Sorry folks, but I don't think it was DJ. I think it was that this team was never as good as we thought they were given a full season of results. The best win? Probably Villanova on 1/1. The other wins that seemed big at the time (Georgetown, Wisconsin, WVU, ND, etc.) don't really seem that big in retrospect.
My feeling is that this team is marginally better than last year's. We will likely win two more this year...one in each of the remaining tournaments. I think that the talk that this team might have been a final four team with DJ is pure folly.
And for all of Wes' talk about Buzz "unleashing" them this year? Look at those shooting percentages against good competition. Just maybe TC knew what he was doing.
Absolutely correct that this team wasn't that good. Also, absolutely wrong about Crean. He knew nothing of what he was doing except to look out for #1 in the process. In fact, he's the reason this team wasn't that good. Terrible job of recruiting left the cupboard bare.
This team overacheived largely because it was senior laden.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 07, 2009, 09:22:51 PM
Absolutely correct that this team wasn't that good. Also, absolutely wrong about Crean. He knew nothing of what he was doing except to look out for #1 in the process. In fact, he's the reason this team wasn't that good. Terrible job of recruiting left the cupboard bare.
This team overacheived largely because it was senior laden.
Yes, this team overachieved because it was senior laden. The idea that Crean "knew nothing of what he was doing" is laughable. Gimme a break. TC was a very good coach. Buzz has yet to prove that he is at that level yet.
While I agree mostly, we battled vs. some of the best teams and now that James is gone I think it put us over the edge. We could have lost them all with James too, but I really think we could have pulled off at least UL and SU with Dominic. Unfortunately I do see us winning two more games like you mentioned but I like to try to be optimistic.
James absolutely makes the difference. What made MU special was 3 guards all of a All-Big East caliber, who else can say that? We were a match-up nightmare for so many teams. Toss in Lazar and you have 4 guys that can get 20 from the perimeter. That negates no big man. Now we're just a good team with 2 great guards and a big. We're much, much easier to defend. DJ was almost a big man in the sense that he routinely got in the paint and was an outstanding rebounder.
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on March 08, 2009, 03:07:18 PM
James absolutely makes the difference. What made MU special was 3 guards all of a All-Big East caliber, who else can say that? We were a match-up nightmare for so many teams. Toss in Lazar and you have 4 guys that can get 20 from the perimeter. That negates no big man. Now we're just a good team with 2 great guards and a big. We're much, much easier to defend. DJ was almost a big man in the sense that he routinely got in the paint and was an outstanding rebounder.
Well said. The way the stretch run played out really illustrated what Buzz said all year. We had little margin for error with the way the team was made up. DJ going down took away that margin, and the net effect has left us coming up on the short end. Plain and simple, DJ took a lot of the heat and was a big factor in Wes, Jerel and Lazar getting good looks and the offense flowing pretty well all year. It seems Wes and Jerel have to work so hard now for every look that their shooting seems to struggle and they've ended up settling for more threes. The penetration lanes aren't there like they were when DJ would get in the seams and kick out to those guys for an open shot or a drive into a compromised D.
Unfortunately, it will be easy now to say this team wasn't all that good, and regrettably they won't have an opportunity to rebut it.
This is one of many threads I've read that tries to make the argument that this team is not that good. The argument is totally without merit. Of course the team is not as good without DJ. He is not only a starter, he is one of our key players. However, even without him, we played well against some of the best teams in the country. This was a good team, with a chance maybe to do some great things. With the injuries the team suffered, it just was not to be.
There seem to be a lot of people trying to use this season's peformance to fit preconceived notions about either Buzz and his hiring (the "process"); or their preconceived notions about Tom Crean; or both.
If you take out the agendas, this year's team should have been expected to be about the same as last year assuming that the caliber of coaching is about equal.
Consider the net plusses and minuses for the team starting the year:
On the plus side, Hayward, James, McNeal and Matthews are all a year older and more mature.
On the minus side, we lost a good deal of our front line with Barro, Mbakwe and Otule.
On balance, those two situations should have been expected to net themselves out with the result being no significant change.
Well guess what? We showed no significant change over last year!
In fact, with one or two exceptions we lost to the same teams we lost to last year, and beat the same teams we beat last year.
We're not better. We're not worse. To paraphrase Dennis Green, Marquette is exactly what we thought they'd be.
Quote from: The Wizard of West Salem on March 07, 2009, 09:06:35 PM
And for all of Wes' talk about Buzz "unleashing" them this year? Look at those shooting percentages against good competition. Just maybe TC knew what he was doing.
You say look at the shooting percentages against great competition...I say look at the shooting percentages without a great PG running the offense. This team was absolutely as good as we thought they were Sweet 16 with Final 4 potential if they stayed healthy.
Its a given that better defenses most likely contributed to the decrease in efficiency of McNeal and Matthews, but it was the loss of James was the main reason.
Quote from: The Wizard of West Salem on March 07, 2009, 09:35:34 PM
Yes, this team overachieved because it was senior laden. The idea that Crean "knew nothing of what he was doing" is laughable. Gimme a break. TC was a very good coach. Buzz has yet to prove that he is at that level yet.
It's funny how a team with senior guards "overachieves" every year in march. Every year a team that "isn't that good" who happens to have strong senior guard play makes an elite 8 and it is an over-acheivement every year. Every time it's luck because teams with good seniors who know how to win are an easy out. ::)
We are only slightly better than a team that lost in OT on a prayer to a team with two 7 footers who were both lottery picks. We have DJ and we win 2 of the last 4 and get a much better seed, there are several likely 2 and 3 seeds I think we own with him.
Agree with you on crean though. I don't understand how a guy who won so many games for us over years is now assumed to be worse than the new guy. Who won about the same number of games with the same team for one year.
I have to disagree. This team with DJ had a real good chance of beating Louisville (loss in the last minute) and Syracuse (loss in overtime) and everyone would have been extremely pleased with us going 3-2 through the gauntlet.
Were we final four material? Not legit final four contenders but under the right circumstances and matchups we at least had a chance.
I personally fell that you completely under value DJ's value, especially on the defensive end as he does make at least 4 or 5 possession difference on the offensive and defensive end. The only way one can think having DJ did not make a difference was if they believe Acker is as good as DJ. I would find it hard to believe that anyone would think that. So if you think DJ is better than Acker than the extra 1 or 2 possessions would have resulted in 2 more wins and we wouldn't be having topics like these.
I think the majority of us with the most realistic preconceived notions realize that we won't be able to judge Buzz truly until a year or two from now.
We (I) can be ticked at him all I want for some of the terrible decisions he's made. But at the same time, wihtout a track record we don't know if this just shows a one-time mistake(s), or the fact he's in over his head.
I still say this goes to show that had they hired an experienced, established coach we - fans, bloggers - would not have that excuse to fall back on. "Buzz is learning", "give him some time", etc. Like I said at the time. This is the Big East people. It's not a job to grow into or learn as you go. Two-three 'down' years for MU could be almost fatal. And with that much on the line, why chance it. But...this arguments been had for a year now.
Soooooooooooo...that being said, I'm not about to label Buzz a failure or success yet. I don't know how anyone can. We have to wait and see what he does w/his own guys.
Quote from: RawdogDX on March 09, 2009, 11:00:30 AM
Agree with you on crean though. I don't understand how a guy who won so many games for us over years is now assumed to be worse than the new guy. Who won about the same number of games with the same team for one year.
Because he's too tan, his ties were too long, and he's a douche.
Everybody knows that performance and doucheness are inversely related. I believe Henry Sugar did a chart illustrating that.
Thank God Buzz is not a douche.
Quote from: mufanatic on March 09, 2009, 11:12:01 AM
I have to disagree. This team with DJ had a real good chance of beating Louisville (loss in the last minute) and Syracuse (loss in overtime) and everyone would have been extremely pleased with us going 3-2 through the gauntlet.
Were we final four material? Not legit final four contenders but under the right circumstances and matchups we at least had a chance.
I personally fell that you completely under value DJ's value, especially on the defensive end as he does make at least 4 or 5 possession difference on the offensive and defensive end. The only way one can think having DJ did not make a difference was if they believe Acker is as good as DJ. I would find it hard to believe that anyone would think that. So if you think DJ is better than Acker than the extra 1 or 2 possessions would have resulted in 2 more wins and we wouldn't be having topics like these.
+1
Well said.
This was dfinitely a Sweet 16 team with DJ. A senior laden guard rich team. So this team was "that" good. Unfortunately, DJ's injury puts all of that in the "coulda been" category. As far as Buzz /TC comparison go, thats something we'll never know either and its not worth speculating about that. But, Buzz has obviously done a good job. Now, lets get a win or two in the BET. ;D
Quote from: Niv Berkowitz on March 09, 2009, 11:18:13 AM
I still say this goes to show that had they hired an experienced, established coach we - fans, bloggers - would not have that excuse to fall back on.
I keep hearing about these great experienced, established coaches we could have hired? Who were they? Were they really that good? Were they great coaches and lousy recruiters? Were they going to leave as soon as they got a better job and put us in the same situation 1, 2 or 3 years down the road?
I really would like to know because I wasn't thrilled with the names I was hearing(Lowry, McKillop and Grant).