That's one of the reasons Crean left. He didn't think you could win a national title at Marquette. Miller basically just said the same thing about Xavier (and basically said the same thing about MU last year when he wasn't interested).
"I would never leave Xavier unless it was a place where I really felt you could win a national championship," Miller said. "When I say that, it does not mean you can't win one here [Xavier]. [Arizona] is a place that has done it before, and has a quarter century worth of excellence."
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 06, 2009, 07:24:15 PM
That's one of the reasons Crean left. He didn't think you could win a national title at Marquette. Miller basically just said the same thing about Xavier (and basically said the same thing about MU last year when he wasn't interested).
"I would never leave Xavier unless it was a place where I really felt you could win a national championship," Miller said. "When I say that, it does not mean you can't win one here [Xavier]. [Arizona] is a place that has done it before, and has a quarter century worth of excellence."
uh oh, better get ready for everyone saying you are crazy.
Crean couldn't win the NC at MU unless he hit the jackpot again. Isn't a good enough recruiter.
Makes me respect a guy like Few and McGuire and their integrity to raise up a program and not use limitations as an excuse. These guys are 1 in 100.
Am I missing something? Why does one National title mean it's that much better than Xavier?
Weather, women, BCS Conference, and 25 straight years in the tournament make it that much better than Xavier.
In most cases, the coach is what makes the school elite, not the other way around. What was Zona before Lute? UConn before Calhoun? A good coach can win at an elite level just about anywhere (Few at Zaga, Cal at Memphis, Miller at Xavier). Granted, it will be easier to win a NC at some schools but a really great coach will not be held down by his school. Obviously some schools (NC, UCLA, Kansas, IU, Kent, Duke) basically sell themselves and greatly increase the chance for success but there isn't much difference between most of the other destinations.
Quote from: Ready2Fly on April 06, 2009, 07:53:52 PM
Weather, women, BCS Conference, and 25 straight years in the tournament make it that much better than Xavier.
I hate this whole weather argument. Really? Weather? What is everyone adverse to the cold? It's not like high level D-1 coaches go to the beach and play golf every day. They are in gym 16 hours a day. So yeah that walk to his car in the morning, and that walk to his car at night are the only times he will expierence the glorious weather in Tucson. The cupboard is also completely bare at 'Zona too, almost as bad as IU.
Quote from: reinko on April 06, 2009, 08:01:54 PM
I hate this whole weather argument. Really? Weather? What is everyone adverse to the cold? It's not like high level D-1 coaches go to the beach and play golf every day. They are in gym 16 hours a day. So yeah that walk to his car in the morning, and that walk to his car at night are the only times he will expierence the glorious weather in Tucson. The cupboard is also completely bare at 'Zona too, almost as bad as IU.
Since Michigan State's playing tonight and have won them before, it really doesn't make any sense.
Quote from: jmayer1 on April 06, 2009, 07:57:50 PM
In most cases, the coach is what makes the school elite, not the other way around. What was Zona before Lute? UConn before Calhoun? A good coach can win at an elite level just about anywhere (Few at Zaga, Cal at Memphis, Miller at Xavier). Granted, it will be easier to win a NC at some schools but a really great coach will not be held down by his school. Obviously some schools (NC, UCLA, Kansas, IU, Kent, Duke) basically sell themselves and greatly increase the chance for success but there isn't much difference between most of the other destinations.
I would agrue that this statement is true for even the Big 6 nowadays. Just look at recent history:
UNC - Daugherty
Kentucky - Billy G
Indiana - post Knight
No school in America is immune to the bad hire anymore. Those days are over. Even as flat as the playing field is today, those schools can still recover more easily.
Quote from: Stone Cold on April 06, 2009, 07:33:40 PM
Crean couldn't win the NC at MU unless he hit the jackpot again. Isn't a good enough recruiter.
Makes me respect a guy like Few and McGuire and their integrity to raise up a program and not use limitations as an excuse. These guys are 1 in 100.
But there in comes the rub. Few hasn't even gone to a Final Four, let alone a national title. (Mcguire a different era) It's been a long long long long time since a non-football school won the entire thing. Georgetown in the 1980's? Seton Hall played for it all in '89.
Doesn't mean we can't be competitive, because the non-football schools are damn competitive. But I do believe there is a stigma with some of the coaches that it's easier to win a national title with more dollars behind them then it is at a small, private, non-football school.
Fair or not, I believe that perception exists with some coaches with these schools. Fortunately not all.
That's also why I love folks like Jay Wright, Mark Few, etc and I hope like hell they think it can be done at the non-football schools. If Wrigt and/or Few leave soon, that will put a dent in that thinking for me. I'd love to see one of them win it all (and of course, even more if MU were to win it all).
Quote from: reinko on April 06, 2009, 08:01:54 PM
I hate this whole weather argument. Really? Weather? What is everyone adverse to the cold? It's not like high level D-1 coaches go to the beach and play golf every day. They are in gym 16 hours a day. So yeah that walk to his car in the morning, and that walk to his car at night are the only times he will expierence the glorious weather in Tucson. The cupboard is also completely bare at 'Zona too, almost as bad as IU.
Syracuse (located in the snowiest city in America) = Four Final Fours, Two Finals, One Championship
Arizona (located in the greatest weather location ever, apparently) = Four Final Fours, Two Finals, One Championship
As you can see, weather is huge.
Seriously, it's not about the weather and never has been. It's about who's coaching in that weather. Last I checked, Arizona State has weather just as hot and women even hotter than Arizona, and the program until recently has been a middle-of-thepack to bottom feeder in the Pac 10.
p.s. Tucson is kind of a dump.
Quote from: Sir Lawrence on April 06, 2009, 07:41:31 PM
Am I missing something? Why does one National title mean it's that much better than Xavier?
much better conference.
Quote from: Stone Cold on April 06, 2009, 07:33:40 PM
Crean couldn't win the NC at MU unless he hit the jackpot again. Isn't a good enough recruiter.
Makes me respect a guy like Few and McGuire and their integrity to raise up a program and not use limitations as an excuse. These guys are 1 in 100.
Agree 100%. Especially with how Al turned down the Bucks job.
Quote from: 2002mualum on April 06, 2009, 08:36:14 PM
Agree 100%. Especially with how Al turned down the Bucks job.
I will bet you eat crow on Crean's recruiting. he is lining them up like bowling pins at IU.
Quote from: 79Warrior on April 06, 2009, 09:07:56 PM
I will bet you eat crow on Crean's recruiting. he is lining them up like bowling pins at IU.
no sh.t sherlock. It's a lot easier to recruit at IU than Marquette that's the whole point. That will never change the fact that Crean isn't a good enough recruiter to recruit elite at Marquette. He's not a McGuire, Calipari...those guys are 1 in 100. He needed to get a top job because he wasn't good enough, he needs to be aided.
Quote from: Stone Cold on April 06, 2009, 09:29:41 PM
no sh.t sherlock. It's a lot easier to recruit at IU than Marquette that's the whole point. That will never change the fact that Crean isn't a good enough recruiter to recruit elite at Marquette. He's not a McGuire, Calipari...those guys are 1 in 100. He needed to get a top job because he wasn't good enough, he needs to be aided.
"Calipari doesn't need to be aided?"
---World Wide Wes
Quote from: Henry Sugar on April 06, 2009, 09:30:39 PM
"Calipari doesn't need to be aided?"
---World Wide Wes
That would be logical except Calipari can sell snow to an eskimo. WWW does help currently but it's not like Calipari couldn't recruit before WWW.
Quote from: 79Warrior on April 06, 2009, 07:28:36 PM
uh oh, better get ready for everyone saying you are crazy.
For clarity, I'm not saying that but I think some coaches believe it.
Quote from: Stone Cold on April 06, 2009, 09:33:26 PM
That would be logical except Calipari can sell snow to an eskimo. WWW does help currently but it's not like Calipari couldn't recruit before WWW.
And yet Calipari has a stench about him for his recruiting before WWW as well.
For the record, I agree with you. Crean was not a good enough recruiter for Marquette. He was a lot better when he was selling the State school and Izzo.
Without belaboring the point, almost every good recruiter has some sort of advantage (school history, the state school, personal track record, or whispers of impropriety) they can leverage. I really struggle to think of an outstanding recruiting coach that does not.
Quote from: 2002mualum on April 06, 2009, 08:36:14 PM
Agree 100%. Especially with how Al turned down the Bucks job.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Buck (Raynor SJ) turn down the Bucks job for Al?
Quote from: Henry Sugar on April 06, 2009, 09:46:38 PM
And yet Calipari has a stench about him for his recruiting before WWW as well.
For the record, I agree with you. Crean was not a good enough recruiter for Marquette. He was a lot better when he was selling the State school and Izzo.
Without belaboring the point, almost every good recruiter has some sort of advantage (school history, the state school, personal track record, or whispers of impropriety) they can leverage. I really struggle to think of an outstanding recruiting coach that does not.
I think you're right.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 06, 2009, 08:18:19 PM
But there in comes the rub. Few hasn't even gone to a Final Four, let alone a national title. (Mcguire a different era) It's been a long long long long time since a non-football school won the entire thing. Georgetown in the 1980's? Seton Hall played for it all in '89.
Doesn't mean we can't be competitive, because the non-football schools are damn competitive. But I do believe there is a stigma with some of the coaches that it's easier to win a national title with more dollars behind them then it is at a small, private, non-football school.
Fair or not, I believe that perception exists with some coaches with these schools. Fortunately not all.
That's also why I love folks like Jay Wright, Mark Few, etc and I hope like hell they think it can be done at the non-football schools. If Wrigt and/or Few leave soon, that will put a dent in that thinking for me. I'd love to see one of them win it all (and of course, even more if MU were to win it all).
The last non football team to win it all was Villanova in 1985. Georgetown won in 1984.
Quote from: Stone Cold on April 06, 2009, 09:29:41 PM
no sh.t sherlock. It's a lot easier to recruit at IU than Marquette that's the whole point. That will never change the fact that Crean isn't a good enough recruiter to recruit elite at Marquette. He's not a McGuire, Calipari...those guys are 1 in 100. He needed to get a top job because he wasn't good enough, he needs to be aided.
You're right. We saw how easy it was for MU to leverage elite-level recruiting to repeatedly get to the Sweet 16 between 1978 and 2000. One cannot describe the talent dropoff once Crean arrived.
Imagine this: if it weren't for Dwyane Wade, Travis Diener, Jerel McNeal, Wes Matthews, and potentially Lazar Hayward, Crean would have recruited NONE of MU's top 10 all time scorers!
Quote from: Marquette84 on April 06, 2009, 10:45:58 PM
You're right. We saw how easy it was for MU to leverage elite-level recruiting to repeatedly get to the Sweet 16 between 1978 and 2000. One cannot describe the talent dropoff once Crean arrived.
Imagine this: if it weren't for Dwyane Wade, Travis Diener, Jerel McNeal, Wes Matthews, and potentially Lazar Hayward, Crean would have recruited NONE of MU's top 10 all time scorers!
Do I have to remind you that it took four years for those players (except Wade) AND the three-point line to earn those numbers?
::)
Jerel played FOUR years and if you convert his three-pointers to twos, he'll be sitting at 1821. That'd still be 48 points above George Thompson who did it in THREE years!!!
Quote from: wildbillsb on April 06, 2009, 09:47:46 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Buck (Raynor SJ) turn down the Bucks job for Al?
You are correct.
I was being sarcastic.
I love Al as much as the next guy, but Al was just like most/all other coaches... if a better deal comes along, they are probably going to take it. Nothing wrong with that. This is a career for these guys, not a hobby.
Tom Crean's transition was a mess, but when it comes down to it, he simply took a better job. It's hard to blame him for that.
He will probably do very well at IU, and that will drive some people around here crazy.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 06, 2009, 08:26:13 PM
p.s. Tucson is kind of a dump.
+1
Been there a handful of times. Outside of the golf resorts on the north side of town, it *is* a dump.
I'm not saying those things are a factor for ME, I went to MARQUETTE and I loved it. I'm just saying it's a lot easier to recruit most 16 & 17 year olds to a place like that. That's what makes it a better job.
Chicos,
I'm not going to go back into the archived posts and look, but didn't you once write that you thought Crean was going to bring the NC back to Marquette? I'm almost positive you wrote this.
Quote from: Ready2Fly on April 07, 2009, 09:00:27 AM
I'm not saying those things are a factor for ME, I went to MARQUETTE and I loved it. I'm just saying it's a lot easier to recruit most 16 & 17 year olds to a place like that. That's what makes it a better job.
Considering the relative strength of conferences like the Big East, my suggestion is that you are wrong about the ease of recruiting 16 & 17 yos to warmer climates. If it is a factor, it is a small one.
My point was, side by side with Xavier, Arizona has those recruiting advantages. That's why it's a better job than Xavier. Sean Miller will be able to get better recruits to Arizona than Xavier (not just because of the weather but because of ALL of the factors I mentioned), and he will be the same coach. To top that off, he got a pretty nice raise. To me, it was a no-brainer.
Quote from: warrior07 on April 07, 2009, 09:36:27 AM
Chicos,
I'm not going to go back into the archived posts and look, but didn't you once write that you thought Crean was going to bring the NC back to Marquette? I'm almost positive you wrote this.
I doubt it. I'm the one that year in and year out says the NCAAs is a crap shoot. First goal is to get into the tournament, after that it's about who you play, where you play and the matchup opportunities/obstacles.
I can't imagine making a claim that any coach we would hire would bring the NC back to MU because those claims are typically pipe dreams.
Marquette has been to TWO Sweet 16's in the last 30 years. TWO. We have a way to go before anyone is talking national championships. That being said, we're in a great conference now, have nice facilities, have some recent success to grab onto and sell to kids.
Quote from: Stone Cold on April 06, 2009, 09:29:41 PM
no sh.t sherlock. It's a lot easier to recruit at IU than Marquette that's the whole point. That will never change the fact that Crean isn't a good enough recruiter to recruit elite at Marquette. He's not a McGuire, Calipari...those guys are 1 in 100. He needed to get a top job because he wasn't good enough, he needs to be aided.
Recuit "elite" at Marquette? You think Buzz will recruit "elite". Give me a break. you are dreaming if you think elite players will come to MU.