here are the stats for one player in our 6 losses---Question who is this player?
Shots 23 Team shots 61
Shots 7 Team shots 48
Shots 15 Team shots 54
Shots 20 Team shots 57
Shots 19 Team shots 59
Shots 24 Team shots 61
Notice a pattern? In 5 of our 6 losses one player has taken over 30% of our shots. No fair peaking at box scores Who is this player?
The most obvious question EVER asked. Very unoriginal.
Wait, don't tell me....Robert Frozena?
Unless the numbers are substantially different in MU's 23 wins that means nothing.
And for the entire year he has taken nearly 27% of the shots over the entire season. What's your point?
The numbers are different--look them up By the way, StillWarriors you didn't name the player
350/1400 = 25% For the wins. It's not different enough to be factor IMO.
the POINT is in our losses, one player--as yet un-named-- forces tooo many bad shots which contributes to the losss--The numbers don't lie.
Wow, what analysis. I think you're right if Burke and Cubillan took more shots we'd be in the top 5. This is all Buzz's fault - how dare he run the offense through that piece of crap McNeal.
Yes, McNeal does take some bad shots - I think he does in every game and it is a source of frustration. But McNeal is an aggressive player and with the dearth of options we have, I don't know what the solution to this incredible analysis is.
Quote from: Marquette65 on March 05, 2009, 03:15:20 PM
the POINT is in our losses, one player--as yet un-named-- forces tooo many bad shots which contributes to the losss--The numbers don't lie.
Interesting point.
What if he made more shots early in the game in the losses? Would that put MU ahead in those and allow other players to get in the game and take more shots?
I guess what I'm saying is, in losses, he probably increases his shots because he's usually the best option for MU to score and make a comeback.
In wins, (if MU is leading), he can wait and let the offense come to him.
Quote from: 2002mualum on March 05, 2009, 03:33:57 PM
I guess what I'm saying is, in losses, he probably increases his shots because he's usually the best option for MU to score and make a comeback.
The problem is, that he doesn't recognize when he's not the best option. Last night MU made their run because of Lazar and Wesley. They lost their lead because of Jerel. As a senior he needs to recognize who has the hot hand and when to get them the ball rather than force up bad shots on his own.
When McNeal shoots those shots, are there really that much better of shots to be had? This team had 4 guys who could create their own shots, but I'd take Jerel any time actually if someone has to force one.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on March 05, 2009, 04:13:28 PM
When McNeal shoots those shots, are there really that much better of shots to be had? This team had 4 guys who could create their own shots, but I'd take Jerel any time actually if someone has to force one.
+1
Why is it that when "the wheels are falling off" everyone jumps down the throat of our best player? I'd be more upset if we had to run the gauntlet without Jerel than without DJ. Jerel has been option #1 on offense all season, I just don't get why people are getting on his case because he's taken a few bad shots and has made a few mental errors. How many bad shots had DJ taken over the last 4 season? Nobody's getting on his case now. The point I'm trying to make is that you have no idea how good we have had it with 'Rel until he's no longer wearing the Blue and Gold.
first of all, no one is bashing JM just pointing out an interesting trend.
JM, a 4 year starter, has taken more than a " few" bad shots this year and made more than a " few" mental errors. Things you should not expect from a 4 year starter who is suspose to be in the mix for POY in the BE. Everyone has pointed out , how his bad shot selection and mental errors,at Pitt really hurt.
McNeal has turned the ball over on occassion and does not make 100% of his shots
Thank you for bringing this to the attention of the scoop boards
Quote from: mosarsour on March 05, 2009, 04:30:58 PM
+1
Why is it that when "the wheels are falling off" everyone jumps down the throat of our best player? I'd be more upset if we had to run the gauntlet without Jerel than without DJ. Jerel has been option #1 on offense all season, I just don't get why people are getting on his case because he's taken a few bad shots and has made a few mental errors. How many bad shots had DJ taken over the last 4 season? Nobody's getting on his case now. The point I'm trying to make is that you have no idea how good we have had it with 'Rel until he's no longer wearing the Blue and Gold.
The point is that this is not something new, it's something that he's done throughout his entire career. There are just some nights where he seems to decide that he's going to shoot a lot no matter what, even when they are clearly not falling. It would be one thing if he were a guy that was known as a shooter. But he's not.
Jerel is a great player, one of the best to ever wear the blue and gold. But the team succeeds because of their variety and their ability to have 4 different guys go off at any time. Him throwing up bad shots, or him shooting that much in general doesn't help. It's like the stupid shirts and signs Crean had last year that said "the star of the team is the team". When they decide to share the basketball and get everyone involved, they can be unstoppable on offense. When any one of them(not just Jerel) tries to take over a game on their own the results are not good.
Rel is all that...he wants the ball to make the plays. Not always true with a lot of players. He is a gamer.
That said, MU is in a better place when Rel takes 30% or less of the shots...he is not as an efficient player as others on the team. Blair is the most efficient player in the BE with a rating of 129.05 in all games. Rel is 34th at 110.75. However, Jimmy is amazingly efficient in his specific role at #3 with a 125.71, Wes is 8th at 120.37, and Zar is #19 at 114.81. Rel's efficiency % comes down because he is trying to make plays...but MU is more efficient sharing the wealth as then we are harder to guard and isolate. Wes and Zar should get more of the shots.
Interestingly, in conference play only, Jimmy Butler is #1 in offensive efficiency in the BEast. Tell me he won't start next year.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/stats/offensive_rating_pct?conf=big-east&games=1
Efficiency stats are nice but they can also be misleading. Jimmy is able to be effcient because he not asked to carry the load like other players.
If Jimmy was needed to score 15 points a game and the offense ran through him on almost every possession like it does JM and Wes it is a given that his efficiency numbers would drop.
Jimmy is a very nice role player right now. Hopefully next year he will have the confidence and ability to expand his role.
Pardner just answered the " POINT" of the post. This team is MUCH better with a more even distribution of the ball.
Quote from: MuMark on March 05, 2009, 05:43:13 PM
Efficiency stats are nice but they can also be misleading. Jimmy is able to be effcient because he not asked to carry the load like other players.
If Jimmy was needed to score 15 points a game and the offense ran through him on almost every possession like it does JM and Wes it is a given that his efficiency numbers would drop.
Jimmy is a very nice role player right now. Hopefully next year he will have the confidence and ability to expand his role.
Jimmy is the ONLY non-starter until way down the list. Nothing misleading about it. When he touches it, he scores. He should be shooting the rock more, plain and simple.
What is interesting, really, is that when 'Nic was playing, after those early losses, you could find all sorts of posts about how *he* lost the game for us by forcing up bad shots.
Now that a different player has had a bit of difficulty with some shots, the same argument comes out.
And not only that, the different player is now blamed for the prior losses as well, losses that were previously blamed on Dom's bad shots.
Sheesh man. Give it a break.
We've got a good (was potentially great) team and have enjoyed an incredible season. It is unfortunate we cannot win them all, but to consistently look for the one guy that *caused* the loss is crazy. We could just as easily blame the last couple of off shooting nights on Acker for not being able to drive the lane, collapse the D, and then dish to the open man. That is what is causing bad shots.
Not Jerel or Wesley or anyone....
Forget it. Our team is different now and they are still attempting to find some continuity in how to play with a new point guard.
Quote from: MuMark on March 05, 2009, 05:43:13 PM
Efficiency stats are nice but they can also be misleading. Jimmy is able to be effcient because he not asked to carry the load like other players.
If Jimmy was needed to score 15 points a game and the offense ran through him on almost every possession like it does JM and Wes it is a given that his efficiency numbers would drop.
Jimmy is a very nice role player right now. Hopefully next year he will have the confidence and ability to expand his role.
Great point.
As Henry Sugar has shown, efficiency and utilization usually go in opposite directions after a certain point.
In other words, the more you use a guy, the less "efficient" he becomes.
Quote from: bma725 on March 05, 2009, 03:39:23 PM
The problem is, that he doesn't recognize when he's not the best option. Last night MU made their run because of Lazar and Wesley. They lost their lead because of Jerel. As a senior he needs to recognize who has the hot hand and when to get them the ball rather than force up bad shots on his own.
Great point, and I don't disagree with you.
I will say his selection has always been suspect, but when he was making 7-7 against Cinci, everybody was regaling Buzz and THE PLAYER for the great offense MU was running.
I'm not saying his shot selection is good, but it always stands out more when he misses than when he makes.
Quote from: 2002mualum on March 05, 2009, 06:29:28 PM
Great point.
As Henry Sugar has shown, efficiency and utilization usually go in opposite directions after a certain point.
In other words, the more you use a guy, the less "efficient" he becomes.
As a comparison per Oliver, Michael Jordan had a 124 offensive rating on the 1996 Bulls and took up 31% of the team's possessions. Early in Jordan's career, he took 38% of the possessions and had a rating of 109. Jordan and the Bulls got better when he shared the shots. Magic and Bird never averaged over 30% of their team's possessions. Magic was about 25%.
This stat is tempo neutral. Jimmy is extremely efficient in his role. He gets a lot of minutes--over 19 per game. Don't underestimate how hard that is coming in cold off the bench, asked to play a position you are not well-suited for.
Btw, Rel's number is not bad...but this shows the team has other options....spread the floor, create spacing, share the rock, don't force plays not there. Everywhere Rel went last night, Pitt had two-three defenders sloughing on him. Well scouted.
Quote from: Marquette65 on March 05, 2009, 02:49:11 PM
here are the stats for one player in our 6 losses---Question who is this player?
Shots 23 Team shots 61
Shots 7 Team shots 48
Shots 15 Team shots 54
Shots 20 Team shots 57
Shots 19 Team shots 59
Shots 24 Team shots 61
Notice a pattern? In 5 of our 6 losses one player has taken over 30% of our shots. No fair peaking at box scores Who is this player?
Wait, so you're telling us that our leading scorer and best offensive option takes a lot of shots?
userrname-- just read Pardner's threads on this topic