I heard Buzz' post game. His take on the final shot was (and I'm summarizing):
- That he instructed the team to take a shot with five seconds left in the shot clock.
- That way, it was a good quality shot
- He got what he wanted...Jerel getting one-on-one coverage and blowing by the guy
Unfortunately, that strategy with 'Nova without a timeout was
horrible. Then again, Buzz losing track of his own and his opponents time outs isn't anything new.
Quote from: Niv Berkowitz on March 12, 2009, 05:53:00 PM
I heard Buzz' post game. His take on the final shot was (and I'm summarizing):
- That he instructed the team to take a shot with five seconds left in the shot clock.
- That way, it was a good quality shot
- He got what he wanted...Jerel getting one-on-one coverage and blowing by the guy
Unfortunately, that strategy with 'Nova without a timeout was horrible. Then again, Buzz losing track of his own and his opponents time outs isn't anything new.
Not a horrible strategy, a horrible execution. Jerel took the shot to early.
Quote from: Niv Berkowitz on March 12, 2009, 05:53:00 PM
I heard Buzz' post game. His take on the final shot was (and I'm summarizing):
- That he instructed the team to take a shot with five seconds left in the shot clock.
- That way, it was a good quality shot
- He got what he wanted...Jerel getting one-on-one coverage and blowing by the guy
Unfortunately, that strategy with 'Nova without a timeout was horrible. Then again, Buzz losing track of his own and his opponents time outs isn't anything new.
Your blasting on Buzz? Wow, that's rare.
the last possesion was absolutely not the problem Jerel makes the layup and its all good. the porblem was the possesion before. Jerel never passes the ball...a zero pass possesion..before jerel pulls up for a NBA three off the dribble with 15 seconds left on the shot clock...classic Jerel. Then his second grader ball watching defense capped it off.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on March 12, 2009, 06:43:09 PM
Then his second grader ball watching defense capped it off.
This is what was the real problem, we can argue flat or round on shot selection, going 2-for-1, etc. all day long. If Jerel stays anywhere near his man at the end, no way he gets it up and in before time expires.
Quote from: MUBasketball on March 12, 2009, 06:40:29 PM
Your blasting on Buzz? Wow, that's rare.
Let's be fair, if Crean was coaching this team and this ending happened, what would people be saying? Be honest.
Quote from: Niv Berkowitz on March 12, 2009, 05:53:00 PM
I heard Buzz' post game. His take on the final shot was (and I'm summarizing):
- That he instructed the team to take a shot with five seconds left in the shot clock.
- That way, it was a good quality shot
- He got what he wanted...Jerel getting one-on-one coverage and blowing by the guy
Unfortunately, that strategy with 'Nova without a timeout was horrible. Then again, Buzz losing track of his own and his opponents time outs isn't anything new.
Shocking that you blame Buzz's strategy and ignore the fact that the players on the court didn't stick to the strategy that you just listed. Read it again. If he instructed the team to take a shot with 5 seconds left on the shot clock, and McNeal took the shot with 15 seconds left on the shot clock, that's not a strategy issue that's an execution issue.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 12, 2009, 06:50:24 PM
Let's be fair, if Crean was coaching this team and this ending happened, what would people be saying? Be honest.
Oh no question. I'm not just upset because people blast Buzz. I thought that same way when Crean was the coach.
It's sports. The guys play the game. Sometimes things go your way, sometimes they don't. This is a veteran team, don't need to hold their hand. Jerel made some questionable decisions down the stretch. He hits em, he's the hero. Misses em, people piss and moan.
Hell of a game, great comeback, awesome effort. Never quit.
I'm proud of the guys, let's hope for the best Sunday.
They never quit, but they still lose. People have been saying that for two weeks now. SU and Nova were winnable games. They are finding ways to snatch defeat out of the arms of victory. That is coaching. Butler has played great. Acker has improved in a v. short period of time. How come they never saw the court during the year?
Look the quotes after every loss are the same (Buzz, Wes, McNeal) and yet the same mistakes are repeated night in and night out. If they don't execute the coach's strategy properly they need to hear about it. When was the last time McNeal was pulled for doing something stupid? Never. He believes he is above the law.
Look at him when he turns the ball over. His first reaction is to look at the official, throw up his hands and bitch. He's already in the NBA.
Quote from: bma725 on March 12, 2009, 06:53:39 PM
Shocking that you blame Buzz's strategy and ignore the fact that the players on the court didn't stick to the strategy that you just listed. Read it again. If he instructed the team to take a shot with 5 seconds left on the shot clock, and McNeal took the shot with 15 seconds left on the shot clock, that's not a strategy issue that's an execution issue.
No, McNeal didn't take the last shot with 15 seconds left on the shot clock. He took it with about 5 seconds left as Buzz said he instructed. The early three-pointer came on the previous Marquette possession.
Quote from: bma725 on March 12, 2009, 06:53:39 PM
Shocking that you blame Buzz's strategy and ignore the fact that the players on the court didn't stick to the strategy that you just listed. Read it again. If he instructed the team to take a shot with 5 seconds left on the shot clock, and McNeal took the shot with 15 seconds left on the shot clock, that's not a strategy issue that's an execution issue.
+1, the only thing you can criticize Buzz for is putting the ball in McNeal's hands, and obviously that's debatable. What kills me is our leading scorer is allowing his offensive slump to effect his defense in a negative manner. We typically were seeing the opposite from DJ. I'll be interested to see how McNeal plays in the tourney.
Quote from: muhoops1 on March 12, 2009, 07:37:45 PM
They are finding ways to snatch defeat out of the arms of victory. That is coaching. Butler has played great. Acker has improved in a v. short period of time. How come they never saw the court during the year?
Is that a joke? Did you miss the first half? They had no business being in that game.
Quote from: muhoops1 on March 12, 2009, 07:37:45 PM
That is coaching. Butler has played great. Acker has improved in a v. short period of time. How come they never saw the court during the year?
I'm thinking the 12-2 conference record might have had something to do with it.
Do you listen to yourself?
They are losing games because the teams they're playing are better than they are. Is that difficult to understand?
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 12, 2009, 07:43:55 PM
They are losing games because the teams they're playing are better than they are. Is that difficult to understand?
Exactly! People don't get that. Some people put the blinders on and all they hear is "Marquette great guards" and think this team is so much better than everybody they face. It wasn't the case prior to DJ's injury, and it sure as hell isn't the case after it either.
Having said that, there are still some real nice pieces. Let's hope we dont get the seed of death and can still make a run. This year more than any in recent memory is as wide open as ever. If we don't get an 8/9 and can avoid UNC and potentially Oklahoma, we have as good a chance as any.
Quote from: DanceHallPlayer on March 12, 2009, 07:42:56 PM
No, McNeal didn't take the last shot with 15 seconds left on the shot clock. He took it with about 5 seconds left as Buzz said he instructed. The early three-pointer came on the previous Marquette possession.
According to ESPN, both the play by play and gamecast, McNeal's final shot came with 21 seconds left in the game. Given that there 40 seconds on the clock when MU inbounded the ball, that means he used 19 seconds after inbounding, and there were 16 seconds left on the shot clock.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/playbyplay?gameId=290710222
Quote from: muhoops1 on March 12, 2009, 07:37:45 PM
They never quit, but they still lose. People have been saying that for two weeks now. SU and Nova were winnable games. They are finding ways to snatch defeat out of the arms of victory. That is coaching. Butler has played great. Acker has improved in a v. short period of time. How come they never saw the court during the year?
We also lost the player who would be handling the ball in these end game situations. This team is still learning how to play without DJ. Its only been 5 games.
Quote from: muhoops1 on March 12, 2009, 07:37:45 PM
They never quit, but they still lose. People have been saying that for two weeks now. SU and Nova were winnable games. They are finding ways to snatch defeat out of the arms of victory. That is coaching. Butler has played great. Acker has improved in a v. short period of time. How come they never saw the court during the year?
Are these serious questions?
Butler has been getting double-figure minutes consistently since December, and in many cases more than 20 minutes per game (21 vs Tennessee, 28 vs W. Carolina, 23 vs Cincy, 27 vs. West Virginia). Obviously he's seen more time lately because if the injury situation (Buzz said today Wes is playing some point, meaning Butler is playing the three when Acker is out) and his improved play, but you're not paying attention if you think he "never saw the court during the year".
The reason Mo didn't see more time is simple: Dominic James is a much, much superior point guard. I kind of feel stupid for having to point out something so obvious.
As for snatching defeat from victory ... that's an interesting to way to look at nearly pulling off the biggest comeback in BET history. As Navin correctly points out, MU really had no business being in that game after the first half. Kudos to the players and, yes, to Buzz Williams for staying in the game.
The shot clock was at 16 (21 seconds left in the game) when he started his drive. Nova grabbed the rebound with :17 left. Had McNeal taken his shot with five seconds left on the shot clock, Nova would only have had 10 seconds to work with. As it is, they had 17.
Looking at it again, in the final minute it was as if McNeal was ticked off that Hayward, Butler and Mo had brought the team back to a winnable position, and he was going to win it, no matter what.
An underachieving team is leading the #3 team (the previous year national runner-up) in the country at half time during the last game of the regular season, getting word then at half time that they sneaked in with a NCAA bid with the feeling that their showing in the first half put them over the top. The team ends up losing the game at the end 69-68 to finish what their tough to please fans consider the fitting end to a disappointing regular season--a season which half way through the coach decides it is time to give it up.
The year: 1977
Quote from: ecompt on March 12, 2009, 08:09:11 PM
Looking at it again, in the final minute it was as if McNeal was ticked off that Hayward, Butler and Mo had brought the team back to a winnable position, and he was going to win it, no matter what.
Yea I don't know about that. McNeal made some very good passes to those guys in the second half to get us in that situation. It was his backward pass to Hayward for the 3 to get us the lead. If he wanted to win it all by himself, he would have forced a shot there too. He is trying to do to much. He is not a point guard yet without DJ he has been put in that position which is not his strong suit.
Quote from: MUBasketball on March 12, 2009, 07:55:38 PM
Exactly! People don't get that. Some people put the blinders on and all they hear is "Marquette great guards" and think this team is so much better than everybody they face. It wasn't the case prior to DJ's injury, and it sure as hell isn't the case after it either.
Having said that, there are still some real nice pieces. Let's hope we dont get the seed of death and can still make a run. This year more than any in recent memory is as wide open as ever. If we don't get an 8/9 and can avoid UNC and potentially Oklahoma, we have as good a chance as any.
The frustration is that Syracuse and Nova are on MU's par, not that much better IMO. Those were games we had.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 12, 2009, 08:21:15 PM
The frustration is that Syracuse and Nova are on MU's par, not that much better IMO. Those were games we had.
With DJ, Villanova is on MU's par. Syracuse isn't.
Without DJ, Villanova is much better and Syracuse probably is slightly better.
Mo played really well today, and has been playing at a high level, for his ability, since DJ went out. But if you lined up all the point guards in the Big East and held a draft, he'd be one of the last kids chosen. Burke gives his all, but his all makes him the lowest-scoring starter in the conference. MU's quality bench players are Jimmy Butler and ....?
One thing Buzz has said all year - and been right about all year - is that this team has very little margin for error. And, to their credit, they didn't make many errors (USF notwithstanding) and, as a result, had a great record heading into the UConn game. Then DJ went down and the margin for error vanished. For this team now to beat a quality opponent, they need to play at a very high level for 40 minutes .... and even that may not be enough.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 12, 2009, 08:30:52 PM
With DJ, Villanova is on MU's par. Syracuse isn't.
Without DJ, Villanova is much better and Syracuse probably is slightly better.
Mo played really well today, and has been playing at a high level, for his ability, since DJ went out. But if you lined up all the point guards in the Big East and held a draft, he'd be one of the last kids chosen. Burke gives his all, but his all makes him the lowest-scoring starter in the conference. MU's quality bench players are Jimmy Butler and ....?
One thing Buzz has said all year - and been right about all year - is that this team has very little margin for error. And, to their credit, they didn't make many errors (USF notwithstanding) and, as a result, had a great record heading into the UConn game. Then DJ went down and the margin for error vanished. For this team now to beat a quality opponent, they need to play at a very high level for 40 minutes .... and even that may not be enough.
+100000000000000
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 12, 2009, 06:50:24 PM
Let's be fair, if Crean was coaching this team and this ending happened, what would people be saying? Be honest.
"There goes Chicos again introducing Crean into a thread..."
Quote from: Pakuni on March 12, 2009, 08:30:52 PM
With DJ, Villanova is on MU's par. Syracuse isn't.
Without DJ, Villanova is much better and Syracuse probably is slightly better.
Mo played really well today, and has been playing at a high level, for his ability, since DJ went out. But if you lined up all the point guards in the Big East and held a draft, he'd be one of the last kids chosen. Burke gives his all, but his all makes him the lowest-scoring starter in the conference. MU's quality bench players are Jimmy Butler and ....?
One thing Buzz has said all year - and been right about all year - is that this team has very little margin for error. And, to their credit, they didn't make many errors (USF notwithstanding) and, as a result, had a great record heading into the UConn game. Then DJ went down and the margin for error vanished. For this team now to beat a quality opponent, they need to play at a very high level for 40 minutes .... and even that may not be enough.
Pakuni, correctamundo.
When you play Mo, you get a steady guard who can shoot, but give up size, strength, and hops.
The opposite is true with DJ.
If this team is unselfish, we will do a lot better than today. And today wasn't that bad overall considering no DJ.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 12, 2009, 08:30:52 PM
With DJ, Villanova is on MU's par. Syracuse isn't.
Without DJ, Villanova is much better and Syracuse probably is slightly better
And that's why we came back from 16 down at the half and had a chance to win if Nova didn't make a last-second shot.
And that's why we took Cuse to OT.
I seriously question whether most of you guys are MU fans or just people who like to complain all the time.
We may not have won, but look at the big picture. Who are we going to face in the first weekend that is as tough as what the last 6 games of the BE put us through?
Some of you guys are really questionable as MU fans.
Look, I don't blame Buzz for the loss. Anyone that saw the game knows that execution at the end was terrible. McNeal's D at the end was abominable and he drove too soon. Buzz doesn't do that, the players do.
My point, however, was that I don't like the strategy of what Buzz wanted to do. It allows a couple seconds too long I think. BUT....if McNeal would have listened to Buzz and drove at five seconds left - precious seconds as we saw - 'nova would have had a totally different shot.
I TOTALLY agree that the three pointer on the previous possession was horrible.
Perhaps McNeal was thinking of Syracuse when he waited too long and chucked up a bad three to try to win.
Either way, as much as I love McNeal, he can still be such an enigma from a shot-selection/ball control standpoint in big games.
Quote from: MUSig54 on March 12, 2009, 08:50:25 PM
Who are we going to face in the first weekend that is as tough as what the last 6 games of the BE put us through?
Michigan, then Michigan State. ;)
MUSig...
Everyone on this board is a huge MU fan and all want success. And I would like to think that everyone who watched the game loved the heart the team showed today (and during the last five games). But the point of frustration for some is that with such close games, it all comes down to crunch time execution.
In my case, I'm definitely aware that Buzz doesn't take the shots or play the D. But he does put the team in a position to succeed. There's been some times in the last minutes of some key games where IMHO he could have done some things differently that MIGHT have helped the team. I think I'm right, I may be wrong. It's blogging. Who the hell knows. But I'm an MU fan through and through and like 90% of the people on these boards...I'm p!ssed off and feeling sorry for myself for what might have been.
Poor execution at end of games we could (should) win is becoming a habit.
Coaching is just as much to blame as performance.
Quote from: Pakuni on March 12, 2009, 08:30:52 PM
Then DJ went down and the margin for error vanished. For this team now to beat a quality opponent, they need to play at a very high level for 40 minutes .... and even that may not be enough.
I thought this would likely turn out to be an accurate statement when Buzz made it, but it really isn't true. We had extended rough patches against UConn (after DJ went down), Pitt, Cuse and Nova, and we had chances to win them all, certainly Cuse and Nova. Surprisingly we don't have to play perfect, we have just demonstrated horrible decision making the last two games down the stretch. Earlier this year we were winning games down the stretch--Providence and ND come to mind in particular. Now we are executing poorly. I hope if we get in that situation again the game isn't placed squarely in McNeal's hands. Unfortunately, he hasn't shown the ability to make the right decisions time and time again. I don't mind him taking the last shot, but preferably after a pass and some motion. He really hasn't earned the right to go iso and have it all in his hands. Sure liked having the ball in DJ's hands in the clutch...not that he was perfect, but this year he was a playmaker first, and with Wes, JM and Lazar he had a lot of option.
Hopefully we'll get a chance and get it right in the Tourney.
Situation is this:
40 seconds left in the game. 35 seconds on the shot clock.
The question is this: Why not drain the clock to the last second possible before firing a shot?
1) If you hit rim, the rebound takes 2-3 seconds and Villanova is looking at a desperation shot at best.
2) Even if you get a clock shot violation, you only leave them 5 seconds.
If you look at the replay, it almost appears as if the defense was set up trying to lure someone to attack the basket. Heck, I still think their guard was trying to take a foul on McNeal with about 25 seconds left out near half court.
I don't know if McNeal disobeyed orders or not, but when teams do not execute, the coach is going to get blame and rightfully so.
Having said all that, I think Buzz has done a solid job this year and look forward to many more successful campaigns.
Go Warriors. Come on 7 seed or better.
I still think we are an easy take to the Sweet 16. Who will we be playing in the first 2 rounds that are nearly as good as who we have played? Assuming we don't get the 8/9 and have UNC in the 2nd round... but even still with the heart this team shows, that isn't a gimme.
Quote from: MUSig54 on March 12, 2009, 09:47:37 PM
I still think we are an easy take to the Sweet 16. Who will we be playing in the first 2 rounds that are nearly as good as who we have played? Assuming we don't get the 8/9 and have UNC in the 2nd round... but even still with the heart this team shows, that isn't a gimme.
Round 2 we will play a better team than Villanova, either a 1, 2 or 3 seed. Think UNC, Oklahoma, Duke, Michigan State, somebody like that.
Look, Jerel's problem is completely in his head. He didn't see his teammates lead a comeback and think "I've gotta get mine!" And Buzz shouldn't pull him because that will likely make it worse.
He's pressing. He's thinking too much out there. When NBA players go through stretches like this, they usually go out after a game and get massively drunk to clear their head. I am not suggesting that he should do this, but a few days off will do him a lot of good.
Warrior Forever - +1 no matter what, we should have run a few more seconds off the clock and with 5 seconds to go and no timeouts, well, I like our chances.
Hey guys quit your whinning! Give the team and Buzz a break. We are plying our best. That is more than Notre Dame and Georgetown can say with all their Mr. Basketballs and 5 star recruits. I hear no one calling for Brey's or JT III's head. Those team were probably over rated, but the reason they were over rated is because they all under acheived. Maybe one goes to he NIT. Let's count our blessings and cheer the team in the big dance.
QuoteAs for snatching defeat from victory ... that's an interesting to way to look at nearly pulling off the biggest comeback in BET history.
MU had the lead with under 30 seconds. The comeback win was complete and in hand. A shot too early in the clock and a terrible defensive lapse resulted in a loss. That is the definition of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.