That's pure entertainment.
PS Bloody Mary's on the golf course for me, not pina coladas
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on April 11, 2009, 08:22:15 AM
i think it is pretty clear with how we competed, how we played, and the players felt and spoke of buzz that last's years team was 100% buzz's team.
+1
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2009, 01:25:44 PM
It's all a manner of taste I suspect. The 2002-03 team to me was more balanced...had penetrators with Wade, a terrific point guard with Diener, outside shooting from Novak, Diener, Bradlee, Townsend, had inside presence with Jackson and Merritt and Sanders. I just found that team to be more entertaining.
That's not to say this year's team wasn't entertaining, of course it was. But I found '03 to be more entertaining, let alone with a comment like "easily the most entertaining". If anything, it's hard to separate the two but "easily" seems way off the mark in my opinion....but they're just opinions like we all have. Part of entertainment enjoyment is also winning and that 2003 team won critical games which made the entertainment value...in my opinion....the best of any MU team in 25 years. There's nothing more entertaining than watching your alma mater win a conference title by knocking off evil Cincinnati, beating Missouri in OT, knocking off top 10 Pitt, knocking off overall number 1 Kentucky and going to the Final Four. That's pure entertainment.
PS Bloody Mary's on the golf course for me, not pina coladas
Certainly, I'd rather have the joy of a 2003 than the heartbreak of 2009. The 2009 season with the Amigos and all that transpired was truly a season to experience. As I said, just a different kind of season. It wiil be sad to see the seniors one last time at the upcoming awards banquet. Now, lets hope Buzz has a few of those 2003 seasons in his MU future.
To me a close loss with one of our stars injured is easier to take than the final 4 embarassment of 2003.
QuoteTo me a close loss with one of our stars injured is easier to take than the final 4 embarassment of 2003.
A final four does much more for the program though.....I would rather suck it up and take the embarrassment.
Quote from: warrior55 on April 11, 2009, 03:47:37 PM
A final four does much more for the program though.....I would rather suck it up and take the embarrassment.
I would venture to say that very few people think about the details of how the 2003 Final Four turned out for Marquette. That is, most everyone is aware that we made it, but did not advance to the final game. As to how we lost, I do not give that even a passing thought except when I re-read it here.
In my opinion, two things matter in the tournament -- (A) did you make the final four; and, if so, (B) did you win? (A) is a noteworthy accomplishment, and (B) is a huge accomplishment.
Beyond that losing on the first or second weekend is pretty much the same to me. For example, did Marquette, (lost first weekend), Purdue (lost second weekend) or Villanova (got thumped in the Final Four) have a more successful tournament? I say Marquette and Purdue had basically the same experience and no one (except possibly obsessing fans) is really going to think about it again, while Villanova had something worth remembering b/c they accomplished "A" regardless of how it ended.
For that matter, in my mind, Michigan State, Uconn and Villanova, all finished the same -- got "A" but not "B" -- footnotes to history.
Quote from: bilsu on April 11, 2009, 02:43:06 PM
To me a close loss with one of our stars injured is easier to take than the final 4 embarassment of 2003.
Most people don't care about the score. In 5 years will people say Michigan State got blown out this year?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2009, 08:29:46 PM
Most people don't care about the score. In 5 years will people say Michigan State got blown out this year?
My sister and brother-in-law have been season ticket holders for the Jayhawks for about 25 years. They have a son and daughter who graduated from there. Unfortunately they all remember the approximate score and will remember it forever!
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 11, 2009, 08:29:46 PM
Most people don't care about the score. In 5 years will people say Michigan State got blown out this year?
People will absolutely remember Michigan State got blown out, just as they remember the blood bath in New Orleans -- which was much, much worse than the one suffered by MSU in this year's final.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on April 12, 2009, 09:51:09 AM
People will absolutely remember Michigan State got blown out, just as they remember the blood bath in New Orleans -- which was much, much worse than the one suffered by MSU in this year's final.
WE will always remember the "bloodbath"...
Nationally, people dont care too much about what happened in that game. It is all about Marquette + D Wade going to the Final 4...that is what will be remembered.
Quote from: mu77vegas on April 12, 2009, 08:57:22 AM
My sister and brother-in-law have been season ticket holders for the Jayhawks for about 25 years. They have a son and daughter who graduated from there. Unfortunately they all remember the approximate score and will remember it forever!
Yes, because they are Jayhawks fans.....but most basketball fans don't remember. It becomes a footnote.
The really sad thing is that I believe some folks here would have rather lost to Kentucky by a few points and not go to the Final Four. People weigh more on that loss than the journey to get there.....which I find amazing.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 12, 2009, 10:22:22 AM
Yes, because they are Jayhawks fans.....but most basketball fans don't remember. It becomes a footnote.
The really sad thing is that I believe some folks here would have rather lost to Kentucky by a few points and not go to the Final Four. People weigh more on that loss than the journey to get there.....which I find amazing.
+1
There are a lot of "the glass is half empty" thinkers in the world!
QuoteThere are a lot of "the glass is half empty" thinkers in the world!
What a pessimistic way to view things!
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 12, 2009, 10:22:22 AM
Yes, because they are Jayhawks fans.....but most basketball fans don't remember. It becomes a footnote.
The really sad thing is that I believe some folks here would have rather lost to Kentucky by a few points and not go to the Final Four. People weigh more on that loss than the journey to get there.....which I find amazing.
Agreed. Making the final four is an accomplishment that is recorded for history. Nobody remembers the score. who cares. but we all rember being in the final 4.
Anyone who says that last year's team which stated 4 sr and a jr was the first year's head coaches team is ridiculous. Anyone who says that next years team isn't is also ridiculous. I think it's a bad idea going into the year planning on 'judging' Buzz. We aren't going to win a ton of games, we'll lose some close ones, and will look completely uncompetitive in a few. It won't necessarily be his fault, just comes with a lack of experience.
Quote from: RawdogDX on April 12, 2009, 02:25:32 PM
Anyone who says that last year's team which stated 4 sr and a jr was the first year's head coaches team is ridiculous. Anyone who says that next years team isn't is also ridiculous. I think it's a bad idea going into the year planning on 'judging' Buzz. We aren't going to win a ton of games, we'll lose some close ones, and will look completely uncompetitive in a few. It won't necessarily be his fault, just comes with a lack of experience.
Buzz did well with the team he inherited. Often times a new coach is like oil and water and the results are not so good.. So, the past season is a positive in the first chapter of Buzz's career as we evaluate his body of work over time at MU, especially considering the circumstances. Now, next season there will be a ton of talent. Unfortunately, almost as much inexperience (and lack of time together with the new guys for the returnees) to go with that talent. Should be an interesting roller coaster ride.
Consider the main holdovers from Crean.
Matthews - Under Buzz's system a possible NBA future, under Crean's his talents were stifled. Crean's system gave him a specific role on the court, with little freedom. Buzz's gave him the ability to be in any one of the 1-2-3 roles on the same possession.
James - I think he knew what he needed to do in order to get drafted and realized that toward the end of last year. Be a PG, get assists, low TOs, and play good defense. As a result, the amazing D and solid play at PG this season. He would have done it regardless of who was coaching.
McNeal - In some ways he seemed to regress to his high turnover days, but in others was a machine. It's possible a more structured Crean offense would cut down on the TOs, but who knows. I think Buzz could have handled him a little better after James went down - in that perhaps the right words about "playing in control" and "not having to do this all yourself" may have helped (I'm sure he said something like this, but I have zero insight). Regardless, he could have been coached by anyone and the results would have been similar.
Lazar - Talented, smart kid that would excel in just about any program. And selfless I might add. His game was progressing as one would expect from Soph to Junior seasons. I think his work-ethic and smarts will be a huge asset to the kids coming in.
Burke - Towards the end it was interesting to see his confidence build. He started taking baby-hooks (I covered my eyes) and contributing more across the board. I think that's Buzz's faith in him.
So, the way I see it, Buzz had a positive aspect on 2 of the 5 starters with neutral on the remaining 3. Which seems pretty good. This is only speaking about game performance. His impact on these kids is much bigger than the game.
Buzz had them playing together and playing at a high level. The effect of Jame's injury at the time we were hitting the crutial part of our schedule really has taken away the ability to truly evaluate how good of a season MU was having. We do not know if MU would have won any more games with a healthy James. We all assume we would have, which means this years team would have exceded last years team. It is also possible we would not have done any better with James. There would would have been a lot of griping if we finished the way we did without an injury to James. Did James injury ruin Buzz's first season or did it save him from a lot of criticism if we had faultered down the stretch with James. I am pleased with how this team fought to the end and I believe we would have beat Missouri with a healthy James. However, James injury gives Buzz a free pass into next year.
Quote from: Nukem2 on April 12, 2009, 02:37:49 PM
Buzz did well with the team he inherited. Often times a new coach is like oil and water and the results are not so good.. So, the past season is a positive in the first chapter of Buzz's career as we evaluate his body of work over time at MU, especially considering the circumstances. Now, next season there will be a ton of talent. Unfortunately, almost as much inexperience (and lack of time together with the new guys for the returnees) to go with that talent. Should be an interesting roller coaster ride.
True, but often times a new coach is great in the first year also with players that are not his. Works both ways and plenty of examples for both situations.
I don't think we will be void of talent next year, that is for sure. Experience, that's another thing. One break we get is the Big East conference loses a ton for next season.
Quote from: Ruby on April 12, 2009, 12:37:07 PM
What a pessimistic way to view things!
That is a realistic way to view things. I like to think the glass is half full.
Speaking of 2003, Wade put up another 55 today.
I do agree I thought this team was even more exciting to watch than 2002-03 just because we always were the "David vs. Goliath" team that was so mismatched in size that we had almost no margin for error and yet we just kept winning almost every time out until DJ went down. We did have a margin for error in a lot of games in 2003 because we had Jackson on the inside. However, the Kentucky game in 2003 was the most fun game to watch for simply dominating a No. 1 team - the only time MU has beaten a No. 1 in history.
Obviously the Final Four was a much bigger accomplishment, even with the embarrassing ending. But I do think it was quite an accomplishment to come back to drub Missouri for a half and almost pull out the game, just as it was a huge accomplishment to hold the Lopez twins even through 4:58 of an overtime. As painful as it was, it was absolutely exciting until the end, "worth the price of admission" as they say, and give them some love for taking it to the wire. When you take it to the wire, you never know how far you could have gone, you relive the game because just one extra break, like Butler's three pointer grazing the rim to allow the stickback, then you never know how far we could have gone.
In 2003, we earned the Final Four for one of only three times ever - can't replace that - but for pure excitement, the last two years were awesome.
Quote from: bamamarquettefan on April 12, 2009, 07:22:37 PM
In 2003, we earned the Final Four for one of only three times ever - can't replace that - but for pure excitement, the last two years were awesome.
In my mind, pure excitement is winning and advancing. Nothing more exciting then that. Getting close, well that's exciting, noble, and overall great but not as exciting as winning, advancing, exponentially adding to more excitement as you go. 2003 was euphoric with excitement. I can't describe 2008 as euphoric. It was certainly a very proud year, but not euphoric.
Quote from: GOMU1104 on April 12, 2009, 10:04:20 AM
WE will always remember the "bloodbath"...
Nationally, people dont care too much about what happened in that game. It is all about Marquette + D Wade going to the Final 4...that is what will be remembered.
Mike Francesa on WFAN in NY was talking about the tournament last week and was talking about the lack of close games in this year's tournament and how UNC rolled in it's two final four games, and said something along the lines of, "It wasn't as bad as that game where, - who was it that killed Marquette? - that's right, that game the Syracuse year where Kansas destroyed Marquette. That was the worst beating I ever saw in a Final Four, that and when Penn lost to Magic's Michigan State team." This is a guy who just about never talks about college basketball (New Yorkers really don't care much about college sports). So there are some people who remember it. And the sad thing was he remembered clearly who lost the blowout, but had to get help to remember who won.