How would you rate the job that Buzz Williams has done selling and promoting Marquette basketball? Is he more like Kevin O'Neill, who seemed to not enjoy that part and did what he had to do, or is he more like Crean who seemed to enjoy the salesman ship part of the job? Is he doing anything differently than past coaches?
I'm a bit young to comment on the Kevin O'Neill comparison, but I would rate him somewhere between Crean and Deane. He certainly isn't the showman Crean was, but he does seem to endear himself to those he meets. He also isn't the media-hating Deane either. With that said, there certainly seems to be a lack of excitement around the team this year. Whether it is him, a snow-filled December, the economy, or any number of other causes, there doesn't seem to be a lot of juice about them.
Gee...do you think conducting a legitimate coaching search would've created a level of excitement?
But it's not Buzz. It's the fact that he wasn't qualified to be our head coach and people are disappointed with the university publicly acknowledging that we're not a big-time basketball program.
By the way, if you think 2008 is a down year excitement-wise, wait until next year...especially if we miss the NCAA.
Look out below.
I seriously doubt that the casual Milwaukee sports fan is basing their decision on whether to go to an MU game this year on how they chose the coach.
For people on this board it could certainly have an impact, but projecting that to the general public and those that make up fans 11,000-16,000 at the BC is more than a stretch.
Quote from: RedWebster on December 22, 2008, 01:58:49 PM
Gee...do you think conducting a legitimate coaching search would've created a level of excitement?
But it's not Buzz. It's the fact that he wasn't qualified to be our head coach and people are disappointed with the university publicly acknowledging that we're not a big-time basketball program.
By the way, if you think 2008 is a down year excitement-wise, wait until next year...especially if we miss the NCAA.
Look out below.
This guy is a hater and most likely high when he wrote this. Have you seen our recruiting class for next year? You honestly believe we aren't going to be a good team and that we could miss the tourny this year? Stop crying about Buzz and get behind your team.
Buzz is not a bad coach and doing a lot with what he's got. The future looks strong.
Quote from: jos7287 on December 22, 2008, 02:05:10 PM
This guy is a hater and most likely high when he wrote this. Have you seen our recruiting class for next year? You honestly believe we aren't going to be a good team and that we could miss the tourny this year? Stop crying about Buzz and get behind your team.
Buzz is not a bad coach and doing a lot with what he's got. The future looks strong.
+1
Quote from: Marquette_g on December 22, 2008, 02:03:11 PM
I seriously doubt that the casual Milwaukee sports fan is basing their decision on whether to go to an MU game this year on how they chose the coach.
For people on this board it could certainly have an impact, but projecting that to the general public and those that make up fans 11,000-16,000 at the BC is more than a stretch.
Nobody said anything about attendance. We're talking about the excitement level. It's not there. The Bradley Center has been a morgue all season. There's something missing and it sure as heck isn't Crean's "presence."
By hiring a guy even UW-Eau Claire wouldn't have considered, Marquette blew the chance to build excitement around the program.
I think any lack of excitement may be due to the fact that the team is so clearly limited in terms of its ceiling based upon the complete absence of an inside game. I suspect that if Otule and/or Fulce look like they can contribute significantly excitement will pick up. Let's hope.
Quote from: RedWebster on December 22, 2008, 01:58:49 PM
Gee...do you think conducting a legitimate coaching search would've created a level of excitement?
But it's not Buzz. It's the fact that he wasn't qualified to be our head coach and people are disappointed with the university publicly acknowledging that we're not a big-time basketball program.
By the way, if you think 2008 is a down year excitement-wise, wait until next year...especially if we miss the NCAA.
Look out below.
(http://cgml.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/clown.jpg)=(http://www.craigharper.com.au/uploaded_images/yawning.jpg)
I think general concern about the team's ability to compete in the Big East (given injuries and size) has contributed to a less than rocking atmosphere.
I would also speculate that having someone like Bob McKillop as our coach, instead of Buzz, wouldn't have made much of a difference in terms of overall program excitement outside of the people on boards like this.
Quote from: RedWebster on December 22, 2008, 02:08:11 PM
Nobody said anything about attendance. We're talking about the excitement level. It's not there. The Bradley Center has been a morgue all season. There's something missing and it sure as heck isn't Crean's "presence."
By hiring a guy even UW-Eau Claire wouldn't have considered, Marquette blew the chance to build excitement around the program.
Where do I start with this...
The place is always a morgue in the non-conference games. UWM lost it's juice once the novelty of playing them wore off last year. Also, were you at the UW game? Plenty of excitement there, and it wasn't from half the crowd in Red.
And the second part is ridiculous. Buzz was going to be a high-major coach soon, there was no way he was going to stay as an assistant here for more than 2 years.
If all you can complain about is his lack of PR savvy, he's doing a great job as coach.
Quote from: RedWebster on December 22, 2008, 01:58:49 PM
Gee...do you think conducting a legitimate coaching search would've created a level of excitement?
But it's not Buzz. It's the fact that he wasn't qualified to be our head coach and people are disappointed with the university publicly acknowledging that we're not a big-time basketball program.
By the way, if you think 2008 is a down year excitement-wise, wait until next year...especially if we miss the NCAA.
Look out below.
Seriously at this point, what does it matter. Your posts all seem to have the same theme:complaints about the coaching search. Maybe they didn't have the coaching search you wanted, but would this team be playing any differently if it was under Chris Lowery or some other mid major coach? I don't think so. These other coaches wouldn't have brought an inside player with them, so our problems would be the same as they are today. Is Buzz a big name hire? No. Is he continuing to land solid recruits and developing as a coach, yes. He may succeed or he may fail, it would be no different than any other coach that was available to come to Marquette.
All the obnoxious "process" bulls..t aside from clowns like Red Webster..i mean abe froman...i mean natedogg......
Buzz needs to win because he can't charm the alums like Crean. It's all about winning with Buzz whereas Crean and his dog and pony show had the alums besides themselves. I think that's the way it should be. Hopefully we'll see more consistent good results from Buzz and he'll need it.
Quote from: Stone Cold on December 22, 2008, 02:18:14 PM
All the obnoxious "process" bulls..t aside from clowns like Red Webster..i mean abe froman...i mean natedogg......
Buzz needs to win because he can't charm the alums like Crean. It's all about winning with Buzz whereas Crean and his dog and pony show had the alums besides themselves. I think that's the way it should be. Hopefully we'll see more consistent good results from Buzz and he'll need it.
That's the other thing, how many of these guys have actually met Buzz? What you see in the media isn't indicative of how he is in person. I got the chance to meet him this summer, and he's a very gracious and engaging guy. He's much more down to earth than Crean, who was like a politician, always looking for the next hand to shake. He'll win over the alums, and I think he already has to a degree.
Don't know why it took me so long, but I just exercised the "IGNORE" button for the first time. MAN THAT FELT GOOD! Thanks for the wonderful feature, mods!
Still waiting for somebody to disagree about the lack of excitement and/or to provide a reason why that might be. I gave you a major reason and name-calling ensued. You guys are brilliant!
I'll agree with Red for some of that.
I do believe there's a downturn in excitement about the program. Since April, 2008 was rough, much like a messy divorce, followed by a shotgun wedding to a new dad. It's not just guys sitting on a message board .. my wife has said the same thing. There's just something different about the program now.
I think there's also something to be said about .. this season is a rerun. We're watching the same movie, with the nearly the same cast of characters, with the same great qualities, and the same faults, on top of a much improved Big East. While our A-game is great, this team is very capable of putting in a B- performance, getting creamed by the UConns and ULs of the world. We could very easily be fighting for .500 this year, and a spot in the Dance.
As for the future .. it's still too early to tell if Buzz is a great game coach or not. If he can rally the troops in times of adversity. Talk to me in mid-February. -- As for 2009-10? Yes, we've got a great recruiting class. Just remember .. none of these kids have played a minute of college ball. Unless they're the second coming of the Fab 5, it's Lazar and some new kids out there next year, which will be a gigantic step down from DJ, Wes, McNeal. I'd really be shocked if we made the Dance in 2010. But who knows.
-- As for Buzz .. I do think he's won over a lot of alums, including myself, on the humanity side of the equation. He is indeed, a solid, honest, standup guy, with good intentions in his heart.
Quote from: RedWebster on December 22, 2008, 02:31:14 PM
Still waiting for somebody to disagree about the lack of excitement and/or to provide a reason why that might be. I gave you a major reason and name-calling ensued. You guys are brilliant!
Except for the fear of smoke coming out of your ears, do you think that you could admit that the previous coach did a good job creating excitement for the program and that's why it seems a little down this year?
I'm still excited about Buzz, but I have to admit that MU's former coach did a great job reaching out to even casual fans and getting them excited. Some of his antics grew old... but I believe there is an old "Mcguire-ism" about "Filling the corners"... and MU's most recent coach was certainly good at that.
I just think it's way too early to talk about a lack of excitement, etc. These buy games are never all that exciting. The UW game was just as raucous of an atmosphere as it has been with TC here.
If there is no juice for the Nova game, I'll start to believe there's a difference.
Right now, we've had *maybe* two home games of interest. UWM and UW. And the novelty of scoring 100 against UWM has worn off.
Things are different, there's not as much of an emphasis on the head coach. No "TC entrance cam" or those stupid "Our opponent is incredible and unbelievably well-coached and we'll need all of you to carry us tonight" speeches. People are still adjusting to it, but I have a feeling once BE play starts this will all be moot.
Buzz has done fine on creating excitement. I really believe the general nature of the economy has taken away that get fired up spirit to some extent. Obviously a big home game like UW will stir emotions up. The general pulse of people I hang with is far calmer. Almost like waiting for other shoe to drop.
I believe that a couple of big wins would bring the excitement level up a few notches. If you saw the article on the Packers today in JS you can see excitement level is down there as well. Do not think many people are looking at things with a great deal of optimism. Just my take on the issue.
Quote from: 2002mualum on December 22, 2008, 02:42:49 PM
Except for the fear of smoke coming out of your ears, do you think that you could admit that the previous coach did a good job creating excitement for the program and that's why it seems a little down this year?
Yes and no. I agree that Crean did a good job creating excitement nationally -- that GameDay thing was a major, major coup -- but locally, which is where this thread started, I believe people were on to his line of bull and most people I've talked to didn't care for him personally.
Hilltopper is probably on to something as far as "watching a re-run" is concerned. But I firmly believe it's due to a perceived lack of commitment/disappointment at having missed a gigantic opportunity in April.
Nothing about Buzz Williams says "Marquette" to me and I would not have said that about any of our previous hires (including Dukiet). That may sound lame, but the excitement surrounding Marquette basketball is as much about the brand as anything.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on December 22, 2008, 02:35:52 PM
-- As for Buzz .. I do think he's won over a lot of alums, including myself, on the humanity side of the equation. He is indeed, a solid, honest, standup guy, with good intentions in his heart.
True, that. I also met Mrs. Buzz during halftime of the West Carolina game--very unassuming, genuinely nice person. I don't think Buzz will ever embarrass the program.
I also believe it's a little early in the season to call a code blue. The excitement factor will ensue once the students get into the swing of the conference games. I thought the Wisconsin game was one of the better game day experiences in the BC, and there is still the curiosity factor about Buzz's "style."
I can't see ANY coach we would have gotten that would have pulled in a better recruiting class let alone as good. Every coach has to start somewhere, and Buzz has shown he can recruit, he is charismatic, honest, motivational, and from what I can see he can coach. Is it just coincidence that Wes Matthews is having his best season by far? No, I'm sure it has to do something with Buzz getting him more involved which from what I can tell was a very smart decision since Dominic seems to have transferred more of his points to Wes.
Quote from: Jeronne_toMU09 on December 22, 2008, 02:54:59 PM
I can't see ANY coach we would have gotten that would have pulled in a better recruiting class let alone as good. Every coach has to start somewhere, and Buzz has shown he can recruit, he is charismatic, honest, motivational, and from what I can see he can coach.
Seriously?
I would start by looking at the non conference home schedule. Is there one game, other than Wisconsin, that has motivated you to be anything more than a perfunctory observer? The atmosphere has been comparable to previous years when the bottom tier teams in the country pay visit. I'm going to gauge the excitement level when the Big East season commences next month. The Bradley Center is an NBA arena, and it's design isn't necessarily conducive to a college atmosphere. The place is never going to be mistaken for Florida, Duke, Kansas or some of the other more diminutive and tradition rich settings. It gets loud at times for the big games, and other than that, it's a fairly stale venue. I don't believe the lack of fervor has much to do with the hiring of Buzz Williams as head coach. In fact, the best recruiting class in years is about to hit campus, and this year's team has just as much potential as any since the surprise final four season.
Quote from: RedWebster on December 22, 2008, 02:49:53 PM
Yes and no. I agree that Crean did a good job creating excitement nationally -- that GameDay thing was a major, major coup -- but locally, which is where this thread started, I believe people were on to his line of bull and most people I've talked to didn't care for him personally.
That's not an unfair statement, but realize that your sample size is pretty small. You may know and talk to a good number of people that don't care for him, but at every big game there were 18,000+ people standing and cheering for him when his name was announced (Obviously some of those 18,000 didn't care for him... but I think you get the point).
Just to be clear, MU's former coach was not a saint or a god, but he was very good at marketing MU as a brand (as you stated later in your post).
I think Buzz has a chance to be very good (great recruiting, some good coaching so far, seems personable/likable, etc.)... but there is some re-run effect right now as we all await Buzz taking this talented but undersized team into Big East play.
Lastly, in a previous post I mentioned that I thought Buzz could be very good, but hopefully MU athletics would have some good marketing people in place to back him up. I don't know that Buzz has the marketing skill or drive of the previous coach.
Quote from: RedWebster on December 22, 2008, 02:31:14 PM
Still waiting for somebody to disagree about the lack of excitement and/or to provide a reason why that might be. I gave you a major reason and name-calling ensued. You guys are brilliant!
Red, if you read the second post on this thread, my post made the point about a lack of excitement. I disagree that the reason is solely Buzz. I think it can be attributed to a variety of factors:
1. Concern about a team that people project will struggle when they face stiffer competition. This stems from a lack of height and injuries.
2. Cupcakes - although noy substantially different than in years past
3. Weather - A very snow-filled December even by Milwaukee standards
4. Economy - I'd guess the walk-up traffic is down and attendance and excitement are closely correlated at the games themselves.
5. Student attendance- Since I'm not a student I can't speculate on why this may be, but there certainly seems to be a smaller amount other than for UWM and UW. I know that lesser compeitition usually has smaller crowds, but some this year have been really bad. Similar to those of my frosh and sophomore years in 96-98.
6. Buzz - He isn't solely without blame
Thanks for all the replies so far. I live in DC and was just wondering how Buzz was doing on the non-coaching part of selling the program.
Marquette is a unique place to coach, as it has to compete not only with a huge state university that almost everyone in the state supports, but also the Packers and the Bucks. Then there is the inevitable comparison to Al's personality. I went to MU from 87-91 so was there for Dukiet and O'Neill and lived in Milwaukee while Deane and Crean were running the program. Crean embraced Al McGuire's legacy the best, or at least seemed the most comfortable with it. I may be wrong, but I don't think Buzz will have as much of a burden to live up to Al as the others did, especially since Crean took MU to the 2003 Final Four. He will most likely be compared to Crean, fair or not.
So, how is Buzz doing on the radio show? Does he have a tv show too? Is he doing commercials for many businesses in town? Did he mingle with students standing in line for the Wisconsin game? I hear he is a nice guy, just wondering if he is embracing the salesman job that MU coaches have to do.
Quote from: RedWebster on December 22, 2008, 02:57:49 PM
Seriously?
What matters to me is that the players like him and passionate about his job and helping the guys. Maybe that wasn't the best word, but I don't give a crap about him trying to reach out to the fans. I want a good team with a coach that tries hard to win, and so far he isn't doing any worse than Crean in that regard.
Quote from: Marquette_g on December 22, 2008, 03:02:23 PM
4. Economy - I'd guess the walk-up traffic is down and attendance and excitement are closely correlated at the games themselves.
Make no mistake about it - the state of the economy is weighing on sports. Hell, half my family wants to "cancel" Christmas this year - and they all still have jobs! There's a general sense of worry out there - and people don't want to "waste" dollars on things that they don't deem necessary.
Here's a good article recapping the woes of the sporting economy:
http://www.forbes.com/business/2008/12/18/sports-economy-recession-biz-sports_cx_tvr_1218sportsecon.html
I'm not as excited this year either, but it has nothing to do with Crean. He never excited me that much anyway. In addition to reasons already posted,here are a few other reasons why;
1) No pre-conference tournament like Maui which MU's been in the past few years.
2) Hangover from the Stanford game. I don't know how valid this is, but that one hurt.
I think Buzz has tried to deflate expectations by consistently pointing out how small we are. Smart career policy but a buzz kill for the fans. Regardless this team has the talent to win and if Buzz doesn't the heat will be turned up.
Quote from: StillWarriors on December 22, 2008, 02:09:40 PM
I think any lack of excitement may be due to the fact that the team is so clearly limited in terms of its ceiling based upon the complete absence of an inside game. I suspect that if Otule and/or Fulce look like they can contribute significantly excitement will pick up. Let's hope.
I think you're on to something with this. The expectations game does have some weighing on how excited everyone gets. If people believe the team has a ceiling or they know exactly how everything will play out, they have a team that is barely meeting or falling below expectations, it reduces interest and attendance. I'd be making it a point to go to two or three games during winter break if we were exceeding all expectations with our play. It's just not something that draws interest. Take three years ago for example; interest rose dramatically when a team expected to do nothing was winning games.
Also consider that 90% of the most interesting/well attended home games have yet to occur. Plus the economy is a killer. Just not fun for a lot of people to bring the family when they don't have a job or might not next week; the "I'll have a better seat on my couch" line of thinking gets dropped more often.
Quote from: Stone Cold on December 22, 2008, 04:18:56 PM
I think Buzz has tried to deflate expectations by consistently pointing out how small we are. Smart career policy but a buzz kill for the fans. Regardless this team has the talent to win and if Buzz doesn't the heat will be turned up.
I agree with you. Crean might have been a PR demon, but it wasn't a buzz kill to the casual fan. Reading about how small we are, how Buzz just doesn't know how to solve our problems, how our players played "pathetic", not very exciting. It also plays into the whole expectations game.
One man's take... First of all I hated Crean. I thought he was an arrogant prick and the way that he treated so many people he was wearing out his welcome. And let's not forget that while he was successful, he was not so successful as to act the way that he did. calhoun is an A-hole but he has mutiple National titles and a top 5-10 team most years. crean did not and with the way he treated people the fact that he had 1 NCaa win in the last 5 years etc. was becoming an issue. he had burnt up most goodwill that people were willing to grant him.
Nonetheless, i too feel a maliase about the team. With me and i think alot of people just are not overly excited about, like others have said, watching the same movie for the 4th year in a row. Losing games we should win, bad turnovers and stupid shots especially by McNeal, playing really well at times and really poorly at times. finishing 11-7 in the BE, Losing first or second round in the BE tourney, sweating out a birth due to a few late games, and then a first round bow out in the NCAA tourney is a movie I have seen 3 times already.
Dont get me wrong I hope and pray we do better than that. But we are who we expected and i see nothing that will change this movies ending. It would be one thing if we had a new big guy that maybe showed promise last year or was a proven transfer that we could anticpate being a difference maker this year. Someone that would replace the hole in the middle thatCrean never would.
If we shoot real well and hold our end up on the boards we can be real good but we all know many nights we will get dominated in the paint and shoot the ball poorly and look ugly in a loss. Not that much to get excited for. Alot of nervous anticipation also that with the losses of Ous and Trevor we will be even worse in the middle. Not a whole lot to get excited about that either.
Boy I hope I am wrong, Crean really hamstrung this program with his inability to recruit size. I hope this group can really over achieve this year and I think next year our young team can take off on a good foundation laid by Buzz.
Economy is a huge factor. Even as a season ticket holder I have questioned going to some of the cupcake games and instead have offered the tickets for friends and family that are wanting to go to a game. Got to be worried about your cash flow.
Excluding the Chicago Invitational home games (only in one year, on a Monday or Tuesday night), but including the exhibition games, our OOC home attendance is actually up +1% this year--even though this is the worst December weather in like 50 years (two games were affected). Friends in the alumni club leadership in Milwaukee have told me Buzz actually calls them asking what he can do whereas TC was impossible to get a hold of and never returned calls. Buzz's deal is to be more personable, TC was on when the lights were on. Different styles for different folks...and different times.
I have only missed one home game, but the students have been on except for the CMU game where they were studying. The CSU-Pueblo game had a great student turnout. The alumni support for Buzz has been "wait and see", nit pick every misstep, etc. I got news: MU's alumni don't have a good rep-- "hard to please", "living in the past", and "unreasonable expectations". In reality, we are discernable and well educated consumers of hoops.
It would be a PR mistake for Buzz to come out overstated for a few reasons. 1) He can never live up to any hype this season considering the lean in MU made with the hire, 2) he was told not to be "the other guy"...that Bo and Crew will use that against you as will the alums who hated TC, and 3) that isn't Buzz's natural style--he believes it is about the kids which is why he is a great recruiter.
Quote from: AlumKCof93 on December 22, 2008, 04:12:54 PM
I'm not as excited this year either, but it has nothing to do with Crean. He never excited me that much anyway. In addition to reasons already posted,here are a few other reasons why;
1) No pre-conference tournament like Maui which MU's been in the past few years.
2) Hangover from the Stanford game. I don't know how valid this is, but that one hurt.
I know the weather wasn't anything to boast about . . . but wasn't the Chicago Invitational the very tournament of which you speak? Granted, perhaps UDayton & Northern Iowa isn't exactly UiLLinois, Duke, or Arizona... but in all fairness, we were in a tourney. It wasn't well publicized/covered in the media, but all the same.
How is buzz doing with respect to the coach-fan base relationship? Ok, I guess; I know he & some players from the team made an appearance at the Golden Eagle a few weeks ago. I don't see him doing those pre-game camera spots (although I am not getting to the BC as early as I did before), or gladhanding all the rabid student section fans. I think the jury's still out.