Just noticed this new blog crop up -- gotta love the Al quote that it takes its title from.
http://celebratethetemporary.blogspot.com/2009/04/friday-night-lights.html
Takes a look at the differing recruiting approaches between Buzz and TC... pretty interesting, to say the least.
I couldn't agree with this post more. I was speaking with my friend yesterday who's a die hard Maryland fan (and closely following the recruitment of Lance Stephenson) and I mentioned that MU just signed a major JUCO guard. We were talking about graduation rates and how proud I am that Marquette has a 100% graduation rate. He mentioned that he couldn't care less about Maryland's 10% graduation rate as long as they win.
I think we've always been a school that does things the right way and I think a lot of us want to be looked upon as a school that has high academic standards, but can still hang with those within the Huggins style of recruiting. I hope Buzz doesn't turn us into what Cincinnati was/is.
A lot of incorrect facts in that blog.
1) Liam is not a Juco - His school was part of the Ontario Colleges Athletic Association, and hence the reason he had to sit out a year - it was considered a transfer by the NCAA. If he was a JUCO, he could have played right away (barring injury...).
2) Butler was a full qualifier out of HS. He went the JUCO route to get more attention - and it worked.
3) Fulce was not a qualifier - so went to Massanutten Military Academy. He qualified out of there, but then Buzz left UNO, so Fulce went to JUCO to continue playing for a year until he found a college to play for. So - he wasn't at juco because of grades either.
Overall, I think the authors concerns are overblown. If these guys don't get it done in the classroom, they won't be at Marquette very long.
It would be more interesting if the author had a clue.
" Rarely did Crean take risks on junior college players"
Trend Blackledge
Jamil Lott
Marcus Jackson
Mike Kinsella
Secondly, in criticizing Buzz's taking of "risky" players, the author is completely ignorant - I suspect willfully - of the many non-JUCO academic risks taken on by Crean.
Dwyane Wade was a partial qualifier.
Terry Sanders needed prep school to qualify.
Todd Townsend needed prep school to qualify.
James Matthews was a huge academic risk who couldn't last a semester at MU.
Lazar Hayward had issues with the NCAA Clearinghouse.
Damian Saunders, if you believe Tom Crean, couldn't qualify academically.
Trevor Mbakwe had issues with the NCAA Clearinghouse.
Yes, Buzz has taken a bunch of JUCOs ... several of whom went that route for non-academic reasons. But to write as if he's taking a vast amount of risk whereas the previous coach took very little is simply not accurate. If MU's graduation rate plummets to UConn levels, then criticize Buzz. For now, let's not assume MU won't graduate these kids as they have every other coach's kids.
This Juco Cincinatti correllation has simply been played to death. A vast majority of the "thugs" in cincy's preogram were not JUCO's. The bottom line is Huggins perpetuated or allowed a culture of thuggery. If Buzz allows or perpetuates a culture of thuggery we will have and attract thugs regardless of whether they are Juco's or Not. IS devendorf a thug? well my goodness how could that be? the beat goes on. Has jimmy Butler conducted himself in anything but a class type manner on or off the Court since his arrival? Kinsella, Lott, MarJax, etc. were they rogues, did they not graduate?
Actually Buzz has signed qulaifiers that were actually eleigible for D1 out of HS but chose the juco route to bette there offers. Does this make them thugs?
Bottom line Buzz will continue to have the proper culture at MU and will continue to recruit high character kids that graduate and represent the univeristy in a proper light regardless of whether they come form HS, Canada, Senagal, Juco or any points in between.
Crean signed alot of Jucos too, to be now concerned with Buzz doin it is a joke. Maybe if crean left some experienced talent outside the big 3 Buzz would not need to go the juco routein an effort to avoid a Depaul like season next year.
If these guys had rap sheets with the law they wouldn't be coming to MU. Fulce, Butler, etc. seem to be top notch people. Some people don't start out great in academia(not until 20 yrs old did I really focus on academics) as long as they are good people I have no problem giving them a chance at great academic guidance and a chance at a degree at MU. It's not like they aren't giving back to MU and as DJO said he's going to leave his heart out on the court for MU to make you and me happy. We need to give in return.
For all the talk of the Mike Deane era being a downward spiral, it sure was a lot of fun to root for those teams...not to mention O'Neill's squads. Give me an undersized Cordell Henry or Faisal Abraham or Lovette or Wardle and I'll get behind them. McIlvaine, Key, Trevor Powell, Logterman, Pieper.
I'll always cheer on the Warriors, but some of this stuff is starting to sound like we're talking about another school. 5 or 6 JUCOs on one roster? What is going on?
Those claiming there is no stigma associated with JUCOs are either lying to themselves or delusional.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on April 03, 2009, 11:48:03 AM
For all the talk of the Mike Deane era being a downward spiral, it sure was a lot of fun to root for those teams...not to mention O'Neill's squads. Give me an undersized Cordell Henry or Faisal Abraham or Lovette or Wardle and I'll get behind them. McIlvaine, Key, Trevor Powell, Logterman, Pieper.
I'll always cheer on the Warriors, but some of this stuff is starting to sound like we're talking about another school. 5 or 6 JUCOs on one roster? What is going on?
Those claiming there is no stigma associated with JUCOs are either lying to themselves or delusional.
Bring Back Mike Deane!!!!
Quote from: Pakuni on April 03, 2009, 11:35:58 AM
It would be more interesting if the author had a clue.
" Rarely did Crean take risks on junior college players"
Trend Blackledge
Jamil Lott
Marcus Jackson
Mike Kinsella
Secondly, in criticizing Buzz's taking of "risky" players, the author is completely ignorant - I suspect willfully - of the many non-JUCO academic risks taken on by Crean.
Dwyane Wade was a partial qualifier.
Terry Sanders needed prep school to qualify.
Todd Townsend needed prep school to qualify.
James Matthews was a huge academic risk who couldn't last a semester at MU.
Lazar Hayward had issues with the NCAA Clearinghouse.
Damian Saunders, if you believe Tom Crean, couldn't qualify academically.
Trevor Mbakwe had issues with the NCAA Clearinghouse.
Yes, Buzz has taken a bunch of JUCOs ... several of whom went that route for non-academic reasons. But to write as if he's taking a vast amount of risk whereas the previous coach took very little is simply not accurate. If MU's graduation rate plummets to UConn levels, then criticize Buzz. For now, let's not assume MU won't graduate these kids as they have every other coach's kids.
Dead on Pakuni. And to amplify on the Dwyane Wade situation, Crean convinced Fr. Wild and MU to do something it had NEVER done before - admit a "partial" qualifier. If Marquette hadn't "lowered its standards" there would have been no Final 4, and, likely no "AL" and no Big East. TC would probably still be our coach with little to discern him from the Deane era.
"I could hoop yo, all-American my age group yo
Grades bad, settled for a juco"
The authors opening quote indicates how stupid the rest of his article would be.
Tom Crean signed 4 jucos that I can recall, three of them were non qualifiers out of HS.
Buzz has signed 5. Liam is not a juco there fact boy. 3 of the 5 were full qualifiers and simply went Juco to improve their stock...if they wanted to play High D1 Bball one only has to review there offers out of HS versus where they ended up to see if it was a wise choice for them.
this idiot makes the assumption that signing a juco somehow means they will represent the university in a poor light i am assumin ghtis means poor off the court behavior or by not graduating. I have seen nothing from Creans 4 Jucos or Buzzes 2 so far to indicate any of his fears might come true. Bottom line is the character of the kids and the expectations that they are held too. Not where they came from. Articles like this are so closed minded, discriminatory and racial that it makes me think the author comes from a juco himself.
The guy is a pure idiot and is simply making alot more people aware of what those close to him assuredly already know.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on April 03, 2009, 11:48:03 AM
For all the talk of the Mike Deane era being a downward spiral, it sure was a lot of fun to root for those teams...not to mention O'Neill's squads. Give me an undersized Cordell Henry or Faisal Abraham or Lovette or Wardle and I'll get behind them. McIlvaine, Key, Trevor Powell, Logterman, Pieper.
You forgot Keith Stewart, Shane Littles, Alton Mason and Zack McCall.
Upstanding scholar athletes, every one of them.
And nothing is more fun than cheering on a team in hopes they can secure an NIT bid ... maybe even make a run all the way to Madison Square Garden.
Yep. Those days were a blast.
You know another really sad thing about an article like this is how poorly an author like this reflects upon the graduates of MU. He feels a juco will tarnish the reputation of MU, in contrast I feel an article like this and a person with an attitude like this does far more to tarnish my alma mater.
My guess to go the same generalizing discrimintory route of the author is that this author grew up in a two parent catholic houselhold in eaither SE wisconsin or NE illinois. went to catholic schools, had his mommy wake him up every morning to ahot breakfast and drove him to school to avoid the bad people on the bus. She did not work and his father a lawyer or fortune 500 executive made enough for them to support their upper middle class suburban lifestyle.
Now in contrast a kid like Monterlle Clark never had a single thing like that growing up in inner city Milwaukee, yet has persevered thru ups and downs and trials and tribulations that would make the author wet his pants. thru all this determination and god given talent he has earned an opportunity to attend Marquette University.
Somrthing the author obviously feels he is not worthy of and something a university so distinguished as to allow himself to attend should never stoop to. Wow, 4 years...probably 5 years of Mommy and daddy's money right down the drain. pathetic that in to days day and age someone can spend that kind of time and money at MU and still have such bigotry.
Lenny,
MU admitted a Prop 48 kid in Gerald Posey in 1987. He had to sit out the year and then only played in about 20 games the next season before dropping out.
I don't care about the Mike Deane thing necessarily, but I could easily get behind adding Key McIlvane or Lovette to the current roster.
"Has jimmy Butler conducted himself in anything but a class type manner on or off the Court since his arrival?"
Kind of interesting that a "JUCO" was sitting right besidesWes answering questions from the media after many of the the games. IMHO that says alot about the kid and what the program thinks about him. That article was "reaching" to take a shot at Buzz.
"Its an honor shared by few teams." That is a significant statement and I hope this group of JUCOs keeps it intact.
And wasn't the McGuire line "Congratulate the temporary"?
In a perfect world, we get 3 top 50 recruits every year and keep them all 4 years. Blah, blah, blah. PRN, your hero TC's recruiting acumen and departure left MU with a very unbalanced team, both by position and class designation.
1. In 12 months, Buzz has set it up so that he has at least 3 in every class so that he will be able to have balance classes in the future.
2. Buzz came up through JUCO's himself and has an extensive network, apparently.
3. JB and Fulce were both eligible, just at JUCO to boost exposure (JB), or keep playing until Buzz landed somewhere (Fulce)
4. Liam was late to basketball and playing lower division in Canada. No academic or personal issues, just a late bloomer.
5. DJO is carrying a 3.2 and was just cleared to play D1 by the NCAA clearinghouse prior to the end of his first year. That says something about his academics.
6. Buycks grades were ok in high school, but lacked the core classes necessary. Poor academic advising, not a dumb kid.
7. Clark. May be the only one of the bunch we are reaching on. Screwed around in high school. Supposedly has grown up and is doing ok academically.
Other than Clark in HS, (and who didn't do stupid crap in high school?) none have even a hint of scandal.
So, in anttmpt to balance out his roster and keep MU competitive in the short term, Buzz has outworked others and found these players. If, in 5 years, Buzz is still relying on JUCO's, I will worry.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on April 03, 2009, 11:33:00 AM
1) Liam is not a Juco - His school was part of the Ontario Colleges Athletic Association, and hence the reason he had to sit out a year - it was considered a transfer by the NCAA. If he was a JUCO, he could have played right away (barring injury...).
That's not exactly true. The Canadian educational system is quite a bit different, especially at the post secondary level. In Canada, the term college is synonamous with what we would call a JUCO in the US. Traditionally, Canadian "colleges" offer two or three year diploma programs, but not bachelors degrees.
The difference between those schools and the US JUCO schools and the reason why he had to sit out is that in recent years a couple of Canadian "colleges" have started to offer bachelors degrees in addition to their two and three year degrees. Because of that the NCAA made the decision to view those schools as four year institutions, and rather than look at each school individually, they lumped them all together.
Liam's particular school doesn't offer bachelors degree, they have post secondary education like prep school, and then the 2 or 3 year diploma programs. Further, if you look at the OCAA, you'll see that the conference is very diverse and has both colleges(or JUCO) playing against Universities.
Simple fact is, if these guys don't work out, they'll be gone and so will Buzz.. That would obviously mean some rough times for the program, but there simply isn't much to suggest that's going to happen.
There is a couple of ways Buzz could have gone...he could have taken the Crean/Gillespie route and laid out the expectations that it will take time to build it back up, and more or less sacrifice the next couple years in hopes of future success. The other would be to refuse to sacrifice those couple years and find guys that can potentially help sooner than later and balance out the classes in the process to make up for the recruiting sins of the past.
He obviously chose that latter. Damned if you do damned if you don't I guess. He brings in JUCO's to try to make the team better and he gets criticized for it. If he doesn't do that and they go to the NIT the next couple years, he gets criticized for that.
As I have already said, he and the Athletic Department deserve the benefit of the doubt until any of these guys fail to meet the requirements placed upon them. If these guys all are pulled from the JUCO ranks and end up with degrees from Marquette University, well I would call that an extremely good thing.
One thought on Darius Johnson-Odom. He really is sthe same as Fulce and Butler in being qualifiers out of HS. Seems that the NCAA clearinghouse took a long time to clear DJO. Remember that class work in a JUCO does not count towards being "cleared". That clearance was based upon his HS work in NC through his junior season and his senior classwork at The Patterson School. So, he was forced into playing at a JUCO to avoid missing a season and a year of post-HS school work. As such, DJO (as well as Fulce & Butler) is not your typical JUCO and his 3.2 gradepoint bears that out. The only true JUCOs for MU are Buycks and Clark. And, those are both local kids. Buycks narrowly missed qualifying due to bad academic advice on one course at Bay View HS. In the end, Clark (who reportedly had a lot of academic issues in his Milwaukee HS's) is the only true traditional JUCO-type player (and he is not here yet).
call it our MPS bailout plan.
Quote from: Nukem2 on April 03, 2009, 12:48:23 PM
One thought on Darius Johnson-Odom. He really is sthe same as Fulce and Butler in being qualifiers out of HS. Seems that the NCAA clearinghouse took a long time to clear DJO. Remember that class work in a JUCO does not count towards being "cleared". That clearance was based upon his HS work in NC through his junior season and his senior classwork at The Patterson School. So, he was forced into playing at a JUCO to avoid missing a season and a year of post-HS school work. As such, DJO (as well as Fulce & Butler) is not your typical JUCO and his 3.2 gradepoint bears that out.
Fulce wasn't a qualifier out of HS, otherwise he would have gone to Texas A&M. He spend a post grad year at a Prep School and was then a qualifier.
Same type of thing for Johnson-Odom. He was part of the class of 2007 out of high school and was not a qualifier. His year at Patterson was a Prep year, not his senior year.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on April 03, 2009, 12:51:44 PM
An excellent point.
And to further that point, Clark won't be in a MU uni for another 18 months.
Quote from: Stone Cold on April 03, 2009, 12:52:38 PM
call it our MPS bailout plan.
With the sewer that is MPS, I wonder how many really talented high school basketball players in Milwaukee have zero chance of qualifying for UWM, much less Marquette, if they don't go the JUCO route. I have no qualms about taking Milwaukee kids (like Buycks and Clark) who had to go the JUCO route in order to overcome their crap MPS "education".
As long as these kids graduate and represent the university well, I'm fine with it. By representing, I mean staying off the front pages of the paper for anything non-basketball related, sounding good on camera and in interviews (yes, that's important....see Ron Dayne as an example of how not to do it). On the other hand, I can see the argument about the stigma because a number of Jucos at other schools (that have low grad rates to begin with) have helped to perpetuate the stigma.
As for the risk Crean took on the 4 mentioned. I'd agree on Trend and Kinsella (though Kinsella was a DI player at Rice). I don't agree it was that risky on Lott or Jackson.
Jackson committed to Georgia in the SEC and then backed out due to their NCAA issues. So he was in play for high majors.
Lott had offers from Creighton (a good mid major) and several Big 12 schools including Nebraska, Colorado and I think Texas A&M. He was also a JUCO All American. If I remember USC was also involved.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 03, 2009, 01:50:30 PM
As for the risk Crean took on the 4 mentioned. I'd agree on Trend and Kinsella (though Kinsella was a DI player at Rice). I don't agree it was that risky on Lott or Jackson.
Jackson committed to Georgia in the SEC and then backed out due to their NCAA issues. So he was in play for high majors.
Lott had offers from Creighton (a good mid major) and several Big 12 schools including Nebraska, Colorado and I think Texas A&M. He was also a JUCO All American. If I remember USC was also involved.
As far as the JUCOs Crean signed ... Jackson, Trend and Lott were "risks" if you're working under the presumption (as is the author) that JUCO kids are by nature risky. All were two-year JUCO players.
Kinsella probably not, because he fully qualified prior to JUCO. In fact, the author uses that very logic to dismiss any notion that Kinsella was a risky JUCO.
But by employing that same logic to Buzz's recruits, Butler isn't a risk and Fulce and DBO are no more risks than Hayward, Sanders, Townsend or any of the other players Crean signed or recruited as a 5th-year prep player.
The bottom line, it seems, is that whoever authored that piece clearly has an agenda - which is fine - but also clearly has two sets of standards when evaluating the academic risks brought in by each coach.
Quote from: Badgerhater on April 03, 2009, 01:30:19 PM
With the sewer that is MPS, I wonder how many really talented high school basketball players in Milwaukee have zero chance of qualifying for UWM, much less Marquette, if they don't go the JUCO route. I have no qualms about taking Milwaukee kids (like Buycks and Clark) who had to go the JUCO route in order to overcome their crap MPS "education".
If a talented basketball player from MPS can get into UWM, they certainly can get into MU. No offense, but I think the only qualification for our basketball players is that they qualify from an NCAA point of view. Has MU recently, or even ever, denied a basketball recruit using standards higher than that? I think we'd be naive to think so.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 03, 2009, 02:00:32 PM
As far as the JUCOs Crean signed ... Jackson, Trend and Lott were "risks" if you're working under the presumption (as is the author) that JUCO kids are by nature risky. All were two-year JUCO players.
Kinsella probably not, because he fully qualified prior to JUCO. In fact, the author uses that very logic to dismiss any notion that Kinsella was a risky JUCO.
But by employing that same logic to Buzz's recruits, Butler isn't a risk and Fulce and DBO are no more risks than Hayward, Sanders, Townsend or any of the other players Crean signed or recruited as a 5th-year prep player.
The bottom line, it seems, is that whoever authored that piece clearly has an agenda - which is fine - but also clearly has two sets of standards when evaluating the academic risks brought in by each coach.
+100000000000000000000000000
when the author and Chicos( big surprise) have an agenda recruits of the exact same circumsatnce have two completely different qualities and "risks". i think chicos is still upset his team didnto get Darius Smith and that we got DJO while they are stuck with Jeremiah rivers. Also since Buzz's Jucos are big time and Creans sucked, Buzz's will now ruin the school. Thinly veiled agenda
Quote from: bma725 on April 03, 2009, 12:59:32 PM
Fulce wasn't a qualifier out of HS, otherwise he would have gone to Texas A&M. He spend a post grad year at a Prep School and was then a qualifier.
Same type of thing for Johnson-Odom. He was part of the class of 2007 out of high school and was not a qualifier. His year at Patterson was a Prep year, not his senior year.
Picky, picky,. The point is that he did not have to go to a JUCO. He made a decision after Buzz left UNO to not stay with UNO and follow Buzz or open his horizons. There are tons of prep school guys (including those successfully recruited by TC) who had 5th years at prep schools.
Quote from: The Wizard of West Salem on April 03, 2009, 02:04:23 PM
If a talented basketball player from MPS can get into UWM, they certainly can get into MU. No offense, but I think the only qualification for our basketball players is that they qualify from an NCAA point of view. Has MU recently, or even ever, denied a basketball recruit using standards higher than that? I think we'd be naive to think so.
Plenty of talented MPS players have had little or no trouble getting into UW (see:
Carl Marcus Landry, Boo Wade, Freddie Owens to name a few) over the years.
So it can't be that bad. We know UW holds its prospective student-athletes to exceptionally high standards.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 03, 2009, 02:19:36 PM
Plenty of talented MPS players have had little or no trouble getting into UW (see: Carl Landry, Boo Wade, Freddie Owens to name a few) over the years.
So it can't be that bad. We know UW holds its prospective student-athletes to exceptionally high standards.
Not to nitpick but I am guessing you mean Marcus? Carl went to Purdue and is now with the Rockets.
Quote from: muwarrior87 on April 03, 2009, 02:29:01 PM
Not to nitpick but I am guessing you mean Marcus? Carl went to Purdue and is now with the Rockets.
He must, because Carl actually needed to go the JUCO route to qualify for Purdue.
Hey Wizard, I hate to contradict you but if I remember right, Piano Bob Dukiet had two guys who were denied adnission - Corey Floyd and ????. Tried to get them into the Communications program at the last minute and it didn't go over too well with the Dean (again, if I remember right).
Quote from: humanlung on April 03, 2009, 02:31:09 PM
Hey Wizard, I hate to contradict you but if I remember right, Piano Bob Dukiet had two guys who were denied adnission - Corey Floyd and ????. Tried to get them into the Communications program at the last minute and it didn't go over too well with the Dean (again, if I remember right).
Shawn Kelly?
And technically, if you believe Crean the same thing happened to Damien Saunders.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 03, 2009, 11:54:35 AM
You forgot Keith Stewart, Shane Littles, Alton Mason and Zack McCall.
Upstanding scholar athletes, every one of them.
And nothing is more fun than cheering on a team in hopes they can secure an NIT bid ... maybe even make a run all the way to Madison Square Garden.
Yep. Those days were a blast.
I loved Zack McCall...the little microwave that he was, but didn't he get busted for pot before the NCAAs. I think that might push him down a few notches in my book ;)
Quote from: muwarrior87 on April 03, 2009, 02:29:01 PM
Not to nitpick but I am guessing you mean Marcus? Carl went to Purdue and is now with the Rockets.
Yes. My bad. I fixed it.
If Liam's Canadian school was a "JUCO" as a two year school not awarding 4 year degrees, why would Liam have had to sit out this past season? Something does not add up here.
Wasn't that explained earlier?
Quote from: Nukem2 on April 03, 2009, 03:07:49 PM
If Liam's Canadian school was a "JUCO" as a two year school not awarding 4 year degrees, why would Liam have had to sit out this past season? Something does not add up here.
Because the Canadian educational system is totally different than the American system and the NCAA recognizes that and deals with it accordingly.
Quote from: bma725 on April 03, 2009, 12:37:07 PM
Liam's particular school doesn't offer bachelors degree, they have post secondary education like prep school, and then the 2 or 3 year diploma programs. Further, if you look at the OCAA, you'll see that the conference is very diverse and has both colleges(or JUCO) playing against Universities.
Fair enough. And I know you understand this, but to clarify it for others, Duram College is nothing like a basketball mill, or even many small US Junior College. They have over 6,000 students, 3 campuses, and a graduation rate of 67%. **
http://www.durhamcollege.ca/EN/main/about.php
** Compare that to Marquette with a 4 year graduation rate of 57%, 5 year rate of 77%, and 6 year rate of 78%.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on April 03, 2009, 02:06:10 PM
+100000000000000000000000000
when the author and Chicos( big surprise) have an agenda recruits of the exact same circumsatnce have two completely different qualities and "risks". i think chicos is still upset his team didnto get Darius Smith and that we got DJO while they are stuck with Jeremiah rivers. Also since Buzz's Jucos are big time and Creans sucked, Buzz's will now ruin the school. Thinly veiled agenda
No agenda Blackswan. I didn't even read the article (I should have as I understand Pakuni's point much better now...I thought he was referencing risk based on quality of the player, but that wasn't the case). And if you read what I wrote yesterday, I'm very excited about this kid and Buzz signing him (perhaps you missed that so let me restate it). Sounds like a great get, which I also said yesterday. I do understand the stigma argument, however, because that perception does exist as many schools who go the JUCO route. UNLV was notorious for it for many years as was OU and others.
By the way, welcome back....did you enjoy your time off?
Quote from: bma725 on April 03, 2009, 02:34:39 PM
Shawn Kelly?
And technically, if you believe Crean the same thing happened to Damien Saunders.
Crean's the one guy I never believe.
Quote from: humanlung on April 03, 2009, 02:31:09 PM
Hey Wizard, I hate to contradict you but if I remember right, Piano Bob Dukiet had two guys who were denied adnission - Corey Floyd and ????. Tried to get them into the Communications program at the last minute and it didn't go over too well with the Dean (again, if I remember right).
OK, so there you go. 20 years ago. And Damien Saunders.
But my point is that MU has no higher standards than UWM does for basketball players. If we have a top recruit, we are going to get him in if he passes through the clearinghouse.
Quote from: eaglewarrior08 on April 03, 2009, 11:28:59 AM
I was speaking with my friend yesterday who's a die hard Maryland fan (and closely following the recruitment of Lance Stephenson) and I mentioned that MU just signed a major JUCO guard. We were talking about graduation rates and how proud I am that Marquette has a 100% graduation rate. He mentioned that he couldn't care less about Maryland's 10% graduation rate as long as they win.
Not hard to believe, but none of my UNLV friends here in Las Vegas have ever talked about graduation rates!
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on April 03, 2009, 12:04:39 PM
You know another really sad thing about an article like this is how poorly an author like this reflects upon the graduates of MU. He feels a juco will tarnish the reputation of MU, in contrast I feel an article like this and a person with an attitude like this does far more to tarnish my alma mater.
My guess to go the same generalizing discrimintory route of the author is that this author grew up in a two parent catholic houselhold in eaither SE wisconsin or NE illinois. went to catholic schools, had his mommy wake him up every morning to ahot breakfast and drove him to school to avoid the bad people on the bus. She did not work and his father a lawyer or fortune 500 executive made enough for them to support their upper middle class suburban lifestyle.
Right on. I'll tell you what these guys are much more mature than I was at 18-22. As a few on this board would testify, I spent a large part of my college life in places like the Black Spider, the Gym, and then after graduation moved on to tending bar at the Stone Toad. These basketball kids "work" there way through college, especially at an institution like Marquette. They've all shown great character. To equate their attendance at a JUCO is just silly.
sounding good on camera and in interviews (yes, that's important....see Ron Dayne as an example of how not to do it).
OK sorry I have to jump in here.
Besides the obvious racial undertones, what exactly did Ron Dayne do wrong other than not speak the Kings English? Yes sir no sir. Never thumped his chest when interviewed. Extremely respectful, courteous, self affacing, and soft spoken. Did him winning the Heisman and back to back Rose Bowls as well as breaking college footballs most prestigious record bum you out and rock your little world that much????
Did I miss something with the Jerel McNeal and DJ? Are they eloquent speakers and sound like they grew up in your all white suburb?
Really a cheap shot at a great kid who did everything right, as did the Big 3. You really need to check yourself if this is where you are going. ::)
In the general frame of this thread I agree. Not a big deal if they represent MU well. But history shows Juco players are a much bigger risk. Nice to see some honest discussion.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Crean now signing a lot of Jucos at IU?
Both Crean and Buzz had unbalanced teams. They used jucos to get back into balance. Makes perfect sense. From this point forward, let's see what they do. I'll bet Buzz looks for more HS kids than Jucos.
I have no problem with signing a fully qualified JUCO....Especially with a 3.2 average.....
Everyone deserves a shot!
and a certain person certainly deserves a shot if:
(now this is the best piece of hype that has been posted elsewhere by the gurus)
DJO is the 2nd best guard available behind John Wall in the Spring signing period.....
That got me pumped just a little....Think about that list!
Quote from: butchbadger on April 03, 2009, 07:43:57 PM
sounding good on camera and in interviews (yes, that's important....see Ron Dayne as an example of how not to do it).
OK sorry I have to jump in here.
Besides the obvious racial undertones, what exactly did Ron Dayne do wrong other than not speak the Kings English? Yes sir no sir. Never thumped his chest when interviewed. Extremely respectful, courteous, self affacing, and soft spoken. Did him winning the Heisman and back to back Rose Bowls as well as breaking college footballs most prestigious record bum you out and rock your little world that much????
Did I miss something with the Jerel McNeal and DJ? Are they eloquent speakers and sound like they grew up in your all white suburb?
Really a cheap shot at a great kid who did everything right, as did the Big 3. You really need to check yourself if this is where you are going. ::)
In the general frame of this thread I agree. Not a big deal if they represent MU well. But history shows Juco players are a much bigger risk. Nice to see some honest discussion.
Not a cheap shot at all. UW-Madison is a fine school and every time Dayne was on camera he sounded like someone with a 4th grade education who should not have been admitted to college, let alone an institution like UW-Madison. It made people cringe, including many UW-madison graduates. We all realize that some athletes come from poorer backgrounds, bad schools, etc. We get it. Here was exhibit A at it's finest. And one has to chuckle at the irony over the years of you bashing what's wrong with college athletics (here's an idea, why don't you start a thread on Buckyville about that...oh wait, you have already), bashing other schools, claiming that schools are cheating in academics and paying players when you turn a blind eye against a kid that no way could get through a year of college, let alone 4 years with his aptitude. The double standard is incredible on your part.
But that's never stopped you before nor will it in the future. Two sets of standards for you. Weren't you just recently spouting off about the eligibility of an MU player just the other day, yet again did you ever say one thing about Dayne's inability to, I don't know...read? Ever seen his Wonderlic score? It's tragic.
I just want to know in his 4 years at UW-Madison, did someone pull him aside and actually teach him to read and write? Because just passing him through each class year after year to keep the grid iron success going did a tremendous disservice to the young man.
Quote from: Norm on April 03, 2009, 12:05:29 PM
Lenny,
MU admitted a Prop 48 kid in Gerald Posey in 1987. He had to sit out the year and then only played in about 20 games the next season before dropping out.
Was unaware that Dwyane was our 2nd non qualifier in 20+ years. The fact remains that if we had not "lowered our standards" to admit him MU's recent past would have been changed for the worse and its present and future would be likely iffy. Crean vouched for his character and Fr.Wild acquiessed. The rest is, as they say, history.
I trust that Buzz will recruit guys with character. He seems like that sort of man. A point on the ACT's or .2 of a point on one's high school transcript is meaningless to me when weighed against that.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on April 03, 2009, 09:44:31 PM
Was unaware that Dwyane was our 2nd non qualifier in 20+ years. The fact remains that if we had not "lowered our standards" to admit him MU's recent past would have been changed for the worse and its present and future would be likely iffy. Crean vouched for his character and Fr.Wild acquiessed. The rest is, as they say, history.
I trust that Buzz will recruit guys with character. He seems like that sort of man. A point on the ACT's or .2 of a point on one's high school transcript is meaningless to me when weighed against that.
It has to be a case by case basis. As long as Buzz and the administration fully vet these kids, it's worth it. But it can't be a blanket policy because the risk is there and if it blows up on them, the university will shut that practice down quickly.
Quote from: classof70 on April 03, 2009, 05:21:21 PM
Right on. I'll tell you what these guys are much more mature than I was at 18-22. As a few on this board would testify, I spent a large part of my college life in places like the Black Spider, the Gym, and then after graduation moved on to tending bar at the Stone Toad. These basketball kids "work" there way through college, especially at an institution like Marquette. They've all shown great character. To equate their attendance at a JUCO is just silly.
Don't sell yourself short. At least after basically living in bars for three years you figured out a way to earn a living while enjoying your favorite hobby. If that wasn't the best blueprint for true happiness it was certainly in the team photo.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 03, 2009, 09:47:14 PM
It has to be a case by case basis. As long as Buzz and the administration fully vet these kids, it's worth it. But it can't be a blanket policy because the risk is there and if it blows up on them, the university will shut that practice down quickly.
You are correct. Marquette as an institution expects more from its student athletes than most, so it's incumbent on the coach to recruit players who are up to the challenge. This, however, does not disqualify jucos or transfers. It does disqualify those unwilling to do the work.
Quote from: Norm on April 03, 2009, 12:05:29 PM
MU admitted a Prop 48 kid in Gerald Posey in 1987. He had to sit out the year and then only played in about 20 games the next season before dropping out.
He didn't drop out. He had a disagreement with Dukiet and stormed off the court during warm ups early in the year never to return. By the time January rolled around, Posey transferred to Trenton State College(now College of New Jersey) where he was immediately eligible and ended up playing on their team that went to the DIII championship game that year.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on April 03, 2009, 11:48:03 AM
For all the talk of the Mike Deane era being a downward spiral, it sure was a lot of fun to root for those teams...not to mention O'Neill's squads. Give me an undersized Cordell Henry or Faisal Abraham or Lovette or Wardle and I'll get behind them. McIlvaine, Key, Trevor Powell, Logterman, Pieper.
I'll always cheer on the Warriors, but some of this stuff is starting to sound like we're talking about another school. 5 or 6 JUCOs on one roster? What is going on?
Those claiming there is no stigma associated with JUCOs are either lying to themselves or delusional.
I come to this board occasionally and post rarely but one thing that is obvious is that Puerto Rican Nightmare needs to quit sippin on the haterade. I really don't think this guy finds anything positive to say about this program.
The JUCO thing is getting a little crazy. Frankly, I see a lot of elitism and quite possibly bigotry. The stigma attached to these JUCO kids is simply unfair and uncalled for. Let's look at this on a case-by-case basis:
Fulce: Qualified out of prep school but due to some events out of his control ended up at JUCO for athletic not ACADEMIC reasons.
Butler: Fully qualified out of high school but chose JUCO route due to lack of scholarship offers again this was an athletic not ACADEMIC decision.
Buycks: Apparently he needed to go to JUCO due to his failure to complete some core courses in high school. Word is that he has successfully completed the academics at the JUCO level.
DJO: Some issues with the clearing house and was ultimately cleared which is why he will have full eligibility as a SOPH. Currently carries a 3.2 GPA.
The bottomline is that I believe that Buzz places as much emphasis on character and ability to acheive success academically as he does on a recruit's athletic prospects. All of these young men, by all accounts I have read, are quality people.
I guess the question I have for some is what would your opinion be of any other student who transferred to MU from a JUCO? Having lived in California for many years I knew many people who attended JUCO's for financial reasons and subsequently transferred to schools in the UC system to complete the BA or BS.
It is completely unreasonable to make assumptions about these kids simply because they initially attended a JUCO.
Wow. Just wow. Have you ever heard an MU hoops player interviewed in the last 30 years whitey?
Today you questioned a kid for good reason. We agreed. But was he seemingly smarter or more well spoken than Ron Dayne there?
Your problem with Dayne is he won a Heisman at the University of Wisconsin. The single thing you hate on this Earth hurt right after democrats. And he led the team you hate most to back to back Rose Bowls. Wow those must've been some dark New Years.
I could easily call it racism but I know it is something else.
Glass houses boy. Your team is sliding them in left and right. We'll see how it goes. I hope all the young men get educated since the odds of making if professionally in hoops are small. Ron Dayne has a huge NFL pension so I don't worry about him. He has also given over a million dollars to charity, but he doesn't speak that well so fruck him and his Wonderlic score.
Why couldn't you answer the simple question? Or post the link? I want to believe in you but you make it difficult.
Can't tell where you are coming from with all the dirty schools. Are that naive to think that college athletics is clean?
The NCAA is either blind or chooses to be. Is Cal clean? Pitino? Floyd? Matta? Worldwide Wes? College football? Anyone
I know plenty of people in the mix, and they say otherwise. Why do you defend them?
Quote from: butchbadger on April 03, 2009, 10:44:15 PM
Wow. Just wow. Have you ever heard an MU hoops player interviewed in the last 30 years whitey?
Today you questioned a kid for good reason. We agreed. But was he seemingly smarter or more well spoken than Ron Dayne there?
Your problem with Dayne is he won a Heisman at the University of Wisconsin. The single thing you hate on this Earth hurt right after democrats. And he led the team you hate most to back to back Rose Bowls. Wow those must've been some dark New Years.
I could easily call it racism but I know it is something else.
Glass houses boy. Your team is sliding them in left and right. We'll see how it goes. I hope all the young men get educated since the odds of making if professionally in hoops is small. Ron Dayne has a huge NFL pension so I don't worry about him. He has also given over a million dollars to charity, but he doesn't speak that well so fruck him and his Wonderlic score.
Why couldn't you answer the simple question? Or post the link? I want to believe in you but you make it difficult.
Can't tell where you are coming from with all the dirty schools. Are that naive to think that college athletics is clean?
The NCAA is either blind or chooses to be. Is Cal clean? Pitino? Floyd? Matta? Worldwide Wes? College football? Anyone
I know plenty of people in the mix, and they say otherwise. Why do you defend them?
When you say absolutely bullcrap nonsense like 90% of the schools are cheating or wouldn't have sat their players due academic problems, you're completely out to lunch. Completely. Take it from someone that actually worked in the field for a long time, something you never did. You have no idea what you are talking about. NONE. And of course in the very next breath when you say 90% are cheating you lay this absolute crap that UW-Madison is some lilly white, clean institution. News for you, they have been on NCAA probation 7 times, only one short of the all-time record.
I know, I know....shoe discounts is no big thing. Your typical response.
You continue to bring up the same 4 or 5 guys with shady pasts when there are 339 DI institutions, let alone all the DII and DIII and NAIA schools. There are far far far more cleaner programs and people then the corrupt ones. Of course there are some corrupt people in college athletics, just as there are in every field.
But just as there are some Jucos that are problematic, they aren't all that way. And the race card....very creative. If you knew here I have CHOSEN to live, in the city and neighborhood you would look incredibly stupid with that comment. Incredibly stupid.
90% of the schools are cheating hyperbole? it is a few in hoops and most in football.
UW-Madison is some lilly white, clean institution Never said that. There have been plenty of problems in the past. Currently the very successful BB program is impeccable. Football? Not sure. I don't like the coach at all and am curently losing interest because of it. I have consistenly said whatever they did to get Clay into school (Maymon) I don't like it. I won't support that stuff.
Under Barry I am sure they weren't perfect my hunch is they were better than most B10 schools and all SEC and Big 12 schools.
If I was a big MU supporter my biggest complaint about the Juco would be ...when did 5-6 Jucos on a team actually work well?
Let's agree to agree...Obama is a fraud.
Quote from: butchbadger on April 03, 2009, 11:12:04 PM
90% of the schools are cheating hyperbole? it is a few in hoops and most in football.
UW-Madison is some lilly white, clean institution Never said that. There have been plenty of problems in the past. Currently the very successful BB program is impeccable. Football? Not sure. I don't like the coach at all and am curently losing interest because of it. I have consistenly said whatever they did to get Clay into school (Maymon) I don't like it. I won't support that stuff.
Under Barry I am sure they weren't perfect my hunch is they were better than most B10 schools and all SEC and Big 12 schools.
If I was a big MU supporter my biggest complaint about the Juco would be ...when did 5-6 Jucos on a team actually work well?
Let's agree to agree...Obama is a fraud.
The basketball program is impeccable? Yes, it's been what, 3 years since 4 guys were academically ineligible and one of them forced off the team in a Bo House Cleaning. It's been 2 years since Bo Ryan had the audacity to question Bruce Pearl's vehicle of choice at a FUNERAL for Homan's kid who had died tragically. If Crean had made those comments you would have been howling at the moon. It's been at least, what, a few years since McGee, Wade, etc.?
Please. Your glasses are so red tinted it's incredible. And there you go again with the
ALL the Big 12 and
most of the SEC crap. You have no idea what you are talking about. Absolutely NONE!
Politics will get you banned from this site
see my PM...
How on earth did Obama enter this thread? Please keep politics out of it.
Quote from: Norm on April 03, 2009, 11:31:29 PM
How on earth did Obama enter this thread? Please keep politics out of it.
My observation on this board is that threads often get hijacked and it is usualy as a result of a pissing contest between MU and UW partisans. The amount of personal invective is also far more prevelant on this site. That said I enjoy a wide range of opinions and appreciate that quality information that often appears.
I can't be a hypocrite here. I ripped Huggins and Cincinnati for continually bringing in JUCOs and I can't say I"m happy Buzz appears to be going to same route. I would hope this is a stopgap measure until Buzz gets his feet wet and can successfully recruit more and better incoming freshmen.
On the other hand, I don't think ANY school that plays big-time football can ever criticize a non-football-playing school for the players it admits. I'm sure UW has bent its standards 10 times for every one time MU has admitted an athlete who is borderline. You can't maintain successful programs in football, Bball and men's and women's hockey without taking in some kids who do not belong anywhere near a college campus.
Wow....I can't believe how these young men can be stereotyped as JUCOs. When did every player who went the JUCO route become someone who won't be a good representative for our University or qualified to be a student.
Is it really the Marquette way to be judging people by a class than as an individual.
Joe Fulce is working very hard and is doing well in school and Jimmy Butler has been a fine representative for our school
Don't these young men coming in deserve to be given the benefit of the doubt. Why do they need to prove themselves as people but qualifiers out of HS are given a free pass.
Quote from: warriormom on April 04, 2009, 01:17:31 PM
Wow....I can't believe how these young men can be stereotyped as JUCOs. When did every player who went the JUCO route become someone who won't be a good representative for our University or qualified to be a student.
Is it really the Marquette way to be judging people by a class than as an individual.
Joe Fulce is working very hard and is doing well in school and Jimmy Butler has been a fine representative for our school
Don't these young men coming in deserve to be given the benefit of the doubt. Why do they need to prove themselves as people but qualifiers out of HS are given a free pass.
Couldn't agree more.
I think JUCO is actually a great route for athletes to take. They can go to a D1 school and sit the bench for a year (see Fulce, Otule). Or they can go to JUCO and start a full season and then transfer.
In my opinion, they are more attractive with a full season!
These are good kids, not ghetto trash. Give them the benefit of the doubt.
I would rather have a Juco like Jimmy Butler on my alma maters team than a qualifier out of high school like eric devendorf. its about character and Crean did and Buzz will continue to bring in high character kids
Quote from: warriormom on April 04, 2009, 01:17:31 PM
Wow....I can't believe how these young men can be stereotyped as JUCOs. When did every player who went the JUCO route become someone who won't be a good representative for our University or qualified to be a student.
Is it really the Marquette way to be judging people by a class than as an individual.
Joe Fulce is working very hard and is doing well in school and Jimmy Butler has been a fine representative for our school
Don't these young men coming in deserve to be given the benefit of the doubt. Why do they need to prove themselves as people but qualifiers out of HS are given a free pass.
+1 Very well stated warriormom!!
I believe in the administration and in Coach Buzz so I trust that they are ensuring the character of our student-athletes. Still, I have this bias about JUCOs that is unwarranted. I think that it comes from the old Tark the Shark UNLV days. It just seemed like he brought in JUCOs, with no intention of getting an education, and won regularly with them. It felt wrong even though it was legal. No facts ... just this feeling. Once again though I think this is different, and I trust Buzz.
Quote from: Atlanta Warrior on April 04, 2009, 11:16:39 AM
My observation on this board is that threads often get hijacked and it is usualy as a result of a pissing contest between MU and UW partisans. The amount of personal invective is also far more prevelant on this site. That said I enjoy a wide range of opinions and appreciate that quality information that often appears.
Wow, really? THIS board? Are you sure you're not confusing us with Scout, which has a hoard of resident badger fans?
This is the board that has its threads hijacked by Tom Crean defenders / haters! ;)