I'll say this about Buzz....he's our coach and I'll stick by him. He's essentially a rookie coach and making some rookie mistakes, that's my frustration going back to April when I thought we finally had enough street cred to hire someone with some experience rather than continually going after the young gun.
But that's done with. I like Buzz a lot. Nice guy (I've always said that) and he has a very good basketball acumen. But like anything in the world, experience is huge. It's one thing to think it or practice it, but quite another to execute it in real time. Sometimes those things can bite.
I believe that Buzz can be successful at MU and has certainly had a fine first season. I also believe if we truly look at who we have beaten this year, there is really only one quality win and that is against Villanova. The WVU game isn't bad, but really hard to identify many others. The difference is that we won some other games that might have gone the other way in years past.
Unfortunately, no real marquee wins like in years past. No UCONN, UL, Pitt wins.....the Wisconsin win is great for bragging rights but they are a pedestrian team this season.
Nevertheless this team has been fun to watch, busts their ass always and I give credit to Buzz and the seniors for pulling that off.
DJ's injury hurts, but I still think we lose 3 of the last 4 games (the exception is today would have been a win). The loss of Mbakwe hurt but we managed through it.
The season isn't over, I see us winning the first BET game and playing scrappy the second, maybe even a win there. Believe a 6 through 8 seed is likely. Matchups will be key again in the NCAAs.
Overall it's been a fun year and I tip my hat to Buzz.
I do worry about years in the future....yes we've landed a great recruiting class but Crean always did when he had time to sell as well. It will be the consitency and repeat classes which will define how well we do.
In the meantime, let's get that 5 vs 12 win in the BET and get back to winning.
Mbakwe leaves the weekend before school starts. Otule and Fulce, after looking good in the pre-season, both hurt, stunting their development and decimating our depth. DJ, out for the last 4 games and the next 4. If it was humanly possible to squeeze any more out of this team this season, I don't know how. Top 20 (at least) class coming in. Complete class act. Does he have things he can learn and improve and areas to grow? Of course. Who doesn't. Do we have to see how he develops his players and recruits when he doesn't have lots of PT to offer? Duh. Will we have to wait a few years before we have a complete picture and make our final decisions? Ditto duh. (ditto is for you, Chico. It hurt to type it. ::)) I like what he has done, I like the style he has done it and I am optimistic for the 10-11 season. 9-10 may not be pretty.
Yeah, I think a lot of people focus on the talent of the big 3 or 4 that Buzz landed in his lap with this new job and how easy it's been to coach players with so much experience. That said, I personally think he's done a hell of a job finding the right answers for offensive/defensive matchups, managing a very short bench this season and still working to get some kids experience when the timing was right. Has he made mistake? Heck yes. But I look at things like our motion offense. It's been phenomenal and the past regime would likely never touch that sort of setup. What has that resulted in? A breakout season for Mr. Wes Matthews and the continuation of some great basketball from Mr. McNeal as well.
The ball has bounced the wrong way a few times and I hate playing what if games, but seriously, I think we maybe squeak it out vs. UCONN, probably win at Louisville and win yesterday (Pitt is really, really good).
I look forward to Buzz continuing to serve as the ambassador to our program for years to come. I'm excited about the talent he has coming in and still optimistic about the next few games our guys have a chance to compete in.
::steps off soapbox::
I have to preface this by saying that I really liked TC. Its not easy doing what he did at Marquette and it won't be easy for Buzz either. With Buzz there are two areas that have really improved this year over any of TC's years. The first being that our offense is a whole lot better than it was with TC. We attack the zone so much better. I did not see the second half of the Syracuse game but I am still puzzled how we didn't have a 10 point lead in that game. We attack the zone in the middle and from baseline with very good passing. The second thing that I really like is that we don't hack on the defensive end. With TC we were always putting the other team on the line. Its nice to have it reversed where we are the team that always gets to the line more.
The rest of Buzz's coaching ability is yet to be determined. He is young and inexperienced so it will take time for him to experience all the nuances of the game and figure out what he should do in certain situations. Having said that, I find it hilarious that most on this board think they are ten times the coach that Buzz is. Ripping him on free throw practice and timeouts is a joke. There might only be 2 or 3 instances when a timeout could have been called earlier but all of this came up when he competed with teams that were FAR MORE talented than us. Pitt game is a perfect example. Buzz did call timeouts. Lots of them when Pitt was making their final run and IT DIDN'T MATTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They scored before timeouts, after timeouts and heck they probably scored during timeouts. There were 5 timeouts in total when they obliterated us on that huge run of theirs. Why???? Not because of timeout usage. Pitt has way better players up and down their roster. Rarely does a timeout actually stop momentum just because a coach called a timeout. It is what adjustments you make during the timeouts that stop or don't stop a run and only than if it is executed. Otherwise teams would never be blown out. They would just call a timeout after every run of 6-0 and they would make their own 6-0 run and than that team would call a timeout. But anyways enough about that its been beaten to death.
We also can't really throw all this great heap of praise on Buzz and his recruiting. Lets see what type of talent these kids have on the court next year before we say what a great recruiter he is. Too many Brandon Bells and Chris Grimms that were suppossed to be really good never really materialized for me to fawn over a recruits rankings. Buzz has a great recruiting class coming in but so what. TC had them too. He was just never able to get a legit good big man and he was never able to get two great recruiting classes in a row. And so far, neither has Buzz. To be honest, Buzz brought in Otule, Fulce and Butler. Two out of three didn't do anything for us and I don't think Otule is going to do much next year either. He is very Barro like in my book in which case, no difference between Buzz and TC. But I know the excuses, they were hurt and fell behind and all that but does anyone at this point in time think Otule or Fulce is going to be impact players next year? And what other great bigs are we really getting besides Otule? McMorrow is a big time project and so is Roseboro. Maymon and Clark are interesting but don't they both have some issues with them. Its easy to dismiss these issues when they sign on for the home team but have we not learned anything about issues....ahem....Mbakwe, Amo? It is that these past issues tend to rear their ugly heads more often than not at some point in time.
I like Buzz and I think he could be a good one but the jury is still out. There can be potential greatness or disaster at hand but color me an optimist.
Chicos,
As someone who has been critical of your "doubting Thomas" attitude towards Buzz, let me be the first to congratulate your move to a more positive and balanced stance. Acknowledging some of his talents and accomplishments is a good first step.
Maybe I can move you even further in that direction by addressing some of your concerns/complaints that remain.
1.MU has no marquee wins this year. True, but as you point out, our only opportunities were against UConn, Louisville and Pitt. We played them back to back to back, 2 of 3 on the road, without our 4 year leader and only BEast quality point guard and still were right there with UConn and UL. A pessimist says we lose those 2 anyway, an optimist says we win both. Most likely we win one, but it's all speculation anyway. Anything other than a puncher's chance went down with DJ, making your comment about no marquee wins irrelevant. The good news is that with DJ we were 12-2 in the conference that Dickie V just called the toughest he'd seen in 30 years of broadcasting.
2.You are worried about our future and I share your concerns. I was also worried about our future under TC and every other coach we've had since AL. MU is competing with larger and wealthier institutions. To do so we must celebrate and sell what makes us different. Crean brought us tremendous energy when we really needed it. He worked tirelessly to put MU (and himself) on the national map and I salute him and thank him for his/our success. Buzz shares TC's drive and work ethic but adds an element of sincerity that just wasn't part of TC's makeup. It's my hope/belief that there are enough talented players and parents who will prefer the honest approach. Listening to the seniors talk about how much Buzz has impacted their lives gives me confidence this can/will happen.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2009, 10:13:01 PM
Unfortunately, no real marquee wins like in years past. No UCONN, UL, Pitt wins.....the Wisconsin win is great for bragging rights but they are a pedestrian team this season.
And those wins netted MU exactly what in past years? 5-8 seeds like they will probably have again this year. Who gives a damn? Show me a team with both marquee wins and a solid overall resume, and I'll show you a 1-4 seeded team. Has that someohow become the standard around here? Things certainly have changed in the last 12 months. Our opportunities to garner those oh so critical marquee wins all came after DJ got hurt (against 3 of the top 5-6 teams in the country). How that can translate into some sort of shortcoming of the current coach is beyond me.
The bubble is filled with teams with a marquee win or two and not a whole lot else to crow about.
UL has a win over Pitt at home.
UConn has the same win over Villanova
Oklahoma has a win over Texas
Etc., Etc., Etc.
Beating Nova is nothing to be shy about.
Not to nitpick on the timeout thing, but I believe MU had 4 timeouts left when Buzz called one when Pitt went up by 20 with about 4:30 to go. We ended the game with 2 unused timeouts too.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 08, 2009, 01:37:50 PM
Chicos,
As someone who has been critical of your "doubting Thomas" attitude towards Buzz, let me be the first to congratulate your move to a more positive and balanced stance. Acknowledging some of his talents and accomplishments is a good first step.
Maybe I can move you even further in that direction by addressing some of your concerns/complaints that remain.
1.MU has no marquee wins this year. True, but as you point out, our only opportunities were against UConn, Louisville and Pitt. We played them back to back to back, 2 of 3 on the road, without our 4 year leader and only BEast quality point guard and still were right there with UConn and UL. A pessimist says we lose those 2 anyway, an optimist says we win both. Most likely we win one, but it's all speculation anyway. Anything other than a puncher's chance went down with DJ, making your comment about no marquee wins irrelevant. The good news is that with DJ we were 12-2 in the conference that Dickie V just called the toughest he'd seen in 30 years of broadcasting.
2.You are worried about our future and I share your concerns. I was also worried about our future under TC and every other coach we've had since AL. MU is competing with larger and wealthier institutions. To do so we must celebrate and sell what makes us different. Crean brought us tremendous energy when we really needed it. He worked tirelessly to put MU (and himself) on the national map and I salute him and thank him for his/our success. Buzz shares TC's drive and work ethic but adds an element of sincerity that just wasn't part of TC's makeup. It's my hope/belief that there are enough talented players and parents who will prefer the honest approach. Listening to the seniors talk about how much Buzz has impacted their lives gives me confidence this can/will happen.
My "doubting Thomas" belief system was in full check with Crean in the first two years as well. Plenty of archived evidence to show it as well.
The big difference is that he was taking over a program that couldn't even make the NIT it's last year and Buzz was taking over a program in 10X better shape.
My comments about Buzz in this thread I've been saying all year long, again plenty of evidence in the archive. Doesn't change the fact that I still believe we could have gotten Buzz 2 weeks later if we wanted to go after a more established coach, nothing will change my opinion on that front. That bed has been made, I like Buzz and think he has the program's best interests at heart.....I hope that translates into wins and continued success that we have enjoyed in the last 7 years.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 08, 2009, 01:37:50 PM
1.MU has no marquee wins this year. True, but as you point out, our only opportunities were against UConn, Louisville and Pitt.
Funny that in what some would call the toughest conference in the history of man .. there weren't many opportunities for "marquee" wins.. I'd define it more broadly .. games versus NCAA bound teams are solid games. Unfortunately, that's only 3, UW, WVU, and Nova. Had other opportunities, though, with 'Cuse, Dayton, and Tenn.
Add another NCAA team, Northern Iowa.
Shoot, I forgot our marquee win against Northern Iowa. That deserves a banner!
I think its a little harsh to say this team hasn't won any marque games. You've got to judge the teams at the time we played them. Based on that we have beaten 5 top 25 teams this year. A few years ago if we got 1 or 2 wins against the top 25 we would have cherished those wins, they would have made our season. Expectations have risen which is good but lets not lose perspective.
I also don't think you can say that with DJ we still lose 3 out of 4. This team had consistently exceeded expectations (with the exception of @ South Florida). I'm not one of those who thought MU was going to win the BE title but I still believe they win 2 out of those final 4 with DJ. I think DJ's absence account for a 10 point differential in each of those games taking into account his defense, the opens shots he got for others, his game control not to mention clutch points. DJ's loss drops us from a top 15 team to a top 30 team and that doesn't get it done in the BE this year
Quote from: Norm on March 08, 2009, 02:10:49 PM
Not to nitpick on the timeout thing, but I believe MU had 4 timeouts left when Buzz called one when Pitt went up by 20 with about 4:30 to go. We ended the game with 2 unused timeouts too.
Wrong. Go to ESPN and check play by play. 5 timeouts, 3 by Buzz and 2 official (under 8 and under 4) were used during the monster run but I will go check my post from another site and cut and paste if I am feeling sporty about it. He used his timeouts well before the score was 20 and they didn't help.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on March 08, 2009, 04:39:03 PM
I think its a little harsh to say this team hasn't won any marque games. You've got to judge the teams at the time we played them. Based on that we have beaten 5 top 25 teams this year. A few years ago if we got 1 or 2 wins against the top 25 we would have cherished those wins, they would have made our season. Expectations have risen which is good but lets not lose perspective.
I also don't think you can say that with DJ we still lose 3 out of 4. This team had consistently exceeded expectations (with the exception of @ South Florida). I'm not one of those who thought MU was going to win the BE title but I still believe they win 2 out of those final 4 with DJ. I think DJ's absence account for a 10 point differential in each of those games taking into account his defense, the opens shots he got for others, his game control not to mention clutch points. DJ's loss drops us from a top 15 team to a top 30 team and that doesn't get it done in the BE this year
I've never bought into that line of thinking, at least not early. Notre Dame was picked by one coach to win the Big East, Georgetown to go to the NCAAs, Tennessee to win the SEC, etc.....those were all early season predictions when rankings are based on reputation not on reality.
We beat a "ranked" Wisconsin team that clearly has proven all year long they don't belong in the rankings. We lost to a "ranked" Tennessee team that clearly has shown they don't belong there either. I think our best win was against Villanova. I would have argued our second best win would have been yesterday.
We have some good wins, don't get me wrong, but other than the Nova win early in the season, it's hard to find any marquee wins in my opinion. Beating a team ranked in the beginning of the season doesn't tell me nearly as much as beating one at the end of the season when a significant number of games have actually been played and not just a bunch of hype.
I was anti-MU over the hire and a year later I am still anti administration. With that said, I like Buzz as a person more than I like him as a coach. This season was a blast and I really, really enjoyed it. A couple of games, like Providence and ND, we would have lost in past years were fun wins. We really had no great win and only one bad loss. This team was more fun to watch then any team in years for me.
Overall I think Buzz has a tough road ahead of him at MU. The BE is a bear of a conference and school's like MU need to stay steady year in year out to do well in it. Next year is going to be an extremely important season for the program. We can struggle but if we suck it will be very hard going forward. A year ago I said I thought Buzz was in over his head and 333 days later I feel the same way. Only difference is that I really like him and hope I am wrong and he delivers the goods.
Say what you want about his coaching, he is a real guy and you cannot help but like him.
Buzz is in over his head? That may the dumbest post I've seen all weekend and there have been some doozies. To date, his coaching and his recruiting have exceeded expectations, and yet you say he's in over his head? Crazy.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2009, 10:13:01 PM
I'll say this about Buzz....he's our coach and I'll stick by him. He's essentially a rookie coach and making some rookie mistakes, that's my frustration going back to April when I thought we finally had enough street cred to hire someone with some experience rather than continually going after the young gun.
But that's done with. I like Buzz a lot. Nice guy (I've always said that) and he has a very good basketball acumen. But like anything in the world, experience is huge. It's one thing to think it or practice it, but quite another to execute it in real time. Sometimes those things can bite.
I believe that Buzz can be successful at MU and has certainly had a fine first season. I also believe if we truly look at who we have beaten this year, there is really only one quality win and that is against Villanova. The WVU game isn't bad, but really hard to identify many others. The difference is that we won some other games that might have gone the other way in years past.
Unfortunately, no real marquee wins like in years past. No UCONN, UL, Pitt wins.....the Wisconsin win is great for bragging rights but they are a pedestrian team this season.
Nevertheless this team has been fun to watch, busts their ass always and I give credit to Buzz and the seniors for pulling that off.
DJ's injury hurts, but I still think we lose 3 of the last 4 games (the exception is today would have been a win). The loss of Mbakwe hurt but we managed through it.
The season isn't over, I see us winning the first BET game and playing scrappy the second, maybe even a win there. Believe a 6 through 8 seed is likely. Matchups will be key again in the NCAAs.
Overall it's been a fun year and I tip my hat to Buzz.
I do worry about years in the future....yes we've landed a great recruiting class but Crean always did when he had time to sell as well. It will be the consitency and repeat classes which will define how well we do.
In the meantime, let's get that 5 vs 12 win in the BET and get back to winning.
Can we all agree that number of posts has nothing to do with credibility ;D
Chicos
I think you misunderstood my post. I was not talking about pre-season rankings. Those are nonsense.
At the time MU beat UW, Nova, West VA, @ND, Georgetown they were all ranked in the top 25.
Would wins against 2, 3 and 6 have been bigger, of course. But the topic of your thread was Buzz and if you think that we should be disappointed because Buzz could't pull off a win against 2,3 or 6 two on the road, after losing a player as critical as DJ then you are tough to please.
I'm disappointed but not with Buzz. I'm disappointed that MU seems to be unfairly bitten by the season ending injury bug with Travis, then Jerel and then DJ 3 of the last 5 years.
Quote from: NotAnAlum on March 08, 2009, 10:00:34 PM
Chicos
I think you misunderstood my post. I was not talking about pre-season rankings. Those are nonsense.
At the time MU beat UW, Nova, West VA, @ND, Georgetown they were all ranked in the top 25.
Would wins against 2, 3 and 6 have been bigger, of course. But the topic of your thread was Buzz and if you think that we should be disappointed because Buzz could't pull off a win against 2,3 or 6 two on the road, after losing a player as critical as DJ then you are tough to please.
I'm disappointed but not with Buzz. I'm disappointed that MU seems to be unfairly bitten by the season ending injury bug with Travis, then Jerel and then DJ 3 of the last 5 years.
I think I get you, but I guess my point was that just because we beat teams that were ranked at the time, it is clear that all those teams never should have been ranked in the first place sans Nova. I get that they were ranked when we played them, but their team performances have shown just how wrong those rankings were. Those wins are nice, but nothing earth shattering in my opinion. Those teams seemed flawed to me when we played them and only proved itself to be true as the season wore on.
The injury bug has definitely been a bummer, no doubt about it.
Pre-season, I had MU going 22-9, 11-7. We won the 1st half of the BE...and then hit our wall as I expected due to height match-ups. Buzz had to overcome late transfer of Mbawke...Otule, Fulce, McM, and DJ injuries. Had to rerecruit 2008, nailed 2009 and has started 2010/11 classes. Many bumps and bruises too as he moves up the learning curve which I won't repeat. Guy is willing to admit he was wrong or team played poorly--which means he is learning. Academics on track. Good fit for MU. Meets++ is my grade....bordering on exceeds.
Here are the records of the others: Miller (24-6 with a strong returning team in a weaker conf.), Bennett (16-14, rebuilding), Brownell (20-13), Lowry (13-18), Keno Davis (18-12 with 6 seniors), Gregory (25-6, see Miller), McKillop (26-6 best player, weak conference), and Drew (17-13). After Miller, Buzz ain't looking too bad. Next two years of rebuilding will tell...but Buzz has dealt with a lot of adversity that a lot of these guys didn't want to touch...yet have fared marginally with at their places in rebuilding years.
Buzz is not Greg Shimon over his head, but he is in over his head. Hopefully he will be quick study and get the job done.
Quote from: GregShimonFor2 on March 08, 2009, 08:30:03 PM
Buzz is in over his head? That may the dumbest post I've seen all weekend and there have been some doozies. To date, his coaching and his recruiting have exceeded expectations, and yet you say he's in over his head? Crazy.
In all fairness, the recruiting part of your statement is far from resolved. Only time will tell if his recruits cut it or not. The only player we have seen enough of to judge is Butler, and he seems like a solid sixth man of the bench. Pleny of question marks ahead.
This thread is going to get a lot more volatile if MU gets bounced in the 1st round, or beaten badly in the second round of the tournament.
There will be another "fire buzz" thread.
I think this just confirms for me that coaches are polarizing figures, and there is always going to be 10% of the fan base that hates a coach no matter what he does, and 10% that thinks the coach walks on water.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 08, 2009, 02:45:22 PM
My comments about Buzz in this thread I've been saying all year long, again plenty of evidence in the archive. Doesn't change the fact that I still believe we could have gotten Buzz 2 weeks later if we wanted to go after a more established coach, nothing will change my opinion on that front. That bed has been made, I like Buzz and think he has the program's best interests at heart.....I hope that translates into wins and continued success that we have enjoyed in the last 7 years.
We were not in a position to get into an extended coaching search. We had commitments who wanted out right away and I don't think an additional 2 or 3 week search would have changed who we were going to hire. They interviewed Buzz. They liked Buzz. They made a run at Bennett. Bennett said no. We hired Buzz.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 08, 2009, 10:20:13 PM
I think I get you, but I guess my point was that just because we beat teams that were ranked at the time, it is clear that all those teams never should have been ranked in the first place sans Nova. I get that they were ranked when we played them, but their team performances have shown just how wrong those rankings were. Those wins are nice, but nothing earth shattering in my opinion. Those teams seemed flawed to me when we played them and only proved itself to be true as the season wore on.
The injury bug has definitely been a bummer, no doubt about it.
Sorry but you kind of have to take into consideration what a teams ranking was when you played them. Look at us for most of the year we were a top 25 team. We lose DJ and now we are probably outside the top 25. The season is a long season and their are ebbs and flows throughout.
You poo poo our win this year against Nova but it is just as good as any win we had last year. They are a top 12 teams this year, are they not? The rest of our wins last year were really no better than any of our wins this year. We beat a Pitt team at home when they were in the middle of struggling to a 2-4 February record and a Villanova team that barely made the tourny and probably compares similar to a Providence team of this year. Add in blowout losses to Louisville twice and UConn when we had a deeper bench and more height and this year is every bit as good as last year. So if this year has been nothing special with no great marquee wins, the exact same thing can be said about last year.
Quote from: Pardner on March 08, 2009, 10:23:32 PM
Academics on track.
This is the most concerning to me, and IMO the only red-flag. In 2010, we'll have 4 JuCos on the roster. This is a school that was rumored to not admit Carl Landy b/c we already had Marcus Jackson and we wanted to see how that would go. These guys might all be choir boys but that doesn't mean they'll all graduate. MU's curriculum is light years ahead of a community college curriculum. And I'm not even mentioning the perceived inferiority of southern school systems (Mike Slive touched on this in a NY Times article).
Quote from: Pardner on March 08, 2009, 10:23:32 PM
Here are the records of the others: Miller (24-6 with a strong returning team in a weaker conf.), Bennett (16-14, rebuilding), Brownell (20-13), Lowry (13-18), Keno Davis (18-12 with 6 seniors), Gregory (25-6, see Miller), McKillop (26-6 best player, weak conference), and Drew (17-13). After Miller, Buzz ain't looking too bad. Next two years of rebuilding will tell...but Buzz has dealt with a lot of adversity that a lot of these guys didn't want to touch...yet have fared marginally with at their places in rebuilding years.
If Buzz turns down UNO, stays with Billy G all the way thru A&M and one year at UK, all of a sudden we hired the TC of 2008. What if TC took EMU in 1997, quit and joined Deane's staff in '98 (Jud connection)? Buzz's biggest fault may be taking the first job offered.