Is it possible that Cubillan is planning on leaving MU at the end of the year? With Buycks, Junior, Acker, and possibly Colvin or Snaer where does Cubillan fit? I know he was on the national team for a short time this past year, maybe he has offers in S. America to make some money and finish up school down there. Just something that popped into my head when I found out that Buzz wasn't done recruiting. Thoughts?
Once again, we should not be talking about individual players in such a context. Just not fair or proper. The practical matter is that things happen over time. Trying to guess what might happen is fruitless.
Yeah, its really random. We can make theories about anyone. I say we just hold tight til the recruiting scene really squares away. I was probably on the biggest "Snare Snaer" bandwagon and I think he will go to Missouri. If he goes there, he will play about 40 minutes a game. They have no talent. I think one four star in the last three years. I would be shocked if MU picks anyone else up for 2009. But then again, let's just wait.
GO MU
Interesting that Snaer's top teams appear to be Mizzou and Florida State. Both coaches are truly on the hot seat this season. Have to see how this situation plays out over time.
w/in the program, it is felt that MU has a 50% chance of signing Snaer. The thought is that Mizzou and FSU are the leaders. because of AAU coaching connections. What are they going to tell Snaer--if you come we will kick some one out? How is that going to sit w/ him?
Tough situation all around.
Is it rare for teams to over sign going into a season? Are they even allowed to do that? For example, lets say Colvin or Snaer commit to MU next week, then I imagine it would cause some confusion amongst the team right?
it actually happens quite frequently with top programs because they often have a lot of turnover on their roster with transfers unhappy with playing time and players leaving early for the NBA.
If Snaer is offered an over-booked scholarship, I hope it is with full disclosure that his scholarship is contingent upon a spot opening up.
If that is the case, I highly doubt Snaer will commit. Why would a top recruit like Snaer accept a conditional scholarship when he can go so many other places?
For the record, I understand the perceived need to over-book schollies and the current NCAA climate where such over-booking is accepted, but I dislike the practice.
Quote from: MUCam on October 29, 2008, 02:37:05 PM
If Snaer is offered an over-booked scholarship, I hope it is with full disclosure that his scholarship is contingent upon a spot opening up.
That's funny. If Snaer commits, worry nary a minute about a spot opening up.
Quote from: Nukem2 on October 29, 2008, 01:58:35 PM
Interesting that Snaer's top teams appear to be Mizzou and Florida State. Both coaches are truly on the hot seat this season. Have to see how this situation plays out over time.
Is Anderson really on the hot seat at Mizzou? He's only been there two years and at least has them competitive.
Quote from: Nukem2 on October 29, 2008, 01:58:35 PM
Interesting that Snaer's top teams appear to be Mizzou and Florida State. Both coaches are truly on the hot seat this season. Have to see how this situation plays out over time.
If you believe the rumors, Snaer is really being pushed by his AAU coach to pick one of those two, and the fact that the coach's job may not be stable does not matter as much as the fact that the coach is African American.
If Marquette65 is correct and there really was a 50% chance of landing Snear then I really would question why we gave away our last scholarship. Snear is a potential season changer in an area that (since Novak) we have been weak. To give that up for a power forward who is not likely to have a big impact until his junior year seems a bad trade. Some have talked about that offers could be made "if available". Is it possible that Roseboro is the guy that has accepted the "if available" offer leaving the guaranteed scholarship still waiting for Snear. After all it seemed like MU was Roseboro's solid first choice. Taking an "if available"offer may have been good enough for him.
Quote from: Pastor of Muppets on October 29, 2008, 03:32:18 PM
Is Anderson really on the hot seat at Mizzou? He's only been there two years and at least has them competitive.
Actually, Anderson was on a "hot seat" list in the past week. To date, his "40 minutes of hell" style of play has not yet caught on at Mizzou. His hope is that it will this year with all players being his recruits. Time will tell.
Quote from: MUCam on October 29, 2008, 02:37:05 PM
If Snaer is offered an over-booked scholarship, I hope it is with full disclosure that his scholarship is contingent upon a spot opening up.
If that is the case, I highly doubt Snaer will commit. Why would a top recruit like Snaer accept a conditional scholarship when he can go so many other places?
For the record, I understand the perceived need to over-book schollies and the current NCAA climate where such over-booking is accepted, but I dislike the practice.
If a player signs a letter of intent the scholarship is guaranteed for one year, unless he is not admitted to the university. So if we oversign on letter of intent day and everyone qualifies then someone else has to go. The only way you can give out a conditional scholarship is not to have the player sign a letter of intent. Given that Buzz is actively recruiting another guard you have to assume a current player is leaving or has the money to pay his own way. If Buzz already knows that a player is leaving, then he is not oversigning. There is always the possibility of Buzz making an Aker or Culliban a graduate assistant. They would get a scholarship for their education, but would not be able to play for the team.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on October 29, 2008, 01:30:29 PM
Is it possible that Cubillan is planning on leaving MU at the end of the year? With Buycks, Junior, Acker, and possibly Colvin or Snaer where does Cubillan fit? I know he was on the national team for a short time this past year, maybe he has offers in S. America to make some money and finish up school down there. Just something that popped into my head when I found out that Buzz wasn't done recruiting. Thoughts?
Didn't Crackedsidewalks say the same thing about Cubby last year about this time? And even though he was hurt he still was an integral player. I think Cubby will have a valuable roll on this team till he graduates.
Quote from: NCMUFan on October 29, 2008, 10:30:30 PM
Didn't Crackedsidewalks say the same thing about Cubby last year about this time?
Nope. Here is what I wrote back in March http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2008/03/look-back-with-eye-on-future.html (http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2008/03/look-back-with-eye-on-future.html):
David Cubillan: He was my pick to struggle this year, and he followed suit. After his 13 point effort in the win against Pittsburgh in February, Cubillan became one of MU's most ineffective players in the last month of the season. Cubillan scored a combined 14 points in MU's last eleven games, shooting 16% from the field (5 for 31) amidst declining playing time. With the emergence of Maurice Acker, the impending arrival of Nick Williams and Tyshawn Taylor, as well as a healthier Scott Christopherson it is difficult to see Cubillan contributing to this team next season.Obviously the world is a very different place right now for David Cubillan....and at the time it was not clear that DC needed surgery on both shoulders.
NY Warrior, I was refering to this Cracked Sidewalk post almost a year ago.
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2007/10/some-early-mu-predictions.html
October 4, 2007 post
Most likely to struggle: David Cubillan. With Maurice Acker in the mix, look for Cubillan to struggle with his role in a more crowded backcourt. Crean needs PGs who can run a north-south offense, even in the halfcourt. David is an east-west player when he's at the helm, unable to beat defenders off the dribble. How will he adjust?
Quote from: NCMUFan on October 30, 2008, 10:16:49 AM
NY Warrior, I was refering to this Cracked Sidewalk post almost a year ago.
http://www.crackedsidewalks.com/2007/10/some-early-mu-predictions.html
October 4, 2007 post
Most likely to struggle: David Cubillan. With Maurice Acker in the mix, look for Cubillan to struggle with his role in a more crowded backcourt. Crean needs PGs who can run a north-south offense, even in the halfcourt. David is an east-west player when he's at the helm, unable to beat defenders off the dribble. How will he adjust?
Right -- that's the original post that was referenced in the 07/08 season-wrap up that I quoted above.
A comparison of Acker and Cubillan in terms of their "net points" production for all games from BE on.
Both guys really mirrored team production, but starting with the Villanova game DC's net contributions fell off a cliff. Probably related to the shoulder injury.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee41/roblowe14/AckervsCubillan.png)
Awesome post, Henry Sugar.
I love the Cubillionaire. I had almost as much confidence in him shooting threes as I came to have in Lazar last year, then all of a sudden he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Something looked way off. In hindsight, he was obviously injured. I would take a healthy Cubillan over Acker any day because of the defensive intensity he brings to the table.
Quote from: NYWarrior on October 30, 2008, 08:31:28 AM
With the emergence of Maurice Acker, the impending arrival of Nick Williams and Tyshawn Taylor, as well as a healthier Scott Christopherson it is difficult to see Cubillan contributing to this team next season.
This goes to show how much player turnover there can be in just one off-season. Obviously a unique situation with TC leaving, but why would you stop recruiting until those LOIs are actually signed next month.
Quote from: TheManInGold on October 30, 2008, 03:00:56 PM
This goes to show how much player turnover there can be in just one off-season. Obviously a unique situation with TC leaving, but why would you stop recruiting until those LOIs are actually signed next month.
Bingo.
And despite his wonderful academic progress, let's also remember the summer threads that cautioned MUScoopers that Maymon may not qualify.
I love how we can't speculate on individual players but coaches can over-sign.
Also, shouldn't DJ be in Euro right now b/c his family is so broke, he has to go and b/c he's graduating in 3 years?
So what graduate program is he in this year and how did his family get cash?
Whoops, nevermind, TC left and so did the lies from his PR staff.
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on October 31, 2008, 08:38:46 AM
I love how we can't speculate on individual players but coaches can over-sign.
Also, shouldn't DJ be in Euro right now b/c his family is so broke, he has to go and b/c he's graduating in 3 years?
So what graduate program is he in this year and how did his family get cash?
Whoops, nevermind, TC left and so did the lies from his PR staff.
Great post.
he's actually working as an intern at WSSP. Don't know where DJ is finding time to do that though...that doesn't really help his financial situation though.
And despite his wonderful academic progress, let's also remember the summer threads that cautioned MUScoopers that Maymon may not qualify.
[/quote]
Buzz would still be recruiting Wilson, if he was worried about Maymon qualifying. The fact that he stopped recruiting Wilson should tell you that Maymon is going to make it.
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on October 31, 2008, 08:38:46 AM
I love how we can't speculate on individual players but coaches can over-sign.
Also, shouldn't DJ be in Euro right now b/c his family is so broke, he has to go and b/c he's graduating in 3 years?
So what graduate program is he in this year and how did his family get cash?
Whoops, nevermind, TC left and so did the lies from his PR staff.
As I recall, this was nothing but pure speculation largely played out on this message board:
Example here:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=6938.0
And here:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=6152.0
I cannot find any articles quoting Crean about the possibility of James playing in Europe, citing family finances, or suggesting that he wouldn't be coming back.
Meanwhile, I found this interesting thread:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=7770.msg62897#msg62897
Care to elaborate on what specifically you meant? Is this one of those "lies from his PR staff" as well?
It was insinuated on certain premium boards by numerous posters including some with a lot of access to TC. Did TC ever come out and say it? No but many people said it for him.
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on October 31, 2008, 09:03:30 PM
It was insinuated on certain premium boards by numerous posters including some with a lot of access to TC. Did TC ever come out and say it? No but many people said it for him.
And it was insinuated on THIS board by YOU.
So are you part of the lie machine, too?
No, I am though guilty of pointing out the absurdity of an all conf player leaving eligilbilty on the table. I also said there is a difference btwn being ahead of schedule and graduating early. I don't think I'm the only one who read about the DJ to Euro possibility last year and the speculation started by those who were in the know.
Quote from: bilsu on October 31, 2008, 03:45:51 PM
Quote from: Buzz's Buddy
And despite his wonderful academic progress, let's also remember the summer threads that cautioned MUScoopers that Maymon may not qualify.
Buzz would still be recruiting Wilson, if he was worried about Maymon qualifying. The fact that he stopped recruiting Wilson should tell you that Maymon is going to make it.
Good take. I just hope Maymon does qualify as the school year is about to reach it's halfway point in two months.
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on October 31, 2008, 09:47:09 PM
No, I am though guilty of pointing out the absurdity of an all don't player leaving eligilbilty on the table. I also said there is a difference btwn being ahead of schedule and graduating early. I don't think I'm the only one who read about the DJ to Euro possibility last year and the speculation started by those who were in the know.
DCK,
Just to be clear, you are unhappy with Tom Crean because of the speculation regarding DJ leaving early for Europe?
Not sure I'm connecting the dots.
Yes.
(shrug) ok.
I think you give Crean too much credit. I don't think he has the ability to control what people speculate or type on the internet.
He was oversigned last year (which is new to MU, but not new to the world of college hoops), so it created speculation on the internet about who would be gone.
Quote from: 2002mualum on November 01, 2008, 02:11:46 PM
so it created speculation on the internet about who would be gone.
Right, and some people in the know, who normally are very reliable sources of info speculated that DJ may go to Europe b/c he would a) graduate early and b) needed the money.
Am I taking crazy pills, am I the only one who read this stuff last year?
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on November 01, 2008, 03:37:20 PM
Right, and some people in the know, who normally are very reliable sources of info speculated that DJ may go to Europe b/c he would a) graduate early and b) needed the money.
Am I taking crazy pills, am I the only one who read this stuff last year?
The bothersome point here is that you're blaming Crean for something a) in which you were an active paritipant; b) was hardly secret; and c) lends itself to exactly the type of questions about financial need that arose.
Let's go back in time. State, on this board no less, posted the following:
Quote from: State on March 19, 2008, 11:55:20 AM
DJ needs the extra flow as HIS family recently got a little bigger.
Now there's a cryptic comment. I can't possibly figure out what he meant by this.
By its very nature, this wasn't a team secret known only to DJ and Tom Crean. My guess is that it was pretty common knowledge on the MU campus.
In fact, even YOU apparently knew all about it, becuase THIS was your reply to State (emphasis added):
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on March 19, 2008, 12:13:43 PM
I'm well aware. I still maintain his best move if he can't make the NBA is exhausting his MU eligibility.
Will & Dwyane made it work.
You were "well aware." Interesting.
In other words, you didn't just read speculation about Europe planted on a message board--you
knew about were well aware of
the underlying reason for that speculation.
Let's face it, the questions raised were the expected response to the situation. Consider ANY ordinary student in that same situation: He has new family expenses. He has enough credits to graduate. He is certain to have a well-paying job within two months. He has a chance--but no certainty--of a better job a year later. There is a possibility that he might not have any job offers in a year.
Do you really think people in general AREN'T smart enough to raise questions on their own about whether that kid MIGHT be inclined to take a job right away rather than come back for another year of school?
This wasn't the result of a PR campaign. This was people asking the normal questions about a particular situation.
SJS, you're proving one thing...you have a lot of time on your hands.
The search function makes these things rather efficient.
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on November 01, 2008, 05:07:16 PM
SJS, you're proving one thing...you have a lot of time on your hands.
Awww... c'mon dude.
You can't pull this one again.
You've used that on me before.
Again, I realize you think coach Crean is a self-promoting a**. However, I think you are trying too hard to pin some stuff on him.
I don't think he can control the internet.
Quote from: 2002mualum on November 03, 2008, 10:02:58 AM
Awww... c'mon dude.
You can't pull this one again.
You've used that on me before.
Again, I realize you think coach Crean is a self-promoting a**. However, I think you are trying too hard to pin some stuff on him.
I don't think he can control the internet.
DK is a man of strong opinion. And he knows enough of the program to be strong in that opinion. His words don't come lightly.
To be fair, there was a pocket of posters who were mouthpieces for Tom Crean. And for 8-12 months, the party line (myself included) involving DJ did include many of the things DK wrote earlier in this thread.
On the interesting side, that pocket of posters also seems to have become a mouthpiece for Buzz so, in essence, they are mouthpieces for the Marquette program which is always a nice thing to see. In the end, it is MU first.
Then again, that would be expected with the closeness of Crean's hand in the transition to Williams.
Quote from: nola03 on November 03, 2008, 10:19:24 AM
DK is a man of strong opinion. And he knows enough of the program to be strong in that opinion. His words don't come lightly.
To be fair, there was a pocket of posters who were mouthpieces for Tom Crean. And for 8-12 months, the party line (myself included) involving DJ did include many of the things DK wrote earlier in this thread.
On the interesting side, that pocket of posters also seems to have become a mouthpiece for Buzz so, in essence, they are mouthpieces for the Marquette program which is always a nice thing to see. In the end, it is MU first.
Then again, that would be expected with the closeness of Crean's hand in the transition to Williams.
My biggest beef here is that DK suggested that it was Crean's PR staff that spread the comments about James, when it is obvious with even a little bit of searching that the type of comments posted are not at all surprising given the background of the situation.
As he readily admits himself, he knew about the situation, and even posted his own opinion--and frankly, it wasn't surprising given the background, and certainly it wasn't the result of Tom Crean's PR staff.
Finally, I have a small objection to your use of the word "mouthpiece." I would prefer "Marquette fan." I don't understand why so many here decide that being a fan means impugning every intention of the administration, the athletic department or the coaching staff.
We've gotten to the point where merely stating the obvious (i.e James might have some incentive to leave after his junior year to play in Europe) becomes in the minds of some a nefarious PR plot on the part of Tom Crean.
The norm around here seems to be that one must assume the worst intentions on the part of anyone officially with MU or else subject onesself to personal attacks.
I supported Tom Crean because I believe when he was the coach his goal was to win, recruit players with good charachter, graduate them, win, and generate interest in the program. If his chocies of motivational speakers, showmanship at fan events, or interviews with national media were part of his effort, I see no reason to assume there were bad intentions behind it.
I support Buzz now for the same reasons--he wants good charachter players, he wants them to graduate, he wants the team to win, and he wants support.
Quote from: nola03 on November 03, 2008, 10:19:24 AM
To be fair, there was a pocket of posters who were mouthpieces for Tom Crean. And for 8-12 months, the party line (myself included) involving DJ did include many of the things DK wrote earlier in this thread.
I don't doubt this one bit. I remember the posts. In fact, I bet I posted in some of the threads.
I guess the question is: How is Tom Crean supposed to control this type of speculation? Was he making the posts?
I'm just not sure that "Controlling internet speculation" is a required skill for a college hoops head coach.
Quote from: Marquette84 on November 03, 2008, 11:29:37 AM
Finally, I have a small objection to your use of the word "mouthpiece." I would prefer "Marquette fan." I don't understand why so many here decide that being a fan means impugning every intention of the administration, the athletic department or the coaching staff.
Being a fan doesn't impugn any intention. There is a difference between a "fan" and a "mouthpiece". They both share the same passion but the former is usually in the dark on the insider aspects of the program; as for the latter, they do have some insight into the insider aspect of the program and typically their words reflect that status. That is the context in which I use the phrase.
2002--
Tom Crean didn't control the speculation. But it tended to start with him. If he drops a certain nugget of knowledge to a fan who is close to the program, that fan would likely leak it to others who are close to the program (whether through earshot or internet post). From there, the nugget is wrapped in a decidedly pro-MU flavor and sold on a plate to other Marquette fans.
This isn't anything that is singularly attributed to Tom Crean. In fact, it still occurs today at Marquette even though Crean is gone. Happens with every sporting team in every league around the world. The coach may not be controlling the conversation, but he started it.
Quote from: nola03 on November 03, 2008, 03:29:37 PM
Being a fan doesn't impugn any intention. There is a difference between a "fan" and a "mouthpiece". They both share the same passion but the former is usually in the dark on the insider aspects of the program; as for the latter, they do have some insight into the insider aspect of the program and typically their words reflect that status. That is the context in which I use the phrase.
2002--
Tom Crean didn't control the speculation. But it tended to start with him. If he drops a certain nugget of knowledge to a fan who is close to the program, that fan would likely leak it to others who are close to the program (whether through earshot or internet post). From there, the nugget is wrapped in a decidedly pro-MU flavor and sold on a plate to other Marquette fans.
This isn't anything that is singularly attributed to Tom Crean. In fact, it still occurs today at Marquette even though Crean is gone. Happens with every sporting team in every league around the world. The coach may not be controlling the conversation, but he started it.
Bingo.
Let me re-phrase my previous thoughts:
I don't think you can expect a head coach to control internet chatter because it's happening to every organization. I don't think there is a way to prevent it, and therefore it seems silly to try and single out a coach and blame him for it.
DCK clearly stated (in this thread) that he was unhappy with Crean because of the internet speculation regarding DJ. How is Crean any different from any other coach in his position? Posters love to speculate (whether they have insider information or not).
I just don't think you can blame a coach for that.
Blame Crean for a bad haircut, that's undeniable.
Don't blame him for internet chatter. The guy can't really control that.
Quote from: 2002mualum on November 03, 2008, 04:28:47 PM
Bingo.
Let me re-phrase my previous thoughts:
I don't think you can expect a head coach to control internet chatter because it's happening to every organization. I don't think there is a way to prevent it, and therefore it seems silly to try and single out a coach and blame him for it.
DCK clearly stated (in this thread) that he was unhappy with Crean because of the internet speculation regarding DJ. How is Crean any different from any other coach in his position? Posters love to speculate (whether they have insider information or not).
I just don't think you can blame a coach for that.
Blame Crean for a bad haircut, that's undeniable.
Don't blame him for internet chatter. The guy can't really control that.
What if a coach is allowing access in return for a positive spin or influence over a website? At the very least it reduces the credibility of such a website. At worst?
Quote from: dennycrane on November 03, 2008, 05:00:28 PM
What if a coach is allowing access in return for a positive spin or influence over a website? At the very least it reduces the credibility of such a website. At worst?
"Reduces credibility?"
We're talking about a MARQUETTE FAN SITE for crying out loud!
If a coach cannot count on HIS OWN FANS for positive spin, who can he count on?
Again, I have to question how somebody can claim to be a fan, but at the same time assume that everything positive that is ever said about us is either planted by the coach, nothing but PR "spin" or "sold on a plate."
Quote from: dennycrane on November 03, 2008, 05:00:28 PM
What if a coach is allowing access in return for a positive spin or influence over a website? At the very least it reduces the credibility of such a website. At worst?
Hmmm...
Well, a couple of thoughts here:
#1 I don't want to stick my head in the sand that it
couldn't happen, but I cannot confirm it. I really have no first hand knowledge or special inside information, so it's tough for me to make any sort of educated speculation on the dreaded "other site" and their relationship with Crean. I read that site occasionally, but I don't post their, and I'm not exactly up to date with the goings on.
#2 Even if Crean was giving those guys access to certain information, I'm still not connecting the dots as to how he was "spinning" specifically in the DJ situation.
MU was oversigned, fans were speculating on who was coming back on scholarship. What information was Crean leaking to make himself look good? How is it "spin" or to his advantage to have information about DJ going to Europe out on a website?
Quote from: Marquette84 on November 03, 2008, 05:26:20 PM
"Reduces credibility?"
We're talking about a MARQUETTE FAN SITE for crying out loud!
If a coach cannot count on HIS OWN FANS for positive spin, who can he count on?
Again, I have to question how somebody can claim to be a fan, but at the same time assume that everything positive that is ever said about us is either planted by the coach, nothing but PR "spin" or "sold on a plate."
Being a fan allows you to accept anything as the truth? That can hurt a program over the the long run. Sometimes what a coach wants you to believe may not be in the best interest of a program over the long haul.
Just out of curiousity -
Let's assume Crean some how masterminded this wonderful PR spin. What is so bad about the head coach wanting "a good spin" on his program? I just don't get the negative reaction.
Call him a used car salesman if you want to, but it takes a used car salesman to sell a used car. In this day and age, with recruiting being as cut-throat as ever (including tons of "negative spin" recruiting by other coaches), why wouldn't you want to always paint your program in the best light?
Crean was an over-rated recruiter. He was an under-rated, but not great, game coach. One thing is for sure though; the man was a great PR machine. No matter how slimy you felt it was - no matter how detestable you found his continuous self-promotion - it was something this program needed. Without Crean's "positive spin" on everything, including feeding positive information to the national media, to the local media outlets, and to the alumni base, I seriously doubt Marquette would have ascended to where it is today. Without all that self-promotion, we might just be DePaul.
I just don't get the complete digust with what the guy did. You can dislike the guy as a man, but you cannot deny the effect he had on MU hoops. The guy placed this program on the national map again. Deane may have been somewhat successful, with much less talent. KO, it could be argued, accomplished just as much as Crean did on the hardcourt and in the recruiting fields. But neither of those two created the interest in MU hoops, both locally and nationally, that Crean did. Crean accomplished that by tireless self-promotion.
My biggest worry with Buzz, over any worries about coaching, is whether he has the personality to sell this program on a daily basis the way that Crean did. When you are a small, private Jesuit school, you need the gears on the great PR machine constantly grinding away.
Quote from: MUCam on November 04, 2008, 08:41:23 AM
Just out of curiousity -
Let's assume Crean some how masterminded this wonderful PR spin. What is so bad about the head coach wanting "a good spin" on his program? I just don't get the negative reaction.
Call him a used car salesman if you want to, but it takes a used car salesman to sell a used car. In this day and age, with recruiting being as cut-throat as ever (including tons of "negative spin" recruiting by other coaches), why wouldn't you want to always paint your program in the best light?
Crean was an over-rated recruiter. He was an under-rated, but not great, game coach. One thing is for sure though; the man was a great PR machine. No matter how slimy you felt it was - no matter how detestable you found his continuous self-promotion - it was something this program needed. Without Crean's "positive spin" on everything, including feeding positive information to the national media, to the local media outlets, and to the alumni base, I seriously doubt Marquette would have ascended to where it is today. Without all that self-promotion, we might just be DePaul.
I just don't get the complete digust with what the guy did. You can dislike the guy as a man, but you cannot deny the effect he had on MU hoops. The guy placed this program on the national map again. Deane may have been somewhat successful, with much less talent. KO, it could be argued, accomplished just as much as Crean did on the hardcourt and in the recruiting fields. But neither of those two created the interest in MU hoops, both locally and nationally, that Crean did. Crean accomplished that by tireless self-promotion.
My biggest worry with Buzz, over any worries about coaching, is whether he has the personality to sell this program on a daily basis the way that Crean did. When you are a small, private Jesuit school, you need the gears on the great PR machine constantly grinding away.
The larger problem is those "media" outlets who allow themselves to be spun. They have no credibility. If they are accepting "favors" to spin things the way a coach wants how can they be taken seriously? If the "media" is charging customers for information that is intentionally slanted they are doing their customers a disservice.
You mean like the Capital Times? Or maybe WIBA?
Quote from: MarkMiller on November 04, 2008, 09:40:26 AM
You mean like the Capital Times? Or maybe WIBA?
Are you saying the spin the UW company line? Do not allow for dissenting opinions? To some extent that is true. The audience for both outlets is too large and diverse to accept stories fed to them from the UW's athletic office. I would suggest you read some things on the football program from the last week or listen to call in radio on WIBA. It is not very positive.
The same could be said for Rosiak at the J-S. He would like to put a positive spin on all MU stories. The audience is too large and diverse to allow for only one sided coverage. If things should go bad his coverage would be expected to reflect this.
Internet websites are a different matter. The audience is smaller and more singular in their thoughts. Much easier to manipulate and control. In some ways the existence of this site reflects this. My impression is that in part this site is the result of dissatisfaction with other options.
I've lived in Madison long enough to know who spins the UW company line. And, you follow Marquette close enough to know who spins the MU company line. Most of the Madison sports media is very pro UW, which it should be. The one who doesn't seem to be afraid to ruffle a few feathers from time to time is Tom Oates of the Wisconsin State Journal.
I don't have a problem with media members who are positive 90 to 95 percent of the time. I read Mike Lucas and Rob Schultz and enjoy the coverage of Matt Lepay on WIBA.
As for fan Websites, most put a positive "spin" on stories and information. The guys who run the sites at Illinois, Michigan State, Iowa, Indiana and Wisconsin do this on a consistent basis along with the guys who run MU sites.
People who run FAN websites can run them the way they see fit. If fans don't like the way they are run, they can start up their own Website (see Buckyville and BadgerBlitz).
Todd Rosiak does a great job covering Marquette basketball. His blog and stories are first rate. I think Schultz does a great job covering UW. But I don't see much difference between the two. Fact is, both UW and MU have enjoyed great success over the past decade or so and thus their coverage is largely positive.
Gary Parrish comments on oversigning in college basketball.
http://gary-parrish.blogs.sportsline.com/mcc/blogs/view/6271764
Quote from: MUCam on November 04, 2008, 08:41:23 AM
Just out of curiousity -
Let's assume Crean some how masterminded this wonderful PR spin. What is so bad about the head coach wanting "a good spin" on his program? I just don't get the negative reaction.
Call him a used car salesman if you want to, but it takes a used car salesman to sell a used car. In this day and age, with recruiting being as cut-throat as ever (including tons of "negative spin" recruiting by other coaches), why wouldn't you want to always paint your program in the best light?
Crean was an over-rated recruiter. He was an under-rated, but not great, game coach. One thing is for sure though; the man was a great PR machine. No matter how slimy you felt it was - no matter how detestable you found his continuous self-promotion - it was something this program needed. Without Crean's "positive spin" on everything, including feeding positive information to the national media, to the local media outlets, and to the alumni base, I seriously doubt Marquette would have ascended to where it is today. Without all that self-promotion, we might just be DePaul.
I just don't get the complete digust with what the guy did. You can dislike the guy as a man, but you cannot deny the effect he had on MU hoops. The guy placed this program on the national map again. Deane may have been somewhat successful, with much less talent. KO, it could be argued, accomplished just as much as Crean did on the hardcourt and in the recruiting fields. But neither of those two created the interest in MU hoops, both locally and nationally, that Crean did. Crean accomplished that by tireless self-promotion.
My biggest worry with Buzz, over any worries about coaching, is whether he has the personality to sell this program on a daily basis the way that Crean did. When you are a small, private Jesuit school, you need the gears on the great PR machine constantly grinding away.
Ding a ring ding ding. A small, private school in Milwaukee, Wisconsin is considered the boondogs fror 95% of this country. You need someone to constantly prime the pump. Make it bigger than life. That's what Al did, that's what KO did, that's what Crean did. All had their detractors but they all got it done.
Personality sells and has to at a place like MU. We'll know in a few years. Fingers crossed.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 04, 2008, 11:40:27 AM
Ding a ring ding ding. A small, private school in Milwaukee, Wisconsin is considered the boondogs fror 95% of this country. You need someone to constantly prime the pump. Make it bigger than life. That's what Al did, that's what KO did, that's what Crean did. All had their detractors but they all got it done.
Personality sells and has to at a place like MU. We'll know in a few years. Fingers crossed.
KO, Al & TC all had to some degree build a program, reingorate the fanbase etc. All Buzz has to do is win and he can keep the fan base. TC, KO & Al had to sell from day one b/c the product on the floor left a lot to be desired. Buzz inherits a different program. What he needs to do is obviously win but just as importantly keep recruiting on par or better than TC. Deane didn't figure out recruiting until it was too late. He lost a lot of KO's momentum. If Buzz keeps recruiting like he is now, he doesn't need to worry as much about the selling. Winning sells in Milwaukee (see 3 million fans at Miller Park in 2008 or constant sell out at Bucks games in 2001-2002).
Quote from: MarkMiller on November 04, 2008, 10:44:36 AM
I've lived in Madison long enough to know who spins the UW company line. And, you follow Marquette close enough to know who spins the MU company line. Most of the Madison sports media is very pro UW, which it should be. The one who doesn't seem to be afraid to ruffle a few feathers from time to time is Tom Oates of the Wisconsin State Journal.
I don't have a problem with media members who are positive 90 to 95 percent of the time. I read Mike Lucas and Rob Schultz and enjoy the coverage of Matt Lepay on WIBA.
As for fan Websites, most put a positive "spin" on stories and information. The guys who run the sites at Illinois, Michigan State, Iowa, Indiana and Wisconsin do this on a consistent basis along with the guys who run MU sites.
People who run FAN websites can run them the way they see fit. If fans don't like the way they are run, they can start up their own Website (see Buckyville and BadgerBlitz).
Todd Rosiak does a great job covering Marquette basketball. His blog and stories are first rate. I think Schultz does a great job covering UW. But I don't see much difference between the two. Fact is, both UW and MU have enjoyed great success over the past decade or so and thus their coverage is largely positive.
Internet websites are specifically what I am referring to. They are run as those who operate them see fit. Some have little credibility because they lack objectivity. That can be the price they pay for access to the programs they cover? Most are not real journalists nor do they act as such.
Quote from: MUCam on November 04, 2008, 08:41:23 AM
Just out of curiousity -
Let's assume Crean some how masterminded this wonderful PR spin. What is so bad about the head coach wanting "a good spin" on his program? I just don't get the negative reaction.
Call him a used car salesman if you want to, but it takes a used car salesman to sell a used car. In this day and age, with recruiting being as cut-throat as ever (including tons of "negative spin" recruiting by other coaches), why wouldn't you want to always paint your program in the best light?
Crean was an over-rated recruiter. He was an under-rated, but not great, game coach. One thing is for sure though; the man was a great PR machine. No matter how slimy you felt it was - no matter how detestable you found his continuous self-promotion - it was something this program needed. Without Crean's "positive spin" on everything, including feeding positive information to the national media, to the local media outlets, and to the alumni base, I seriously doubt Marquette would have ascended to where it is today. Without all that self-promotion, we might just be DePaul.
I just don't get the complete digust with what the guy did. You can dislike the guy as a man, but you cannot deny the effect he had on MU hoops. The guy placed this program on the national map again. Deane may have been somewhat successful, with much less talent. KO, it could be argued, accomplished just as much as Crean did on the hardcourt and in the recruiting fields. But neither of those two created the interest in MU hoops, both locally and nationally, that Crean did. Crean accomplished that by tireless self-promotion.
My biggest worry with Buzz, over any worries about coaching, is whether he has the personality to sell this program on a daily basis the way that Crean did. When you are a small, private Jesuit school, you need the gears on the great PR machine constantly grinding away.
Best post ever
Personality can try to sell any program, but winning is the be all, end all. The prime example is Gonzaga. It has many similar characteristics to Marquette - small school, small city, Jesuit, basketball-focused. Yet, even in a smaller conference they remain in the spotlight with Mark Few, who isn't exactly the dynamic car salesman. He wins games, the program wins games.
Personality does not HAVE to sell any program. Maybe to get the program rolling, personality helps. But to keep it going, you don't need personality; you need to WIN.
Quote from: murambler on November 04, 2008, 01:58:54 PM
Personality can try to sell any program, but winning is the be all, end all. The prime example is Gonzaga. It has many similar characteristics to Marquette - small school, small city, Jesuit, basketball-focused. Yet, even in a smaller conference they remain in the spotlight with Mark Few, who isn't exactly the dynamic car salesman. He wins games, the program wins games.
Personality does not HAVE to sell any program. Maybe to get the program rolling, personality helps. But to keep it going, you don't need personality; you need to WIN.
Excellent point,
I was a Crean supporter and I'm very appreciative of what he did for the program but there's a reason that he had to rely on his PR skills...he wasn't the greatest in-game coach and in all honesty, he wasn't the greatest recruiter but he utilized his strengths and his connections to keep the MU program prominent.
Quote from: murambler on November 04, 2008, 01:58:54 PM
Personality can try to sell any program, but winning is the be all, end all. The prime example is Gonzaga. It has many similar characteristics to Marquette - small school, small city, Jesuit, basketball-focused. Yet, even in a smaller conference they remain in the spotlight with Mark Few, who isn't exactly the dynamic car salesman. He wins games, the program wins games.
Personality does not HAVE to sell any program. Maybe to get the program rolling, personality helps. But to keep it going, you don't need personality; you need to WIN.
Few and TC aren't really comparable, because Few wasn't the one responsible for getting the ball rolling the same way TC was. When he took over, the ball was already in motion, Monson had just led them to an Elite 8 before bolting for Minnesota. Monson and Dan Fitzgerald before him had won multiple conference championships and conference tournament championships in the 5 previous years. Crean took over a team with a losing record.
Plus, Spokane is not like Milwaukee. It's a much smaller city, and there's no professional sports around that you have to compete with. After Deane's last few years, MU needed someone to get the program re-energized and bring fans back. It needed the showmanship and all the tactics that TC brought that Deane was never able to bring. Gonzaga already had the fans because of the work that Fitzgerald and Monson had done.
Quote from: murambler on November 04, 2008, 01:58:54 PM
Personality does not HAVE to sell any program. Maybe to get the program rolling, personality helps. But to keep it going, you don't need personality; you need to WIN.
Quote from: bma725 on November 04, 2008, 04:17:50 PM
Few and TC aren't really comparable, because Few wasn't the one responsible for getting the ball rolling the same way TC was. When he took over, the ball was already in motion, Monson had just led them to an Elite 8 before bolting for Minnesota.
I'm glad you agree. Personality has a role in getting the ball rolling, but winning is what keeps it rolling.
Quote from: murambler on November 04, 2008, 04:47:44 PM
I'm glad you agree. Personality has a role in getting the ball rolling, but winning is what keeps it rolling.
+1. Fr. Wild is more charismatic than Dean Smith or Coach K. Just Win Baby!
Quote from: DamonKeysContactLens on November 04, 2008, 12:07:09 PM
KO, Al & TC all had to some degree build a program, reingorate the fanbase etc. All Buzz has to do is win and he can keep the fan base. TC, KO & Al had to sell from day one b/c the product on the floor left a lot to be desired. Buzz inherits a different program. What he needs to do is obviously win but just as importantly keep recruiting on par or better than TC. Deane didn't figure out recruiting until it was too late. He lost a lot of KO's momentum. If Buzz keeps recruiting like he is now, he doesn't need to worry as much about the selling. Winning sells in Milwaukee (see 3 million fans at Miller Park in 2008 or constant sell out at Bucks games in 2001-2002).
Well all Deane had to do was win, too. He did for the first 4 years but attendance and pub went down, down, down. Hank Raymonds won as well, but the program was not covered nationally like it was under Al.
I hope you're right.
Quote from: murambler on November 04, 2008, 01:58:54 PM
Personality can try to sell any program, but winning is the be all, end all. The prime example is Gonzaga. It has many similar characteristics to Marquette - small school, small city, Jesuit, basketball-focused. Yet, even in a smaller conference they remain in the spotlight with Mark Few, who isn't exactly the dynamic car salesman. He wins games, the program wins games.
Personality does not HAVE to sell any program. Maybe to get the program rolling, personality helps. But to keep it going, you don't need personality; you need to WIN.
Gonzaga is the only game in town in a state that isn't a basketball state. MU is in a fairly big city and isn't even the most popular team in that city having to compete with UW-Madison. MU is always going to have to do a little extra to get the casual fans to notice and the media.
Winning absolutely is critical, no one is denying that. But at MU, will winning be enough? It wasn't for Deane in his first 4 years and it finally bit him in year 5 when he didn't have a winning record.
Again, I hope you are right. But looking historically at MU, their most successful years have been with a coach who won and was dynamic (AL, KO, TC). There were other years where they won, but it didn't sustain itself (Hank, Majerus, Deane).
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 04, 2008, 08:04:42 PM
Well all Deane had to do was win, too. He did for the first 4 years but attendance and pub went down, down, down. Hank Raymonds won as well, but the program was not covered nationally like it was under Al.
I hope you're right.
Fact is Crean's attendance numbers rose and fell with his winning records/anticipation of his recruiting classes too. Ebbs and flows there with KO's record. Hank was caught between eras where sell outs where more important and where TV revenue took over. While the pr helps for sure, nothing replaces winning and recruiting hype--as we see in the pro sports where manager or coach tunrover is correlated to win/loss records. NFL coaches aren't even making it through half a season any more. There were calling for Gillepsie's head early last year at Kentucky.
The article on MU recruiting Chicago stated that both Colvin and Smith probably will not decide to spring. Given that it appears only Snaer would cause MU to oversign.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 04, 2008, 08:08:31 PM
Gonzaga is the only game in town in a state that isn't a basketball state.
You're helping to prove my point, Chicos. Gonzaga consistently draws national attention while playing in a state that isn't even a basketball state, in a conference that isn't even a power basketball conference, in a gym that is 3 times smaller than the Bradley Center.
Marquette has a bigger population base to draw fans from, are a member of the best basketball conference in the country, and have awesome basketball facilities; the tools to sustain its success are in place. All MU has to do is win.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 04, 2008, 08:08:31 PM
Winning absolutely is critical, no one is denying that. But at MU, will winning be enough? It wasn't for Deane in his first 4 years and it finally bit him in year 5 when he didn't have a winning record.
Sure, Deane won his first 4 years but the apparent success was tempered by the fact that the majority of the wins were against lackluster Conference USA competition and a handful of unsexy names. I don't know about some, but I would much rather be beating the likes of Syracuse, Connecticut, and Georgetown, rather than UNC-Charlotte, UAB, and Southern Miss. Now, if Deane had turned MU into King of Conference USA (a la Memphis) and consistently competed for national championships, I think it would be farely safe to say that Marquette would have constructed its own Deane Dome.
Quote from: MuMark on November 04, 2008, 11:27:34 AM
Gary Parrish comments on oversigning in college basketball.
http://gary-parrish.blogs.sportsline.com/mcc/blogs/view/6271764
Almost foreshadowing to this story where Billy Donovan is running off players!
http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/11085408
It was stated by many others that oversigning is a fact of life in college BB.
Recruiting is the life line of a program and I like Buzz's approach with it.
Kids these days can be fickle and unless there's a signed LOI its unfortunately become common place to hear of kids backing out. Add to that, coaches have also evolved/regressed when it comes to sticking with commits. Its just the nature of the business these days and for better or for worse, Buzz and several other coaches are simply building in contingency plans for whatever may happen down the line when they over sign/continue recruiting/"run kids off"/etc....
Quote from: murambler on November 05, 2008, 09:46:15 AM
You're helping to prove my point, Chicos. Gonzaga consistently draws national attention while playing in a state that isn't even a basketball state, in a conference that isn't even a power basketball conference, in a gym that is 3 times smaller than the Bradley Center.
Yes, but Gonzaga sticks out because they have no competition in the state. They have an easier time rising to the top because of their God awful conference and the fact they are the only game in town. MU is like Georgia Tech in many respects. A very good program, but tough to get love in it's own city let alone regionally or nationally because of all the other things going on.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 06, 2008, 12:51:37 PM
Yes, but Gonzaga sticks out because they have no competition in the state.
Lorenzo Romar consistently brings in top 25 recruiting classes to washington. and with bennett staying at washington state, i would say Gonzaga actually has it tougher than MU in regards to recruiting in state.
Quote from: dwaderoy2004 on November 06, 2008, 12:57:14 PM
Lorenzo Romar consistently brings in top 25 recruiting classes to washington. and with bennett staying at washington state, i would say Gonzaga actually has it tougher than MU in regards to recruiting in state.
They may have competition recruiting wise, but part of what Chico's was talking about was competition for the entertainment dollar.
Gonzaga has no competition in terms of vying for entertainment dollars within it's own city, at least not in the same way that MU does. UW is in Seattle, four hours away, and most UW fans aren't as concerned with basketball as they are with football. WSU is over an hour away, and isn't exactly a place with a large enthusiastic fan base. The only major pro sports teams are in Seattle as well. Gonzaga only has to worry about things like the Spokane Indians, a minor league baseball.
And that's only the sports entertainment things going on, Milwaukee has a lot more cultural things going on as well.