Somewhere on this board said (I think I said it too) that Otule will be starting over Burke by the end of the season. I think that will happen. The guy is a "project" and he does look rough around the edges but he looks 100% more compentent with the ball in his hands than Burke does. Its obvious that Burke is in over his head. I hope we can get a few more blowouts like today to get guys like Otule and Fulce some playing time.
i assume you have never played bball. minutes are earned on Defense and Burke had an oustanding game defensively, far far far better than otule. our big 4 are scoring about 7o points agamae on avergae that alone is enought to win. scoring a few more points on o yet giving up more than that on D makes us apoorer team. Please otule shows promise and we will see what happens come MArch but i have more than a hard time seeing otule pass Burke on the defensive end.
Agreed, Burke is playing very well defensively. imo otule still has some work to do, but has a much higher ceiling than burke, but Burke should continue to play just from what he has shown defensively.
exactly, will otule be better than burke is by the time he is a second semester soph or a junior?...most likely. Does he make Mu bettr right now...ah, not even close.
Burke should still be the starter and play more minutes but i think we need to get otule in there more. The coaches imo have done a good job with otule so far, and now he needs to just get in the game and get some experience.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on January 04, 2009, 03:40:52 PM
exactly, will otule be better than burke is by the time he is a second semester soph or a junior?...most likely. Does he make Mu bettr right now...ah, not even close.
I could make the argument that Otule makes Marquette a more deadly offense, and that his presence down low of having a person down low that shows promise to put the ball in the hoop (unlike Burke), forces the man guarding Otule to have to stick to him more instead of doubling a James, Matthews, McNeal off of a pick.
It actually happened in the game where Otule just got into the game, and he went and set a pick for one of the three(think Matthews) and Otule's defender was use to Burke's lack of a scoring option, so went out and hedged way to far away and left an easy pass to Otule for an easy dunk... that actually turned into a foul and Otule to the charity stripe(regardless if he missed both).
However my call is for still more Hazel... the man plays D like Burke, and can score on the offense. The only problem is I think Burke has so much leadership that he brings to the team, and due to this leadership I am ok with him starting. But I would enjoy a three player rotation at that position.
Otule did have a nice one footer where he simply used his height to drop it in on a 6'8 guy. It was nice to finally see an MU center be able to do that. However, an elite big man like Thabeet would stuff that weak BS right back into his face. He hung with his guy on D in the first half, but looked lost with his role on team D. He is also going to pick up fouls by the boatload if he doesn't learn how to hide his grabs or learn to throw his hips around.
If he can improve to the point where he can play a consistent 10 minutes a game and not hurt the team, then MU should be quite happy with that.
Quote from: Mayor McCheese on January 04, 2009, 03:45:49 PM
I could make the argument that Otule makes Marquette a more deadly offense, and that his presence down low of having a person down low that shows promise to put the ball in the hoop (unlike Burke), forces the man guarding Otule to have to stick to him more instead of doubling a James, Matthews, McNeal off of a pick.
It actually happened in the game where Otule just got into the game, and he went and set a pick for one of the three(think Matthews) and Otule's defender was use to Burke's lack of a scoring option, so went out and hedged way to far away and left an easy pass to Otule for an easy dunk... that actually turned into a foul and Otule to the charity stripe(regardless if he missed both).
However my call is for still more Hazel... the man plays D like Burke, and can score on the offense. The only problem is I think Burke has so much leadership that he brings to the team, and due to this leadership I am ok with him starting. But I would enjoy a three player rotation at that position.
Burke brings leadership??? You are joking right?
The whole "You obviously haven't played basketball before.." such a stupid comment. (by Mr. Hayward) Based on your comments, you OBVIOUSLY did not watch the game. Otule had 2 blocks. Cincy's F's had decent games. In the first half, Otule made a nice roll to the basket that forced a force. When has Burke EVER done that? I would venture to say never. I am not saying Otule is amazing right now but at least the guy doesn't look clueless on the offensive end and Otule is just as good as Burke on defense if not better because he can block shots. There is no way that Burke is "hands down" better than Otule on the defensive end. And as the season moves forward, it will be obvious that Otule is the better option.
Burke is playing 100 percent better than the first 5 games of the season. Again, his game is not going to show up in stats. He isn't going to score because they won't pass to him. If he scrapes up a few boards and pushes his guy out from the rim on D he is doing exactly what Buzz wants him to do. Hazel has a better offensive touch so he will get the ball once in awhile. However, if he were to slip on D he will ride the pine because MU needs D from the 5 more than it needs O.
Otule still doesn't grasp his role on D other than simply guarding his man. He doesn't not yet know when to help or not help or when to switch. That only can come with experience and practice. Like I said before, he has an upside, but its a ways off.
Badger...
I just want to know where you are seeing this leadership by Burke. I don't see him getting in his teammates' heads to make them play better or flat out making plays. In my perception, I see leaders either filling the stat sheets, emotional leaders, or "johnny-on-the-spot" (making big plays). If a leader doesn't do one of the three, you might as well call everyone a leader on the team.
Most here disagree with you, ErickJD08, but the only guy that really matters, Coach Buzz, galacticly disagrees with you. As he's said a number of times, and mentioned again on the post-game today, he's said Otule is terrible, lost, floundering, etc. It's highly doubtful he will start this year, let alone have more than garbage minutes over the next 90 days.
That's a far cry from "better than Burke" a senior starter.
The answer to your question will be given as the main guy, Coach Buzz, decides to put him in, or more likely, NOT, as the season progresses.
I guess I am wrong. Burke is AWESOME. He is the leader of the team. Sorry for even posting such a silly comment. I have been paying attention to MU ball for 10 years now and he is the worst player I have seen start on our team. But that too is a silly comment because Burke is AWESOME.
Otule still doesn't have his wind to play big minutes. And you NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, replace a starting senior with a freshman while the team is playing well. Burke is playing to his ceiling right now and has been for the last 4 weeks. Otule is going to continue to get minutes and we need him to contribute, particularly against quality bigs. Otule will be better as a sophomore than Burke is as a senior. But right now, the team is better with Burke as the starting 5. To argue differently means you aren't paying attention.
Quote from: Mayor McCheese on January 04, 2009, 03:45:49 PM
However my call is for still more Hazel... the man plays D like Burke, and can score on the offense. The only problem is I think Burke has so much leadership that he brings to the team, and due to this leadership I am ok with him starting. But I would enjoy a three player rotation at that position.
Burke can't score, and he hasn't been consistently reliable, but right now he is definitely better at D down low than the others. However, the point is Buzz should definitely be giving Hazel and Otule a few more minutes per game. Burke's always in foul trouble anyway. By sitting Burke, he can rest, you build the younger guys' confidence levels, force the other team to adjust to a scoring "threat" down low for a few minutes, and save Burke from fouling so that if he's needed for a big defensive stop late in the game--like at NC State--he hasn't fouled out yet.
On another note, does anybody know of a link to see or hear the post-game from today? I'd like to hear what Buzz had to say.
Erick
Please find the post where I said Burke was a leader.
Pay more attention to both the board and the game and your comments won't be so ridiculous.
Crap... My bad Badger... It was Mayor McCheese
"However my call is for still more Hazel... the man plays D like Burke, and can score on the offense. The only problem is I think Burke has so much leadership that he brings to the team, and due to this leadership I am ok with him starting. But I would enjoy a three player rotation at that position."
apology accepted :)
If you replace mayor McCheese's word of leadership with experience then I would agree in general with his point.
I think if MU can consistently get 20-10-10 from Burke, Hazel and Otule by the end of the year....the minute spread with the one playing best that particular game, then I think Buzz will be quite happy. If it is interchangable parts, then let the senior start.
Offensively Otule > Burke
Defensively Otule < Burke
I am excited to see how Otule develops but for now you have to stick with Burke. If Otule can improve his D, then will he get the nod.
Quote from: ErickJD08 on January 04, 2009, 05:35:09 PM
I guess I am wrong. Burke is AWESOME. He is the leader of the team. Sorry for even posting such a silly comment. I have been paying attention to MU ball for 10 years now and he is the worst player I have seen start on our team. But that too is a silly comment because Burke is AWESOME.
Come on dude... Jamil Lott... there have been worse Burke is a good defender. Stop crying and enjoy the discussion
erickdj....
I am not sure if you understand defensive concepts or what Mu is trying to do in defnding the post as individuals and collectively as a team.
If you do then you are off to a good start. watch the Mu / cincy game again and dont watch the ball watch burke and otule play defense and then rethink your comments.
if you do not understand what Mu is trying to do it will not help anyway and the same comments and thoughts will continue.
also i dont think anyone is posting that Burke is awesome, just better than Otule. and do you not remember Jamil lott?
Burke has been playing very good defense lately - very good. Otule provided a spark when he entered the game, and he does present an offensive threat - and that threat will get greater as he matures. Hazel was awesome today too - so it's nice to have that 3rd option with Otule. Start? No. I think Burke starts - we actually got our second jump ball to start the game against Cinccy!
Nice to have 3 guys to go too - excited about getting Otule in the mix
Otule may be better than burke but still needs to get PT and some practices under his belt. I would not expect him to start this season but could see him getting major mins towards the end of the season. I agree that the senior should start but that doesnt mean he has to play the majority of mins. I just hope we get a big who can play D and score to take pressure off the back court.
Burke should start the rest of the year. Otule's playing time should increase. In the post game conference Buzz said that the other four players had to cover for Otule. At first blush, I thought he was being hard on Otule, but then I realized that Buzz is going to push him to the max. It made me wonder how good Barro would have been, if he had been coached by Buzz and his staff for four years.
1. What a simple pleasure in life this is just to have this argument about MU Bigs.
2. I agree with Haywire. We can all see what Burke ain't. But, what is he is, ain't on the stat sheet. He won the NCST game and shut down two Bigs to start the BE who had considerable advantage over him.
3. Otule is a great change of pace for us...and to have other BE teams prepare for. When he came in today, UC had no idea what to do...which opened up shots for the Fantastic Four. Otule will be good to insert against a zone D to post him and create spacing.
4. Hazel is by far the Most Improved. Again, with his energy and his ability to put it in the hole, it is a third completely different match-up that our opponents have to prepare for...totally different look.
5. I think Fulce is the most talented of them all. Like with Otule, they will have to earn their minutes.
QuoteOn another note, does anybody know of a link to see or hear the post-game from today? I'd like to hear what Buzz had to say.
Coach Buzz raved about Dominique's Defense. He spoke at length about how far he has come and that people are acknowledging the changes to his offensive game, but his D is even better.
Interestingly enough he was brutal on Otule. He said that he was horrible on offense and even worse on Defense. I think the direct quote was "he meanders on defense". Buzz said that the reason he looks good is because the other 4 starters cover for his obvious short comings.
He said the only bench player right now that can play with 3 starters and not have a significant drop off is Jimmy Butler. Buzz sighted the fact that the Bearcats didn't have an offensive rebound until the 13 minute mark in the 2nd half. Then when he pulled his starters they scored on almost every possesion @ the end of the game.
He is remarkably candid. I don't know if it is good or bad. Otule must have thick skin because he doesn't have a problem calling him out at all.
Thanks, muhoops. Hopefully Otule doesn't mind the criticism. And I agree completely, Butler is playing the best outside of the Big 4 hands down.
fulce's athleticism is mind boggling. I think he will help at asome point. My hope is he is ready to contribute when needed for 5-10 minutes a agame after the two week period where we only hvae one game. that period is critical IMO for otule and fulce to get up to speed and for the whole team for that matter we can practice every day for two straight weeks.
Quote from: MR.HAYWARD on January 04, 2009, 07:49:53 PM
fulce's athleticism is mind boggling. I think he will help at asome point. My hope is he is ready to contribute when needed for 5-10 minutes a agame after the two week period where we only hvae one game. that period is critical IMO for otule and fulce to get up to speed and for the whole team for that matter we can practice every day for two straight weeks.
We'll see. Buzz himself said that Fulce's game might not be the same after the injury, and saying that "he will help at some point" is a thin of a speculative assertion as I've ever read on this board. Butler is still showing just as much promise...if not more. That "help at some point" you're talking about is probably next year. I don't see him coming in a shaking things up much this season, although I hope I get to eat my words. He definitely is athletic as hell.
Quote from: bs4173 on January 04, 2009, 05:40:37 PM
On another note, does anybody know of a link to see or hear the post-game from today? I'd like to hear what Buzz had to say.
Absolutely -- http://www.gomarquette.com has been creating mpc3s/podcasts for the postgames. Here's Buzz from today...
http://cstvpodcast.cstv.com.edgesuite.net/marquette/010409_marq_WilliamsPC.mp3
Excellent! Thanks.
I'm not sure why everyone thinks Burke is such a good defender, he usually racks up fouls pretty quickly, and every time his guy sets a screen he stays with the on the other guy letting his guy roll to the basket, that has happened probably 15 times this season. He doesn't block shots, he doesn't crash the defensive glass and he doesn't shut guys down inside, or keep them off the boards. I guess I just don't see him being a defensive asset, much less a stopper.
I don't think OTule should start just yet, although I think after today, he should get some more minutes. We're going to need all 3--Burke, Hazel, and OTule by the end of the year, and hopefully Fulce can contribute as well.
Quote from: buckchuckler on January 04, 2009, 08:57:21 PM
I'm not sure why everyone thinks Burke is such a good defender, he usually racks up fouls pretty quickly, and every time his guy sets a screen he stays with the on the other guy letting his guy roll to the basket, that has happened probably 15 times this season. He doesn't block shots, he doesn't crash the defensive glass and he doesn't shut guys down inside, or keep them off the boards. I guess I just don't see him being a defensive asset, much less a stopper.
UW game: Landry averages 13 pts., gets 5
UT: Smith avgs. 17.3, gets 14. Chism goes off on Zar and Wes.
NCST: McCauley avgs. 13.9, gets 8. Burke with key block/steal, sets double pick to free DJ.
Nova: Cunnigham averages 17, gets 16.
Cinn: Gates averages 10, gets 10.
Point is, he
limits guys much bigger than him and doesn't get into mismatch hell...leaving the game with our strength--our quickness. Both of our losses have been due to other mismatches (Chism and Lowery)--not Burke/Hazel combo which says a lot.
On the screens, MU usually plays it that way...Burke's role is to step out and stop that guard with the ball, then peel back as DJ and Rel catch up. Either Zar, Jimmy or Wes are then supposed to switch to the roller (Burke's guy). So, those 15 times are intentional. See Buzz if you have an issue with how MU treats pick and rolls on D. Burke is doing what the coach asks...is he the most talented guy in the world? No. Is he doing his job as a role player? Yes. The 5 combo of Burke, Otule and Hazel got 8 pts., 11 boards, 3 blocks and 1 steal today on three fouls.
again, i dont think anyone is saying he is "awesome" or a "great defender" what has been said is if he can stay out of foul trouble he can be a good defender and at times very good, addiotnalyy simply saying he is our best option.
anyone want to rethink the otule over Burke suggestion? again I think otule is going to be a fine player but he was absoltely horrendous tonight. he did help us tho in the sense that when hazal and burke both had two fouls he helped us get thru the first half. however as poorly as he played he needs to get alot better to eliminate such a drop off defensively
+1000
Otule looked slow, tentative, and completely lost. His movements are so cumbersome, it made me wonder if he can keep up, even with 1-2-3 more seasons.
Quote from: bs4173 on January 04, 2009, 07:32:13 PM
Thanks, muhoops. Hopefully Otule doesn't mind the criticism. And I agree completely, Butler is playing the best outside of the Big 4 hands down.
Otule did nothing with his minutes tonight.
he will be fine but there were a couple times where Rutgers players drove the lane line and he was guarding a rutgers player on the block ball side and never even saw the layup attempt. That does not happen with Hazel or Burke, they do a good job helping and rebounding. otule had 1 reb 2 turnovers and 2 fouls in 8 minutes.
he will be fine but it is the perfect example of why you need to sign a big every year. that way you are not reliant on Freshman bigs. the junior and senior play while the fresh and soph get little time while they develop. I detest Wisconsin but they have a good system for big men. now if we become a georegtown or Uconn or suracuse where you can consistently attract big time big men then you can deviate from it otherwise we need to develop them 1 at a time 4 in the system at all times. Our problem is not Otule it is where is our junior and sophomore big man and for goodness sake burke is onlt 6'8. we hadnt sign a big since ooze. opportunity for Riley
The road in the BE is a tough place to play for new players. Buzz will need to go to a shorter bench on the road until the half way mark. The bench needs to find its identity and roles. We have yet to see much zone, which may be a better role for most of our bench--Mo is very good at zone penetration and 3 pters, dcube for perimeter play and Otule for post up against a 2-3 where he is not required to be as fluid and set the high pick. I suspect Huggie will throw zone at us--so let's see what the guys can do.
I see others noticed too. To uses Buzz's term, Otule was pathetic tonight. I thought it was his worst game.
otule was terrible tonight. just awful
Otule will be slow to develop - this is a monster conference and he missed all the cupcakes where he could have found his groove....he will improve and be a contributor I think....
Quote from: Pardner on January 07, 2009, 09:54:31 PMMo is very good at ... 3 pters,
Believe me, I wish this were a true statement, but he's not. Aside from his prayer against Cincy (which was awesome, by the way) he's just 7-27 for the year behind the arc, and those 7 are against: Western Carolina (2), Central Michigan (1), Texas Southern (3), and Chicago State (1). Now I'm not saying he shouldn't play or that he hasn't made contributions elsewhere, but he hasn't made any sort of long range shooting contribution this year against a quality opponent.
I've noticed the same thing. Acker is consistently bricking the one or two threes he takes every game. They usually seem rushed. I'd recommend screening for him to take his threes, but he's got to show the ability to hit some shots on his own first.
Quote from: TJ on January 07, 2009, 10:21:04 PM
Believe me, I wish this were a true statement, but he's not. Aside from his prayer against Cincy (which was awesome, by the way) he's just 7-27 for the year behind the arc, and those 7 are against: Western Carolina (2), Central Michigan (1), Texas Southern (3), and Chicago State (1). Now I'm not saying he shouldn't play or that he hasn't made contributions elsewhere, but he hasn't made any sort of long range shooting contribution this year against a quality opponent.
You didn't take me entire quote..he is better with the dribble and the threes against a
zone where he can find more uncontested threes on the perimeter vs being height disadvantaged aginst a man. Mo shot 43% last year on treys where we saw a ton of zone vs. 30% this year where we have seen mostly man. Same with dCubes. Interesting that our three best trey point shooters from last year are way down this year. Zar is coming back but he is still off.
http://statsheet.com/mcb/beyondthearc/teams/marquette
I like seeing Mo out there backing up James. I think he is out best option and a pretty good option as backup PG.
And I know I skipped part of your quote, but given that he hasn't hit a three against a decent opponent so far this year I don't see how we can call him a good 3 pt option against any type of defense.
Here's to hoping he steps it up and hits some shots.
As the season evolves Burke's play has picked up and his value should be recognized. To date only one center has gone off on us, Chism. Marquette has all the scoring it needs. What it lacks is someone who will limit the opponent's big guy. Burke has been doing a very fine job fronting their post players. And he's doing it against bigger and stronger opponents. He has excellent quickness that allows him to move quickly and get strong defensive positions. I love Otule's projection but Burke is a much better fit for the team right now.
Quote from: Daniel on January 07, 2009, 10:16:34 PM
Otule will be slow to develop - this is a monster conference and he missed all the cupcakes where he could have found his groove....he will improve and be a contributor I think....
I agree that he's still developing but watching his aggressiveness during the Cincy and Rutgers games, I am very optimistic. I think next year he'll be a little better but by his Junior and Senior years we'll see a robert jackson type post presence because O'Tule has the mentality of a scorer and as soon as his hands catch up to his body he'll be a threat to score down low.
The main thing that worries me about Otule is that he seems plodding and slow. If he seemed quicker and more athletic, but still seemed a little lost out there, I would feel good about his future. I am not sure he can be more athletic than he showed yesterday.
OToule has size and potential, but I think he looked absoutely terrible last night. Had no idea where to be on the floor. That is probably to be expected given his inexperience coupled with the time he missed. He's barely ready to play, let a lone start.
Quote from: DaCoach on January 08, 2009, 03:48:07 AM
As the season evolves Burke's play has picked up and his value should be recognized. To date only one center has gone off on us, Chism. Marquette has all the scoring it needs. What it lacks is someone who will limit the opponent's big guy. Burke has been doing a very fine job fronting their post players. And he's doing it against bigger and stronger opponents. He has excellent quickness that allows him to move quickly and get strong defensive positions. I love Otule's projection but Burke is a much better fit for the team right now.
+1 billion
Quote from: Pastor of Muppets on January 08, 2009, 06:45:22 AM
The main thing that worries me about Otule is that he seems plodding and slow. If he seemed quicker and more athletic, but still seemed a little lost out there, I would feel good about his future. I am not sure he can be more athletic than he showed yesterday.
you mean he looked like a Freshman big man that was not in the top 75 coming ut of High School. yes, you are right - if we actually recruited bigs the last 9 years you would realize that is how Freshman bigs not named greg Monroe or Greg oden look as freshman. that is why you need 4 in the system ...that is why they redshirt them or they never play at Wisky. Otule is only playing becuase we have no one else...we have no Junior Big and no sopmore big...hazel is a 3-4 size wise...dont blame Otule for not living up to Mu's needs blame the douchebag in Bloomington who is coaching his team to a 6 win season!
Otule might be plodding and slow but I sure like his aggressiveness. He will be a whole lot better next year at this time with a season under his belt. But back to plodding and slow, I do believe that McMorrow is a bit more athletic and will be a very good compliment to Otule next year.
I saw Otule play a few times here in Houston last year. As I said then and I still insist, he's a project. But he's a smart kid with good instincts and a very hard worker. It's too bad he got injured or he'd be playing 15 mpg. His lack of non tension practice time was a huge loss for him as a freshman. It also hurt that he isn't playing behind a quality center who could mentor him and play against him in scrimmages.
That being said, he's very quick. I attribute his seeming slowness to indecision. He's thinking rather than reacting. Give him time and we should have a decent center next year, possibly excellent after that.
is liam back practicing with the guys yet? from my limited time watching him he is an absolute beast and super athletic for his size. he needs all the practice he can get before next year. also, it would be good for our guys to go against a true 7 footer. i think that liam has HUGE potential based on his athleticism and great size.
liam is able to go at a very limited level at this point. he was out of the boot doing some basic light drills before the cincy game with the team.